Midsize Sedans 2.0

captain2 · July 2007

aah so! OK I take it all back, and I'll be right behind you (and FoMoCo) into the depths of Chapter 7 as we all make (lose?) a fortune buying and selling used (and new) Mazda6s!

As I said it just doesn't happen and nor is any car (yes, even those Camcords) ever a good investment from any reasonable strictly financial viewpoint. In terms of believing a Camcords probable resale value projections vs. anything else in this group (other than the Altima, which also ranks very high on the ole used desirability list) - all you really have to do is actually try to sell (or buy) one vs the other - and then you will see how close your treasured KBB retail/private party/tradein numbers really are - in both cases.
Let me know when that happens to you, then I will apologize profusely for challenging any of these ridiculous contentions you make! As it is right now a Mazda6 should hold its value about as well as a Sonata - really lofty territory don't you think? Things like $6k discounts on $20k new cars do things like that.

maxamillion1 · July 2007

I like the interior shot! Looks at least better than the new Altima's interior.

Kinda makes me wonder if Nissan will have to do another "Interior 2.0" like they did with the 05 Altima. This time it wouldn't be because of materials, it would be because of the spartan design.

I like the new Altima, but the more I see new competitors hit the market, the more I worry that Nissan played it too safe with the Altima's redesign. The front end (which looks like it's smiling) isn't nearly aggresive enough, the styling looks too similar to the previous generation.

Even the Sonata is getting a more cohesive inteior next year...I'm definitely worried about Nissan.

zzzoom6 · July 2007

once again, since you can't seem to respond to what I've actually written and instead insist on making things up or divert into childish sarcism, I'll just make the point that these are not my resale value #'s...they are KBB's. If you have an issue with their valueations, feel free to show me some data that supports your point. Since banks, car dealerships, and magazines use KBB to figure things like TCO, this suggests that many people familiar with this industry feel that KBB is a good guide to car resale values. Until you can come up with more than your own personal hunch as to why KBB should be discredited, you're just flailing around in this argument and not making any contact with the issues at hand. And since you've taken this position, you do realize that any effort you make to talk about TCO of cars has been invalidated by your own arguments... congrats.

Kirstie_H · July 2007

OK, we are getting into sillyland again. This is NOT about individual resale values, and we have already done (to death) the resale value v. new argument. Please move on, so Pat & I don't have to spend our Sundays deleting pedantic, nitpicky posts. Thank you.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Please move on, so Pat & I don't have to spend our Sundays deleting pedantic,

Yeah and we don't have time to spend our Sundays looking up multiple syllable words like pedantic. :P j/k

Kirstie_H · July 2007

Cool... then you'll just take my word for it

jeffyscott · July 2007

Was/is a longer warranty a significant factor to anyone? When I shopped, it really wasn't. I thought it would be nice to have a 4 or 5 year warranty, but in the end it really did not matter.

I probably did give a little more consideration, than I otherwise would have to Sonata due to the warranty. Due to the warranty, I even gave very brief consideration to the Galant, but never did even test drive one...partly because the dealer is in an inconvenient location.

Just wonder if anyone bought or is planning to buy model X instead of model Y specifically because of a long warranty. BTW, the only ones in this class that have 5 year full warranty are Sonata, Galant, and Optima, right?

jd10013 · July 2007

didn't even consider the warranty, have had nothing but good experiences with nissan. It took the finance guy 20 minutes and lowering the price twice to get me to take an extended warranty.

elroy5 · July 2007

I think if someone was on the fence between this car, and that car, a longer warranty could make the difference. I doubt it would actually change one's decision from the car of choice to another car. Maybe that's why they don't all have long warranties. Because it doesn't change many minds.

goodegg · July 2007

I'm definitely worried about Nissan.

Worried about what? Nissan's ability to keep up with the strong demand for the new Altima?

I think it's a sweet ride. No worries.

bhmr59 · July 2007

That seems like a contradiction. You say "don't even consider the warranty" and then said you spent 20 minutes dickering over the price of an extended warranty before you bought it.

Sounds to me like you wanted a warranty that was better than what Nissan included as standard.

Hyundai's unmatched warranty was important to me. Four months before I bought my Sonata in April '05, I started researching cars. One of the things that attracted me to test drive a Sonata was the warranty. The more I researched, the more it became apparent that Hyundai was a "player."

My car has been fantastic. Not one thing has had to be adjusted or corrected in 27 months and ~15,300 miles. My brother now has an '07 Sonata, a friend has an '07 Azera (& 2 months after ownership bought his college age son an '02 Sonata w/ 15K miles) and he referred a co-worker who bought an '07 Tuscon.

The warranty is meaningful to some people. I know that I won't be looking at any major expenses for 5/60K and 10/100K for power train (the really major expenses) if something goes wrong. But, so far so good, on the 4 cars I mentioned.

goodegg · July 2007

Not one thing has had to be adjusted or corrected in 27 months and ~15,300 miles.

Jeez - I hope not. I put 15,300 miles on a car in 9 months easy, and would expect zero issues in that time frame also, be it a Honda or a Ford.

elroy5 · July 2007

I paid for an extended warranty once, back in 91. All that $600 got me was a new temperature control knob. If I think the car is unreliable, I don't want. I bought a Nissan, a Toyota, and a Honda since then, and the only one that needed a repair (that would have fallen under extended warranty) was the Nissan. And that one didn't amount to $600, so I came out ahead on that one too.

maxamillion1 · July 2007

The Altima is in strong demand now...but there are some seriously new competitors that will be there.

*New Malibu
*New Mazda6 (that already is sportier than the Altima, and probably will be bigger and still probably handle better)
*New Accord (that's a given PERIOD)

Nissan did a good job redesigning the Altima..but the styling is too evolutionary (I Love my 05, just wish the 07 was better) The interior has some good materials, but the design is lacking visually...

Seems like Nissan is moving away from the "BOLD" designs of the previous generation. Things are too evolutionary now..and the Sentra has got to be the worst looking car to come out of Nissan since the current Maxima.

m1miata · July 2007

I like the style of the latest Altima. I prefer the transmission, and steering of my Accord. I do not like the strange placement of the emergency brake. Style wise, I would say pretty cool and modern. If buying a stick, I would consider one. Is the emergency brake still a foot one though, and placed about where the clutch should be?
Loren

jeffyscott · July 2007

The warranty is meaningful to some people. I know that I won't be looking at any major expenses for 5/60K and 10/100K for power train (the really major expenses) if something goes wrong.

I was thinking about this because my 20 yr old kid totaled the hand-me-down Contour he was driving and will need to replace it. He seems to just want to buy another junker, which I think is the best choice for him. But I have been letting him know his other options. One of which would be buy a car with a 5 year warranty and pay for it over 5 years. The extra expense of interest and the need for collision insurance is partly offset by having no repair costs.

I think for someone with a limited budget the 5 year warranty makes going with a 5 year loan safer. That is assuming they do not drive so many miles that the 5 years become 3 or something.

goodegg · July 2007

The Altima is in strong demand now...but there are some seriously new competitors that will be there.

*New Malibu

I doubt the new Malibu will have much of an impact on Altima sales. The Accord won't either - there are built in sales Honda will always get, and for good reason. Shoot, even the Sonata hasn't made much of a dent in the Accord's armor, let alone the Altima's.

jd10013 · July 2007

That seems like a contradiction. You say "don't even consider the warranty" and then said you spent 20 minutes dickering over the price of an extended warranty before you bought it.

no, It's not a contradiction. I went in to buy my car with no intention of purchasing a warranty. I've owned 2 other nissan vehicles, and never used the extended warranty. not even once. so this time, I figured why waste the money? However, the dealership had different plans. when they gave me the final price, I told them it was high, to drop the warranty. they spent 20 minutes trying to talk me into buying one. we weren't dickering over price. they just kept lowering it because my intial reason for decling it was that it was a waste of money, which, for the most part, i thought it was. But for some reason, the dealership was hell bent on me getting an extended warranty. so, after 20 minutes of them twisting my arm, lowering the price of the warranty, and lowering other charges in order to get the car priced the same with the warranty as it would have been without it.............I gave in and took it.

lilengineerboy · July 2007

Jeffyscott- I think you are very wise for considering insurance costs in that budget. Another thing to consider is how handy or willing to work on the car himself is he? Older vehicles have a "nickel and dime" tendency, but most of those things are reasonably easy to repair DIY. If the Accord (which is old) had to go in for service every time something broke, there is no way I could afford that car and the monthly maintenance cost would be more than a car payment (and perhaps the insurance cost would be offset by not having to spend time repairing it).
At this point, unfortunately my time is becoming more valuable, keeping up with the vehicle repair is getting too much, and that monthly cost is approaching a car payment, so that is putting me in the market for something newer.

jeffyscott · July 2007

Another thing to consider is how handy or willing to work on the car himself is he?

