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Comments
And, as far as I am concerned, Dodge in no way equates Hyundai in the rest of the car either.
A Dodge and a Hyundai have the same engine?
As for "why is the rear window going all the way down so important...?", I never said it was...I think I said it was a minor point, but that I prefer them to go down. I had just assumed that the days of windows going down 1/2 or 2/3 were over, hearing that they are not in the case of the Fusion was a surprise. The Accord's sound like they are about like the Mazda6's.
There are a lot of other small preferences that I have, some I got in the 6, some I did not. These are not, by themselves, likely to cause me to choose one vehicle over another. Some of these preferences that come to mind are: steering wheel audio controls, "manual" mode in an automatic, extender on sun visor, doors that open without having to unlock first, automatic door locks, the "old" mazda6 type vents, minimal chrome, no wood or fake wood,...
I highly doubt the power numbers will be that high. Mazda has announced they made the 2.3L into a 2.5L and it will produce 170hp. That is for Europe. I cannot believe that the U.S. application will be any different. I do not see anything higher then 180, and 180 might be doubtful.
As I already explained the Fusion windows go all the way down at the rear of the window and only stick up about 2" at the front tapering down to flush about halfway. They're barely noticeable and you can still put your arm out on the rear half of the window if necessary. That's about as good as you can get with most designs today.
Why Hyundai? Well, as I said my daughter has one (2003 Elantra)with about 36K miles and no problems, our son has the 2000 Elantra I bought him in Dec. 2003. It had about 63K miles then and has 166K miles now (he adds 100 miles per day in his commute). I know every penny that was spent on this car since we bought it and the list of replacement parts/repairs is as follows:
1. new alternator @ 154,XXX miles.
2. the original battery ruined by the failure of the alternator..same mileage
3. 2 sets of tires over 103K miles.
4. several sets of Hyundai brand rotors that for some reason developed "chatter" upon braking. These were replaced under warranty but I finally bought Bendix rotors that have been fine since. An anomaly?
5. 1 set plugs and wiring.
6. new timing belt @ ~ 80K miles and a new water pump at the same time because it is prudent to do that.
7. in Feb of this year a "flex pipe" was needed in the exhaust system. It connected the down pipe (at the exhaust manifold) to the rest of the exhaust.
Further I personally have owned two Santa Fe SUV's. One a 2002 the other a 2003. Before anyone tries to make something of the early trade for the 2003 there were certain features introduced in '03 I "had to have". And before someone tries to make something about trading a Hyundai for a Honda (in the fall of 2005) the simple explanation is gas went over $3.00 per gallon for the first time ever and fuel economy while reasonable for an SUV wasn't that great in light of the price. So, the uncertainty of future prices was the reason for that trade. It wasn't that I disliked my Hyundai or that it was troublesome, on the contrary, it like all the others in our family was extremely troubleFREE. I originally wanted a Sonata but chose maximum economy and bought the Civic. Why not a 2006 Elantra? Well, that design was getting a bit "old" at 5 model years and I knew a redesign was in the works but didn't want to wait more than a year for that either. In light of the disappointment with the Civic I wish I had gone with the Sonata. I like Hyundai, I tried to like Honda but too many small things turned me off. To be clear it never left us sit, never had major component trouble but I lost track of Honda service bulletins that were issued to correct original flaws. That plus several recalls (three that I know of) were also issued. The latest is: #07V40200 a brake light switch problem...oh, that isn't the latest there also is #07V399000 which is a rear wheel bearing/speed sensor issue that may allow the rear wheel (s) to fall off.
In summary there is no major foul-up for Hyundai ever.. nothing like the Toyota engine sludge issue or Honda transmission problems. Never say never but not to date. You are correct go with the good experience and that was/is Hyundai not Honda..sorry boys. So yeah, Hyundai for me.
Direcet injection will easily raise it to 200. I was wrong about the numbers I read though. The Ford employee who graced us with the prelim numbers for the 2008 Mazda6 stated 190-200 HP for the 2.5L I4 and, after checking the post again, it is a DI engine. Remember, these are prelim numbers, but from a reliable source IMO.
Eh, a rose by another name...
Sorry, I must have misread something...I thought that comment was about the Accord. I guess we did not get a detailed rear window report from any Accord owners . The Sonata was reported to have windows that go all the way down.
Urnews had said fusion left 4 inches of rear window :confuse: . What you say about the Fusion sounds exactly like the Mazda6, which makes more sense.
I was mistaken, relied on memory. What Allen Kirby described is accurate. By actual measurement, 1.5 inches of the glass is above the sill at the most forward point. It tapers downward and disappears about midway of the sill. I apologize for the faulty information.
It still bugs me that it doesn't disappear completely. Not a biggie, to be sure, just a minor annoyance. It looks like a mistake even if it's not.
Further there are several variants of this including a 1.8 liter a 2.0 liter a 2.4 liter (which has more hp than the Sonata @ 173) and both a 2.4 liter turbo (which has far more @ 300) and a 2.0 liter diesel. I would say that even the basic block as designed by Hyundai has been modified enough by both Chrysler and Mitsu. that it is not the same engine as used in the Sonata. The displacement is the same, true, but the engine has enough differences that..nope..it isn't a "Hyundai engine" any more than it is a "Mitsubishi engine" or a "Chrysler engine" it is a GEMA engine which is a separate company...co-developed for sure. If you want further differences I guess I can research more and come up with some. Further research shows no Hyundai applications for this series of engines.
In summary there is no major foul-up for Hyundai ever.. nothing like the Toyota engine sludge issue or Honda transmission problems. Never say never but not to date. You are correct go with the good experience and that was/is Hyundai not Honda..sorry boys. So yeah, Hyundai for me.
The thing that bothers me so much about the Toyota sludge problem is how the company stonewalled for so long. It took a class-action lawsuit to get the company to do the right thing. Many many thousands of owners were affected.
One of the nice things about our 3.0-liter V6 Ford engine in our 2007 Fusion is the fact that it is not known to have any inherent problems at this stage of the game. It is dependable and reliable even though it might not be as sophisticated as some other engines in the marketplace.
From all that I've read, the Sonata is a fine mid-size car. We went with the Fusion because of good past experiences with Ford products and the fact that the dealer, Sherwood of Salisbury, Md., is top notch in our book.
I am a Mazda employee, and have heard no such numbers yet. I will be more then happy to eat my words if the North American 2009 Mazda6 I4 gets more then 170hp! :shades:
I have 2008 Mazda6's in my inventory, the new Mazda6 will be a 2009, not 2008.
Seems to be running just fine. Toyota should offer an extra $2,000 off the purchase of any Toyota car in the future to those caught up in this poor engineering fiasco. Overall, the car is not interior or exterior as trouble free as was his '91 Camry, which was a zero defect car. He just did the oil changes, air filter, tires, and spark plugs in nine years time. It was never back to the dealership once. I think the early 90's to perhaps the mid-90's was the last of best of the Camrys. I had a Corolla '98 and it was pretty much trouble free, sort of like the earlier Camry cars were. Dad's 2000 is OK, and the only major concern is the oil changes all the time and resale value taking a couple or thousand hit due to oil sludge problems. Still has more resale value than does most any domestic car I can think of. Can't think of any Toyota, at this time, which lights my fancy at all. Now, if they made a RWD Celica again, then..... The New Camry interior is not too hot, and exterior is sort of odd in some areas, so before any other considerations, it was off my list, when I was mid-size car hunting.
L
Hyundai Sonata is a good enough car, but those high fleet sales are not helping the resale values. It is really one company to watch, as they grow and grow. Wonder if the Elantra gets a new more powerful engine soon. Is it not approaching the mid-size class, as per interior room? L
Hyundai has reduced fleet sales on the Sonata, has bumped up prices, and has cut back some on incentives over the past year. Yet they are still near capacity in Alabama when adding the Sonata and Santa Fe production. So they are not doing too bad IMO.
The Elantra has been in the mid-sized class by interior volume since the 2001 MY, but is even bigger inside for 2007-8. It is definitely an alternative for me. Power-wise, it's at 138, which is low for the class but since it's smaller/lighter than others in the class, it's plenty peppy for me. To me the Elantra is an interesting, lower-cost alternative for a car with mid-sized interior and trunk room but compact size, and a good complement of features including standard ESC on the SE trim.
A little more work on the steering and suspensions of the Sonata to tune for handling, and I would say it has arrived. As for looks, I think it is just fine when compared to some now trying far too hard for a change for the sake of change, and just doing strange things with headlamps and such. The Sonata look is clean right now. If they hold to long term durability high scores, things will continue upwards. The first half of this year, they were at around a 27% fleet sales, while it is not huge, perhaps they could half next year??? What are the numbers on Sonata? I thought they are selling under last year figures, but I could be very much wrong on that one. Loren
Would you say it is the transmissions which are the most concern in those used cars, and could it be some of the older models, with a stick or an automatic which is an older type, could be less costly and thus take some of the risk out of the equation? Or is it something one will do buy once in life, like buying a boat.
Loren
Thanks for correcting that. The U.S. version hasn't even been unveiled yet!
am a Mazda employee, and have heard no such numbers yet.
You work at a Mazda dealer IIRC, right? The Ford employee I speak of works at an assembly plant if I'm not mistaken. Big difference.
Employees of Mazda dealers aren't Mazda employees either I always thought. Are they? I'm not trying to flame. Just curious.
Wow, minimal chrome...does somebody still do that?
I vividly remember riding in a ~'79 Camaro about 10 years later, and it had the most ghastly multi-toned aluminum type dash. Granted, the chrome/brushed aluminum is done with more taste now, but I still wonder how it's going to age, and whether we'll look back 10 years from now and wonder how the designers went so overboard for that fad.
And that's just the sedans. The over-the-top use of chrome on the dinosaur SUVs these days (think Escalade and Navigator) is enough to make any self-respecting pimp blush. Oh well, I guess they're devoid of any real improvement ideas, and they have to go somewhere to stay semi-relevant.
As for those GOOD things we now have on a modern car, the extending sun visor ranks amongst the best of ideas. The telescoping steering column is a great idea, though I wish they would pull towards the driver yet another inch or two, as I have short arms, I guess. What I do not like at all are those foot emergency brakes. The worst I have seen, IMHO, is the New Altima which has the foot brake position more where I would expect the clutch to be. Now it does rise upward of course when not engaged, but it is still in what looks to me in harms way if the legs swing up, such as in a wreck, or when I am twisting around getting in or out. Wait a minute, it is in the down position when moving in and out, which is even worse. I really do not like this. On the Aura it is not a good thing, but at least it is far to the left side. I want my hand brake. Loren
But, T & T is not something new.
I agree with you in the "emergency"/parking brake location. In fact, my '71 Volvo had the brake lever between the driver seat and door. It did not impede entry or exit and did not get in the way of the shifter or console.
Those swing-a-way steering columns were pretty strange. Guess it was a good thing. Your basic tilt is a good thing to have. A few cars did not have it. The older Miatas did not, though I am lucky as the wheel is in the right position for me. I owned a first gen. of a Miata some years ago. May get another one. L
My grandfather's 1999 Nissan Frontier doesn't have tilt either. It's an XE Reg Cab model though, so it has crank windows, manual locks, a 5-sp man & 4-cyl combo, and doesn't offer intermittent wipers (I don't mean variable intermittent, I mean it has low-speed and hi-speed and that's IT).
It's a hoot to drive though - the only manual transmission in my immediate family.
That was one helluva car until I had to replace it 13 years later (family and eventual maintenance cost). It was so far ahead of its time but is now so primative compared to today's cars. It would cruise comfortably at 80 and give 31 mpg. Take it up to 90 mph and the mpg would drop to 26 or 27. LOL. (And that's based on a full tank of gas, no trip computer-- miles driven /gallons used. Those were the days, 90 mph on a 2 lane road in rural Florida on rte 29 or 27.
Wonder how Volvo is doing these days. The new c-30 has arrived, at least for taking orders. Nothing too exciting otherwise??? Loren
The Accord is not too big for a car, but perhaps too big now to be an Accord. Guess we now have the Accord Stretched Sedan. Oh doh, that is as bad as Toyota Racing Development! I won't go there....
Loren
I love to downshift and upshift, and find the right gears to get the most out of the next turn. We have lots of curves and back roads around California. Shifting is all about the straight line performance, I take it elsewhere on the flat and straight roads of America.
I am driving a car with a 5 sp automatic, which is really excellent at getting the job done for a sedan. It won't be long though before the kid in me simply must row the gears once again. I hear the calling of a sports car! Now the money is the only hard part. Taking all donations for save the sports car addict fund.
Interesting how people drive all sticks, for the most part in Europe, even in the most crowded of cities. The automatics are sooooooo very much better than the days of old, and still improving. That said, is even a paddle shifter the same fun? And that 5 sp. automatic I have is going to cost something like $5K or more to replace if it ever blows.
Oh well, its all good. Perhaps that is the way to go, with an automatic for sedan and leave the stick to the sports car, or at least the paddle shift. - L
Kinda- but after driving a stick for a looong time, I gave it up. It ceased to be fun in the stop and go traffic of the commute.
Yes...
Even running up and down 85 in the bay area, I never found myself wanting anything but a manual. The old Accord was a stick, as is the new one. I honestly can't picture that thing being any fun at all with an auto. The Subie is a stick to, and while it feels great with a stick, it would be a bit pokey with an auto.
Same here, but no stop and go traffic, it was more that it just ceased to be worth the trouble. I had manuals mostly because I got more gears, better mileage, and adequate power from a 4 cylinder engine...those advantages are now pretty much gone. Maybe if we got the engine choices that Europeans do, I might have continued...maybe I'd be driving a manual trans mazda6 with a 1.8L or 2.0L engine.
Stepping on a clutch pedal and moving a shift lever is not something that I find particularly exciting the vast mjority of the time, it was just a simple task that needed to be done.
If we all band together, maybe write our Congresspeople, we can stamp out this scourge of plood once and for all!
(Just kidding.)
Yeah, thats a lifestyle choice I would avoid, personally.
The 2007 (2008?) Ford Fusion is/was available without plood. Our SEL AWD has piano black (shiny black plastic) trim. It's a dust magnet but much more pleasing than plood. I really do dislike plastic wood, on any car.
Real wood (but with matte finish) is an accessory on the Accord now, including covering the silver trim on steering wheel as well.
I don't have faith in silver/aluminum look plastics. They don't age very well and are prone to scratch. And when they do get one, it really shows. Two out of last two Altima rentals had that issue. I would hate it in my car.
I also see Accord getting a bit of TL treatment with some black plastic (a bit matte finished). It looks good and high quality, but also shows nail marks easily although it can be buffed off so it will age well.
1. I was hoping it'll look more like TL/TSX interior than RL or 5-series type. I guess Honda designers have turned the new Accord into a poor man's 5-series inside and out. I don't dislike the idea but it just doesn't look Honda to me anymore.
2. That gear shifter looks CHEAP and like it's lifted out directly from Civic. A good looking gated shifter like the one in TL will make the cabin looks even more luxurious.
The beautiful thing for me is I don't care . Real or fake, the wood look is not something I find appealing in a car at all.