Midsize Sedans 2.0

jeffyscott · July 2007

...it does not even make the list of models that are supposed to be the subject here?

There are a lot of vehicles in this category that aren't listed at the top. There is only room to list nine.

As far as I'm concerned, any vehicle in this class is on topic here.

Didn't really mean anything by that comment, other than I thought it was an amusing way to make the point that the Sebring is so bad that it is not discussed at all here. Maybe this is something everyone can agree on...that the Sebring is the worst in class :shades:

.

backy · July 2007

Save $5000-10,000 and settle for something in the top 15-20? Or pay around $25k for something like a Sienna, Odyssey, Avalon, or maybe an Azera? Sounds good to me!!

pat · July 2007

That's cool. It just bugs me that in a class this broad we can only list nine of the relevant vehicles. I guess I need to make the point every now and again that we really aren't limited to that specific list, just to the class itself - and I think we all know what vehicles fit and what don't.

But then again, we only seem to ever discuss three, four, on occasion five of them, so it doesn't really matter then, does it? :shades:

backy · July 2007

Just saw a review of the Sebring vs. G6 vs. Mustang convertibles in C/D. Sebring was last. Again. G6 came out on top, due to its superior [non-permissible content removed]. (Uh, need to read the review to see what that means.)

jeffyscott · July 2007

Maybe, if you want to mix things up some, you could send a couple of the more popular ones off to another forum for a head-to-head discussion and ban them here

. A Fusion vs. Accord discussion, for example, could divert a lot of posts...of course, that would leave Mazda6 fans (like myself) free to extol its virtues here, while the Accordians would be banned :shades:

.

andres3 · July 2007

You don't need stability control with the lighter, 4 cylinder Honda Accord, it's light enough to have excellent handling, and not strong enough to get you into "too much" trouble.

louiswei · July 2007

Does the 4-banger Accord come with traction control?

backy · July 2007

Yessireebob, anything the Accord doesn't have it doesn't need. Got it.

So when Honda added standard side airbags and curtains to the Accord across the line mid-way through the current generation, why did they do that when the Accord did very well without them for many years?

I wonder what you'll say when Honda makes ESC standard across the Accord line--which is inevitable.

andres3 · July 2007

Now your exaggerating.

If the Accord doesn't have something, it's for a reason, just like the 140HP Civic doesn't have the limited slip differential of the 197 HP Civic Si.

It would be like putting a spoiler on an Elantra..... oh wait, Hyundai's done that too!

It would be like putting 245/40R18 wide big tires on a Sonata; it doesn't need it. Now put those on a sports car, and you'll get some nice traction and handling.

Kirstie_H · July 2007

Let's change them all occasionally just to drive members crazy.

kirstie_h
visiting host
keeping up the mantle of "evil hostess..."

backy · July 2007

Any car benefits from ESC. The only reason it's not on the Accord I4 is to keep its cost down relative to the competition. Same reason Hyundai doesn't offer ESC on the Elantra in the U.S. ... yet.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Any car benefits from ESC.

Oh lets not start up with that discussion again. :lemon:

pat · July 2007

Good thought. But a) I already carry the mantle of evil hostess without making any special effort, just ask the people here

, and b) they are already crazy, aren't they? :P

Just kidding, just kidding, just kidding!!! We is ALL crazy and we is ALL evil, yes?? :shades:

benderofbows · July 2007

As a 2007 Accord LX 5-speed owner for 5 months and 6k miles now, I can respond to some of the recent comments about the Accord.

Interior plastics- as targettuning mentioned, "soft touch" plactics do have a downside. While the Accord's plastic feels wonderful and doesn't scratch very easily, it has taken a few slight marks from my Labrador which the "hard" plastic in my old Ford easily shrugged off. It is a tradeoff between comfort and durability.

Traction control (4 cylinder)- this isn't really necessary once you get used to the car. I've gotten the hang of launching quickly but cleanly on dry surfaces, but wet surfaces are much harder. Basically, all most traction control systems do is cut power when wheelspin is detected, something I can do myself. Limited slip would be nice and would help much more, but also isn't necessary in this car.

