Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
I don't think it's a matter of intelligence, or lack there of. For Most people, buying a car is big deal, almost a special occasion. Unlike the car nuts here, I don't think its something the average person does more than once every 5-10 years. So, they go into the dealership with their mind already made up as to what they want, with the intention of driving it off the lot. Then the salesman steps in and starts throwing numbers and documents at them faster than they can possibly understand them. They totally loose track of what their paying for, and how much its costing them. then, they're off to the finance officer. He (in the same quick, incomprehensible fassion) starts throwing more numbers and papers arround, gives the buyer a monthly payment amount that they know the buyer will find too high. they then play with the loan term, or interest rate (maintaing the same prive for the vehicle and options) and come up with a $50 lower monthly payment. the owner quickly signs the papers thinking he just got a great deal, and doesn't realize he was realy screwed till a week or so later after spending 2 hours or so reading the 30 pages of documents he brought home with him.
But that assumes that they would want a Mazda6 in the first place... but for those who want a fun to drive car that has an expressive personality and is priced very competitively, it may be worth considering.
Can "average Joe" of the street get 6.5k off MSRP on a Mazda6?
Logic being Honda's last over 200K while other cars are just happy to go 100K.
I think that is the main driving factor behind resale value. Miles mean little to Honda/Toyota midsize cars.
Andres! Where do you come up with these blanket statements? I've owned a Cam and a Cord and have an Odyssey and a TL in my garage tonight, so I obviously love Honda, but I don't subscribe to the thought process that Hondas are twice as good as the others out there.
I think most people buy Hondas because of their sporty, athletic attributes and their outstanding engineering, not because they feel they're gonna get rewarded with out of this world qualities.
I think since many buyers are intimidated by the whole car buying process/ experience, many people act irrationally or impatiently and end up paying more than they need to. I knew what the situation was in terms of ad prices and the amount of inventory the dealers had so I leveraged this information to secure my pricing making clear to the dealers I negotiated with that I was in no particular hurry nor was I dead set in getting their car or even their brand. This midsize segment has many good cars and the vast majority of them have proven to be very reliable according to CR and JD Powers so having an open mind allowed me to be comfortable with choices that would let me maximize value and bang for my buck(s). It's a buyers market for most of these cars right now, and people shopping in this category can benefit if they were to consider the many good choices in this segment.
We should all admire andres' passion for his car. But that's not to say we should all follow in his and scape2's footsteps. :P
i love nissans, however i know they have flaws, as do all vehicles out there. the best way to decide what the best car for you is, is to go out and actually drive them. cars have come a long way, and a lot of the stereotypes are no longer even remotely valid.
i have a saab 9-3 sportcombi as a loaner car while my hubby's saab 9-2x is in the shop. i was very impressed! fast, fun, nimble, comfortable...i never would have thought it. im glad i don't let the stereotypes get in the way...
-thene
A really big mistake IMO as the real price of anything is what it costs in cash. Giving the dealer the opportunity to 'play' with any multitude of 'financing' arrangements or (even worse) lease plans is nothing more than asking to get screwed. If I run into a salesman at a dealer that does ask me how much I want to pay a month initially, I will simply walk out!
Thereafter the buyer's remorse you mention, simply because that buyer has no idea what he really paid for his car, only that he got his 500 buck payment, and a few years later is hit with some sort of refinance (or lease 'buyout') balloon or is paying some outrageous interest rate over a too long term on too high a price etc. etc. Again a hard concept for someone like me to understand - negotiate a cash deal (no trades or 'special' financing), that being the true cost of the car, and then go from there if you must.
The TCO purcahase price includes taxes and fees and "typical" options.
But besides that, there is a difference in the TMV used in the TCO and the TMV you get when you go through the edmunds pricing function. For example the Accord SE TMV is about $600 lower in the TCO, while the Mazda6 SVE is about $100 higher in the TCO.
Yeah, I did not buy one because it was cheaper, that was just gravy .
Just out of my own curiosity I did my own TCO, assuming I paid invoice price minus rebate (not even considering the much greater discount that I actually got). I used edmunds numbers for repair and maintenance costs. I adjusted fuel costs to reflect the amount I drive. I used edmunds figures for expected value after 5 years. I assumed no significant difference in insurance cost, because I know in my case there would not be a significant difference. As I am a cash buyer, I estimated what I would earn (after tax) on the amount saved by purchasing a 6.
For me this adjusted TCO came up with the Mazda6 being cheaper than the Accord by about 3 cents per mile. This shows how much things can vary when you look at your own individual circumstances, since the generic figues had the Accord at 3 cents per mile less than the Mazda6.
Now, since 3 cents per mile one way or the other amounts to about $20 per month for me, this would not be enough of a difference to push me one way or the other anyway.
I'm giving you half off!!!
