Midsize Sedans 2.0

kdshapiro · June 2007

Not talking about IQS. Talking about overall customer experience. Lexus is about as bullet proof as they come over the life of car. In my opinion, that is far from the case with Kia vehicles. Most vehicles these days have a high IQS with the first 90 days of ownership. There are exceptions to the rule of course, but the fringe cases are not the rule.

Everybody will believe what they want and can have some statistic to support their assertion.

elroy5 · June 2007

Do you really think that if the tranny goes out on a Honda vehicle which is out of warranty, standard or extended, they'll replace the tranny for free?

Yes, it has happened many times. If you have proof that maintenance was done, and it is an obvious defect, Honda will work with you. Honda customers know what "good will" repair means. That's how they keep customers coming back.

jd10013 · June 2007

Actually, I tend to believe you. never had to take the civic in for anything, but after they way they handled the odometer thing, deffinitly impressed me.

for those who don't know, honda cars were accused of misreading milage. and, even though the varations in actual mileage vs. odometer milage were less than the margin of error set by the government, honda willingly, without being forced, extened all waranties and made restitutions to people who leased and had to pay milage charges.

baggs32 · June 2007

honda willingly, without being forced, extened all waranties and made restitutions to people who leased and had to pay milage charges.

They were sued. I think they had a pretty good reason to give the money back don't you?

Why must everyone spin Honda's actions into being "for the greater good"? They are a company in business to make money, not save the world. :sick:

jd10013 · June 2007

yes, they were sued, but there was no indication they would loose. the amounts their odometers were off were well within what the government allowed. Personally, I don't see how they could have lost. basically, the gvt says you can be off +/- 1 mile per 100 and the honda odo's were off +/- .5 miles per 100. those arn't exact numbers, but thats how it shook out. But honda decided they would voluntarily make restitution.

FYI, Nissan was sued for the same thing, and has chosen to fight it in court.

and read some of my posts. though I have nothing against honda, I am by no means a honda homer. I prefer nissan myself, but don't mind giving honda props where its due.

elroy5 · June 2007

Why must everyone spin Honda's actions into being "for the greater good"? They are a company in business to make money, not save the world.

You don't seem to understand. :confuse: Honda sees "Good Will" repairs as an investment, in Repeat Customers. When you loose customers, you loose sales down the road. You can tell which companies didn't see it as an investment 10 years ago. The same ones who are loosing money now.

bhmr59 · June 2007

Honda may have also made a business decision that it was less expensive to fix, whether needed or not, than to get tied up in lengthy litigation.

Out of court settlements are made all the time, particularly dubious claims for injuries resulting from car accidents. If an insurance company can "buy out" of a claim for $2,000 rather than spend a minimum of $1500 fighting a case they could lose, they'll 'buy out" most every time.

neteng101 · June 2007

Ford only knows how to sell trucks and Toyota's ruining their party slowly - they can't sell midsized sedans or even cars to equal Toyota/Honda or even come anywhere close. :P

I'm not in the market for a truck, and if I was, I'd get a Tundra. Still amazed at how silent and smooth my Honda Accord V6 runs - effortless power. :shades:

jd10013 · June 2007

Ford only knows how to sell trucks and Toyota's ruining their party slowly

yes, but trucks out sell cars, have since the 90's. and toyota could one day seriously cut into them, but they have a loooooong way to go. The new tundra is nice, but it doesn't even come close to what a F-350 can do. there is a huge gap between what a ford truck and a toyota truck can do.

ford could very easily survive as a truck company. hell, they practicly are now.

and both toyota and nissan scrubbed their plans for Heavy duty/super duty versions of the tundra and titan.

elroy5 · June 2007

Do you actually think Ford can survive on only heavy duty trucks. Not a chance.

lilengineerboy · June 2007

Reving a warmed engine with good oil pressure isn't going to hurt anything, thats why the oil is there. Once it gets to proper temp, your pistons are gliding on sheet of warm oil. It is basically a zero wear environment. If an engine is never rev'd, the piston may go microscopically higher in the cylinder than it is used to, and the carbon deposits can build up in the cylinder walls and stop the piston or chip the piston ring. Either way, its not pretty but I haven't heard of a case of this on a modern engine with modern gas.

Dropping the clutch isn't as hard on the clutch as riding it, but its harder on the rest of the drive-train and suspension components. Shock loading every gear and shaft in the system isn't particularly helpful. Just watch amateur drag night (racing, not cross-dressing) and watch for the broken drive shafts and transmissions and suspension components.

You can use machinery, just try to have some respect for it and be mindful of what you are asking it to do.

neteng101 · June 2007

Have you checked out the prices of oil lately *cough* like today? :sick:

One day all Ford will be is just selling 250/350s and Econovans to businesses, not consumers. :lemon:

Mullaly should have stayed at Boeing - their stock is through the roof and they are kicking Airbus like crazy. Ford's got no Dreamliner either... and even Jag's on the chopping block.

scape2 · June 2007

"Ford Fusion didn't meet my needs, but that doesn't mean it was an inferior vehicle. This, coming from a Honda owner."

Yes!@ Thanks, finally a good statement.. I can live with that. The Fusion didn't meet your needs, nor what you were looking for. I can say the same for the Accord or Camry, which is why I chose the Fusion.

scape2 · June 2007

"Maybe some people have reached the point where they expect even more than excellent from everything. They won't tolerate even the slightest quirks,etc,regardless of what/where/why."

I agree, Honda/Toyota owners I believe let a little more go because of the quality reputation. Ford/GM are under one heck of a microscope. One little rattle.. and wammo!@ The vehicle is junk, or lacks refinement... :shades:

akirby · June 2007

I'd get a Tundra.

I guess you didn't hear that they've got 20 confirmed camshaft failures on the Tundra 5.7L truck engines. They knew about it in FEBRUARY yet chose to continue selling them.

scape2 · June 2007

I guess you missed the latest.. Ford just won 5 quality awards from JD powers.. Beating out Toyota.. Looks like Mullaly is doing something right at Ford. :shades:

scape2 · June 2007

Like Mazda 6 is going to get a bit larger for 08/09 model. I wonder what the engine choices will be? I would have grabbed a 6 but I felt the back seats were cramped.

scape2 · June 2007

where all the Nissan Altima owners are?? I am very surprised there aren't more in this room full of Honda/Toyota/Ford owners.. :confuse:

akirby · June 2007

As bad as the Honda and Toyota cheerleaders are and as much as I like Ford, your posts are just as bad.

Can we stop discussing who's better and just focus on the cars themselves?

zzzoom6 · June 2007

I wouldn't be surprised anyway with all the baseless sniping and very little about the cars themselves... so I'll post more pics!

jd10013 · June 2007

They're out driving their cars. and they're very fun to drive. :P

kdshapiro · June 2007

Really? I'm underwhelmed with the 2.5. It's definitely just ok. Haven't driven the 3.5 but I'm would tend to believe it's more of the same with a bigger engine.

The Legacy is the most useful car overall in this class. It has AWD, long cargo area, optional turbo. The only problem with it, is the cabin is a bit cramped for my tastes.

Mazda to me is to small as a family sedan. In my area a lot of kids drive them, probably because they can be had for a song.

jd10013 · June 2007

Really? I'm underwhelmed

to each his own

kdshapiro · June 2007

I just think the whole package is sort of blah, including the drive. I'm not really a Nissan fan. I did however own multiple Nissans' in the past. (However my owners experience left me cold).

ilikecars23 · June 2007

Very nice pic of the Mazda6. Every time i see a Mazda6 i cant help but admire the incredible tight body panel fit on the vehicle. Im aware most modern sedans boast excellent fit and finish, but the 6 has been out for some time under the current design, which is aging quite well, still looks very sharp and athletic. Cant wait to see what Mazda has planned for the 08 model, im sure it will be a very sharp vehicle, as most of Mazda's current lineup is looking impressive.

goodegg · June 2007

As bad as the Honda and Toyota cheerleaders are and as much as I like Ford, your posts are just as bad.

Great stuff.

urnews · June 2007

where all the Nissan Altima owners are?? I am very surprised there aren't more in this room full of Honda/Toyota/Ford owners.

I did notice that the Altima now has one consumer review and received all 10s and 9s. Obviously that is one happy and satisfied owner. However, one review does not a consensus make.

benderofbows · June 2007

"Yes! Thanks, finally a good statement.. I can live with that. The Fusion didn't meet your needs, nor what you were looking for. I can say the same for the Accord or Camry, which is why I chose the Fusion."

Hey, I've said all along that Fusion was on my short list, but I just like the Accord better for personal reasons. I've maintained that it was/is a competitor.

I went out on the local cycling club bike ride this morning, and noticed 4 or 5 new Fusions way out there in the country (aka Ford Land). In one driveway, next to the big Ford truck, was one of the new Fusions. At the end of the driveway was an 03-05 Accord, with "For Sale" signs on it. Fusion is winning some buyers away!

benderofbows · June 2007

Nice Mazda6. The hatchbacks are cool. Keep the pics coming, they keep the forum interesting.

Who was it that put the trailer hitch on? Jd? I've been thinking about doing that myself.

jd10013 · June 2007

for some reason the altima reviews were deleted. there were close to 200, then for whatever reasons they deleted them. then it got back up to about 8 or so, and were deleted again

have no idea why. Perhaps one of the mods can answer this?

urnews · June 2007

I just noticed the Sonata reviews are now at zero.

pat · June 2007

No reviews have been deleted. What's listed at the top is the number of reviews for the current model. When a new model is released, the previous year's reviews are no longer current but they are available just by clicking on the links.

captain2 · June 2007

where all the Nissan Altima owners are??
when I'm not trying to tone down all the Fusion blog, that would be what I am ,a very satisfied purchaser of 3 Altimas and a Maxima, 2 older 4 bangers and an 03 3.5 (the Maxima had a 3.0). It is from Nissan that my personal bias towards great engines/drivetrains comes.
Really like the new Altima but admit to finding the new CVT a little disconcerting. It is strange though that with as many as they sell, that we don't see some 'blog' on this car as well. It is certainly something that is 'blogable'. Don't know what the sales stats are in my area (Texas), but down here I seem to see more of them than Camcords! And yes, CR does have the new Altima tied for top spot in the fiercely competitive midsize sedan segment with the older Accord, but that may change with the new Accord due out in a few months. We'll see...

jd10013 · June 2007

Oh, I see what you did. but why have the 2007 reviews been moved off the front page when the 2008's haven't hit the market yet? and why is that only done for the altima?

jd10013 · June 2007

Well, the CVT deffinitly takes some getting used to. Having driven nothing but MT's for the last 18 years, and there's that pesky break in period (almost have to fight the damn car to keep the speed and rpm down, It almost wants to push itself) it was a month or two before I really got used to it. But once I did, I began to realize just how amazing that thing is.

As for the blogs, don't know about them, but the enthusiast sites are pretty active.

zzzoom6 · June 2007

strange thing is, is that I'm not seeing a lot of the new altima around. in the last couple months I've only noticed two of them. I wonder if the cvt is slowing interest... if people find it feels too strange, it'd be hard to plop down 20k on one.

pat · June 2007

In the list above it's been done for the Sonata as well, and the 08 Altima has indeed hit the market.

moparbad · June 2007

Is that an i or de-badged s?

zzzoom6 · June 2007

Thanks! Yeah, every time I walk out to find my car in a parking lot, I think that it still looks really nice vs it's peers, even if it's a car designed 5 years ago. It just has a nice flow to it. I agree with backy who said that the newer mazda6's have a bit more of a refined look since they toned down some of the sharper ground effects, but it still has the typical muscular mazda curves.

The 08 has me pretty excited too, especially hearing what they may do to bump up the power. I just hope they don't make it too big and make it feel too bloated and boat-ish. Right now, passenger space is perfectly adequate if just a bit snug, but the handling and balance is great for a passenger car. I spent 20 minutes riding in the back seat of a friend's mazda6, and I was perfectly comfortable with plenty of legroom and headroom. But I get the sense that with all the other cars in this class getting bigger, the dye has been cast for the 6 to maybe be a bit less sleek like it is now, and be a bit more muscular in the next gen.

zzzoom6 · June 2007

yeah, it's a debadged "s" - I took off the mazda logos and the v-6 badges. I also took off the bumper guards on the doors to try to give the profile a bit more of a clean, sleek look. Nothing major as far as mods go, but just some little details to make my car a bit more unique than Mazda6's already are.

maxamillion1 · June 2007

I read somewhere that Texas is one of the few states in the U.S. where Nissan outsells Honda and Toyota...must still be true. I'm going to look for that article.

I notice in Atlanta that Nissan are pretty abundant as well, but so are Hondas and Toyotas.

In South Carolina. Toyota in particular rules.

ilikecars23 · June 2007

In North Carolina, i see more Camrys than anything else, and the rest of the midsizers as follows in order from most popular to least:

Accord, Sonata, Altima, Fusion/Milan, Mazda6, G6, Optima, Aura.

goodegg · June 2007

Accord, Sonata, Altima, Fusion/Milan, Mazda6, G6, Optima, Aura.

I'm in NC too, but Sonata third behind Camry & Accord? I'd put the Altima and the Fulan ahead of the Sonata. Then the rest. I see minimal Mazda 6s and Optimas.

urnews · June 2007

Just based on sightings, I'd have to say the Camrys and Accords dominate the mid-size sedan market in Salisbury, MD, followed by Altimas and Sonatas.

Fusions and Milans are not commonplace at all. Which, as the owner of a 2007 SEL AWD Fusion, is kind of nice. The Fusion's bold, distinctive looks still stands out in a crowded field. It is nice to have a great car that is different from the "herd."

baggs32 · June 2007

You don't seem to understand. Honda sees "Good Will" repairs as an investment, in Repeat Customers.

Going by that they should have replaced our driver's power window track 3 months after the warranty expired ($400+ out of our pocket), the shocks at 30k miles, the muffler at 35k miles, the clunking spring in the right rear (they never did "reproduce" that one to fix it) and several other electrical and poorly crafted items in our '96 Civic. But alas, they didn't. Maybe Civic owners aren't important enough for their "good will"? The brake pads kept wearing out about every 12k miles no matter what kind we put on too. I understand that that's not necessarily their fault though.

h, and the catalytic converter's heat shields both rusted off not long after the warranty wore off (the years came long before the miles) and their advise to us was "not to park in grass or dry leaves". I should have done just that and let the thing burn to the ground.

I'd still buy another Honda, but I'll never put them up on a pedestal like the media and other folks do.

maxamillion1 · June 2007

Of about 500 people...I was the second person to get an Altima...now there are at least 10...which is amazing considering how well the Camcords sell in my area.

I think in major cities you'll see quite a bit of Sonatas and even Altimas and Camrys because they sell so many to fleets. Here the new Camry dominates...period.

dudleyr · June 2007

In central SD Camrys and Accords are fairly rare. They are outnumerd nearly 10 to 1 by Suburbans. :surprise:

Sad state of affairs really.

neteng101 · June 2007

Accords used to be really dominant here in NJ until the new Camry came along. Now there's Camrys galore. There used to be a ton of Altimas too but I haven't seen as many of the redesigned ones.

The Fusion's bold, distinctive looks still stands out in a crowded field.

The old Camry was bland and boring. The new Camry is a lot more bold and distinctive, and IMO, front ugly. The Fusion is back ugly to me - rice-a-roni lights and plain exhaust tips on the ones I seem to see (only the SEL has chrome tips). And the redesigned Altima has taken bold and distinctive to a whole new level.

kdshapiro · June 2007

I feel the same about my ex-Ford, which shortly after the warranty expired started to have tranny issues and sunroof problems. Ford wanted charge me over $1000 to diagnose these problems, not including the repair. After two vehicles they don't get a third chance no matter how many JD Powers awards they get.

elroy5 · June 2007

I'm sure the "good will" depends on whether or not you bring the car to that dealer for maintenance, and the dealer service manager's willingness to work with you. The dealer will not just offer you good will service, you have to ask for consideration. If it's a common problem, you have a shot. I have not received a good will repair on my 2 Accords, but then I don't bring the car to the dealer for maintenance, and there was only one repair done at the dealer since I bought the first Accord in 91.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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