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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Well, is he going to try all the others, like the Corvette, BMW Z3, S2000 Honda, and such? Looking for new cars? Ya know, if my butt was more narrow so I fit in the MX-5, I would consider one. I personally only fit in the last generations of Miatas. For fun, as in playing in the country, there is nothing better. Now for comfort, I do fit in the RX-8 better. They burn oil as they run, and use a tad more gas, but handle like on rails, for what I have heard. Not sure how many mechanics are trained to fix those engines, but then again, low fail rate, I would think. That Porsche Boxster has to be one of the more expensive cars for an oil change, though I am sure others can even top it. I sure like the looks of the Porsche. And love the looks of the Cayman. That said, the old BMW Z3 was one sexy looking car, and had some great inline six engines in it. Of course on the track, people still favor the Miata, or those S2000 Hondas. Let us know what he decides on. L
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    A Corvette is next on the list and that ought to be a blast too. We talked about the S2000, but for whatever reason, he's not too enamored by it. I get the feeling he doesn't really like cars that require high revving to get something out of it. Too bad, cuz that drops the lotus off the list :cry: Really, I was very surprised that he wanted to try the rx-8, but car and driver had a really good write up about it recently so we gave it a shot. Although he liked the great handling and of course the value of it (some new ones can be had for around 22k), it felt a little too tight inside and low end torque was non existant. He is considering a 330, but given it's weight is a bit higher up, it's not too likely. The g37 got dropped because he thinks the suspension isn't quite as well sorted as the others mentioned, but he loves the drivetrain. The hardtop mx5 would be nice but they are selling very well and are a bit hard to find unless he gets an 08 which would be available in around a month. But more than likely, he'll get a two year old model f/ an auction and go from there. Regardless, some very fun choices available...
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    You are right the Azera is classy, but the expression beauty is only skin deep comes to mind with the Azera. The Accord, IMO, can be said beautiful inside, beautiful outside. In pecking order of purchase. Avalon, Lucerne, Azera. Actually I would go for the Avalon and not even look at the other two.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    I doubt that seriously, Honda is making big time profit on the V6. I cant believe they are charging such a premium- especially when most Accord buyers pass on the V6 anyway.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    When it comes to time to replace the tires, I may opt for less mileage and more grip, say something like a Yokohama or Kumho tire. Seems to me they are really favorably rated at the TireRack, yet low priced.

    Tires are the single biggest component on the vehicle that affects handling. Replacing bread-and-butter highway tires with a performance tire (something those of us with 4-cyl Accords can't do) will yield substancial increase in handling performance. Also, for your central coast climate, there is no earthly reason you need all season tires. A good summer tire is designed to handle wet and dry roads, and handle the down-poors the rest of the country sees in summer.
    You might look at the BFG Comp T/A KDW. Those were pretty phenomenal on the Contour, second to the Comp T/A R1s, which were soft compound dedicated racing tires with a treadwear rating of zero. I have also had good luck with the Kumho Ecsta ASX (their psuedo-all season) but would probably recommend one of their "summer" oriented tires for your needs.
    There is a whole Accord Tires/Wheels form discussion that might also be of interest to you.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    accord will be on 10Best no matter what. even though C&d wasnt too thrilled with the weight gain and size increase I am willing to bet it will be firmly planted on 10Best in January. The Accord and 3 series are guaranteed spots on that list.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    In size, price, performance and power the AZera does stack up well against the Accord. It has everything the accord has except nav/bluetooth and a few features the Accord lacks. Now the Accord can also be seen as competition for the Avalon and Taurus/Sable.

    The Accord isnt cheap but its still cheaper than its main rivals. Its obvious that Toyota priced the camry so it could be heavily discounted because the MSRPs on them are ridiculous.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    I see that Honda is supposed to be coming out with an Accord Tourer... hmmmm, could this be the TSX replacement

    The Accord Tourer is a Euro only version. It's the Euro Accord with a wagon body. You won't see it here.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Actually the CTS' MSRP starts under $33k with destination. Since some people apparently have no trouble paying a few thousand more for an Accord than, say, a Sonata, then there should be no problem with paying a few thousand more for a car like the CTS compared to the Accord. And I'm sure there will be some wiggle room on the CTS. Maybe on the new Accord too, especially the V6, after the initial hoopla has died down, since it is very pricey for this class.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    since it is very pricey for this class

    The Accord is pricey compared to the Hyundai but not the Camry. Hyundai does not define this class.
    With Honda and Toyota being far and away the highest volume movers, it makes more sense to price compare the Accord and the Camry. Accord is not trying to be the best price in class, just the best value (features + performance + resale + reliability + reputation - initial cost).
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    I looked at the CTS's starting price too, online the other day. Since it can be optioned up into the mid $40k range, I'll be curious as to what the dealers will be ordering. Since the DI 3.6 model starts around $35K, I doubt you'll be seeing many CTS's in the low 30s. I'd bet most will be pushing $40k. Great looking car though. If I was in the market for a sedan it would be the first car I'd test drive. Looks impressive.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It's not like this $2,000 premium for the V6 is a new thing. The current premium is well over $2,000 for a V6 vs. a 4-cyl model on the 2007 models. Why is this so unbelievable on the 2008?? :confuse:

    For example, with 07 models:

    EX-L 4-cyl 5MT - $24,250
    EX-L 4-cyl 5AT - $25,050
    EX-" V6 5AT/6MT - $27,400

    A minimum difference of $2,350 - over $3k if you want a manual.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You're right. Both the Accord and Camry are very pricey for this class, compared to several competitors such as Aura, Fusion, LaCrosse, Milan, Optima, and Sonata that are available for thousands less.

    The question for each buyer is, are the features/performance/resale/reliability/reputation differences in the Accord and Camry worth the price premium? Given the huge discounts available on the 2007 Accord and the Camry, it appears the general answer is "no". Honda and Toyota have been forced to put large incentives on their mid-sizers and dealers have had to discount them in order to compete with the lower-priced alternatives. (If Accord and Camry were worth their price premium, there would be no need for discounting, right?) I expect to see big discounts on the 2008 Accord too once the usual "new model" fascination fades.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The question for each buyer is, are the features/performance/resale/reliability/reputation differences in the Accord and Camry worth the price premium? Given the huge discounts available on the 2007 Accord and the Camry, it appears the general answer is "no".

    Eh, to be fair, the Accord was at the very end of a 5 year run and lacks some of the options and features available on other, more contemporary models.

    I expect to see big discounts on the 2008 Accord too once the usual "new model" fascination fades.

    There is getting to be less and less to differentiate the field of competitors. Mid-size sedans are starting to become a commodity market and unless you stand out, no one gets a premium.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Go rent an Accord for a week. Record your mileage under your actual driving conditions. Then see you will have a basis for comparison.

    That would be a fairly expensive proposition and I'm not so sure what it would prove. If the Accord got the same mileage, 14.8, I guess I would feel better. But if it got say 17-20 mpg in city driving I would be depressed. Besides, Accords are not available with AWD, not even the 2008s. In order to do a fair comparison the cars would need to have very similar drive trains.

    Also, while the fuel economy is poor, given the number of miles traveled, it sounds like the financial impact is negligible.

    Yup, we put very few miles on the car, 4,600 in nine months, so the pain is somewhat subdued, thankfully. To be honest I thought the car would deliver its EPA estimate. The original one was 19 mpg city/26 highway. The revised one is 17 mpg city/24 highway.

    On the only trip we have taken with it, a 360-mile jaunt, the Fusion did deliver 26 mpg going and 24 mpg returning with speeds of 60-70 mph.

    People on the four forums I visit report generally good mileage for the 3.0-liter V6 but very few report good mileage with the AWD option.

    As I've said repeatedly, our Fusion is a really nice car except for the gasoline mileage dealio. I would recommend one, without the AWD, to anyone and everyone.

    It's a personal preference thing, but I think the Fusion is the hands-down style winner in the mid-size segment but not everyone agrees, of course.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    So looks like the Euro 6 will be getting a larger 4 cylinder that is a 2.5 liter rated at 170HP. The car is supposed to be 40kg lighter and braking supposedly has been improved from it's current impressive (for this segment) level. Mazda is also claiming the car will be quieter than the current model, though the sound from the engine is supposed to be tuned have an aggressive sound. Looks like bluetooth, adaptive cruise control and a push button start will be available. But the bad news... a mazda rep said that the wagon and hatchback may not make it to the states the first year!!! What a bunch of hooie! These different body styles were a main reason I bought the 6, and I know many others with this car who feel the same. Also, the rumor persists that the sheetmetal on this euro 6 will be different f/ the US 6... another thing that I'm not too happy about as I think the 6 they previewed looks distinctive, aggressive, and classy (though not as streamlined like the current 6...). Well at least there is some new news about the 6...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If you got 25 or so MPG on your trip then it seems obvious to me that there is nothing wrong with your Fusion. It's strictly the route, because you got the stated EPA claims on the highway (the easiest, most error-free way to test - too much varies in what is considered normal "CITY" driving). Steady highway is steady highway though.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    found this f/ autoweb:
    North America
    There will be a dedicated new Mazda6 for the North American market, designed and engineered specifically for North America. More information will be provided during Summer 2008, closer to the launch of the North American model.

    booooooo!!!! :mad: :mad:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Aww, sorry guys!!! I know yall were really excited about the 6 you saw! :cry:
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    "There will be a dedicated new Mazda6 for the North American market, designed and engineered specifically for North America. More information will be provided during Summer 2008, closer to the launch of the North American model."

    Let me guess... dollars to doughnuts...

    Larger, heavier, and slightly softer than the current model...
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    You are s***ting me!! :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:

    Okay, let's calm down. I am pretty sure the exterior will remain pretty much align with the Euro Mazda6 since the Euro model looks pretty much like all those spy shots we saw earlier. Since there are no new Mazda6 spy shots I am willing to bet that what we saw in Frankfurt is pretty much what we are getting here. It probably will come with a different headlight, grille and backlight, that's about it.

    Engine is what worries me. I hope we will be getting the same 3.8L V6 like the Euro 6 does instead of the Ford DT 3.5. I wouldn't be surprised to see that the US spec Mazda6 will receive a different 4-banger as well.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    "Tires are the single biggest component on the vehicle that affects handling. Replacing bread-and-butter highway tires with a performance tire (something those of us with 4-cyl Accords can't do) will yield substancial increase in handling performance. "

    Why won't I be able to put better handling tires on my 2007 Accord when the Turanzas wear out?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    I hope we will be getting the same 3.8L V6 like the Euro 6 does instead of the Ford DT 3.5.

    Huh? There is no V6 for the European Mazda6. What are you talking about? Maybe a Buick.... :P
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Huh? There is no V6 for the European Mazda6.

    Yes you are right. I meant the 3.8L V6 as in rumor.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It's getting a 3.7L version of the current 3.5L which will put out around 275-280 hp. It will be built in Japan.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Accord's pricing is clearly based on the fact that they dont plan for buyers to cross shop anything but Camry. I'm sure that philosophy is correct since most Accord buyers probably dont look farther than Camry or Altima. COmpared to those two the accord looks good, but not compared to the rest of the field.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    I agree with you, Camry and Altima would be their pricing benchmarks.

    But it wouldn't make any sense for the second best selling sedan to benchmark the prices of the 4th, 5th and 6th best sellers.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "Given the huge discounts available on the 2007 Accord and the Camry, it appears the general answer is "no". Honda and Toyota have been forced to put large incentives on their mid-sizers and dealers have had to discount them in order to compete with the lower-priced alternatives. (If Accord and Camry were worth their price premium, there would be no need for discounting, right?) I expect to see big discounts on the 2008 Accord too once the usual "new model" fascination fades. "

    I agree 100%. The difference between Camry MSRP and TMV is pretty substantial which means Toyota has to grantnice discounts to keep volume up. Its funny because people will say "the impala is largely successful because of fleet sales" but to me thats no different from Toyota selling Camrys for $4k under sticker to keep volume up. Accord sales were way up last month due to discounting on the 2007 model to clear it out. The bottom line is Toyota (moreso than Honda) is bringing the transaction price of the camry down closer to the "inferior" competition to keep sales high. This is one reason why the Camry will remain the #1 car in American indefinitely.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    It's getting a 3.7L version of the current 3.5L which will put out around 275-280 hp. It will be built in Japan.

    The Zoom-Zoom factor is likely to be enhanced even further.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "But it wouldn't make any sense for the second best selling sedan to benchmark the prices of the 4th, 5th and 6th best sellers. "

    It would if you are trying to gain share as opposed to just tread water. Remember, total sales of one brand is one thing, but overall segment sales are another. Chevy sells more midsize cars than Honda (if we count impala) and GM sells more midsize cars than Toyota (including all brands for both). If Gm consolidated all its brands and named all midsize non luxury sedans "malibu" it would outsell camry. The sales race for a particular brand is really about bragging rights and little else. F150 is best selling pickup and I'm not sure what that proves other than Ford has huge capacity to build them and they are willing to offer huge rebates to move them.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Camry has a "2007 clearance sale" going on right now thus the close to $4K discount. Use the Edmunds' TMV to configure both a '07 and '08 Camry then you'll see a difference in pricing.

    It's not just Toyota, every manufacture offers substantial discounts to the end of the year models in order to clear the lot for the new year models.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Camry has a "2007 clearance sale" going on right now thus the close to $4K discount. Use the Edmunds' TMV to configure both a '07 and '08 Camry then you'll see a difference in pricing.

    It's not just Toyota, every manufacture offers substantial discounts to the end of the year models in order to clear the lot for the new year models.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Accord right now has a strong reputation going for it so Honda doesn't need to lower price in order to gain share. What they are doing is building a class benchmark with competitive pricing among the leaders (Altima and Camry) to win over potential buyers.

    Undercut in price what a new comer will do in order to gain share in a quick way. The best examples are Sonata and Fusion. Toyota is also doing the same thing for its new Tundra.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    The bottom line is Toyota (moreso than Honda) is bringing the transaction price of the camry down closer to the "inferior" competition to keep sales high.

    I hope the quote marks around "inferior" was meant as sarcasm because I don't consider the other mid-sizers to be inferior to a Camry.

    This is one reason why the Camry will remain the #1 car in American indefinitely.

    Unless there is another engine sludge episode. :)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    You're assuming that other "lesser/inferior" lower priced cars competing with the Camry aren't also selling for $4K under sticker. An unlikely assumption at this time of the year (closeout).
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Fleet sales. You can give away any product in the World, and end up with great numbers for volume. The bottom line is profit. And to the customer resale value. L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    All manufactures charge more for a V6. And this has been since the start of time; well automotive sales time that is. Hell, doesn't GM charge if you want real tires on your car? You can end up with Hankook or some other cheapo's on there. OK, maybe Hankook is a good tire - don't know, but it is a Korean tire. I thought GM was the all American brand? Looks to me like a 3.6V6 in the Aura XR has a premium price placed on it. No - Honda charging for a V6 is not out of the ordinary. Just get the SE to get the reasonable package associated with the V6 buy. Or pay more get all the other stuff, many seem to enjoy. Life has options. L
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Prices are relatively unchanged!

    Not according to this:
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=122554

    Honda said on Monday that its 2008 Accord sedan will carry a starting price of $20,995, including a $635 destination charge. That reflects a $1,775 increase over the outgoing 2007 model.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    when a loaded Camry is $35k I dont think the discounting is solely due to clearance sales. Besides the discounts offered by dealers are usually equal to or greater than the factory rebates.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    "But it wouldn't make any sense for the second best selling sedan to benchmark the prices of the 4th, 5th and 6th best sellers. "

    actually Tundra is more expensive than most competitors.

    I dont know that we can call the Accord a benchmark when it really isnt offering anything not offered on the competition and is not offering quite a few things offered on the competition. What we can say is that the 2008 model is adding a lot of features it should've had a while ago and has essentially caught up to the competition.

    Accord's sales have dropped for the lastr 3 years or so, I'm not sure why you are saying they dont need to increase share. The sales gap between accord and camry has only gotten larger in recent years.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    Point is the fact that the camry needs $4k in discounts to sell ANY time is a testament to the fact that the car is priced too high. Its amazing how everyone is forgetting that Toyota (unlike its american counterparts) is supposed to be a master of supply and demand and not need to rely on sales to move products. Am I the only one who remembers this? We all know Sonotas have big rebates as do some other models, but the camry is one of the newest midsize cars on the market and has a far better reputation than Sonata, Malibu, mazda6, etc.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    "Tires are the single biggest component on the vehicle that affects handling. Replacing bread-and-butter highway tires with a performance tire (something those of us with 4-cyl Accords can't do) will yield substancial increase in handling performance. "

    Why won't I be able to put better handling tires on my 2007 Accord when the Turanzas wear out?

    Oh, you will, as long as you don't mind replacing your wheels with 17" ones or having the speedometer be off the whole time. There are no performance tires in a 205/60/16, in fact, I can't think of another car that uses that size.

    What they should've done is used 205/55R16s like everyone else on the face of the earth where a plethora of tires in all categories are available in all price ranges. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

    I remember when Honda used to make a sports sedan :cry:

    Oh well, it will be worth something in 3 years and if I drive nicely, it might not need tires and I will be able to get something more performance oriented.
  • 14871487 Member Posts: 2,407
    You are missing my point here, Honda is charging $2200 for the engine ONLY. Compare XR and XE and you will see they are separeted by more than a motor. You didnt mention that 6 speed auto, 18" wheels, stability, auto climate control, 8 way seat, 6 CD changer, premium sound system and auto dimming mirror are included in the $3500 premium you pay for the XR. Not quite the same as what Honda is doing with the Accord. On the Fusion I think a V6 is worth about $1000-$1500 at the most.

    Most base models in the midsize segment come with "cheap" tires, Aura is no exception. Just because they are Hankook doesnt mean they are any cheaper than lower end continentals or goodyears.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    I think you can safely call the 2nd best selling family car in the country a 'benchmark'. The 2003-2006 model was a benchmark for the category. It would be surprising if the 2008 model is not also.

    That the 2008 has added features that it 'should've had a while ago' seems like an odd statement. They added features because it is a new model. They did not add them a 'while ago' because they haven't brought out an all-new Accord since 2003.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    That article is a little misleading. Remember, Honda has now dropped the DX/VP trim levels, making the LX the entry level sedan for 2008. The quote should be that a base model 2008 Accord (an LX) will cost $1,775 more than the outgoing 2007 base model (a VP). It should also mention that compared to a 2007 VP, the 2008 LX has much more standard features. IMO it is well worth the $1,775.

    MSRP for my '07 LX manual was over $20k, so the difference between the '07 LX and the '08 is not so much. The LX and EX were by far the volume sellers anyway, it is very rare to see a DX or VP.

    The only way that dropping the DX/VP may hurt Honda is in "bait and switch" style comparisons, where a competitor is able to advertise a midsize sedan for much less than $20k. Of course, their ad car would be stripped out, and to compare it to a base Accord wouldn't be apples-to-apples, but that is wait the bait and switch is all about, right?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    There are no performance tires in a 205/60/16, in fact, I can't think of another car that uses that size.

    That's funny - tirerack.com shows 14 high performance or ultra high performance all season tires in that size including Yokohama, Pirelli, Bridgestone, Dunlop, Firestone and Goodyear.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I dont know that we can call the Accord a benchmark

    You need to drive the Accord and [almost] every other midsizer in this segment before making that statement.

    I can only tell from my personal experience. My family owns an Accord, a Camry and I drove the Mazda6, Fusion, Altima and Impala before. Without reading all the car mags I concluded myself that Accord has the best combination of comfort and performance.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    There are no performance tires in a 205/60/16, in fact, I can't think of another car that uses that size.

    That's funny - tirerack.com shows 14 high performance or ultra high performance all season tires in that size including Yokohama, Pirelli, Bridgestone, Dunlop, Firestone and Goodyear.


    Actually, it shows 8, the RE92 (which dates back to the 80s and not exactly the pinnacle of high performance then either) and the Yokahama AVID(which is a speed rated touring tire on other websites), the Firestone Firerock, and Pirelli are each listed twice at H-speed rating and V.
    Of those 8, only the Summitomo is listed as an "ultra" anything, and it gets raped in the reviews.

    In comparison, the Mazda6 actually lists Ultra-high-performance and high-performance summer tires like the Pirelli P-zero, BFGoodrich g-Force T/A KDW,Kumho Ecsta SPT, Michelin Pilot, which are unavailable for the Honda, as well as all season tires like the Dunlop SP Sport 5000 Symmetrical (a personal favorite of mine, great tires on the Contour in Michigan), Kumho Ecsta ASX (another favorite and an incredible bargain to boot), etc.

    I guess I bought an old people's car. :mad: :cry:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Then you should have said they didn't offer any performance tires that you like.

    Just get the 225/55R16 instead of the 205/60R16. The difference in sidewall height is less than 1mm (123.0 vs. 123.75) and should work just fine. The Kumho Ecsta SPT is only $82 in that size.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Or within $400 of the price of a New Malibu. Sooooo, what ya think of that $19,999 price for a New Malibu. Want to bet on that one sticking?
    Loren
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