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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Well, if you call declining sales volume a change, then yes, the American Automotive industry has changed since 1994. Far less market share.

    :P
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    If the Ford Fusion -- or any other mid-size sedan for that matter -- received the highest awards for all categories from all testers and went from 0-60 in 6 seconds flat, delivered 40 mpg in city driving, etc., etc. it still wouldn't create much of a dent in Toyota Camry and Honda Accord sales, IMHO.

    However, it would make a dent, or more than a dent, more like a 360, if they backed the new "improved and better car" with a superb warranty, but not only that, a graduated penalty payment plan for when your car does (if it does) break down.

    See..... people buy Camry's and Accord's because they know they won't break down. Reliability is one of the main selling points of the Camcords. If you put in a warranty for 10 years and 100K, plus you say we'll pay you if you need to use it, and even more if you have to use it a lot, then you'll steal sales away from Toyota and Honda immediately.

    In fact, you'll take an insurmountable lead against their seemingly insurmountable lead. Of course, this requires you to put out a better car, at the same or less cost, will all the warranty and penalty payment plan perks.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually, the Passat tops CR's family car ratings for 4 cylinder cars and the Accord, Passat, and Altima are tied for 1st for V6s. Interestingly, for the 4s the Camry Hybrid, at $30,667 the most expensive 4 cylinder car on CR's list, is ranked 3rd, but the Optima tied the non-hybrid Camry. And on both lists, the five-year-old Accord topped the non-hybrid Camry. So it'll be interesting to see how the new Accord rates.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    No, people buy Camcords because they have a history of satisfied ownership which includes much better than average reliability. Boz is right - a satisfied Camcord owner isn't likely to look elsewhere unless they have a bad experience. It will take years, maybe decades to win over any significant percentage of those buyers unless the Camcords continue to have problems like the engine sludge and transmission problems or the styling, features or pricing get way out of line.

    Ford's best hope is to continue to keep quality high and to continue to make improvements every 3-4 years so that a Fusion owner looking for something new has a new model to consider. If the 2010 model looks just like the 2006 model then current customers will look elsewhere for something new. This is where the Camcords have succeeded the last 20 years. And that's why the 2009 Fusion refresh is so critical.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The answer is simple, most buyers use CR as reference rather than gospel. At least it's that way for me. You also can never really assume you know how the average "JOE" thinks. If the "Average Joe" thought CR was gospel, than sales in this category would be relative to CRs ranking, which we know it's not.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Passat tops the rankings for 4 cylinders by one point, indeed, but IMO is out of contention because of its abysmal reliability rating (reference the black dot). Pending a strong showing by the Altima (and it has never in its history fallen below 'Average' by CR), it will be the highest rated 4 cyl. recommended model..... until the likes of the new Accord, Malibu, et al. are tested. And even if the Altima V6 is TIED at the top (which it is), it is still at the TOP....

    FWIW, the Camry Hybrid is now also available for $25,800, if you can forgo alloys, JBL/6CD, electrochromatic rearview, and the leather, moonroof, and NAV options of the CR test vehicle.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    This is where the Camcords have succeeded the last 20 years. And that's why the 2009 Fusion refresh is so critical.

    I couldn't agree more Allen. The Fusion is a terrific mid-size car but it must continue to be just that in order for Ford to make any headway in this market segment.

    Even if someone other than Toyota or Honda could build the "perfect" car it would probably require a decade or more to overcome the lead now held by Camry and Accord.

    It took years for the Toyota engine sludge problem to surface and even longer for it to be resolved. To be sure, those owners who suffered through this ordeal would never buy another Toyota product. Toyota's reluctance to acknowledge the problem is one reason why I would not buy one of this company's cars.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Weird how the 4-cylinder Passat has an "abysmal" reliability score from CR but the V6 is fine and is Recommended by CR.

    I have a feeling CR will test and report on the new Accord ASAP, since it is so popular, maybe the Malibu also. So the Altima's position as "top-ranked Recommended 4 cylinder family car" could be very short.

    Nearly all (or maybe all?) of the family cars CR tested are available for less than the tested price--almost all for thousands less than the Camry Hybrid's starting price. But an Altima costing $8000 less than the Camry Hybrid out-pointed it. In the V6 group, the Accord was over $4000 less than each of the other two top-ranked cars.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well I had heard of VW's with oil consumption problems, so before considering a Rabbit or Jetta, I thought to ask the salesman what they considered oil consumption under warranty issues. He referred me to the service dept, which confirmed what I had heard that the 8/10 qt. per 1,ooo miles is the limit acceptable. And you break in a VW engine, as in a rather slow break in period, as in these must be old technology engines, IMHO. Too each his own, but I am not interested in these four banger or now five banger engines if they may start consuming oil. Now it is very well possible that broken in correctly, few if any will consume oil. Anyone out there which owned several of these VW's over the years care to chime in? I am going by what you hear off the chat rooms, complaints issued listed on the Net, and just what the warranty considers as excessive. Japan engines use less than a quarter per 5,ooo miles. Not 8/10 qt. every 1,ooo miles.
    Loren
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'd expect zero to one issues as well, but we can't always get what we expect (unless your buying Toyota's and Honda's )

    Eh, not true for me. Before my first tank of gas was gone, I had to have my rear-view mirror (the interior one) replaced in my brand new Accord because the mirror glass wasn't attached to the plastic housing properly (causing a very bad vibration in the mirror). Also, the gas flap fit so tightly, it wouldn't always open on the first push of the lever when it was new, and required adjustment. All within 1,000 miles.

    Brand new Honda. Two (very minor) issues. Honda and Toyota are businesses, not heavenly bodies.

    By the way, I absolutely love my 2006 Accord 4 cylinder. I've got 22,800 miles on it now.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    In the V6 group, the Accord was over $4000 less than each of the other two top-ranked cars.

    It's reassuring to know the car I bought 4 years ago, is still at the top of the heap. I'm so proud. :D What are the chances my next car will be an Accord also? Pretty high, so far.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Those minor issues you had at purchase with your Accord are caused by the Ohioans..... I'm assuming. Was your Accord assembled in Ohio, I'd bet 3 to 1 it was; judging from the assembly issues you describe.

    But even the Ohioans can't screw up superior engineering and parts quality all that much; so the major issues are still rare.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    VW also noted for sludging issues as well as consumption, and it should be noted that Nissan also had an oil consumption issue (on its 4 banger) that led to a recall, something I believe Nissan handled properly. The VW V6 is every bit as high tech and almost as efficient as the Toyota 2GR IMO, don't have any idea why the 'old fashioned' break-in period requirements or FTM why the 4 banger should be showing a poor track record unless, of course, its related to the turbocharged versions. The Passat V6 is one sweet driving car (great power/reasonable FE) combined with some 'tight' handling - high relative price and lower relative resale seem to hurt it. Perhaps it should be included in this group.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Those minor issues you had at purchase with your Accord are caused by the Ohioans..... I'm assuming. Was your Accord assembled in Ohio, I'd bet 3 to 1 it was; judging from the assembly issues you describe.


    Those same Ohioans assembled my 03, and it has "NO" issues in 4 years and 47k miles. So give the Ohioans credit for this one too.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    that's been my point backy...Altima is highly rated now but with a new Accord and more competition I worry.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    WRONG...sales overall are UP 27 PERCENT..Retails sales are UP 41 PERCENT.

    High fleet sales or not, the article still makes the point clear..and makes mine clear too. If the Impala can OUTSELL the Altima (regardless of how high it's fleet sales and rerbates are) what makes one think an Improved Malibu that is much better than the Impala, offers the high volume I4 engine and has a bigger dealer network than Nissan, can't fundalmentally catch up with the Altima?

    Go back and re-read the article. :P

    "Sales of the midsize sedan were up 27% to 144,541 in the first five months of the year, compared with 114,014 a year ago. And while the roomy sedan long has been a staple of commercial, government and rental fleets -- analysts say fleet sales generate about half its sales -- GM said retail sales have provided the largest bump this year, with a 41% increase in year-over-year sales"

    More sales go to fleet overall, but those sales are going down as sales retail sales overall increase.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No need to worry. The Altima won't get worse because other cars get better. More competition will force Nissan to make continuous improvements on the Altima, e.g. for 2008 ABS is becoming standard. And maybe more competition will result in a bit lower prices for the Altima. :)
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    > I am going by what you hear off the chat rooms, complaints issued listed on the Net,

    You know you can't go by what's on the discussion groups. People here say the problems get overemphasized by a few disgruntled posters.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Actually, my Ohio built '06 was much less problematic than my dad's Japanese-built Accord (that car had to have the whole headliner replaced to get to an awful rattle).

    My Ohio-made 1996 Accord has less rattles NOW (174k mi) than his Japanese made Accord was.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I think you hit the nail on the head with this comment: "(insert your manufacturer) reluctance to acknowledge the problem is one reason why I would not buy one of this company's cars".

    I can't speak for anyone else, but I wholeheartedly agree. This is why two of the manufacturers who manufacture cars in this segment are off my list. Not Toyota and not Honda. I would think when you have a bad experience with a manufacturer you might shy away. Toyota IMO has more satisfied customers than any other manufacturer in this segment, even with the sludge problem. Satisified customers, lead to repeat sales.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    OK, I may indeed have gotten the figures backwards. I stand corrected.

    Here are the figures for the first half of this year to compare to Impala:

    RETAIL SALES:
    Impala 68,565
    Accord 155,556
    Camry 177,431
    Altima 106,705

    In this period they sold 80,134 Impalas to fleet. While it is very good that sale to retail is up, due to more aggressive advertising, a make over of the look and new interior, as well as perhaps some sweet deals at the dealerships, the car is not as big a retail player as the rest of its smaller playmates in the field. Impala retail sales will be strong if the new RWD is introduced, and they get everything right at launch time.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    If, or when the New Malibu should outsell the Altima, then what? Actually, it doesn't matter how many GM sell, if it is not for a profit. Seems to me that they are still competing against themselves when offering the G6, then the Aura, and now the New Malibu. I take it the G6 ends once the Pontiac go all RWD drive series. Isn't the Saab 9-3 another car based on this platform of the G6, or visa-versa? Anyway, a lot of cars the same width, which makes the interior a skosh smaller than say the Accord or Camry. I don't care for those darn floor pedal emergency brakes. And support rods for engine hoods are old hat. All in all, the new series is good though, with so far the Aura XR being the value leader when discounted some $1,500 or $1750 during sales. The New Malibu should successfully kill off the Aura XE, and G6 sedans; not sure about the Aura XR.

    The New Malibu should be a good car. Now they need to build an awesome car which looks like an American icon quality again. The shape of the Malibu will be pleasing. Lots of that on the road however from every make in the World. Heck the Koreans have some pleasing looking cars.

    Loren
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Aura, Malibu, G6 (Saab 93). A prime example of spreading yourself too thin. All these different designs, different ad campaigns, and different dealer networks for ONE segment. Not smart, IMO.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I don't know. None of them seem to be faring badly because of platform sharing. If they are faring badly, it would be for other reason (el-cheapo interior in the current Malibu, for one).
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I think if GM concentrated all these separate efforts into making 1 midsize sedan, they could end up with a better car. Sure, they are selling a lot of cars if you add them all up, but they are also spending a lot to make and sell all of them separately.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    I get your point on the Aura, Malibu and G6, but the Saab 9-3 is in different segment from those other three.

    Thankfully within the next few years, GM will make the G6 rear wheel drive, which will essentially leave the Aura and Malibu as the main bread and better sedans.

    That way Aura=Euro sporty
    Malibu=Mainstream
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Agreeing with you on that point. So many sedans could be the very reason we don't see bluetooth, navigation and other options on the current (and future) crop of GM's midsize sedans. GM is making progress though and I expect the company will do a "Nissan" in a few years.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Then how would GM pay all of its Auto workers? :)

    I saw on the evening news that on average, the Big Three pay $72 an hour to employees in salary, healthcare, and benefits.

    The Japanese three (Toyota, Honda, Nissan) pay $48 in America, by comparison. That means Detroiters are paying time and a half compared to the Japanese, but aren't getting any extra effort for their money.

    Sorry for the sidebar, but I thought those numbers were very interesting.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Then how would GM pay all of its Auto workers?

    I saw on the evening news that on average, the Big Three pay $72 an hour to employees in salary, healthcare, and benefits.


    That's part of what I'm saying. GM is paying $72 an hour to build 3 (at least) different cars that compete against each other for the same buyer. Honda pays to design 1 car, build 1 car, and sell 1 car for this segment. Sounds like the most efficient way to do it.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    $72 vs. $48. That's bad decisions from the past still haunting GM today. Do they have to keep making them?
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    My take on this:
    Aura should have been the same as the Opel, sold as such by Saturn, while building the cars here and overseas. There is no real Saturn, as in those funny little plastic cars (no ding doors-neat idea), which were very unique. Those are gone and the new cars are all metal, and versions of other cars.

    Malibu should have been RWD if the new Impala is going RWD and a tad wider inside, sold in three versions, a base i4 for price, a V6 with goodies, and a sport version for enthusiasts. The car should be in a coupe and sedan version, selling from $18,500 to $25,500 range with sport package and goodies. IF the New Malibu is FWD, why then the RWD Impala? Considering the lower end, and it being smaller, perhaps the Malibu is really more of a Nova -- just a thought.

    G6 could be dropped. The Pontiac goes Aussie cars in RWD.

    Saab may always have a following, but those are small numbers, unless they tax the engine displacement in USA. Where is the room mate for Saabs? Is it Cadillac, Ponitac or Saturn? Someone, please adopt this pet.

    CTS should have a coupe model.
    Loren
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Hey folks, do you have dealerships you'd like to review, good or bad? You can review a sales experience with them and/or a service experience. Check it out here: Dealer Rater.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    I don't see Chevy making the Malibu RWD anytime soon. That would be foolish considering the Malibu is a volume seller (fleets and othewise) Chevy has the highest brand recognition and the biggest dealer network.

    Chevy is GM's largest brand and GM as a company needs to keep at least one fully mainstream sedan to compete head to head with the likes of the Accord and Camry. Making the Malibu RWD would be a bad idea. That would leave the Aura as the only real FWD midsize offered and Aura sales are disappointing at best. Also, you have to remember that a LOT of folks don't want RWD. Further, from what I've been reading about the RWD, 2009 (or is it 2010?) Camaro, GM is having a tough time bringing the platform cost down so that a base Camaro V6 can be offered for $25K. That same platform would not be available for a RWD Malibu for about $18.5K. What other RWD platform could they use and remain cost efficient?

    Offering a RWD Full Size Impala and a FWD Midsize Malibu is probably GM's best bet that way you take care of the biggest market of sedans (FWD Midsize Sedans) which Chevy has GOT to be in to be succesful and the growing, revitalized RWD full size market (300, Charger, soon Aussie Fords)

    From what I've read, the G6 isn't going anywhere as far as it's name is concerned. Pontiac is doing the whole "alphanumeric" thing so even if the next Midsize Sedan were to go RWD (outside of the new G8) the name will still end up being G6 b/c they can't call it a G5 or G4. G6 name is likely to remain.

    I'd propose the following:

    Malibu=FWD, offered with I4/6spd combo throughout (Not just LTZ models) and V6/6spd combo as it will be. Malibu should compete completely head to head with the Accord and Camry offering similar options, similar power.

    Aura=FWD, should compete more along the lines with the Mazda6, Nissan Altima, Suby Legacy. Maybe offer AWD on it (if that's possible) Aura should be the sportier alternative to the Malibu, with Euro handling and a more euro looks (from spy shots of the next Vectra, we may get an Aura like this)

    G6=Competely RWD, a poor man's BMW.

    That way no one is stepping on anybody's toes. My question is what happens to the LaCrosse after the Impala get's redesign because aren't they on the same platform?
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Edmunds just completely one.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=121755

    Seems like the main things keeping the Altima from being the winner are slightly lower fuel comsumption, lack of availability and high pricing.

    The Aura Hybrid is pitiful...hope GM can hurry up and get the dual-mode system in it.

    I wonder if Altima sales would be any higher if the Hybrid were more available in other states, especially down in the cities of the SE (Atlanta, Charlotte) and Midwest (Chicago, St. Louis) etc?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That's bad decisions from the past still haunting GM today. Do they have to keep making them?

    That's the part of Ford's plan that people seem to forget. Ford now has 29,000 fewer workers than it had 12-18 months ago BUT these workers left with a one time buyout and thus they are not eligible for any future pension or health care benefits. Ford has $0 future obligation. That will save the company at least $3B next year in expenses and that's not counting any of the plant shutdowns. And this didn't cause any sales reductions - this was excess capacity that wasn't being used anyway.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I think that Dealer Rater needs some work. I punched in my zip code and preferred make and it listed dealers that were way out of my comfortable range and the one that is actually close to me is now closed and the building has been sold to WalMart. There are 3 dealers for the make I chose that are a lot closer to my house and they weren't on the list. I never heard of a couple of the dealers the system listed actually. :surprise:
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I think you will hear from the Help Desk on this, but for any others who might run into these kinds of things, here's how to report it. Go to the Help link at the bottom of the page and then to the Contact Us tab at the top. You can give all the details there and it will be reported to the people who can straighten it out.

    There is no category for DRR (yet, maybe it's coming), so be sure to specify DRR, or Dealer Rater or something in the body of your report to be clear where the issue is.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    In San Diego there is a Cadillac/Saab/Hummer Dealer....
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well then, make the Impala FWD. Pontiac could then be the all RWD and Performance division. Personally, I think while the New Malibu may do well in the market, they are wasting so much time, money and energy taking on Honda and Toyota say, one on one. Just make a cool looking car like the CTS for the masses. People buy for various reasons, but the style is important, if you are not going to extremes to outdo the competition on the track. If they really make those Holden Pontiac imports drop dead gorgeous, then perhaps they will sell like hotcakes. I am afraid other cars like the Aura and New Malibu, while being OK for content have no major look appeal to separate them from all the rest.

    First GM did the head butt routine with VW, then Japan, and now must have a major sized headache from doing so. Leave the head butts for the animals in the wild and do the cool little side step, and dance around the competition while they are left standing in place.
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    They seem to think of Saab as more worthy of a companion on the lot than would be the Buicks?

    Comments:

    Loren
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    $15,000 dollars for an XR fully loaded....
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    You sure are a generous sort. LOL
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Keeping the Impala FWD would also be a mistake because Chevy is GM's biggest, most recognized brand in the US with the biggest dealer network so it's cars have to be able to reach every market. So whereever the competition goes, so must Chevy go. Chevy has to be the "all around brand" for GM with a mix of crossover SUVs, Full size SUVs, midsize FWD sedans (since there are no real affordable RWD midsize family sedans today), RWD full size sedans, Trucks, and of course the RWD Camaro. They also need more competitive compacts, and subcompacts.

    Just out of curiosity, if Chevy were to make a CTS for the masses, what exactly would happen to Cadillac & Buick?

    Truth is exterior styling is not all that important to most buyers. If style was important the Mazda6 & Aura would be better sellers, probably allowing the Altima (which is already a graet seller) to outsell the Camcords. If GM can design a soild, nicely styled Malibu, soon offer a two-mode hybrid, the I4/6spd auto combo on all models (not just the LTZ) and keep the 3.6 competitive, eventually offer bluetooh, nav and dual-zone climate control and I think the car will be successful.

    Pontiac should go RWD competely, but focus mainly on Sport

    Buick should continue to appeal to the older crowd.

    Cadillac go RWD/AWD competely (which they plan to do) and focus on Luxury and performance.

    Saturn should continue to be the "Euro" brand, somewhere between mainstream Chevy and Sporty Pontiac.

    That way GM can focus it's money on marketing and improving cars like the Malibu, Aura, G6 and Lacrosse, while keeping them from competiting with each other head to head.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Chevy / GM should start building a car slightly smaller than a CTS, in RWD for the masses. No, not a CTS look alike, but another very modern, very uniquely styled car, which could be sold for under $24K for the masses. It would not effect the CTS or Buick lines all that much. Well not as much as the New Malibu being the demise of the G6 sedan and the Aura XE base, plastic hubcap models. The next Nova should be stylish, RWD and handle well. For those not interested in these qualities, you have all the rest to choose from. And that is ultimately the problem. Aura is a good car? Well yeah, but there is all the rest. If it had a different look and RWD, it would be kickin' some butt as I type this.

    So who should Saab team up with? Is it Pontiac, Saturn or the current parring with Cadillac?
    Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Have you driven the Aura XR yet? I would value it around $21,999 as a pretty fair value. Sure, a large hit is taken come resale time, but what can you do. I guess if you could get it for say $20K, that would be an equalizer of sort. A fear one may have of owning the XR is that the New Malibu does become wildly popular in the 3.6 model and it sells a thousand or two below the price of the XR Aura. That would hurt. Anyway, Saturn may sell you an Astra for $15,ooo, or maybe not. Anyone know the pricing of the little guy yet?
    Loren
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Aura is a good car? Well yeah, but there is all the rest. If it had a different look and RWD, it would be kickin' some butt as I type this.


    Chrysler has some RWD models, that aren't doing very well. To make a RWD car move, you need V8 power, and with that, you get low mileage. The RWD models with V6 engines are just plain slow. I don't think a RWD car can compete in this segment. Sure, they would sell a few (to people like you) but most people are not hung up on RWD. What is so great about RWD anyway? I don't see the benefit.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The RWD models with V6 engines are just plain slow.

    IIRC, the last test of a Chrysler 300 Touring (with the 3.5L V6) ran 0-60 in 7.3 seconds (in a Car and Driver 6-way comparo of full-size sedans - the 300 placed 3rd of 6). That's not plain slow to me. In fact, it's faster than my Accord, which is plenty peppy.

    What is so great about RWD anyway? I don't see the benefit.

    Bury your right foot in a 2006 Altima 3.5 and you'll suddenly see why FWD has its limits, and RWD has its pluses in the handling department (which is why most sport-sedans are RWD).
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well the Chrysler took off well, but I suppose all those in need of the chop top look, with slab sides have already bought this car. Oh wait, the new Camaro has much the same properties. A V6 with a RWD is not going to be slow. Where did you get that notion from? The Ultimate Driving Machines are all RWD with those inline 6 engines. There are many benifits to RWD. There are some drawbacks too. If New Malibu is to be a FWD on the same platform, then what is the need for yet another car as the Aura? It is the very same car. And it is close to being say a Japan make car. Guess it is hard to explain, but I see a need for some NEW cars if GM is going to get an edge. I applaude Chrysler over the years for trying new ideas on designs. Of course they have to be practical at the same time. I think the new 300 and Charger have too smallish of windows, and perhaps a bit too much bulk look to satisfy enough customers. It did well, but now it may not in the end be well enough. Actually, shape wise, those previous 300M cars were hot looking to me. I little funny in the snout, but mostly a wonderful sporty line. Where is the sporty lines on the new stuff from GM, other than the Solstice and Sky?

    And there may come a day when ANY design without that chop top and high belt line, flat sided car would be welcomed. My goodness, even the old Nova would be more easy to live with. Nowadays one may dislocate an arm simply trying to hand an elbow out the window. And who loves this claustrophobic feel anyway. Raise the roof and lower the doors, please!

    As for how many people prefer the RWD to FWD, it is hard to say. I do think the knowledge about driving, the love of driving and cars, seems to be on the wane. Perhaps a plain old boxy SUV is more than enough style, and FWD vs RWD means nothing. Many can not drive RWD vehicles, which would explain many roll over accidents in my area. These are said to be rare, yet in my area I can listen to the scanner or read off the Net all the accidents as they occur in my CHP area. A LOT of roll over accidents. And on those rare days of rain, a lot of accidents. Maybe to nanny the new generation of drivers, they do need to say with FWD or should I say make more cars FWD or put all the electronic devices on all those RWD cars to keep them upright. Trust me, RWD drives well when the driver drives well.
    Loren about RWD L I N K and L I N K 2
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    As I stated earlier, it won't happen because Chevy does not need a RWD Midsize family car for the "masses" in it's lineup...it needs a FWD family sedan like everyone else is offering. What if Chevy were to produce the particular vehicle that you speak of in VOLUME and it just happened to be a poor seller?

    GM ends up back at Square One.

    In a perfect world, perhaps we'd still have RWD Nova's, BelAir's etc...but the world ain't perfect. And by way of sales, it seems pretty clear that in the midsize sedan world, the majority prefer FWD, especially up north where the notion is that FWD and AWD are better for wintry traction (Whether true or not)

    GM simply cannot afford to take big risks with the Malibu. The Impala is diffentl the 300/Magnum/Charger revived a market that saw a need for RWD Big family sedans.

    Yet after all this time, no company so far has offerd a midsize RWD family sedan in this country? Why? Probably because the perception of the Accord and Camry have pushed people away from that idea. Many of today's buyers have a lack of trust for GM's products, what makes you think buidling a RWD Sporty Nova would make them more inclined to buy it over say the FWD, already established Chevy Malibu? Sure GM would be the only car in that market, but let's face it, GM hasn't built up enough new recognition to be reviving market segments (exception the Camaro) I don't see it happening. You want a RWD family sedan? Go to Aussie or wait on the G8 or next G6.

    And as far as the Malibu hurting G6 and Aura sales, the G6 should be up for redesign a year or so after the Malibu is released, making it RWD (since all Pontiacs will be) and the Aura is hurting mainly because GM didn't have the guts to give the car a 4 cylinder engine and allow it to be the true Opel that it should have been. The Aura is obviously "competive" seeing as it has beaten the Camry in two comparison tests and came close behind the Altima in one as well

    The Malibu will be that much better.

    GM can have two capable FWD midsize sedans (maybe a third one in the LaCrosse) if they design and market them right. One can be mainstream, one Euro-sporty and one Ultra-Luxury.

    And for what it's worth few "Uniquely styled" cars are sold in high numbers to the masses...exception Civic.
    Flops include the Maxima, Quest, Aztec, etc. etc.

    Saab shouldn't team up with anybody, the cars should stick to their fundalmental quirky roots and stay true to their heritage. Plain and simple.

    Bottomline..the FWD Malibu ain't going nowhere...but it would be a much better car if GM would outfit it with optional bluetooth, navigation, dual-zone climate control and more options.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    What is so great about RWD anyway?
    advantages with some disadvatages - the 2 main advantages have to do with vehicle weight distribution which can get close to 50-50 on a well thought out (see BMW) RWD sedan (the reason why none of the cars in this group can ever be a true sports sedan is because 60% (or more) of the weight is over the front wheels), the elimination of torque steer (the inevitable consequence of alot of torque channeled thru the same wheels that are doing the steering). On the other side of the coin is the benefits (traction) of having that extra wieght over the drive wheels in a FWD car, and generally better FE simply becsuse FWD cars tend to weigh less overall.
    It has been so long that RWD sedans have been available to us in the 'mass market' classes that I really think that the consumer would have a tough time readjusting to them particulary those drivers that do have to drive on bad roads. Can you say 'sandbags in the trunk'? And, since FE is becoming such an influence on buying decisions these days, I can't imagine the FWD is going anywhere despite the better natural balance (and corresponding handling benefits) of RWD, although in those areas that aren't afflicted too much with snow covered roads (most of the country) buying a RWD car, if available, seems like a good decision to me.
    IMO, Detroit's future is in 'traditional' V8/RWD layouts much like the 300C and gas prices will largely determine how successful they are. Also IMO, Ford/GM/Chrysler's inabilities to build truly competitive and efficient smaller engines (going all the way back to the 'K' cars and the GM 'X' cars) will doom them to second tier status in this particular vehicle type if for no other reason than FE (with power) sells.
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