Considering that my wife's Neon is over 107K miles, and I haven't even come close to sinking $1400 in it for repairs, then I would've been at least $1K for NO reason. So no, I wouldn't become passionate. In fact, I'd think they're scam artists (since most "extended" warranties turn out to be a scam anyway).
Have I spent money on some repairs? Sure, but at 100k miles, the only repairs were done under an extended emissions warranty (due to a recall in 1996 Accords). It needed a new Oxygen sensor.
Heck, I'll offer 60% off!
:P
For our '07 Sonata SE purchased in February: TCO says purchase price (before DMV fees, etc) is $20,855, we paid $16651. TCO says 1st year financing (with 10%) down = $1343, our 13.7% down shows our HMFC financing at $851 (the extra $700 down is NOT saving us $500 interest in the first year). The insurance, with 300K liability & UM, 5,000 medical, and $200 deductible comprehensive & $500 collision deductible is $400 less than TCO projects.
TCO says the expected resale of this car after one year will be $15,195. If this is accurate, the 1st year deprecication would be $1,456, not the $6272 shown in TCO.
Take the TCO with a grain of salt. As jeffyscott said, your actual purchase price will greatly affect your TCO.
Regards;
OldCEM
How about you just reimburse me for the repairs to our '96 Civic and we'll call it even? :shades: That would be somewhere in the range of $500-$700 that you owe me. Probalby closer to $500. We sold it with just over 40k miles on the odo and I can find the second owner if you want to reimburse him for his repair costs too.
Seriously though, my answer is no. I tried to like Honda's vehicles but just can't. I found that I just can't become passionate about a vehicle that has no passion to me. I'm very passionate about my Mustang but it is an American icon so not many people wouldn't be. I was passionate about my Mazda6 too because it was, simply put, an amazing car. Our Explorer? Well, I'm not so passionate about it because it is very much like a Honda in that it is an appliance which is how I see them.
Also, that Civic was the highest mileage vehicle we've ever owned. We usually lease or trade up after 2 or 3 years. Yeah, it's stupid financially but I like cars a lot and it's my money. :P So you'd never sell me on that reimbursement plan anyway.
EPA estimates for the three are 18/28, 18/26, and 19/28 respectively. The Taurus is the heaviest and the Accord is the lightest IIRC.
For reference I threw in an Acura TL 3.5L V6 5sp ATX to see how the Honda 3.5L favored because it is supposedly similar to the new V6 for the Accord as we've talked about. It has roughly 20 more horses than the Taurus and Camry in terms of power and its weight falls somewhere in between the two. EPA estimates are 17/26.
So I'm guessing we're not to expect great things fromt he Accord V6 when it comes to gas mileage? Cylinder deactivation should help a little I'm sure. But from what I understand based on other mfrs who have implemented it, including Honda in the Odyssey, it's only useful on long straight highways where you can just cruise along. I don't live anywhere near those types of roads so I surely wouldn't pay extra for that technology.
a spot where we will differ, any car that logically should run in the low 6s (high 5s?) 0-60 and still return something like 30 mpg on the highway and well into the 20s all around, gets my vote for 'great' gas mileage. We do after all have those 4 bangers for those willing to trade that extra performance for a mpg or two or three, don't we?
Chrysler (and GM) both claim a 10% increase in overall FE with the 'variable displacement' systems they put on their gas hog V8s and I have observed the same thing you talk about, the inability of the cars to even hold anything close to current highway speeds on 4 cylinders. Would imagine it would be even less effective trying to get a 3400 lb. sedan to do the same given the lesser displacements (and torque) of the V6s. Think the real answers are right in front of us, OHC engines with intelligent control systems that maximize engine efficiency in almost all conditions and I wouldn't bet that Honda won't be able to take it to a next level above what Toyota has already done.
Interesting. Our experience with Chrysler would show that 6 Chryslers might have the combined lifespan of 3 Hondas! I'm at 174k miles on the '96 Accord, and it hasn't stranded me yet. Has it needed some repairs? Of course. Any car with that many miles will, even so-called "perfect" Honda. I've spent about $1,000 in the last five years on three repairs. Not perfect, but not bad at all in my eyes.
We got burned once in 1994, and in an act of stupidity, bought another one in 1996. BOTH proved to be garage-queens, with one vehicle needing a suspension rebuild, and both having transmission issues keeping them in the shop for not multiple days, but instead weeks.
And, the lucky for us, the cars were so new, they never got out of their warranty (the '94 LeBaron Convertible had less than 20k miles and was traded 8 months after purchase on a 95 Civic. The '96 Sebring was sold at 35k miles because my folks knew they couldn't afford the car once in ran out of warranty - they came back to Honda the second and final time). They don't limit their shopping choices to Honda (nor do I), but they do boycott Chrysler, even 10 years later.
And, "Viking Funeral Package" lol
There's a good bit more to it than that but I don't know all the details off hand. Some reviews I've read of the Taurus have praised the low engine noise levels so maybe the D35 has been tweaked over the last year.