I think he is handy, but unwilling

.

He does have a part-time job, though. He earns ~$150 per week and does not spend much, so he can afford the occassional repair.

So the trade-off is $500-1000 per year in repairs vs. higher insurance costs and car payments. OTOH, if he has collision coverage he will limit his losses should he have another accident.

OTOOH, if he has another accident insurance costs may explode...in fact, that may already be in the works, since it was officially a single vehicle accident. A least nothing was lost but a car, lucky considering he was forced off the freeway and then ended up spinning out of control accross all 3 lanes. I do wonder if ESC might have helped, though

...

urnews · July 2007

if he has another accident insurance costs may explode...in fact, that may already be in the works, since it was officially a single vehicle accident.

You can count on it. Anyone know if mid-size sedans cost less to insure?

lilengineerboy · July 2007

I do wonder if ESC might have helped, though

Yup, it would've kept him going head first straight into the k-barrier :P (I'm just kidding, although that is a reasonable possibility)

It sounds like his experience is typical of where the vehicle off road crashes happen. When the car leaves the roadway and tries to get back on, a bunch of bad stuff starts happening. This is also one of the easiest ways to roll an SUV, as joining the roadway from a low shoulder may be enough to provide the "trip" to roll it. Its very scary stuff.
One of the things they told us at the HPDEs is "if you go off, stay off," which was basically saying if you exist the course (or roadway or whatever) to get the vehicle completely under control (and slowed) before rejoining the roadway; there have been a number of times I have seen a vehicle go spinning off on the inside of a course (with an open field and no obstacles) only to fight its way back onto the course while the driver didn't have enough directional control of the vehicle and would hit the inside wall sideways.

maxamillion1 · July 2007

That may be so.

The new Malibu has all of the goodness of the Aura, plus more, I wouldn't doubt the Malibu too much, considering the Impala outsells the Altima.

If the Impala, with all of it's old technology, can beat the Altima, who's to say a new Malibu couldn't?

Same with the Accord. The Impala is getting close to Accord sales, probably do to fleets. But the Altima is sold in high numbers to fleets as well.

jeffyscott · July 2007

Yes, he probably should have just stayed off on the right shoulder, taken his foot off the gas and let the car slow down. I will mention that to him for future reference. Thanks for pointing this out, it's what I think I have done in somewhat similar situations but had not thought of it.

I am not sure exactly what he did do, I don't think he is either.

jeffyscott · July 2007

Anyone know if mid-size sedans cost less to insure?

It does seem to. Allstate has a "ballpark estimate" feature on Focus was about 10% more than Fusion. With liability only the difference was about 20%. That is odd, you would think liability would be less, the smaller the car is. They do include uninsured motorist in that estimate, but I can't imagine that costs enough to account for the difference.

plekto · July 2007

One of which would be buy a car with a 5 year warranty and pay for it over 5 years. The extra expense of interest and the need for collision insurance is partly offset by having no repair costs.

The truth, though, is that you can get a "beater" that's a perfectly fine car for less than $6000 that's only a few years old. Of course, it will be a Ford or GM midsize sedan, but they are safe and get reasonably well mileage as well.

Say he gets a $9995 Chevy Aveo(5 year drivetrain) - about as cheap as it gets new. It's going to kill him in payments and not be either as safe or as nice as say, an 7-8 year old LeSabre or a 5-6 year old Grand Marquis.

Grand Marquis GS
($6,000)Manufacturer Rebates:
Net Cost: $17,879
That's new.

Used:
http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=221055456
Yes, 6.5 years old and $5995. New makes no sense at all for someone on such a limited budget. I boubt if he's going to abuse it even half as bad a a taxi driver or police officer.

Fuel cost is minimal as well, so mpg is moot. - what he needs at 20 years old is sometihng to get to school and work. He's not putting on 20,000 miles a year(at least I hope he's not - lol)

Actually, I'd go OLD. Classic and dirt cheap to work on. Pre-smog, and pre-computers. Like an old Volvo 140. Engine is bulletproof, rest of the car can be worked on for almost nothing. Get one of the 1976 or older models as there isn't any computers or smog equipment to really speak of. It's virtually the same as a Volvo 240, just with carbs and stuff you can fix yourself.

Or you can always find an older 1970s domestic. Something that loks retro and he can fix and modify a bit - without losing too much value. There's a reason college students tend to drive old heaps like this. Because there isn't anything that gets you areound for less money.

m1miata · July 2007

Those new found sales for the Impala are mostly rental fleet. 53.9% for the first half of 2007 were fleet sales of one sort or another. The Honda Accord was 4.9%, so there you have it, you decide. Altima 16.4% fleet - big deal ! The Impala found some new retail customers when it change the look inside and out. The freshen up was a good one. More advertising and a longer warranty also helped. It however is no match for the foreign competition. The car is what it is. A bit larger, good for a company car or renting for a vacation.

The New Malibu is going to do better than the Aura, no doubt. It has all the Chevy dealerships and a more interesting looking interior, with possibly better pricing off-the-bat. So Malibu does well, Aura is just sort of hanging around and the G6 is due to die off.
Loren

maxamillion1 · July 2007

As I said, if the Impala (regardless of fleet sales) can be sold in great numbers, who's to say a Malibu which is significantly better than the Impala, and better than the Aura can't do the same thing? Each year those fleets sales have went down for the Impala, so it's a sign that retail sales for the Impala are actually improving.

I never mentioned anything about the Accord's fleet sales, which I knew would be low. But I do believe that the new Malibu will be a true competitor, more so of a competitor than the Fusion, Aura or Sonata mainly because of Chevy's big dealer network and the fact that the car is soooo much better than the current model. I also feel that the Malibu's styling is going to attract some people to and that it's interior (with it's elements of cheapness) is unique because it offers so many color schemes.

Some features of the Malibu are missing (Nav, Bluetooth, etc) but I feel the car is going to be competitive otherwise, just like the Aura is...but it will be a MUCH better seller than the Aura because it has a bigger network of dealers, a competitive V6, I4/6spd auto combo on the LTZ, and more competitive pricing than the Aura has.

We'll have to wait it out and see...but in the meantime, as an owner of the previous generation Altima, I'm still worried about the car.

Has anyone seen this pic of the new 'Bu? I'm feeling it.

Either way I can't wait until all these new cars get here! A new Accord in Sept, around the same time we get to see the new Mazda6 in Geneva. By Jan, the new Malibu will be here.

Can't wait to see some comparison tests.

m1miata · July 2007

Nope, fleet sales are rising for the Impala

jeffyscott · July 2007

Say he gets a $9995 Chevy Aveo(5 year drivetrain) - about as cheap as it gets new. It's going to kill him in payments...

After estimating the insurance cost, that alone kills him. So another beater it is...maybe it'll be a midsize

.

baggs32 · July 2007

You can count on it. Anyone know if mid-size sedans cost less to insure?

My insurance went up $48 per year when I traded my Mazda6 S in for the Mustang GT. Howver, I'm not 20 years old like jeffyscott's son either.

m1miata · July 2007

The New Malibu is the most promising of all the cars built off that chassis. What GM needs though is more NEW - UNIQUE cars again. Move ahead of the bunch of other stuff in the market place and get that old we are Body by Fisher top notch in style thing going again. I am thinking a good platform for this is the Aussie cars coming to Pontiac, then Chevy. The New Malibu is a good enough entry, but a bit like an " oh yeah, we can do that too " car. The Aura XE was a mistake, they all should have been the upscale XR and price at $21,999 in the beginning.
Malibu should be the price leader with the i4, then have the 3.6 V6 for say that $21,999 price tag, at the very most.
Loren

benderofbows · July 2007

I thought it would be interesting to post a video of my Accord accelerating from 5 to 80 MPH. This way everyone can hear what it sounds like when it sings its song, sort of share in the experience. We've certainly done enough talking about acceleration, engine noise, etc... now watch the video.

This was filmed at a rest stop. I started rolling at 5 MPH in the truck lane which merges with the car lane that becomes the onramp. You can see a white Expedition pass by in the car lane a few seconds before I begin my run. Before even reaching the end of the ramp, I've caught the Expedition and have to merge all the way over into the fast lane on the freeway, coming up on a car which is going 80 MPH. There was plenty of lane left. It certainly was fun.

LINK TO VIDEO ON CARSPACE

The car feels much faster than the spec sheet suggests. For all the people who say you need a V6 to make merging/passing "safe" or that 4-cylinders can't perform, you've got to try a Honda!

Anybody else want to post a video of what their car sounds like at full throttle? Mazda6, Altima, Aura... what is the merging experience like?

urnews · July 2007

There are two V6s available in the Aura. One is a new design, I believe, and one is an older engine. Which is which?

backy · July 2007

Just wonder if anyone bought or is planning to buy model X instead of model Y specifically because of a long warranty.

No. I can't drive a warranty.

But if multiple cars met my needs in every other respect, then I'd use factors like warranty along with price, dealer convenience etc. to make the final choice. Besides, one can always buy an extended warranty if it's important. So in a way the warranty question becomes a price question.

Besides the Galant, Optima, and Sonata with long warranties, the Verona has a 7-year, 100k transferrable powertrain warranty. And the Elantra (and I think the Spectra also?) has mid-sized room and the long warranty also.

backy · July 2007

Easy to remember: the cheapest Aura model has the older design engine.

maxamillion1 · July 2007

...
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070624/BUSINESS01/706240593/10- 14

m1miata · July 2007

Sales IN TOTAL up 41% and the RETAIL sales are up 27%, so the rest is made up of additional sales to fleet. Trust me, 53.9% or almost 54% going to fleet explains a good portion of the increase and how the overall sales numbers look good when compared to other cars. That is way high, not a good portion for fleet. They gotta do what they gotta do, but I hope the resale values maintain or go up so they do not effect the RWD Aussie Impala when it is up for sale.
Loren

m1miata · July 2007

XE has the 3.5 OHV and a four speed transmission.
XR has the 3.6 DOHC and a six speed transmission. Aluminum alloy 18" wheels, stability control, and let's just say at the end of the day, a better buy than is the XE with the plastic hub caps and cheaper wheels, and old tranny and well, just plain cheaper version of the XR. The XE is not bad, it just is not a great deal. The XR, if found for that $1,750 off discount and if they give you a good trade-in, is not so bad a deal when compared to all the competition. Every car has one or two things better or worse than the next when you start doing all the research and test drives. As a whole the Aura is good - the Accord is good IMHO. The Fusion / Milan is pretty good. Your values may vary.
I would expect resale on the Aura to be lower than an Accord. And while they thought the hot seller to be the XE, more people seem to like the XR than GM had planned. Considering the components in total and performance as a whole, the XR beats out the XE. Not sure why they have this car, since a less expensive New Malibu with an i4 is on the way.
Loren

captain2 · July 2007

I'm definitely worried about Nissan
Nissan has purportedly the PROFITABLE car lines of all the manufactuerers (they do a real good job with platform/drivetrain sharing), the Altima is a solid no. 3 in this class in terms of sales (almost matching the Accord), and also rates very very well in terms of residual values, besting the Accord. And they have perhaps the guy running the outfit available. CR has the Altima as its top rated midsize (tied with the Accord) What's to worry?
While I'll agree that earlier Altimas did not have interiors up to the same quality as Camcords, the new model is much much better. I believe they may have some difficulty however with public acceptance of the fuel efficient CVT - it should either be a big hit or a big flop.

alpha01 · July 2007

I find it puzzling to be " definitely worried about Nissan" based on the new Altima.

Although I can't think of a truly scientific way to judge the success or appeal of a vehicle based on knowledge that is available in the public arena, here's my best attempt:

-CYTD sales of the Altima are up 18.4%
-Fleet sales (most recent available, 6 mo. 09/06 - 02/07) of the NEW Altima are 16.5%
-According to the July 9 Auto News, Factory to Dealer and Factory to Consumer incentives were minimal, and much lower than those for the 06 Altima at this time last year

So, even assuming that every single one of the 2006 went to a consumer and not fleet (obviously not the case), sales are STILL up vs. the '06, and consumers are paying HIGHER prices.

Now consider:
-CYTD through June, Accord sales are up
-CYID through June, Camry sales are up

This shows that while these models still dominate, its not like  in particular re: the Accord  this is a momentary spike in Altima sales due to the lack of appeal from other models. If anything, the fact that the Altima can grow share while the Honda piles on factory to dealer Accord incentives to move inventory, is a sign of strength, in my opinion.

Finally:
- Consumer Reports recently put the Altima (4 and V6) at or near the top of their class. While *I know* that everyone on this board is a far better consumer (so spare me the flaming) and considers a million and one things before purchase, other, less enthusiast-like consumers will see that report, and thats all they need to know.
- The Altima has introduced a coupe for 2008, broadening the appeal to consumers by offering more model variations
- The Altima now offers a hybrid, vs. last generation
- For those who care about safety, ABS is now standard, which I think was one of the most detrimental aspects of the more basic Altimas.

So, based on all of this, where does the "worry" come from?

Certainly while Im not against the continual improving of product, I simply think that the new Altima, to date, is quite successful, and shrewdly positioned for the future  including the new Accord, Malibu, 6, et al.

[If any model launch should give Nissan pause, its the Sentra, and potentially the Versas role in that dramatic sales plummet]

captain2 · July 2007

less enthusiast-like consumers will see that report, and thats all they need to know.
right on the mark here - CR likely the single most influential opinion on any car - whether it deserves to be, or whether we 'enthusiasts' happen to agree with their particular priorities is not the point, it remains a Bible of sorts for many.
The strange part of this - CR was not all that excited about the new Camry except for the Hybrid (of course) but it hasn't seemed to hurt sales - the majority of which are 4 banger LEs.

kdshapiro · July 2007

I don't see this as strange at all. Toyota produces a reliable sedan that appeals to the masses, they understand their target market very well. I applaud them for that.

andres3 · July 2007

Jeez - I hope not. I put 15,300 miles on a car in 9 months easy, and would expect zero issues in that time frame also, be it a Honda or a Ford.

Unfortunately, I've owned a Chrysler conceived Dodge vehicle built in 1994 (95 model) and it required serveral visits in the first 15,000 miles for warranty issues.

I'd expect zero to one issues as well, but we can't always get what we expect (unless your buying Toyota's and Honda's

)

captain2 · July 2007

kd- the question was why - if CRs opinion means so much to the 'average Joe' carbuyer - are more buyers not looking past the Camry? Half a million Camrys is a bunch of cars even relative to Honda and Nissan volumes, never mind all the 'also rans'. Not denying Camry's well justified reputation and/or the position it has developed in the midsize sedan market at all.

alpha01 · July 2007

FWIW, the Camry still finishes VERY highly in CR's rating scheme. It's just that the Altima is at the TOP.

akirby · July 2007

And we all know that absolutely nothing has changed in the american automotive industry since 1994. :confuse:

captain2 · July 2007

As does, of course, the Accord, despite being 4 years young. But it does seem that the American carbuyer seems to value that Toyota trademark smooth/quiet/soft ride more than what CR does.

benderofbows · July 2007

"And we all know that absolutely nothing has changed in the american automotive industry since 1994. :confuse: "

Yeah, in 2004 it was my Ford...

urnews · July 2007

If the Ford Fusion -- or any other mid-size sedan for that matter -- received the highest awards for all categories from all testers and went from 0-60 in 6 seconds flat, delivered 40 mpg in city driving, etc., etc. it still wouldn't create much of a dent in Toyota Camry and Honda Accord sales, IMHO.

Why? Because Camry and Accord have such a fine track record that they get an enormous amount of repeat business from satisfied owners.

At this point, FoMoCo, GM, Chrysler would have to build the best mid-size sedan for 10 years running before pulling even with the Camry and Accord. Their lead is almost insurmountable. Of course, Toyota and Honda know this and continue to improve their products as well.

I believe our 2007 SEL AWD Fusion is every bit as good as a Camry or Accord (better in some respects) but obviously the car-buying public sees things differently.

Midsize Sedans 2.0

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