Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Midsize Sedans 2.0

1388389391393394544

Comments

  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    I drive between Daytona and Orlando on a regular basis and have seen two Mazda 6s this year - one red and one white. (FWIW - I think they are the sharpest looking of the midsize sedans on the outside, but once you open the door the party is over.) I have seen more Ferraris, more Lambos, and more Audi 8s than I have seen Mazda 6s. I'm beginning to wonder if m6user is not only a mazda salesman, but if he's related to akirby the Hyundai salesman.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited October 2013
    I have seen more Ferraris, more Lambos, and more Audi 8s than I have seen Mazda 6s. I'm beginning to wonder if m6user is not only a mazda salesman, but if he's related to akirby the Hyundai salesman.

    First, I think it's kinda cool to drive something you don't see all the time on the road, e.g. the Camcordfumaltima. One of the cars in my stable is a 2004 Elantra GT hatchback. I don't see many of those on the road, either, despite their being made (for that generation) for six years. It doesn't bother me at all. I don't see too many Kia Rio5 hatches either... no problem there either.

    Second, I think you meant to say "akirby the Ford salesman." ;)
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    edited October 2013
    We are shopping for a new car. Our thoughts so far - just ours - not looking to trash anyone or be trashed by anyone. Looked at the mazda 6 - beautiful until you open the door. Camry - cheap interior, but ruled it out due to the partial offset crash test failure. Accord - nice, but they have Honda transmissions in them and I know better than to go that route (had 3 replacements in our 2000 accord in less than 90k miles) and know the history of Honda's auto transmissions (also read many complaints about the new cvt and wind noise). Fusion - overpriced for what it is and didn't think much of the design and disliked the interior even more. We have been thinking of expanding our search and were thinking Taurus - until we saw five of the worst ten cars rated by consumer reports were fords. Haven't looked at the Avalon, but believe it's on the same platform as the camry and although not tested in the partial offset crash test, we feel there is no reason to think it any different from the camry. Would not consider a GM or chrylser. Tried the Altima, but it constantly lugged (like the complaints on the accord) and the airbag light came on indicating no airbag for the passenger in each of the three that we drove. Liked the optima and sonata, but the front passenger seat is too low (lower than other cars IIRC). May look at the genesis sedan, but think we'll wait for the new ?2015? before making a decision. No decision yet, but in no hurry.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You didn't mention some other mid-sized cars, e.g. Passat (especially nice with the TDI), Legacy (CR's most reliable mid-sized car, plus AWD). But based on your remarks above, likely none of those would satisfy you either.

    Maybe your best bet is to learn how to drive a stick and get an Accord LX or Sport with the 6MT. As you may know, Honda makes one of the best manual transmissions in the business.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,252
    How about a review of your impressions of your car?
    I want to take advantage of a rare opportunity of an owner of a new 6 for us. ;)
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    No, not even close. I'm just retired military who happens to stick up for Mazda once in awhile. You know, stick up for the little guy sort of thing. I've defended Camry too on this forum in times past even though I've never owned one. Just had lots of friends and relatives that have and loved them. They are certainly not my cup of tea but for many people they are perfect.

    It seems whenever anybody is actually faced with facts and reality they are quick to accuse someone of having a secret agenda like "oh, he must be a XXX salesman". How childish is that. I like Mazdas but I also own a Honda product and a Toyota product.
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    Your posts make it seem like you are a salesman or a big fan. Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but that was not the intent.

    @backy - I owned two VWs. The only thing worse than the first one was the second one. I think they should come with a compass that points to the nearest repair shop. I don't need a strike three on that. I actually like the subarus, but I live in Florida and the AWD would be useless to me. And on the manual tranny - wife would have no interest in one and from what I've read Honda's manual trannys, although smooth shifting, seem to have their share of problems too - particularly 3rd gear for some reason.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OK, here's your ideal solution then: get a Sonata or Optima (your choice), and get a custom e.g. Recaro seat to replace the too-low OEM passenger seat, so it can be adjusted higher. Heck, get one for the driver while you're at it, too. Would cost a lot less than going upmarket with something like the Genesis.