I don't differ with you on that but I don't see Honda increasing the mpg numbers over what they are for the competition that's all. Claims have been made in this thread that they will increase those numbers (thus saving the planet :P ) and I'm a bit skeptical if you can't tell.
One reason for the better refinement is the way Ford changed the engine mounts. They mounted it to a different part of the structure and used different mounts which went a long way. I'm wondering if this new discovery will carry over to other products like the Fusion in the coming years.
According to an article in Wikipedia, Ford expects the 3.5 to be in 20 percent of all FoMoCo vehicles by the end of the decade.
Mileage results for this engine do not seem very impressive to me, sort of run-of-the-mill. Am I missing something here?
As for the rest of it, I don't think that it can be argued, that 'Detroit' mfgrs. in general has NEVER produced a smaller engine that 'led the pack' in anything (except possibly gas consumption), those type of engines coming instead from the 'Japanese' and 'European' mfgrs.. Call it bias if you wish, I'll call it fact, at least until GM/Ford/Chrysler can produce a whole lot more than just a single 3.6L 'high-feature' V6.
According to an article in Wikipedia, Ford expects the 3.5 to be in 20 percent of all FoMoCo vehicles by the end of the decade.
Mileage results for this engine do not seem very impressive to me, sort of run-of-the-mill. Am I missing something here?
I actually agree with baggs32 on this, think there just must be something more ot it than just a simple displacement increase. Ward's 10 best - whoopee - that honor held for many many years by things like the 50s vintage GM pushrods (as well as the DT3.0) in whatever rendition. 'Best' engines are powerful, economical, smooth and quiet, and if the DT3.5 fails to measure up in 3 of those qualities, it will never find its way under my hoods - or maybe I'm just expecting too much?
At least you added the all-important "if" to your statement. I'm not saying Wards Automotive is the "be-all, end-all" judge of motors but it is a significant accomplishment to be included in the "Ten Best," don't you think?
I get passionate when I keep driving a Honda day after day, year after year, and I never have to lift the hood.
For me, Honda's number 1 attribute is bullet proof dependability. #2 is overall greatness; no weaknesses.
not really, much in the same way that I don't think that the Camry winning the COTY was a significant accomplishment, an award largely bestowed on that car because so many people buy them - and, incidentally why the GM 3.8/3800 pushrod/cam-in-block (or whatever marketing spin they choose to put on a really outdated design) achieved such recognition - it appeared
in about every GM product known to mankind for many many years. And furthermore, I believe it to be true that 'Ward's' awards are also 'sponsored' much in the same way as JDP's - if 'Wards' (in this case) knows that Ford needs some favorable pub and can get Ford to pay to use their name in some advertising campaigns, those '10 best' lists might just be predetermined!
I get passionate when I keep driving a Honda day after day, year after year, and I never have to lift the hood.
I put over $1000 in repairs into that Civic. The only other money I've ever spent on a premature or unexpected repair, and I'm not kidding or lying here, was $300 or so for a new A/C compressor in my '98 ZX2. Other vehicles I've owned, and see if you can spot the trend here now, were the '98 ZX2, '04 Mazda6 S, '02 and '05 Escape, '06 Explorer, and '06 Mustang GT.
Your blanket statements of Honda's perfection just don't fly with me andres. I'm sorry to disappoint you but there are others who agree with me. Even other Honda boys and girls can't believe your loyalty anymore! :P
I'm just objective and report the truth. The truth is my family and friends have had no issues with Toyota's and Honda's throughout my lifetime.
The truth is other cars have given Many MANY costly problems. The truth is I was the only one during my teenage years with my car in the shop all of the time (just ask all my friends). It's not like I bragged about my car being a junker, but they soon caught onto the fact that Dodge sucks!
What Dodge products did you have trouble with? Any mid-size variations?
Dodge's biggest failure of all-time, the Dodge Neon. You can argue that it isn't their biggest failure, but then again, Chrysler is full of failures.
The Honda Accord and Civic are virtually identicle and interchangeable when it comes to build quality and long term dependability. The only difference is one is compact and one is mid-size.
I thimk I read in this forum, that Ford was developing a 'new' 3.0 for the Fulans at about 240hp for 09/10 models. Possibly an improvement, but as is typical for Ford - too little too late, and I think it is quite obvious that they don't have the money to do what they really need to in this regard.
Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are!
It's obvious the DT3.5L has a lot more potential in both refinement, power and fuel economy than what we saw in the 07 models as evidenced by the 08 Taurus.
The truth is that quality is pretty much a wash now between mfrs especially in this class of cars. What someone buys now only depends on personal preference. There is no more Honda or Toyota safety net if there ever really was one.
Not long ago you could say that Honda and Toyota ruled the quality/reliability roost and back it up with different ratings and such. That time has past and it's people like you that the past losers need to convince otherwise. I hope they know how hard that is going to be. :surprise: