Midsize Sedans 2.0

goodegg · July 2007

I AM considering a Sonata I wonder (after having rented both 4 and V-6) if I really, really need the 6

Can't speak on the Sonata 4 cyl, but the Accord 4 cyl is a strong, peppy, marvelous piece of machinery which is hard to beat.

goodegg · July 2007

Has anybody already tried anything like this? What do you guys think, will it make any difference and if so, will it be worth it?

I would guess you're late to work every day.

Kirstie_H · July 2007

It's set up for hybrids, but you might check out our Hypermiling discussion.

targettuning · July 2007

I, for one think much of this has become a "game" for the participants. Not so much in managing fuel economy as bragging rights. Also, most of their moves seem downright dangerous to me. I would not attempt most of the things they do....not worth my life for whatever fuel economy gained. Oh, coasting seems harmless enough but what if a powered move becomes necessary? By the time one realizes they are in neutral and remembers to engage drive the need for the powered move has passed..to what harm?? Not for me!

urnews · July 2007

So far, I've been seeing 28 mpg city / 34 mpg highway in the Accord, average of 30, without even trying to maximize economy (quick starts and heel-toe downshifts in the city, and 70-80 mph highway).

Every time I read a mileage report I get nauseous. That's because no matter what we do our 2007 SEL AWD V6 Fusion only yields a constant 14.8 in all-city driving after seven months and 3,700 miles.

The revised EPA estimate (always optimistic) for this power train is 17 mpg city; 24 mpg highway. We did take one 360-mile trip with this car and it averaged 26 mpg going and 24 mpg returning driving 65-75 mph.

Technicians at our dealership checked the car over with a computer at 1,500 miles and said everything was according to specifications; they found nothing to be "wrong."

Our terrain is flat. The climate is moderate (air conditioner now in use all the time). The tires are slightly over inflated to 35 psi. My wife and I are conservative, gentle drivers.

Every visit to a gasoline station, every two weeks, makes me cringe and causes me to wish we had purchased the I4 with either the automatic or a five-speed manual. The fill-up experience occasionally makes me wish we had bought an Accord, too.

We like most everything about the Fusion, EXCEPT for the crummy mileage. I have nicknamed the car "The Guzzler," because of its poor mileage.

targettuning · July 2007

Since I am now driving a rental 2007 "S" model 4 cylinder/5 speed auto Fusion for an undetermined length of time it would pay you to read (and heed maybe?)some of those observations I am posting. First, and maybe foremost to you would be the excessive engine noise followed closely by fuel economy which at 26.5 highway is unremarkable among similar sized 4 cylinder (and some V-6) competition. This week I will be driving around town and to/from work (small city suburban driving) where the Stratus routinely gets 22-23 mpg. I'll post what the Fusion gets under those same conditions. You state you had wished you had purchased the 4 instead..as I have frequently been told "watch what you wish for." The 4 cylinder version seems to me to be sub-par as compared to both the Hyundai Sonata and Kia Optima in some categories (noise,standard features and fuel economy at least)...undoubtedly, as many will chime in, to the Accord/Camry 4's as well. I have no real axe to grind against Ford either..just calls 'em as I see 'em.

thegraduate · July 2007

Listings on Ebay, autotrader, or whatever are not ways to measure reliability or durability. Once those 200k+ Accords sell you may see more Tauruses with 200k+ miles listed. Should I call USA Today so they can start printing the story now?

Exactly, baggs. It's just as scientific as deciding which is the best car from 40 consumer reviews at the top of the page. "Well, car X is rated 9.2, and I like it a lot, but car Y is rated 9.4, so I guess I'll buy that one. It's clearly the best car." That would be a pretty proposterous proposition(pardon the allitteration!)

The Taurus, while not exactly competitive in its last few years, did prove to be of at least average reliability by many accounts.

Seems like if I were choosing a domestic to be a bad example of reliability, I would've gone with a 90s Chrysler anyway! :P

urnews · July 2007

I found this on another forum. I don't know the source.

