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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    And since this IS all on a Sonata site how about those too. I was beginning to wonder if Accord/Camry are the only cars worth debating (yeah ACCORDing to some [no pun intended] they are) but I know better.
  • falmouthfalmouth Member Posts: 30
    With this reasoning how do you explain that the less expensive I4 in an Accord uses a chain, where the more expensive 6 cylinder Accord uses a belt ? Engineering wise there must be a reason and it doesn't seem to be cost.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Tell us about your rental Sonata and Optima that you mentioned in another discussion.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    The RX8 has been mentioned in this forum before. Anyway, my point was that one can't compare a coupe's blind spots with a sedan's, and not that the Accord coupe is not a part of this discussion.

    Now, if you were comparing the Accord coupe's blind spot with the Altima or G6 coupe's, that would be a different matter.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    I personally am all for timing chains; however the reason I believe that belts were predominant till recently was the smoothness imparted by a rubber belt compared to a metal chain (NVH). In cars from the 50s vintage, I believe all cars used to have chains, and later on these were replaced by rubber belts.

    Today, that is not the case, most of the disadvantages of chains are gone, so we see more and more engines with chains instead of belts.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Who here owns a Galant, Legacy, or Optima?

    When I bought the Contour, within 2 days I was totally sure I made the right choice. I loved that car. '96 SE V6 with a stick and loaded...man that car was so fun, and the seats were incredibly comfortable. Anyway, that car got replaced by a '05 Legacy wagon 2.5i stick for my family. Again, within a couple of days, I knew I had made the right choice. It does everything I could possibly ask of it, returns good fuel economy, and has been flawless since we got it. Mileage is strong (real world mileage has been comparable to its FWD counterparts), it has a wagon body style that has proven very useful, it tows a small trailer with no issues, visibility is very good and the seat height adjusts which is important because my wife is so short. I even like the headlamp cut off pattern.
    The only things I don't like are the way the infant seat fits in the middle spot and the lack of space left over for other booties in the back seat. I also wish I had gone up 1 model to the 2.5i Limited for the heated seats/mirrors and sunroof.

    ** edit ** I forgot to mention, the car is fantastic in foul weather, even with the below par RE-92s
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    If you are going to post pictures, can't you at least have the courtesy to learn how to size them, so they fit on the pages properly.? :mad: :confuse:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I think one of the reasons belts dominated for awhile is that they are quieter. But lately it seems chains are dominating the new engine designs. For example, Hyundai/Kia is now using chains on both their new I4s and V6s, but still using belts on the older engines e.g. the Beta II.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The Contour had a timing chain, the only time it required a hook was when the water-pump failed. The water-pump had failed under warranty and was replaced at that time as well, so timing chain and 3 water-pumps, one of the a catastrophic failure.
    The Accord has had 3 water-pumps, each replaced at the timing belt service.
    Total bill for Ford Contour $580 + 12 towing ("repairs"), total bill for Honda Accord $1800 ("maintenance").
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    back when I had my Legacy, I had to take it in for service and was given a 2005 4 cylider auto w/ manumatic for a loaner and I was very impressed. I liked the interior, especially the gauge cluster. During my lunch break, I decided to take it for a spin and was very impressed with it's handling. Much like my 1996 Legacy GT, the steering was very direct and positive while torque at lower rpms was decent making coming out of corners pretty fun. I'd imagine having a manual would be the better way to go though. Still, the car was quiet but not isolated; a great car with a lot in common to the sonata and accord.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    f you are going to post pictures, can't you at least have the courtesy to learn how to size them, so they fit on the pages properly.?

    They aren't my pictures so I don't control the size - I only link to them.

    On my 14" laptop the pictures are only 7.5" wide and they fit just fine on my 12" wide screen.

    Maybe you need to adjust your settings.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Much like my 1996 Legacy GT, the steering was very direct and positive while torque at lower rpms was decent making coming out of corners pretty fun. I'd imagine having a manual would be the better way to go though. Still, the car was quiet but not isolated; a great car with a lot in common to the sonata and accord.

    I concur, the NVH characteristics are very different than the '07 Accord EX. I like the way the Subie kicks a little when you turn it on, since the engine is longitudinally mounted, and the flat-4 growls a little more. Its definitely a more connected, tactile driving experience.
    The Accord, with the exception of wind and tire noise, is pretty darn quiet. I actually like the noise it makes when you turn it on, because that is pretty much the only indication there is an engine in the vehicle.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    I think I am with you on this, I would think "virtually no repair cost" should be in the under even $500 range, of course, not counting normal wear/tear items. Repairs up to $1000 seems way too high to be "no repair cost" to my way of thinking. I have come from an entirely different time era though, so maybe what I think really doesn't count in this forum any more.
    van
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think I am with you on this, I would think "virtually no repair cost" should be in the under even $500 range, of course, not counting normal wear/tear items. Repairs up to $1000 seems way too high to be "no repair cost" to my way of thinking. I have come from an entirely different time era though, so maybe what I think really doesn't count in this forum any more.

    I agree that 1k is a lot to be no repairs, unless its a total dollar amount spent. Even $500 adds up if its a monthly expense. That is what happened with the old vehicle, is the average monthly repair/maintenance cost got too close to the car payment of something new.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Thank you for replying, sorry if that is the case. My settings (1024/768) are fine on every other location however. On THIS SITE ONLY, my monitor seems to have problems with many pictures that "blow" the entire page, and it is a 19" monitor. Whatever the problem this site frequently receives photos that are too over-sized, and the host usually mentions how to correct the problems. Sorry, but it just really bugs me when it happens.
    van
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I like the handling of the Legacy too. Also the AWD is a plus (also a minus, for FE). I actually looked closely at the Legacy last year when prices were really good. But the tight back seat was the main blocker for me. Also I realized I don't need AWD very often, and I was not willing to pay the FE penalty for the few times I'd use it. I also thought the ride was a little harsher (and noisier) than I'd like, considering all the bad roads I have to drive on every day.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Actually, they probably are too wide for many people. When that is the case people have to scroll from left to right to read every line on the page that contains them. One way to fix it is post them on your CarSpace page and then use the automatically generated code to display them here. That way they'll be the correct size.

    I've looked at them with two computers - on one the page was fine and on the other the page was skewed.

    Here's a tip for anyone having to scroll left to right in a situation similar to this. If you click on the message number following the pictures, the page will redisplay starting with that message which gets the pictures off your page. At least you can then more easily read the messages that follow.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That sounds like a browser problem. Next time I'll just post the link.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Yes, I was talking about what you must be calling the "tip" (I had meant to say that the side windows actually seem to be 4 parts, but the 4th looks to be black plastic).

    I didn't mention it because of possible blind spots (that's what side mirrors are for) but because, if they have the plastic filler piece, they cheaped out on this in the new sedan model. It's not a big deal, but how much would it cost to just have glass there? Or if you don't want the cost of the odd shaped glass, then don't design the c pillar like that.

    It's still not clear to me whether it's plastic or glass...if glass, it is kind of wierd to have two little pieces back there.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Your pictures appear fine to me.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Thanks for the info. I bet something like 600 pixel width would fit nicely. Speaking of fitting nicely, is there such a thing as too big for smaller and mid-size classed cars. I am not sure if I am in the majority, or minority here, on the issue of size but it seems to me like a small car or a mid-size car blown up, as they are once again doing, is simply wrong. If I want to buy a tank or a land yacht I would do so. I happen to live in a city with narrow streets, so a car like the CTS fit pretty darn good. It is a mid-size car, or at least it was. An inch or two difference is not going to render the car impossible to navigate or park in those narrow space, but it means they are on the track for super-sizing. Seems like if the Civic grows any more, it will be a mid-sized car, and the Fit no doubt grows to replace it. How silly is that? Plans for the new Camaro and Challenger cars call for a monster width nearing 80", which is pretty much truck width or some barge like a Town Car. What's up with that? I thought super-sized Pony car, as in too large Mustang killed sales back in the early 70's. They took a wonderful sporty size, then kept growing into something it was never meant to be.

    There is the value of the SUV and Minivan, as mass people movers, they fill the gap left from the largest of cars in width leaving the market.
    I personally, as in IMHO, see most cars, even the new Impala as better if they keep width and length under control, and leave the 5 to 7 passenger capacity to say the minivan. This is not to say a mid-sized or large car or today can not carry five, or possibly six people, but are they in great comfort, or feel more like a hostage? I have a mid-sized car, and it could carry five across town, but I would not want to go cross country. There is no way I am wanting this car though to be larger, and I here it grew an inch taller and three inches longer. To me that is alright, if you want a large car. It is no longer a mid-sized. Let the SUV/Minivan/Crossdresser vehicles carry the massive loads, IMHO.

    One more thing on size. Not sure the Epsilon GM cars need an extra inch in with as much as possibly narrowing that central area of the console so the knee doesn't hit there or rests easier there, when the foot is on gas. This could be a case where adding an inch is needed, unless it can be done on the inside only. Maybe both, an inch overall car width and eke out an extra inch inside in addition for add a couple. Just a thought. I find the Aura to be pretty comforatable, but a little change wouldn't hurt, especially in this super-sized world of cars and people. :shades:

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I like the handling of the Legacy too. Also the AWD is a plus (also a minus, for FE). I actually looked closely at the Legacy last year when prices were really good. But the tight back seat was the main blocker for me. Also I realized I don't need AWD very often, and I was not willing to pay the FE penalty for the few times I'd use it.

    We were primarily shopping the Legacy against the Accord, and the 23/30 vs 26/34 was okay with us. Now that we have one of each, the mileage seems pretty much the same in real world driving. We also liked the wagon body style.

    I also thought the ride was a little harsher (and noisier) than I'd like, considering all the bad roads I have to drive on every day.

    I agree, the ride is firmer than the Accord, and it is definitely a more active driving experience. This was one of the things we really liked about it...one man's pain is another man's pleasure?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    If your mirrors are adjusted correctly you really shouldn't have a blind spot in any car. I was talking to a friend and they were talking about a blind spot. I told them to lean towards the center of the car and adjust the passenger side mirror so they could see the other lane. When they leaned back to driver postition they said they couldn't see the side of their car. I said why do you want to see the side of your car, the object is to see the other car, not yours. Same thing on the driver side. Lean over to where your head hits the window and adjust the mirror out so you see the lane next to you, not the side of your car. I find that when I adjust the mirrors like this I can drive looking pretty much straight ahead and if I'm in the middle of three lanes I can see the lane behind and both sides by glancing at the mirrors. I might lean a couple of inches but I certainly don't have any blind spots. I noticed this when I would drive the car after my wife drove it. The mirrors would be angled so far in towards the car I couldn't believe it. I find lots of people need to see the side of their car through the side mirrors and that just isn't the point.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Here are some counterpoints.

    Setting Outside Mirrors to the Correct Angle
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Design is more than about just aesthetics. Design is also about designing a car to last 20 years and 300,000 miles with minimal maintenance, and virtually no repair costs. "

    actually that is engineering, not design. I dont care if my car last 20 years since I'm not keeping it that long. Dont act like most imports stay on the road that long either. No need for the hyperbole to hype up the durability of imports.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    there is nothing "wrong" with the 2008 Accord's styling but unlike Chevy it appears they put minimal effort into the design. Its obvious that design wasnt a high priority on that car. The Malibu may not be the greatest design ever but effort was made and its generally thought of as an attractive car. The accord seems to be modeled after the 2006 Sonata.

    BTW, my car has a hood that is visable from the driver's seat. Dont think that is exclusive to the Accord.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Yep, been doing the side mirrors sort of that way for years. But I think the way to do it is lean your head over and then adjust that mirror so you can just see the side of your car. Then when your head is back in the center you won't see the side of your car, but will have little or no blind spot (The front of a passing car will appear in your peripheral vision before the back of it leaves the side mirror).

    And if I do need to see the side of my car, such as backing around something I can do so by leaning my head over.

    Another advantage of this mirror setting is you don't get headlight glare, via the side mirror, from cars that are directly behind you.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Appreciate the link. I understand the arguments against the "new way". However, if you draw normal width traffic lanes around the vehicles you can see that the vehicle with mirrors adjusted traditionally would leave huge blind spots directly in the lanes to the right and left. I have used this new method for thirty years and I have never failed to keep track of a vehicle in my rear view mirror as it moves and is then picked up in the side mirror. Same as when the overtaking vehicle moves out of view in my side mirror it is then showing in my peripheal vision.

    In the illustration for vehicle one, it seems that the total of all mirrors views end up directly almost within the same lane directly behind the vehicle.

    This could be something that seems to work for me and maybe I've been lucky to avoid any accidents involving not seeing a vehicle when changing lanes or similar maneuvers.
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    As pat notes I recently commented on the 4 cylinder 2.4 liter engines used in both Kia Optima and Hyundai Sonata on another topic thread in this site. My original post/reply was directed at comments by a 2007 Sonata owner who felt his car didn't have enough power. He lives in western Pa which is mountainous and I noted we traveled to western Pa using rented Optima's and Sonata's at various times recently. Some here may remember that at the time I had sort of an informal comparison between the Optima and a Ford Fusion (both 4cyl. automatics) that I subsuquently rented after turning in the Optima.. Anyhow I commented that I felt the Optima/Sonata both felt sufficiently powerful even with 4 passengers and their luggage climbing the Allegheny mountains. Both felt, dare I say...snappy...from a dead stop. And despite all the talk about "refinement" when discussing engines and how Honda/Toyota have a "lock" on that particularly tenuous property the Hyundai 4 was just as smooth at idle (quiet too) as any Camcord I have seen. Quiet too when accelerating. The transmissions on both cars shifted smoothly and did what transmissions are designed to do..be in the right gear at the right time. I grew up during the great muscle car era and owned a few myself. I believed "too much power is never enough" and to this day prefer a V-6 when both a 4 along with a V-6 is offered on a particular car. Having said this some modern 4's are tempting me because they are more than adaquate. I wonder if Honda in offering a 200 HP 4 cylinder for the newest Accord will prompt a 4 cylinder horsepower race??
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    You pretty much described exactly what I do but got it across better. And ditto on headlight glare.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I wouldn't say the Accord is modeled after the 06 Sonata. I would say that the Sonata and the Accord are both chasing Camry. I believe that is why they both are and have grown so much in size. They see Camry selling a boatload(trainload, sorry they're made here now) so they are being copied to someb> degree.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The accord seems to be modeled after the 2006 Sonata.

    I really doubt that. Although there is some resemblance to the Sonata's tailights, there's very little resemblance overall. Even if there were, it would be coincidental. It's clear to me that Honda wanted to make the new Accord look more upscale, more like an Acura (side character line) and BMW (rear greenhouse) while meeting new regs for pedestrian safety (front end), while keeping the overall look inoffensive to most buyers (i.e., bland, because bland sells in this market).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Let me guess... you don't drive in the Rust Belt, with roads that are pockmarked with potholes (some big enough to swallow a Mini Cooper) and lots of large cracks and tar strips, very often, yes?

    Firm ride is great on smooth, curvy roads... like those the auto mag testers frequent. Or racetracks. On the imperfect highways and byways of much of America, a too-firm ride can indeed be one man's pain.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Actually design is part of engineering if you want to be specific.
  • dsiriasdsirias Member Posts: 34
    There is a Mazda 6i loaded touring I wish to buy. There is $ 1750 cashback incentive. Invoice is roughly 22,103. There are also some options on the car. Destination charge is $595. It all adds up to $22,786.
    Edmunds TMV is 23,121, which is a few hundred over invoice AND destination. But in the real world does not the dealer ADD destination charge to the sales price before subtracting the incentice? I ask because if that's the case, would not a fair sales price be few hundered over the "invoice." Thoughts?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I don't see where GM designers spent more time designing the Malibu than Honda designers did with the Accord.

    The Malibu has a traditional 2 part grill chevy front end which looks like an bloated Cobalt. The side profile was lifted directly from TL with the rear end resembles the Mitsu Diamante. Original design? I don't think so.

    The Honda Accord in every way resembles the 5-series (except the front, which looks Saturn to me), also not an original design.

    Both cars at best can only be considered as good design that's easy on eyes.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The accord seems to be modeled after the 2006 Sonata.

    The '08 Accord looks nothing like the Sonata.

    Honda designers already admitted that they were heavily influenced by the 5-series both inside and out.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I agree, I think that link exaggerates any problems. I have also checked many times and, just as you indicate, the front of the car appears in the side mirror before the back leaves the rear view mirror. I don't see a problem with needing to move my head around in parking, much rather do it in that very slow speed situation than when driving 70 mph on the freeway.

    Motorcycles are always going to be harder to see, no matter what you do with your mirrors. As a former rider, I was always well aware of this and spent as little time as possible next to any vehicle in a spot where I could only be seen if the person were to turn his head or look in a mirror.

    I do still take a look before changing lanes, I just have more confidence that I know what is around me when I can see everything at all times, without the need to turn and look.

    So anyway, "blind spots" in midsize sedans are not an issue for me :) .

    Now, the trend toward toward super-high (and super short) trunk lids...that is one I don't like. I don't want to have to slide things in the trunk horizontally and the visibility when backing up is better if the trunk lid is not so high.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Thats funny because around 100-115 MPH it started to get unstable even though it was Interstate 5 and straight as an arrow. :surprise:

    He only had it at 113-115 MPH for a split second, and got it back down to where it wasn't feeling unsafe and unstable.
    :D
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    No, it's a combination of font size and screen resolution. The key question is did the picture widen the area where the posts appear. If it widened it more than an inch or so, a lot of people (not everyone, but don't forget we have a whole lot more lurkers than we do posters) will have trouble viewing the page.

    A link will be fine if that's what you want to do, but posting on your page would take care of it as well and you could still have the picture appear in the discussion.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Yes, I agree my 1K estimate for "virtually no repairs" is high. I guess I was used to my domestic vehicle that always had 2 or 3 problems by the time I took the time to take it in for service repairs every 2 to 3 months. So a broken AC might be 750 dollars, but the timing belt the compressor just burnt needing replacement pushes that up to 1,000.

    Anyway, I guess we can compromise and say virtually no repairs is anything under $600, and furthermore does not occur with any regular frequency (less than biannually).
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Let me guess... you don't drive in the Rust Belt, with roads that are pockmarked with potholes (some big enough to swallow a Mini Cooper) and lots of large cracks and tar strips, very often, yes?

    Michigan, actually

    Firm ride is great on smooth, curvy roads... like those the auto mag testers frequent. Or racetracks. On the imperfect highways and byways of much of America, a too-firm ride can indeed be one man's pain.

    Yeah, you know I live in the same town as Car & Driver's headquarters and can't seem to find the beautiful roads they have in the pictures :confuse: Also, the tiny windy mountain roads on California's central coast (or, as another local, Bob Seager would say, miles and miles of those twisty turny roads)where I would "exercise" sporting vehicles in my youth were far from smooth and flat.
    Some weblogue of the roads of my youth
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Actually, the Classic Malibu, you know the rental fleet one, looks similar to the New Malibu. Both look OK. It was the steering, handling and drive-train which needed improvement. Did not expect any really hot styling to be done, and they didn't. Just a pleasing looking car. If it is more than that, I guess one has to see it in the metal, and not just in photo. The Sonata is pretty nice looks wise, and almost performs as well as the best of the best. For its price, and when kept to retirement, it seems like a value leader. Depends how picky one is about things.
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Guess my center rear view mirror is wider. Never seen such a narrow rear view with the center mirror. I have watched for a car coming in the rear view as visible, then when it was close to disappearing, looked to the side mirror and it appears with the new method of mirror placement. Could be the wider view inside, or perhaps I am not as radical in the new view placement of the mirror, as in not moving it too far outwards. Oh well, something else for people to debate.
    Loren
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Great! That means in over 30 years of car ownership, I've owned only one car that required repairs, "virtually." It was a Honda. All the other cars I've owned--Toyotas, Mazdas, Hyundais, Nissans, Dodges, Mitsubishi, Mercury, even a Chevy Vega--required virtually no repairs.

    Looks like Honda is the most unreliable car on the planet, based on my long-term experience.

    Now perhaps we could dispense with this stuff on "virtual" repairs and talk more about "concrete" things, like the cars?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    This could be the new Mitsu Galant, what do you guys think?

    image
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    hmmmm.... seems to look like every other car these days.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Very 1980's Japanese executive car ugly.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    Thats the nice thing with nissan, no belts in any of their vehicles. One less thing to worry about, and pay to replace.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I have my doubts about Mitsubishi being around the USA much longer. I live on the Central Coast of California, a virtual import car zone, and there is not a dealership within a 135 miles of where I live. This is wrong. The dealerships can not make a go of it here, I would say elsewhere USA is doomed.

    They have made some interesting looking cars over the past decades, but it may soon be over. I owned a Dodge Stealth, alias Mitsubishi 3000. Seemed to me that part prices were pretty high, but perhaps it was just that new model. The car was not the same reliability as other Japan makes, at least in my case. Yes, a small sample of one. Now the car was not too expensive, really cool looking and got the most positive comments and looks from people of any car I have ever owned. It seemed pretty sturdy over all, but just short of trouble free in its life with me. A Galant, IMHO, is an interesting looking car, as it has some extra style to it. But if sales are lacking, I fear for the dealerships in America, and thus I am out where it comes to any consideration of the products.

    They have brought some interesting products to America over the years -- hope they can survive as a provider of cars to North American Sales.
    L
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