ESC (4 cylinder)- I've tested the handling probably as far as I ever will and found it to be very satisfactory. However, I could see the value in having ESC there "just in case." I had a 1991 Mazda 626 that did not have ABS, and got myself into a situation which ABS would have likely saved me from.

targettuning · July 2007

You are correct if the Accord doesn't have something it is for a reason and the reason is... MONEY. They are cheaping out, leaving off useful..but non government mandated(yet)safety features. One can get a MUCH better equipped sedan for less. Same goes for the Civic. They are both priced at the ragged edge (upper edge)for their size class. Wave the Honda "H" at consumers and they are like Pavlov's dogs slobbering to buy one based on previous reputation (deserved or not). I did. Same for used car buyers who would rather buy a used Civic or Accord with expired or nearly expired warranty (I know, never would be needed) and X amount of miles than a new "something else" that may have more comfort and safety features, no miles and long warranty (I know it probably will be OVER used). Bah!

benderofbows · July 2007

"You are correct if the Accord doesn't have something it is for a reason and the reason is... MONEY. They are cheaping out, leaving off useful..but non government mandated(yet)safety features."

Well, why did it take so long for Ford and Nissan to make ABS standard on the Fusion and the Altima? A few posters here have said that some consumers prefer NOT to have ABS. While I would not have forgone ABS on the Accord to save a few hundred bucks, I also would not have wanted to pay a few hundred more for traction control, either.

I might have paid a few hundred more for ESC, but that is speaking for myself and others may feel differently.

andres3 · July 2007

Well, you have to remember that certain things in life are definite, and will happen no matter what.

You might not ever need or use ABS. You certainly might not ever need or use ESC/ESP.

You will always have peace and comfort of mind everyday you drive your Honda, knowing full well it'll never leave you stranded.

You will always enjoy the quicker acceleration up the freeway on-ramp and the more comfortable seats and interior quality. You will always enjoy not having to feel the car leaning at a big angle every time you take a turn at higher speeds. You will always enjoy superior transmission smoothness and fuel economy.

Lets not overlook things that benefit you everytime you drive vs. things you may or may not ever need or use.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Traction control (4 cylinder)- this isn't really necessary once you get used to the car. I've gotten the hang of launching quickly but cleanly on dry surfaces, but wet surfaces are much harder. Basically, all most traction control systems do is cut power when wheelspin is detected, something I can do myself. Limited slip would be nice and would help much more, but also isn't necessary in this car.

Wow, so what you are saying is knowing how to drive reduces your need for electronics that drive for you?

lilengineerboy · July 2007

You will always have peace and comfort of mind everyday you drive your Honda, knowing full well it'll never leave you stranded.

This might be real or imagined, but the placebo effect is definitely measurable. Alas, in my case this was not to be, with the Accord being our record holder for number of times on a hook.

andres3 · July 2007

You sure some domestic vehicle manufacturer factory worker didn't put sugar in your tank of that Accord?

targettuning · July 2007

Same reason, auto manufacturers fall into two basic categories. Those who voluntarily give consumers all the latest safety features without having to check option blocks to upgrade to the "primo super bling" model to get them (if available at all) or arm twisting by Uncle Sam. An example would be Hyundai. And then there are those who resist to the bitter end and money, aka profit, is usually the reason. Looks like Ford, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan, among others, might be examples of those

benderofbows · July 2007

Every manufacturer is going to have some lemons. I also admit that the quality gap does appear to be closing.

Hyundai is one I have been really impressed with lately, from reading reviews and reports plus having driven an Azera. However, they still have major problems convincing the public of their quality and adding value behind their brand name.

From my experience and the experience of my immediate family, what makes the most difference between Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus versus some other makes is how the manufacturers and most dealers stand behind their products. I can speak on behalf of Honda and Toyota in that they really want you to be a satisfied owner.

I can't say the same for Ford, once again based soley on my personal experience. I don't have any experience with Hyundai.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

You sure some domestic vehicle manufacturer factory worker didn't put sugar in your tank of that Accord?

While my results might not be typical:
Pretty sure...the fuel system...well except the main fuel relay that is designed to fail before 80k...has been fine. The radiator, suspension system (upper control arms, sway bar links), brake system (master cylinder, clutch slave) and engine electrical system (3rd distributor) have had issues though.

I would say after 10 yrs/100k or so you are on borrowed time, so stuff that happens after that isn't the car's issue.