June 2007 Retail Sales (excluding fleet sales).

43,000 Camrys vs only 9,100 Fusions!

1.Camry 43039
2.Accord 27498
3.Altima 21681
4.Impala 16526
5.Sonata 10917
6.Fusion 9102
7.G6 6949
8.Legacy 6269
9.Sebring 3740
10.Aura 3581
11.Passat 3249
12.Malibu 3243
13.Mazda6 2185
14.Milan 2144
15.Galant 1954
16.Avenger 1701
17.Optima 1466

baggs32 · July 2007

We've seen the interior of the Ford Flex and speculated that the '09 Fusion will get something similar. I have to beg to differ now though. Seems to me it will get something more along the lines of the '08 Focus and Escape interior. See the pic below and note that you can opt for a navigation system in the Escape or the Sync in the Focus, both of which replace the standard radio controls with a 9 inch touch screen unit. The dual zone climate control readouts are in the screen on top of the dash. It's actuall kind of nice when you see it all lit up with the temps and such. Multicolored and different fonts/sizes to help with interpretation.

2008 Ford Focus interior.

Escape with navigation.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

The Focus interior looks very Mazda3 with the display at the top of the center stack instead of with the radio.
From a usability standpoint, it makes sense because the display is much closer to the road so in theory it should result in less eyes-off-road time. The downside is when you separate controls from their displays, there are mapping issues and those might be even more prevalent with sync and its capabilities. I think they just expect the driver to use the steering wheel controls.

akirby · July 2007

Not necessarily. The Focus and Escape interiors were done prior to Fields taking over and from what the insiders tell us the Flex interior is closer to what we'll see on the 09 Fusion (with adjustments for cars vs. CUV, etc.). Remember the Flex will hit the streets next summer before the 09 Fusion.

jeffyscott · July 2007

I'm surprised at your low highway MPG. I averaged about 32 mpg in automatic mazda6 I4, which is the same engine. This was over a 1600 mile round trip at about 72-77 mph most of the time and A/C on part of the time.

I've been getting 23-25 mpg in my normal suburban commute...speed on my route varies from about 30 to 60 mph with an average speed around 40-45 mph. There are quite few stop lights but no congestion.

I think the I4 sounds great, at least in the Mazda variation. I don't feel there is excessive engine noise at all. I could do with somewhat less tire noise than the Mazda has on some pavement, though.

jd10013 · July 2007

the altima was at 25,935, and the accord was at 28,900 (surprisingly, down 14%), the camry was at 46,630, and the fusion was 12,425. also down from last year.

the two that are really surprising are the altima and camry. even though fusion and accord sales were down from last year, both companies saw solid growth in their compact cars, (both focus and civic were way up)which probably explains the drop. but corrola and sentra sales were also up significantly.

captain2 · July 2007

in this era of $4 gas, pretty much all mfgrs. of smaller/economical sedans should see increases. The Altima has been a solid #3 for some time now and is further reinforced by its update, the Accord is an outgoing design and should be 'suffering' at least until its redesign, while the Camry is well, the Camry.

jd10013 · July 2007

I think the altima was the most striking, sales figure wise. the camry growth can be attributed to the hybrid version. but the altima saw a 77% increase from june 2006. they didn't sell enough coupe's to attribute it to that. and actually, that was the fist decline in the accord in a long time. Have the rebates stopped or something? seems they were keeping the sales going strong for most of this year.

targettuning · July 2007

Well, as I said since this was the first time driving the Fusion on this particular trip. And I can't comment on an extended drive as yours that probably included a lot longer time at cruise speed on an interstate/turnpike. I can, however, equate this car to others including my own (the 95 Stratus and a 2006 Civic) on this re-occurring trip that follows the same route..speed (more or less) and load week in and week out. I was somewhat surprised by the fuel economy but I knew about what was coming by the amount of fuel left (per the dash gage)upon return home. Also, I don't really know what Ford was thinking leaving the amount of induction noise intact when designing this. I have not encountered this much noise on a new car...ever! Yeah, there is muted intake/induction noise on other brands but this seems to have been left intact to simulate "sportiness?" maybe. It really is unrelenting unless you absolutely are on cruise with no additional acceleration needed. But, accelerate for any reason and it becomes evident again. This may be pleasing to some but it is annoying when it drowns out the radio (low volume to be sure).

targettuning · July 2007

As an addendum I have researched the hp/torque figures on both the Stratus 2.5 V-6 and the 2007 Fusion 2.3 I4. As follows:
1.) 2.5 Stratus V-6. 164 hp 163 lb./ft.torque.
2.) 2.3 I4 Fusion 160 hp 156 lb./ft. torque.
3.) Stratus weight...approx. 3180 lb.
4.) Fusion weight..unknown at this point but possibly something very similar.

jeffyscott · July 2007

Fusion weight..unknown at this point but possibly something very similar.

Yep, it is 3101 pounds with manual, according to edmunds, then add about 75 pounds for the automatic and it is right there with the Stratus. 75 pounds is the added weight for automatic, based on Mazda6 brochure I have.

targettuning · July 2007

While this car isn't within this size class (and therefore not to be dissused here) I think this is interesting. I had occasion to rent a 2006 Chevy Impala to make "the trip" about a month ago. It had the base 3.5 liter V-6 and 4 speed auto. At the end of "the trip" the fuel economy readout said....29.4 mpg. I believe this to be due,in very large part,to the gearing..approx 1600 RPM @ 72 mph.

akirby · July 2007

Ford has suffered on fuel economy because Bill Ford's mandate for the last several years has been emissions. Ford has a V6 Explorer that puts out less emissions than a Prius, yet they never advertised it and the public never seemed to care. I always thought that was the wrong focus but it seemed to be a personal thing with Billy. Now the gloves are off and we've seen a hint with the new Taurus having a mileage increase while adding 60 hp with the new 3.5L engine. I expect mpg increases across the board for all the new stuff starting with the 09 models.

benderofbows · July 2007

Oh, coasting seems harmless enough but what if a powered move becomes necessary? By the time one realizes they are in neutral and remembers to engage drive the need for the powered move has passed..to what harm?? Not for me!

It's a manual, I wouldn't shift an automatic into neutral while cruising.

My last automatic... if I was cruising along in gear and decided I needed to make a "powered move" and punched it, I would get... nothing. The car would hesitate for a moment as if to say, are you serious? Then, the revs would fall as it shifted out of the gear it was in and worked its way down... when it found the gear it wanted, wham! the revs would shoot way back up, and acceleration would begin.

Even if I forget I'm in neutral, I can shift into gear and get going as quick as an average slushbox can react to your right foot.

jeffyscott · July 2007

In a perhaps more controlled test, EPA has 29 mpg highway for the Fusion I4 and 28 for the 3.5L Impala. So they are close on the highway. Difference is only 2 mpg in the EPA city test.

Also, I beleive in contrast to your results...in the March 2006 issue CR measured 32 mpg highway for the I4 Fusion (milan, actually) and the sonata 4 cyl was measured at 33 mpg highway in that same issue.

andres3 · July 2007

in my V6 Accord. And I drive with a lead foot and at 80 MPH when I can and traffic will allow me to. Also I drive in heavy traffic often. On long trips I'd easily hit the EPA estimate of 30 highway at 80 MPH.

targettuning · July 2007

Yeah, you know the often used phrase..."results may vary" is true. I try to maintain 72 mph on the Pa Turnpike on all the cars I travel in, rented or not. Then on the more rural stretches of 2 lane in Bedford and Somerset County Pa. I am constantly aware of the deer population even during the daylight. This past trip we saw 3 doe with 4 fawn in the middle of the afternoon. At night things get worse + bear + bobcat so all kinds of wildlife is around. I hit two deer last fall so I am especially aware with a rental. As a result I drive moderately especially at night. It would be safe to say my driving is about as sedate as possible off the Turnpike. So fuel economy should be at its best as far as speed is concerned..BUT factor in the mountainous stretches and economy falls to some degree or another.

baggs32 · July 2007

..BUT factor in the mountainous stretches and economy falls to some degree or another.

We traversed the PA TP (worst road in the world I say) from Pittsburgh to Lancaster two weeks ago in our '06 Explorer. Just under 22 mpg for the trip which was 95% highway, 70-75 mph, A/C on all the way, and CC on most of the way. I thought that was pretty darn good. Now we're back to 13 mpg for our 90% city commute where you have to start from full rest on long steep hills. I think that's where mileage suffers, not on highway hills.

louiswei · July 2007

Altima Recall

Uh oh, not good for Nissan.

moparbad · July 2007

Uh oh, not good for Nissan.

Replace the air filter and add a screen.

I'd say that is a very minor recall.

Not even close to "sludged engines" or breaking camshafts or having to replace engine coils.

jd10013 · July 2007

yea, a $6 air filter isn't really that big a deal. every car gets recalled for something. this is about as minor as it gets

louiswei · July 2007

Apparently, cars with the 2.5-liter four-cylinder have an air filter that can cause some serious problems. It seems that if something hot is sucked into the filter, like ashes from a cigarette, it can catch on fire. Four incidents have already been reported to Nissan.

Uh, yeah, replacing an air filter is no biggie but the reason behind that isn't so "minor" as it seems.

andres3 · July 2007

1/10th as much as a single problem that isn't admitted to across the board.

I know from reading MSN's user reviews that everyone had the same problems I did with their domestic, (well, okay, not all, but many). Dodge never admitted to any wrong doing or recalls. What a sham!

jd10013 · July 2007

its still minor. so far, .003% of the cars sold have had a problem. deffinitly not minor if you one of those 4 people, but for the 139,996 whose car's didn't suck something hot up the air intake and cause the air filter to catch fire, not that big a deal. no worse than the 165,000 accords that were recalled in march because of an engine problem.

imidazol97 · July 2007

Sounds trivial to me. I can't recall the last time I drove through flames or burning embers. The closest I came was 18 years ago a foreign car pulled out to pass in front on my on way home with wife from day surgery at hospital. Apparently he gunned it or something as he changed lanes in front of me (I was in left lane). IT blew up as he pulled into my lane spraying engine parts and oil and coolant all over my car. Pieces looked like rods. But no flames. Next time, who knows.

dilettante · July 2007

My thoughts exactly. Even the rear of the new Accord is similar to the Saturn L-series. Having disliked the current Accord, I had high hopes for the 2008 model. Unfortunately, I the new design is among my least favorite of the midsize segment. I hope that it looks better in person.

plekto · July 2007

I've owned many, many cars in my 49 years of driving but I've never owned one with 100,000 miles.
***

Meh. My 1975 Volvo 164E? 230K. My 1990 Volvo 240? 270K. My Toyota 4-Runner?(currently running) 345K and still going. 4 cylinder Toyotas are as close to indestructible as it gets.

Oh - and I had a couple of Buicks at 150K+ before I got rid of them.

bhmr59 · July 2007

What year , make and model had that unresponsive slushbox tranny? My '05 Sonata with automatic tranny is responsive. I haven't driven the latest generation Sonata, but my brother says his '07 Sonata SE has plenty of juice at any speed.

bhmr59 · July 2007

Lead foot doesn't mean dink if you are on highway run. Once you've attained the speed it doesn't take much to maintain the speed. A long steep hill will affect it some, but nothing like accelerating from 0 to 60, regardless of how easy or hard one is on the gas.

zzzoom6 · July 2007

On my last longish trip going through very hilly parts and going 85 most of the way, I got 28 mpg so getting 30 mpg in an Accord shouldn't be considered that big of a deal.

zzzoom6 · July 2007

so, with 20,000 miles and after driving it for 18 months, my car is worth MORE THAN WHAT I PAID FOR IT (using their suggested retail price)!!! And private party value is about $2200 less than what I paid for it. Some were saying resale value is mostly dependent on what car you buy...I would suggest that this piece of information indicates that price paid is a bigger factor. So when a car can be had at a great price (I've heard of Mazda6's selling new for $6k+ below msrp), resale value as a percentage of price paid will be much better than brands who charge a premium for their product.

But I should mention that this info is not too important...I plan on keeping this car for quite a while since I really enjoy driving it. For my tastes, it's still the best mix of practicality, attractiveness, performance, safety, and value in this segment.

goodegg · July 2007

Why wouldn't somebody just buy a new one like you did and get the better price?

I wouldn't put a whole lot of anything into KBB or NADA etc. Your car is worth what someone will pay you, and that could be a lot less than you think.

tallman1 · July 2007

so getting 30 mpg in an Accord shouldn't be considered that big of a deal.

I get at least 30 around town in my 06 I4 Accord with a manual. I've only had a couple of tanks of gas that got 29. Highway is always well above EPA.

zzzoom6 · July 2007

you assume that buyers are logical and know how or are willing to do even basic research. a friend of mine who just bought a used xterra spent about as much as a person who could have gotten a new one with more than just 600 miles left on his warranty. why? who knows... but probably he saw the car and justified in his mind that buying used was saving him a lot of money when it wasn't. of course, I didn't have the heart to tell him that he paid too much, but it just goes to show there are a lot of buyers of used cars who don't pay a lot of attention to the prices of new ones. all they see is the big difference between msrp and what KBB says and think they are saving a lot.

I'm not saying it's fair that I could sell my 18 month car with only a 10% reduction in price (using KBB's private party value for my car), but that's the way they price it and I'm surely not compaining. But if I were to go back on the market to look for another car that could take the twisties like a mazda6 and could also hold a coffee table fully assembled in the back and look good doing it, I'd be buying another Mazda6.

benderofbows · July 2007

I've had three midsizers over 100,000 miles, a 1991 Mazda 626 DX manual, a 1990 Accord EX automatic, and a 1998 Mazda 626 ES-V6 manual. (actual photos below- better pics and more interior pics coming)

See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com

See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com

See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com

lilengineerboy · July 2007

I think the only car in the fleet that didn't do well over 100k was the '83 Reliant. If the Caravan hadn't been exactly the right vehicle at the right time, I think Chrysler would've been off the list. That said, that minivan was fantastic in every way including reliability and durability.
Everything else was somewhere between 140 and 190k.

urnews · July 2007

Boy, that sure is a lot of motoring. Apparently you hold onto your cars for quite awhile, too. That's one way to get your money's worth.

captain2 · July 2007

exactly, car resale values whether it be through a dealer or private party will always be related to what a new version costs on late model cars, and the reason why those values tend to plummet when a particular vehicle starts being rebated and/or sold with bought down finance rates. The KBBs and NADAs of the world have a tough time with current real dollar values esp. at the point that the mfgr has to offer those rebates and other 'deals' to clear their inventories.
The only time that I've seen a car 'appreciate' after purchase is when it is hard-to-get and/or in very high demand (the Prius and the Mini come to mind) exactly the opposite of the situation with have with any of the cars in this group (to varying degrees).

baggs32 · July 2007

I don't think the '09 F-150 was before Fields though and it has an Escape/Focus like interior in this spy shot.

urnews · July 2007

Boy that is one ugly dash, don't care what it is from. :sick:

akirby · July 2007

Actually it was done BF (Before Fields). He took one look at it and sent the designers back to the drawing boards - for sheetmetal changes. I don't think they changed the interior.

baggs32 · July 2007

They may want to rethink that then or at least do what GM does and offer two interiors. IIRC one of the comments I read made the point that work gloves won't be able to push those tiny buttons. That person is very right.

akirby · July 2007

It's possible they're changing the interior, too. Then again - this is the F150, not the Superduty.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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