    You're welcome. :)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Not a salesman, just a loyal and knowledgable Ford owner trying to dispel myths and lies.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think you meant to direct this to wayne21, he's the one who called you a "salesman".
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Believe me, you did not hurt my feelings but you should be sorry for accusing people when you have no clue. There are a lot of people that post here that are big fans of certain brands. Next time just ask...don't accuse.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    The avalon is on a different platform than the Camry...doesn't look like it's been tested against the "small overlap front" yet.

    Why not the Impala...never driven or even sat it but from appearances it looks impressive.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Me too. One of the reasons I love my 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH is that thy are extremely rare cars. My wife's Pilot & my 328xi are all over the place.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • dudleyrdudleyr Member Posts: 3,469
    Teach your wife to drive a stick. ;)

    Honda MT's don't have 3rd gear problems - where did that come from. Anecdotal, but I have an Integra with 232,000 miles and an Accord with 168,000 miles. Both transmissions are fine. Of course the 2013 is also fine, but it only has 10,000 miles.

    Also the EX has a stick as well, not just the sport and LX.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    Tried the Altima, but it constantly lugged (like the complaints on the accord) and the airbag light came on indicating no airbag for the passenger in each of the three that we drove.

    While this might be true, ya gotta admit it sounds like an exaggeration for potential effect.

    Or maybe ya better get the better half back on a little more groceries for awhile.. ;)
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,146
    A reporter would like to speak to a new Ford Fusion buyer. If you have purchased a Fusion in October, please send your daytime contact information to pr@edmunds.com no later than 8 a.m. PT/11 a.m. ET Friday, 11/1/13. Bonus points if you traded out of a Toyota Camry or a Honda Accord!

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    edited October 2013
    When I experience a problem and read on the internet that others are having the same problem I don't think of it as an exaggeration for potential effect. I see it as being prudent to avoid a known. As to the wife, the most she ever weighed was 127 lbs and that was the at the peak of her pregnancy 30 years ago.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    127 and pregnant...wow...that's what my 10 year old weighs...and that's average for his football team :)
  • I agree that the Mazda 3 will be the volume seller, and I know the CX-5 is doing quite well. I don't think that Mazda engineered the new 6 from the ground up to not make a profit though. It is crucial that all three vehicles sell well for Mazda to be stable. I want to see Mazda to continue to build great cars and to resist being bought out by competitors.
  • A full six of the top ten cars sold in America are mid-size sedans. Another 2 are in the top 20. That is a whopping 40%! My Optima is in 13th, and even the Chrysler 200 made the list. It is unfortunate that the Mazda 6, Passat, and Avenger did not make the list. (well not so much the Avenger). I hope Chrysler has a more competitive mid-size in the pipeline.

    http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/10/usa-20-best-selling-cars-september-2013.htm- l
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How do you know Mazda isn't making a profit on the Mazda6?

    From what I see in my area, Mazda dealers aren't offering big incentives on the new Mazda6 yet. But you can get HUGE incentives to buy an Optima or Sonata or Accord or Camry or Fusion or Malibu or 200 or... just about everything else in this class.

    If Mazda can keep the profit margin per car up there, they can make a profit on the car even with a low sales volume. To make $1 million, you can for example sell 10,000 cars for a $100 profit each, or 1000 cars for $1000 profit each. It's $1 million either way.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2013
    I never said it wasn't profitable. I said I have not seen many, and posted Septembers sales figures which explains why.

    I don't know if Mazda is making a profit on the 6 or not. Mazda had to completely develop the car from the ground up, which costs a fortune. So, they may be making a profit per car, but not as a whole. It is fortunate that the CX-5 and the 3 share the platform

    I am pulling for Mazda. It has a sedan rated number 1 by Car & Driver and Automobile Magazine, beating all comers, it delivers the Zoom-Zoom drivers have been promised, yet sales seem to not reflect the goodness of this car.

    The one area where the mags agree is that the well-put-together interior doesn't deliver the technological bang that some of the others do. However, my Optima has a similar driver - friendly dash layout that is built around the driver, just like the 6. I dunno; I mean wouldn't you think that the 6 would be outselling my car by now guys?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2013
    Only the LX and EX Optima have a fixed height passenger seat. You will have no problem with the SX and SX-L. They do cost more though, but this is a great time of year to negotiate a great deal. Even better on the day after X-Mas.

    It depends on what interior colors you get on the Mazda. Personally, I really like the Mazda's interior as a drivers car. It is all business and not much flash...but it is very well put together. I drove the Touring about 7 months ago, and after that what I wished for was that my car steered like the 6. Also, the 6 chassis was less "rubbery" feeling than the Optima. On the other hand, my 2.4 liter felt stronger than the Mazda's in the mid range. Both my car and the Mazda have 6 speed autos. Here is Mazda's GT interior: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1303_midsize_madness_day_four/photo_- - 09.html

    I like the Accord too, and even though it has a few strips of plasti-luminum trim the rest of the interior is otherwise very nicely done. Here is the Sport interior:
    http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1303_midsize_madness_day_four/photo_- - 01.html
    Also loving the Sport's dual pipes, 18" rims, and the wing, but not the CVT. I like the blue color on the Accord hands down.

    Tough choices.
  • gee22gee22 Member Posts: 82
    It's not $1 million either way. Not even close. You are forgetting the hundreds of millions of dollars of capital you would need to build 10,000 cars, just to make a measley $1 milliion profit. You wouldn't even get a Mazda3 as your severance package if you were the CFO :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It was an over-simplified example of how you don't need to sell 400,000 cars of one model per year to make a profit on them. I'm a summa [non-permissible content removed] laude MBA grad and know how companies make money. I just didn't think I needed to go into the excruciating details in this case, since this a discussion about cars and not corporate finances.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2013
    Frankly we need to stop the personal attacks. I am all for a healthy discussion, and at times tempers will flare. There are about 6 or 8 of us that represent the board, and no one will post if they see us attacking each other. We could use a few newbies.

    Also...

    We are all salesmen! How many cars do you think we have sold just by posting facts figures and experiences? At least you guys would get a real dealership. With Kia, I would get stuck in an old Suzuki/Geo trailer behind backy's Hyundai dealership....My business cards would have "KIA" taped over "GEO" with my name scrawled in pencil. Claaaaasssssyyyy!

    So...

    With that said, have a good weekend!! :shades:
  • gee22gee22 Member Posts: 82
    Need not get so defensive. I would have framed it more like say, comparing GM with Subaru. GM sure didn't make it up in volume :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Hey, don't forget my Kia and Mazda dealerships! I don't want those guys to feel left out! :)

    And btw, it's a really nice Kia dealership, no Suzuki/Geo trailer here. It's a former Saturn place, pretty hi-tech in appearance. Seems to fit well with the European styling theme Kias have at present.

    But I don't have my Mazda6 right now. Some unmentionable walloped it while it was sitting in a parking lot. Hit and run of course. So I'm in a Cruze rental for awhile. Pretty decent little car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You're right. No need to get defensive when someone pretty much calls you an idiot. Shame on me.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,252
    From Ford press release:

    Fusion sales of 21,740 vehicles jumped 71 percent year-over-year, making it the car’s best-ever sales performance for October.
    The strongest growth for Fusion is in the west region of the U.S., with retail sales up 77 percent. In the eastern region of the country, Fusion retail sales are up 65 percent.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Camry 29,144
    Accord 25,162
    Altima 21,785
    Fusion 21,740
    Sonata 19,872
    Malibu 15,746
    Optima 11,492
    200 8,348
    Passat 7,258
    Avenger 5,406
    Mazda6 3,100
    Legacy 3,090
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Camry: 348,134
    Accord: 307,264
    Altima: 271,303
    Fusion: 248,033
    Sonata: 172,574
    Malibu: 170,696
    Optima: 135,548
    200: 111,207
    Passat: 91,522
    Avenger: 85,005
    Mazda6: 35,632
    Legacy: 36,441
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,027
    Several have commented that when they open the door of the 6 it's all over. I am not so sure.

    There are several interiors right now that all seem like variations on the same theme. The Fusion, the Sonata, and to some extent the Altima all have some similar themes. Accord and Camry are unique, some may think in a good way. Optima is also unique, but not necessarily in a good way. The Mazda strikes me as a more traditional or conservative design, but not necessarily a bad one. I saw one with the light-colored leather and quite liked it overall. The main thing for me that works against it is that the styling leaves the rear compartment feeling claustrophobic, with small window openings. But points to Mazda for offering a brighter trim choice than the ubiquitous and depressing all-black, and not copying the current dash design cliche.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't see what the angst over the Mazda6's interior is either. The dash design reminds me of some rather pricey European cars. Maybe the materials quality isn't on par with those cars, but the Mazda6 starts in the low $20s, not the $40s.

    But I also don't see any similarity whatsoever between the interior design of the Sonata and that of the Altima. Fusion, maybe, but executed quite differently.

    Camry is definitely unique... but NOT in a good way, IMO. I'm not crazy about the Accord's dash either, but at least it's better than the Camry's. I like the design of the Optima's dash. It's a bit retro, but nicely executed.

    The Mazda6 isn't the only current mid-sized car with small rear windows. The Sonata in particular is guilty of that, but I think a light (tan) interior alleviates the claustrophobia. The Fusion's are pretty small too. Doesn't seem to be hurting sales too much, as previous posts attest.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I find it amazing that Toyota continues to sell so many Camrys. Look at the numbers. YTD, it takes Toyota about 5 weeks to sell as many Legacys as Subaru does all year.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    Mazda doesn't have to production volume to sell as many 6's as Kia sells optima's, maybe that can change a bit when the new factory comes on line for the 3. I am pretty sure they are happier with the 3100 cars this year than they were with the 1900 or so they sold last year this time. Would they like to sell more, probably, but they are building them for the whole world at the same plant so they are production limited at the moment at least.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,252
    Camry sales are pretty much flat from last year.
    The competitors are up, so that means it's losing market share.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    All I said was that you found this issue in each of three testers! If all three exhibited this issue (which, yes, I have heard of previously) I stand by my initial reaction which struck me as an exaggeration. Consider what the odds are that you found three in what I interpret to be a relatively short period of time. If this issue was widespread enough to support your findings, I would think that Nissan would have been all over this to a much greater degree. Certainly any dealership that allows three testers in such a short period of time to allow an issue as serious as this to reveal itself, is negligent at the very least.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    edited November 2013
    Same here. I have my issues with Mazda on some levels, but I respect their out-of-the-box thinking with engine design. I'm staying tuned to see longevity reports on the SkyActive tech, as one example.

    I like that they aren't associated with Ford any more. Ford was an anchor.
  • wayne21wayne21 Member Posts: 259
    After experiencing the airbag light and lugging (stuttering) in the Altima I went to the Altima forums. Those were two of the major gripes people had about their altimas and there was no shortage of those complaints. Interestingly enough, Nissan had a recall on the airbag light indicating no airbag for the passenger, but many of the people experienced the very same problem after the recall repair. Two of the altimas that I drove had build dates that were after the date set for the recall - when the "fix" was applied at the factory. I think they have a problem on their hands that they haven't fixed and I'm not remotely interested in driving a car with no airbag for the passenger. The lugging (stuttering) is a complaint for the 4 and 6 cyl altimas - just as it is for the cvt on the accord forums. I'm a cash buyer and it takes me a while to save $25-$35k so I'm picky. I acknowledge that. But if I'm going to spend that much money I feel I can be picky. Perhaps I will move up a class of cars to the genesis sedan or something comparable. Wife and I were talking about this this evening and I mentioned the Avalon. We are in our mid 50s and my wife said she wasn't remotely interested in an Avalon because it's an old person's car. How old, I asked. Someone in their 70s was her response. Having lived in Florida for a long time I think her statement has a lot of credibility. We're not in a hurry, but when we find what we want we'll know it and we'll buy it.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Member Posts: 2,345
    I've struggled with women's reasoning the better part of my (similar to yours) years. If the Avalon had the content that ticked enough boxes on my list and I could afford its premium, I wouldn't consider for a moment that maybe the car appealed to a more mature demographic. That aspect is so low on my list it's a non issue...but that's me.

    I hope you both find something you'll be happy with and I respect the hard earned cash aspect in your pursuit.
  • gee22gee22 Member Posts: 82
    backy, the smiley car was meant to indicate a joke. It was not my intention to offend you. I'm sorry.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited November 2013
    Now that Ford's Flat Rock plant is making Fusions at full tilt, all 4 of the top manufacturers have the capacity to build at least 400,000 units of their midsize cars a year, which translates to about 33,000 a month. Toyota can actually build up to 475,000 Camrys a year, which is almost 40k a month. Since no one sold 33,000 last month, we can assume that inventories are rising, and that during the last two months there's going to be a big blowout and some huge numbers.

    It seems certain Camry will keep the lead, and I'm guessing total sales will be about 410,000 for the calendar year.

    I think the Accord will close the gap somewhat, and by year end sales will almost get to 400,000.

    My guess is that Altima and Fusion will end up somewhere around 350,000.

    And next year will be even more competitive....
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • vservser Member Posts: 48
    I'm interested in the Avalon, and I'm in my 40s. It's a very solid car. I guess I'm old spirited.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    edited November 2013
    The Avalon is based on the Camry, which was rated "Poor" in the IIHS small overlap crash test.

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/automotive/1914162-toyota-needs-greatly-improve-t- heir-designs.html

    "Toyota has a long way to go with crash test performance in the new "small overlap" crash tests from the IIHS. Their cars are doing well in the moderate overlap test, but in the small overlap, their cars are doing terrible. Honda has good performers in this test, as well as Subaru. The bad part is that some of Toyota's latest designs are performing poorly... the new Camry and new RAV4 are included... I am not sure how well the Avalon would perform.

    Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/automotive/1914162-toyota-needs-greatly-improve-t- heir-designs.html#ixzz2jUeaIVdF
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2012/12/honda-shines-toyota-falls-in-latest-i- ihs-crash-tests.html

    Honda Shines, Toyota Falls in Latest IIHS Crash Tests

    The 2013 Toyota Camry sedan and Prius v hybrid (above, right) failed a new crash test by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety that simulates a frontal impact overlapping a small portion of the car — say, piling into a tree from your left headlight. IIHS announced today its test of 18 model-year 2013 family cars. It's the largest yet for the so-called "small overlap" frontal test that many luxury brands failed in August 2012.

    At the other end, the Honda Accord sedan and nearly-defunct Suzuki Kizashi (above, left) earned IIHS' top score, Good; 11 other cars — including the Accord coupe — earned Acceptable ratings. The IIHS rates cars Good, Acceptable, Marginal or Poor. Of the 18 cars tested, the Toyotas scored Poor, but the Hyundai Sonata, Chevrolet Malibu and Volkswagen Jetta sedan scored Marginal.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,252
    Your information about the Avalon is out of date. That type of stuff happens a lot on this forum.
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    Toyotas have performed poorly on the IIHS test. That's not out of date. Although the Avalon hasn't been tested, it would not be likely to do well either.
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Member Posts: 6,311
    But as you suggest, explorerx4, the current Avalon is based not on the Camry but on the Lexus ES, which also failed the IIHS test and got a Poor rating. So we're both right, in a sense....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iQYwXqb4G0
    2018 Acura TLX 2.4 Tech 4WS (mine), 2018 Honda CR-V EX AWD (wife's)
  • You're wife is right on the previous Avalon being driven by mostly older Americans. It is because of the cushy ride it was known for plus the Toyota reputation for reliability. Toyota's Buick Le Sabre.

    This is an entirely different Avalon, with a taut ride and beautiful lines I think anyone would be happy to own it.
    Unfortunately $35k will not get you an Avalon that will have many of the niceties that a loaded mid-size would offer, but I would definitly choose an Avalon over an Altima. I think Nissan is kind of like Hyundai quality wise.

    Also, a car like the Optima will offer a sportier ride and great gobs of torque from the turbo motor. Your wife will not always be with you. It is YOUR money, so buy the one you will want to keep turning and looking at when you walk away in a parking lot.
Sign In or Register to comment.