On the up-side, 30 mpg in mixed driving on the last tank ain't so bad. And again, I don't think the car is that bad or anything, its just fun when the Honda sales guys would come over to help me out of my "unreliable Ford" when I was there to pay for the towing on the Honda.

The Contour did leave me stranded once, for a $400 waterpump at 120k. Had this been a Honda, it would've had at least 1 $800 timing belt service by then where they would replace it anyway.

benderofbows · July 2007

Hyundai is not reducing their profit margins by including all of these features out of the goodness of their hearts; they are doing so as a method to increase sales. They are still dealing with a bad reputation due to their past, as well as a somewhat down-market brand name, and their long warranty and high content for the money are meant to help overcome this.

targettuning · July 2007

Reference: ABS...ESC/ESP...traction control and toss in side curtains front and rear..active headrests too while you are at it. File under: rather have it and not need it than need it and, well, not have it. Close file. Please, enough with the Honda commercial already. The idylic eternal drive through the country side with sun shining and birds chirping. Honda's will break.

mz6greyghost · July 2007

Over the past two days, my wife and I have finally been able to go out and actually test-drive a few vehicles that she's considering. The vehicles are listed in the order we tested them:

'07 Altima 2.5S (6 speed manual with convenience plus package): To be totally honest, I was VERY surprised at this combination from Nissan. The interior is head-and-shoulders above the previous-gen, both in fit-and-finish, and the quality of materials. The seats were very comfortable, and there's plenty of room for tall drivers like myself. The drive itself was excellent. The 4-cyl has more than enough go when it's loaded with 4 adults and A/C at full blast. The 6-speed was smooth, and easy to modulate, as well as the clutch. The steering was a little light for my tastes, and cornering still isn't close to the standard that the Mazda6 sets (IMO). All in all, a remarkable improvement from the previous-gen model.

'07 Altima 3.5SE V6(6-speed manual with sport package): Yes, it's 95 more HP than the 2.5, and yes, it's noticeable especially during acceleration, but I still felt a little torque-steer here and there, and the difference between this and the 2.5 isn't nearly as large as I thought it'd be. Yes, the 3.5 goes like stink, but the 2.5 is no slouch, especially with the 6-speed. Overall, it still felt heavy compared to both the 2.5 (obviously) and my Mazda6 (V6 with 5-speed manual), and the handling wasn't there either.

After both drives, my wife preferred the 2.5, for the gas mileage, the use of regular fuel, and the $4K price difference, which she feels that the 3.5SE wasn't worth.

'07 Ford Fusion SE V6 AWD: We didn't drive it, but after sitting in it, my wife wasn't impressed, saying that the interior looked and felt cheap. The SEL may have been better, but there wasn't one in sight, so we left.

'07 Mercury Milan Premier V6 AWD (with moonroof): Compared to the Fusion, this was MUCH nicer to both my wife and me. Better materials, fit-and-finish, and the overall layout was very nice. The drive was good, very good in fact. The ride was VERY smooth, and the power from the V6 wasn't near the Nissans V6, but it still pulled well, even with AWD. And according to my wife and me, the NVH of the Milan was no better or worse than the Nissans.

'07 Honda Accord EX (4-cylinder, 5-speed manual): Another nice ride, with great fit-and-finish, and quality materials. My wife wasn't impressed with the controls for the radio and HVAC arranged as they were. The 4-cylinder performed well with the 5-speed, and was SLIGHTLY quieter than Nissans 2.5. The steering is too light and the brakes felt soft, but the handling was pretty good.

So far, she's torn between the 6-speed 2.5 (with it's fuel economy and features for the price) and the Milan V6 AWD (for the nice interior materials and fit-and-finish, and the AWD). Right now, her biggest decider is whether or not she can trade in the fun of a manual for the AWD that is needed in this climate (driving through winters in upstate NY, with over 150" of snow per year, and lake-effect events that almost happen instantaneously).

And yes, she CAN have the best of both worlds with the Subaru Legacy, but we've yet to try it out, and plan to within the coming days. I'll keep you posted.

targettuning · July 2007

And so the consumer wins anyhow regardless of motive. Wish I could say the same for the others.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Same reason, auto manufacturers fall into two basic categories. Those who voluntarily give consumers all the latest safety features without having to check option blocks to upgrade to the "primo super bling" model to get them (if available at all) or arm twisting by Uncle Sam.

I think Toyota and Honda do a pretty good job as well, ABS is standard even on a Civic DX or Accord VP, as well as some of the Scions. I was impressed by that personally.

It should be noted that GM made ABS standard on every vehicle they made in the 90s for a while but stopped doing it because the public said they would rather have an in-dash CD player :sick:

backy · July 2007

Not having a smooth shifting transmission won't kill you--literally. Not having side airbags, or collapsible steering column, or ABS, or maybe even ESC could kill you, or a loved one. You might never use airbags or ABS or ESC--hopefully you won't ever use them. But if you need them that one time and they aren't there, you would surely miss them.

The leather steering wheel cover and 8-way adjustable driver's seat on my Elantra feel good every time I drive the car. But not having them won't kill me.

urnews · July 2007

... with the Accord being our record holder for number of times on a hook.

What? An Accord on a towing truck? Surely, you jest. Tell us more. I thought all Accords were invincible (even though I've previously read otherwise).

goodegg · July 2007

Honda's will break.

Honda's what will break?

jeffyscott · July 2007

Well, why did it take so long for Ford and Nissan to make ABS standard on the Fusion and the Altima?

ABS was always available as a stand alone option on any trim level of Fusion.

IMO, any optional safety features ought to alway be made available as extra cost options on every trim level, without requiring other upgrades. In the case of the Accord, they have ESC available but only if you buy an expensive model.

mz6greyghost · July 2007

You will always have peace and comfort of mind everyday you drive your Honda, knowing full well it'll never leave you stranded.

You will always enjoy the quicker acceleration up the freeway on-ramp and the more comfortable seats and interior quality. You will always enjoy not having to feel the car leaning at a big angle every time you take a turn at higher speeds. You will always enjoy superior transmission smoothness and fuel economy.

Be sure to contact Honda so they can send the check to the right address...

targettuning · July 2007

Ah, maybe one,or more,of the thousands of bits and pieces designed and assembled by fallible (human) Honda employees. Even the occasional misbehaving robot welder or part handler.

benderofbows · July 2007

Great post.

Definately, get the manual!

I wanted to look at the Altima 2.5 6-speed manual, but I knew that since it was a new design, I wouldn't be able to get nearly as good of a deal as I did on the Accord (under invoice).

jeffyscott · July 2007

And yes, she CAN have the best of both worlds with the Subaru Legacy...

She could also get that in a speed6, as I am sure you know.

pat · July 2007

We are NOT talking about manufacturers here. If you want to contribute to this discussion, please make your post specifically about one or more midsize sedans. Otherwise your post is going to disappear and if that continues to happen, your posting privileges are going to disappear.

benderofbows · July 2007

ABS may have been available as a stand-alone option, but very, very few of the Fusions I looked at (and we are talking several dealers over several months) had the option, regardless of trim level.

mz6greyghost · July 2007

I wanted to look at the Altima 2.5 6-speed manual, but I knew that since it was a new design, I wouldn't be able to get nearly as good of a deal as I did on the Accord (under invoice).

True, but the $22K sticker for the 2.5S was nice compared to the $25K sticker on the Accord, and it seems that the Accord dealer wasn't nearly willing to budge, since the manuals "are so rare" and that was his "last 4-cyl manual" before the redesigned '08 comes out.

andres3 · July 2007

Since Honda paid for the transmission replacement in my Accord out of warranty, and then I turned around and sold it at 65K miles at 50 months old for 53% residual/resale value (including my tax, title, license costs originally), I'd say I owed Honda that nice endorsement of their midsize model, the awesomely amazing Accord.

benderofbows · July 2007

Come down to where I bought my Accord... they now have a black EX sedan with tan cloth and stick shift, with a tag hanging from the rearview for $20,890 or something. Almost made me have buyer's remorse on my LX...

jeffyscott · July 2007

Presumably this was a market based decision on the part of Ford and/or the dealers. Some people don't want to pay $500 extra to have ABS, just as some do not want to pay $500 extra for ESC.

You did have the option to order what you wanted or keep looking to find it. That is not the case for ESC on the Accord, if you wanted it you had to buy an expensive trim level.

