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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    So statistics can deceive if people think that they guarantee a reliable car, short- or long-term, just because the average reliability of its brand is a tick higher percentage-wise than another brand.

    Yes, there's no guarantee you'll win the hand when you have 20 in blackjack, but I'd take a hand of 20 over a hand of 17 any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

    A tick higher in reliability??? are you kidding? :confuse:

    If your talking about Toyota over Honda over the years, then perhaps, but if your talking about those two vs. say Dodge or Saab, or even VW, then you had better get ready for more than a few ticks of difference, more like, perhaps, a decent high school football team facing last years Superbowl NFL winners.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    So I wonder if Mazda would ever consider the "active suspension" that the Mondeo will be getting where the driver can change the suspension characterstics (like land rover)? But one thing I've really liked about the current 6's suspension is that it is both firm and compliant where there is not a lot of body roll but bumps rarely show up as being harsh and are absorbed and softened nicely.

    After seeing what Mazda has been releasing over the last 6 years, it's amazing how much they have changed and improved. From a stable of really forgetable cars except the rx-7 to where they are now, Mazda has become a company with soul and a focus to offer fun to drive cars that are stylish and affordable.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Design is also about designing a car to last 20 years and 300,000 miles with minimal maintenance, and virtually no repair costs.

    When you find a mid-sized sedan/family car like that, one that has virtually no repairs for 20 years or 300,000 miles, please let us all know so we can rush out and get one! :)
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Oh I see it now. New Malibu has two grills to the Accord one grill up front. That is quite the difference. Look there is nothing wrong with the basic New Malibu car, as is there is nothing wrong with the New Accord looks wise. They raised the hood on the Accord and thus it looks blockier to you. If you can actually see the hood, on the Accord or any car, I say good - very good, as most all cars these days have no visible front from the drivers seat.

    If you want an example of real Body by Fisher GM style, you must go back to 68
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I think there's a lot of early 90's Accord's out there that will reach that goal in a few years time.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I guess. I think of a true box as the 1965 car. Recall how all had the sharp edges. Today, a box is rounded so, it is so aerodynamic it looks smooth to me. And the top swoops down in back. Now the '65 Falcon is a box. Oh yeah, some of the old Fiats and BMW. How about the kind of box, the Volvo's of days gone bye? The Audi 4000 and 5000 were very popular as the rounded edge box designs. Ford loved it and copied it as the first Taurus design, which was so very popular. Maybe Honda is just doing this Accordantly. ;)

    just trying to be helpful, Loren
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    When the new 6 arrives to the US, they won't be 2008MY, but rather, 2009MY.

    Both the Sport Wagon variant and MazdaSpeed6 are dropped for the 2008MY (US market). No word yet (obviously) what the lineup will be when the new version hits in 2008 as a 09MY.

    The reason for two trims being dropped having much to do with demand/supply than anything. I know Mazda originally planned to sell 140K of the 6 annually, well, they are well short of such goal (I think they are averaging about 70K, which is even less than the 626, IIRC). This should help, however.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    There are talks this version might not come to the US. This might be Euro-only (maybe the domestic market as well). We shall see what happens but if this is true, then it would be a similar situation as the Euro Accord (TSX) and NA Accord.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think there's a lot of early 90's Accord's out there that will reach that goal in a few years time.

    With enough money, sure. There are 2 on Craigslist right now in my area with blown oil seals (a $1200 repair at the dealer including the timing belt service - btdt). I 'm not complaining, the car is 15 years old, but a Neon will make it to 200k if you replace the head gasket when it goes.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    I really like the looks and specs we have so far of the new Mazda6. I, too, am excited to hear that the new body style will weigh less than the current model. Coupled with the increases in horsepower, this new Mazda should be formidable. Any word on pricing?

    I just hope that by the time a manual transmission model hits my local dealer, they will have forgotten about the Mazdaspeed Mazda6 and MX-5 which I drove but didn't buy, and they will let me drive one of the new 6's...
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    LOL..... where are there Neons with 200,000 miles.... show me two....

    A Neon would have to have head gaskets replaced 4 times already to reach 200K. It would also be on its 4th transmission, and I'd assume the engine wouldn't last that long either.

    I know for a fact the body won't last that long, the suspension, the frame, and the entire car basically start to disintegrate at around 5 years or 60,000 miles.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Since when is a Neon a midsize?

    And for the record, there are at least 3 Neon's in the parking lot where I work with 200,000 miles plus and they all have original headgasket and engine and only one of them is on the second transmission.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >The Accord has been getting worse looking with each generation for some time now so this is no surprise. They dont want the car to offend an aging buyer base. Makes sense I guess.

    The 2003 with the oddly canted side profile for the rear was the worst. The refresh where they copied the LaCrosse/Impala taillights helped improve the looks.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Can we PLEASE not start up this conversation again with the 300K Accord vs. a Neon (or whatever)? It was boring and pointless the first time around...
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I agree, how many 300K Mazda's are out there?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Know any owners of those? I'd like to find out how they got through 20 years w/o any repairs--or "virtually" any repairs I should say. My two pampered Hondas couldn't make it through as few as 3 years w/o a repair. One had a clutch, muffler, and A/C condenser go out and major rust appear within 5 years. :(
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Yes, I have an old friend who last I checked in with had a Honda Accord with 280,000+ miles and it was running strong (in fact he showed me how strong when he got it up to about 115 MPH on the freeway).

    Of course, I do believe he got a 2006 Honda Accord EX, so he probably traded it in back then.... but let me get back to you on that....

    Clutches are a wear item, like brakes. By virtually no repairs I think I mean no repairs costing $1,000 or more.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I think they just dropped for the 2008 short run and bringing them back in 2009 which the latest I've seen is going on sale around May or June. Yeah, the Sebring looks like a hatch without the benefits of a hatch!
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Clutches are a wear item, like brakes. By virtually no repairs I think I mean no repairs costing $1,000 or more.

    That pretty much excluded everything except a blown engine or bad tranny. I don't even think a shot suspension will cost over one grand.

    On a second thought, maybe it will...
  • frankinbeansfrankinbeans Member Posts: 20
    Not quite 20 years, but my father has an 14 year old Accord with 178K with no repairs. He did have to replace wear and tear items such as the tires (4th set), 2 mufflers, brakes pads several times(no rotors), and timing belt/water pump @ 90K. He's changed the oil every 3-4K miles, annual air filter change and replaced the spark plugs twice and that's it.

    Absolutely no mechanical repairs in the 14 years he's owned it. His front windows stopped working earlier this summer however. But he seems to live with it and is determined to get 200k before he gets another car.

    I've driven it a few times and the motor is still strong. Interior is shot though and the rear panels are rusting.
    I'm hoping he'll get to 200k w/o having to replace the timing belt.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    "Virtually no repair cost" means up to $999 per repair? Give me a break.

    Although a 1986 Accord going 115 mph is pretty darn good. But it's one car. I see Buick Centurys of that vintage driving around all over town. It's been years since I've seen a Gen 3 Accord.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    A water pump is not mechanical? It is software perhaps?

    So he has only 6 years and 122k miles to go to make it to that magic 300k and 20 years with virtually no repairs. Good luck to him!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    For just a little bit, maybe a day or so, let's not post about the Accord at all!!

    There are so many other cars in this segment that the constant arguing debate about the Accord seems so silly. There are several other tired old beaten-up horses that would also very much appreciate a break.

    Challenge: try some new cars for a change. Just for a day or so. We can leave out the three or four regulars for a bit and see what else would be good to debate compare.
  • jeffp12jeffp12 Member Posts: 5
    A "mechanical repair" implies that something was broken. Replacing the timing belt and water pump is part of scheduled maintenance. You have to remove the timing belt to replace the water pump, so they are typically replaced at the same time.
  • jeffp12jeffp12 Member Posts: 5
    I agree that the updated 06/07 Accord taillights were an improvement, but, unless Honda has ESP, the 2006 Accord taillights couldn't be a copy of the 2006 Impala taillights. The LaCrosse taillights are similar, but not that close.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OK, thanks for the explanation. I've never owned one of the cars that includes water pump replacement as scheduled maintenance.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Timing belts go for at least 90k miles (even more now), so it's usually the second owner who has it done. If you have the ability to change it yourself, it's cheap maintenance. :(
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I wouldn't want to be in that car going 115...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Ok,

    Who here owns a Galant, Legacy, or Optima?

    You've been awful quiet; tell us about it!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >06/07 Accord taillights were an improvement,

    I agree with you on that. And for the other I don't know the development timeline for taillights on Impala vs. Accord. There may be someone who knows that no previews of Impala or Accord were proposed early enough that one copied the other. The LaCrosse is an effete application of the shape; the Impala and Accord are crisp and masculine. I just think it's humorous they look so similar. Good taste.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I don't know about the 3 part rear side windows.

    It looks to me like maybe the last "window" section is actually a black plastic filler piece. Something that they use on the current 5-door, but not the sedan (which has only glass for the side windows).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, they may last 90k miles, but in most states they are on the manufacturer's maintenance schedule for replacement every 60k miles. If you happen to have a car with a warranty beyond 60k (as do several of them in this class), and you don't replace the belt around 60k and it breaks after that, say at 90k, good luck trying to get the engine repairs covered.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    In my owner's manual for my 1996 model, it states 90k. That's all the evidence I need to tell me 60k isn't necessary.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Well, they may last 90k miles, but in most states they are on the manufacturer's maintenance schedule for replacement every 60k miles. If you happen to have a car with a warranty beyond 60k (as do several of them in this class), and you don't replace the belt around 60k and it breaks after that, say at 90k, good luck trying to get the engine repairs covered.

    For those of you who "REGULARLY" drive your (7th gen V6 only) Accord in temperatures above 110 degrees F, or below -20 degrees F, you should change your timing belt at 60,000 miles. For the rest of us, we can change ours at 105,000 miles.

    Do you live where these conditions exist? If you do, I feel for you. :cry:
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    Well, legally - from a title and insurance point-of-view - I own a Galant, but it's really my son's car! It has been totally reliable, even though he's rather tough on it and quite negligent on routine maintenance. Currently, it has 165,000 miles on the clock, and it just keeps going (it's a 1996). The last maintenance was a timing belt, water pump, and P.S. pump a few months ago.

    It's been a good car for him, really bullet-proof. We bought it used in June 2001, and it's never let him down, nor been in the shop, except for preventive or proactive corrective maintenance. The 2.4L balance-shaft I4 doesn't burn any oil, but it leaks a bit from the distributor seal off of the cam cover. And, the 4-speed automatic still is original and shifts fine.

    Oh, and on the previous post, we see -20F occasionally here, but only 100F rarely, more like 95F. Still tough conditions for most vehicles.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    I think this pic shows it to be glass...unless you're talking about the "tip".

    image

    If you want to see a blind spot in the rear 3/4, sit in the current Accord Coupe!
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    quote: "For just a little bit, maybe a day or so, let's not post about the Accord at all!! "

    OK, I guess we could do that Accordingly. Oh doh!

    :blush:L
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Timing belts on interference engines...why do they do that? How much would it cost to have a chain?

    Does Honda still do this with the Accord? Any others in this midsize group that have a timing belt and an interference engine?
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    I agree with you. In my area I see a lot of late 80's Buicks and Oldsmobiles running around, but, no similar vintage Accords or Camrys.

    Regards:
    OldCEM
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I have read that in CA and some other states, the timing belt replacement interval is 105k miles, but in many other states (such as MN) it's 60k miles. Maybe in colder states, where the temperatures can get below zero (and also over 100, sometimes it seems in the same week :sick: ), the manufacturers adjust the maintenance schedules accordingly (Pat, that last was NOT a mention of the Accord).

    Actually, I don't have to change the timing belt on one of my vehicles at 60k because it has a timing chain, which many vehicles in this class have. They wear out eventually, but go far beyond 60k miles even in the Great White North.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The current V6 Accord has a timing belt. I think it's because a chain would be too long and heavy. A belt is lighter, so it takes less hp to turn. The benefits of the belt obviously outweigh the cost of changing the belt every 105k miles. Since I am mechanically inclined enough to change it myself, I can do it pretty cheap. :D
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    The front looks similar to the Mazda3; side is a complete fascimille of the new European Mondeo and the rear a Chrysler Sebring lookalike. Interior pictures are not clear; hopefully Mazda can put better quality plastics there than the current 6, as well as good engines. I would be interested in knowing what 4 cyl they use for this iteration. V6 seems to be covered.

    When are other details to be released? Frankfurt?
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "If you want to see a blind spot in the rear 3/4, sit in the current Accord Coupe!"

    Why compare a sedan with a coupe? A swoopy coupe will have more blind spots than a sedan or a hatchback.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    because a blind spot is a blind spot and it's part of the list above.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I saw a first generation Prelude today.

    As for those late 80's Buicks and Oldsmobiles you mentioned, maybe they just look that old?

    the preceding was a test of the national 1487 alert system.....this was only a test!
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The strange new blind spots are cars with side air bags. A good safety feature, except for those which happen to run into or over someone. :surprise: due to those fat A pillars. You gotta swing and sway the head some times to see what could be hidden otherwise.
    L
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    Okay, so would it be fair if I said that the Mazda RX8 has big blind spots? Especially in this context?

    Compare apples to apples, not oranges.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    the rx8 is listed in the cars above?!?! I think that might be a different category....

    Look, someone mentioned that the c-pillar in the mazda pic looked like it may not be glass so it would make a huge blind spot. I showed a pic that showed the 3rd window was glass, and mentioned that there was a car that is included in the list of cars at the top of this thread that has a huge blind spot which is one of the reasons I did not buy it. The fact that this car happens to have a name Honda Accord makes it a topic that's fair game. And why are you so sensitive to my talking about a car that you think should not be in this discussion yet cars like the civic and 20 year old cars are brought up without your saying a thing? Of all the things to become sensitive about you get upset about me talking about the Accord coupe's huge blind spot...
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    The K24A (2.4L I4) in my 2007 Accord has a timing chain.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    I don't understand why everyone isn't using timing chains instead of belts. It's not like it's brand-new technology.

    A belt is lighter, so it takes less hp to turn. The benefits of the belt obviously outweigh the cost of changing the belt every 105k miles.

    Yeah, right.

    The ONLY advantage a belt has is initial cost. Yes, a chain may weigh a pound or two more, but if you compare two EXACT engines, one with a belt, one with a chain, the HP difference would be negligible at best. Plus, the chances that a chain will leave you stranded compared to a belt are slim to nil.

    A belt is just another way for automakers/part makers/mechanics to make $$$.
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