Don't take this the wrong way. I am certainly not tryng to say Ford has a perfect record in this regard at all, but for this particular point about ESC in the Accord vs. ABS in the Fusion, Ford did the right thing and Honda did not.

mz6greyghost · July 2007

She could also get that in a speed6, as I am sure you know.

Oh yes, I'm well aware of it, as well as she is, but she doesn't like driving my 6, saying it's more of a sports car than a family sedan to her. I happen to take it as a huge compliment!

Besides, 93-octane premium isn't readily available near where she works, and she doesn't want to drive a "flashy" car like the Speed6, since she's an Assistant Principal at a High School.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Not having a smooth shifting transmission won't kill you--literally. Not having side airbags, or collapsible steering column, or ABS, or maybe even ESC could kill you, or a loved one.

Since pretty much every car since 1968 has had a collapsible steering column, I think we are good there. I am a big fan of ABS and think of it as a necessity, but as a stand alone option thats not terrible (although I mostly see it bundled with SABs, also probably not terrible).

benderofbows · July 2007

Wait a minute, can you even get ESC in a Fusion?

It's not about trim levels or options in the Accord, more about engine choice; it is standard with V6 models. Honda actually considers the SE-V6 to be a lower trim level than the EX-I4. Both the LX and SE V6 models can be had for less than an EX-L I4 with nav.

Couldn't the fact that the I4 has better weight distribution and thus better handling have something to do with it?

mz6greyghost · July 2007

... they now have a black EX sedan with tan cloth and stick shift, with a tag hanging from the rearview for $20,890 or something.

Tempting, but she doesn't want black and/or a light-colored interior.

urnews · July 2007

MZ6GreyGhost,

That was a very informative post. Thanks. We have a 2007 SEL AWD V6 Fusion ($27,105 MSRP) and like everything about it, EXCEPT the very poor 14.8 mpg for in-city driving after seven months and 3,700 miles.

The handling is great, in all weather, and it sounds as if you are interested in a "snow-belt" machine, so I would recommend the Milan, especially if you are not concerned about mileage.

The revised EPA estimate for this power train is 17 mpg city; 24 mpg highway and we all know those estimates are optimistic.

jeffyscott · July 2007

ESC is not available on any trim level of Fusion.

Once again, this is different from having it available but only if you buy $5000 in other options, that you do no want.

targettuning · July 2007

After driving the Fusion a few more days a couple of new things become apparent.
1. I previously stated the Fusion was missing some nice touches the Optima had and used steering wheel radio control as an example. I have found a few more. The Fusion "S" dash/instrument cluster does not feature a handy menu of functions like: average MPG...miles to empty (current tank)...outside temperature...or even a dash display showing what gear it is in. Speaking of gears.
2. the Fusion shift quadrant has only P..R..N..D..and L. No Hyundai/Kia Shiftronic manumatic shifter for sure. I am not sure what would happen if I shifted from D to L at speed. I suppose it would NOT go immediately into low..hah! I know these "shift it yourself" automatics may fall into gimmic land for some but even though I only used it once on our trip with the Optima (demonstrated its function for my wife)it is one of those "nice touches" in my book.
3. I like the rubbery touch material used on the door panels and dash. The Optima had this material scattered around the interior too.
4. I don't like the very low and far to the left headlight switch and I don't like the lack of "auto-off/auto-on" headlamps. The Optima low end model also had this.
5. I continue to notice the engine induction noise and raspy exhaust and now think it is primarily induction noise. Very noisy throughout acceleration range.
6. The Fusion has an Euro type short stick roof mounted radio antenna which seems to work well but the radio itself is not easy to use while driving (I know) with a lot of fussy buttons and controls and that lack of wheel mounted radio controls become even more missed.
7. For some reason the Fusion seem to be a more massive car to me. I don't think it is physically much, if at all, larger than the Optima so why this would be?? Don't know.
So, while I like the sharp handling/taunt ride of the Fusion it is off-set by an immensely noisy engine.As of right now I would not buy the 4cyl for that reason alone. Taking a road trip tomorrow..fuel economy numbers to come as well as longer drive perceptions.

targettuning · July 2007

ABS and Traction control yes ESC no according to the 2007 Fusion brochure I am looking at.
Traction control only on V-6 models N/A on any 4 cylinder model.
ABS optional across all models and engine choices

Midsize Sedans 2.0

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles