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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I'm glad to have company. Not everybody is as lucky as us though. :P

    That said, I would prefer plood over silvery/aluminumy plastic in *any* car. If I got an Accord with silver plastics (especially on the steering wheel), I will go for the wood trim as pictured earlier). In reality, give me either real aluminum or just nicely finished black plastic.

    Here is a close up of the audio controls in my 1998 Accord
    image

    The real beauty of it is not only that its layout is remarkably well thought out, but it has stood the test of time. The minor scratches are only visible under flash, but I can't imagine any kind of silver/aluminum-looking plastic look as good after years (and 181K miles) of abuse.

    And I'm glad my TL doesn't have it either (the shiny stuff is all real aluminum). Unfortunately, the new Accord does have some of the treatment that I detest (Climate control buttons in picture below, the rest appears to be similar to TL's), but still not as bad as a lot of cars out there, and it is gun metal finished (slightly less prone to showing scratches than bright silver finish).

    image
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Only the basic shape of the dash is similar to 5-series. The design is all Honda, with controls placed logically (it is lacking some symmetry that was seen in the past) and having dedicated functions to buttons improves usability (a Honda tradition). The downside to it is additional buttons. But I would take more buttons to a few as most would once they realize the strengths. Just see the proliferation of real keyboards on cell phones now, makes it much easier to text.

    BMW goes with the dreaded i-Drive function that virtually requires attention off the road. Honda's MMI interface (in Accord and RL) is similar but doesn't integrate everything into it, just the features you should be using when parked anyway).

    I also noticed (in one of the spy pictures) that Hyundai is going with iDrive-like control at the same location (in Genesis).

    One of interiors that virtually everybody raves about can be seen in Audis. I detest them from usability point of view, but can't recall anybody calling them cluttered or too small (they are located well below appropriate line of vision to boot).
    image
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    What I am going to say maybe shocking but...

    I don't like Audi interiors.

    I had an A4 for 2 weeks and it's nothing to phone home about. I also don't understand why virtually everybody raves about Audi interior. IMO Acura has the best interior design and is miles ahead of Audi.

    Back to Accord. I too don't mind buttons, I actually like dedicated function buttons because I value simplicity. I was dissapointed that Honda moved away from touch screen to the i-drive like joystick with the RL. Apparently this design is here to stay by looking at the Accord.

    Also, you are right, when I said the Accord interior looks like the 5-series I was talking about the general design shape, not the layout.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Back to Accord. I too don't mind buttons, I actually like dedicated function buttons because I value simplicity. I was dissapointed that Honda moved away from touch screen to the i-drive like joystick with the RL. Apparently this design is here to stay by looking at the Accord.

    That is a double edged trade off...a touch screen requires eyes off road time because you have to look at it to make your selections, but the joystick can be hard for some people to use and manipulate, especially if you push in to enter.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    But with the joystick one still has to look at the screen in order to see what he/she is doing right? The touch screen is like a one step process and joystick is two:

    Touchscreen: I simply touch the icon.
    Joystick: I move the cursor to the icon then press enter.

    Same reason why I like gated shifter over the column one.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I find touchscreen to be extremely handy in my TL. However, the features I use on it are largely navigation related, which drivers are advised to use when completely stopped.

    For the rest of it, voice commands come in handy (unless the moon roof or windows are open or have someone in the car talking).

    The MMI is a solution to taking out some buttons that aren't normally needed or will generally be combined into multi-purpose buttons anyway. For example, Bass/Treble or Balance/Fade control. Other than that I think the MMI will find its use mostly with NAV selection (again, I prefer to use voice commands when driving, and touch screen when stopped).
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    And I was recently offered $3.5K for it. But this car is a part time limo for my dog.

    I'll offer you 4K for it if you bring it to Southern CA for me right away!
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    How about return airfare? I'm not going to walk 1800 miles to home. :D
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    How about you rent a 2008 Accord 1-way to get a real nice test drive experience?
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Touch screens, joysticks???

    Don't know anything about either or what you do with them, but both sound overly complex. I prefer what I guess would be considered primitive simple controls.

    I think I'd run away screaming from this:

    image

    as well as this:

    image

    While this:

    image

    does not instantly appear frightening, it is also not anything I would want.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    I wholeheartedly agree. Honda is putting way too many buttons on the center stack and in odd positions IMO. Fortuntately most of the important ones are duplicated on the steering wheel which I find very convenient. I know the Honda stack sits in a high easy to read and easy to view position. But what's the point of that if all the buttons are too hard to find at first glance?

    Has Honda or Toyota put the climate controls on the steering wheel yet as Ford has?
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Putting climate control buttons on the steering wheel is a waste. I rarely adjust the climate control as I suspect *most* people rarely adjust them.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    There is an issue with the priority of controls. My '93 Accord had 3 buttons - hazzard, defrost, and fog across the top, then the radio, then the climate control. Cruise was on the wheel once activated by a button on the dash (I thought the "enable" button on the dash was silly, but okay).

    Now that the car audio system has more computing power than my old Mac Plus and electronic climate control - something that was supposed to be simpler - seems to have more buttons than a home stereo remote. We are at the low point of an evolution cycle right now. The system can be electronic, but knobs for climate control are still a better interface, IMHO.

    I think the great thing about the old Accord was the important things were BIG and at the TOP. In both the Legacy and the new Accord, I can't find the rear defrost without looking for it (and in both cars its at the bottom of the console). This is not user-centered design.

    Still not as bad as the '90s Sienna where the audio system was at the bottom of the console and you couldn't read the display from the driver's seat. Heck, if you were shorter than about 5'8" you couldn't even reach it from the driver's seat.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I'd rather have this:

    image

    rather than touch screens, joysticks, dozens of buttons, etc...
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The main VW complaint is who is the genius that made both the speedometer and the tachometer have the same scale? If they just made the tachometer x1000 instead of x100, I would be cool with it. And to make matters worse, the spacing is about the same between markings on the two dials.
    That particular VW looks like a base 2.5 Rabbit, I thought they had controls for at least the audio on the wheel.
    BTW - VW's sunroof dial is one of the greatest things since sliced bread. You just turn it to where you want it, and it opens that much and stops automatically.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Hey I found someone that agrees, and uses the same example:
    VW display
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    That photo is actually 2005 Jetta "value edition", which is what my wife drives. I'd assume base rabbit is the same, but they may have upgraded some things.

    I don't have that much problem with the numbers on tach and speedo being the same, though I'd rather have the tach be X1000, like most are. However, the speedometer is hard for me to read for some reason, my wife has no problem with it...so I guess if I drove it all the time it would be okay. (it also reads about 5 mph high)
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Nothing can beat this for simplicity and ergonomics. Still one of the best looking interiors I've ever seen.

    image
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    image

    I couldn't agree more. It holds up well too. This is my interior after 165k miles.

    Doesn't have the great lighting of your picture, but it still looks good to be 12 years old!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Nothing can beat this for simplicity and ergonomics. Still one of the best looking interiors I've ever seen.

    For the most part, I agree, however there are a few caveats.
    1. Why did they put the climate control above the radio. The radio has a display that you need to be able to read while you are driving. The closer it is to the FOV out the window, the better. Also, the climate control has fantastic big knobs that are easy to reach without looking, even more reason for them to be lower.

    2. Why do you need to hit a switch buried on the dash to activate the cruise? It has been correct in the '03+ as its now on the wheel with the rest of the cruise controls.

    3. Why is the sunroof control no-where near the sunroof? Why do I have to hold the button down to open it?

    Nit-picky - probably, but that is how things improve. Its all about Kaizen.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Simplicity is great, but people want all these new gadgets, and with them come more buttons to operate them. My 03 Accord only has two things I would change. First, I don't really have a problem with where the moonroof button is located, but I do wish it was an auto open and close, so I didn't have to hold it down. Second, I like leather seats, but would rather them not be power operated. I find manual seats easier, and quicker. In 08 I think they solved the moonroof button problem (not sure), but screwed up the A/C vent placement. And it will probably be freezing in hell before they have manually operated leather seats. Life will never be perfect, I guess.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Putting climate control buttons on the steering wheel is a waste. I rarely adjust the climate control as I suspect *most* people rarely adjust them.


    Well you are entitled to your opinion but I don't see that funtionality as a waste but rather a convenience. The standard Ford HVAC system uses 3 large dials and a couple of buttons, as praised above by some, and the auto system uses all buttons. You can only get the steering wheel buttons if you get the auto HVAC system. Since it is harder for most to operate small buttons rather than large knobs it makes perfect sense to duplicate the common functions on the steering wheel when you opt for the auto HVAC system.

    If you don't adjust your HVAC often then you are lucky. In this neck of the woods it's not unusual for the temp to drop 10-20 degrees in a matter of minutes in the Spring, Fall and Winter so adjustments are frequent enough that you'd want an easy to operate HVAC system.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735

    Well you are entitled to your opinion but I don't see that funtionality as a waste but rather a convenience. The standard Ford HVAC system uses 3 large dials and a couple of buttons, as praised above by some, and the auto system uses all buttons. You can only get the steering wheel buttons if you get the auto HVAC system. Since it is harder for most to operate small buttons rather than large knobs it makes perfect sense to duplicate the common functions on the steering wheel when you opt for the auto HVAC system

    In the Ford, the HVAC buttons are placed farther away from the driver, so I can see where steering wheel controls would be needed there. In the Accord the Auto Climate control temperature knob is the closest to the driver, so putting controls on the steering wheel is unnecessary. Doesn't the Auto Climate Control adjust for the varying temperature? I thought that's what it's for?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Simplicity is great, but people want all these new gadgets, and with them come more buttons to operate them.

    Oh, most certainly people do want that stuff. I realize that I am not in the mainstream on that at all.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I set my auto temp control to 68 and be done with it. Have the compressor engaged switch set to auto all year 'round. As I suggested for me it's a waste, but hey...
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Speaking of gadgets and such I believe that integrated turn signals in the outside rear-view mirrors should be standardized and mandatory on all vehicles. Our 2007 Ford Fusion doesn't have this safety feature but I sure wish it did.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Speaking of gadgets and such I believe that integrated turn signals in the outside rear-view mirrors should be standardized and mandatory on all vehicles. Our 2007 Ford Fusion doesn't have this safety feature but I sure wish it did.

    Many Euro cars are required to have repeaters on the sides. I actually retrofitted these to my Contour (the Mondeo has them where the 24v badge sits). The US spec says something about how the turn signals have to be visible to the side to a certain angle, but I don't think its as effective. It also looks cool. :D
  • mz3smz3s Member Posts: 17
    Doesn't the Auto Climate Control adjust for the varying temperature?

    I happen NOT to like auto control. Either its a blast of cold air in your face or steaming hot air sweating out my feet. Gimme knobs with printed temps instead of blue and red and lets call it a day.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, there is something to be said for simple. I like this dash, plain though it is. It's ergonomically simple (note how the main controls are canted towards the driver), has solid and smooth controls (damped, with rubber grips on the HVAC knobs), and high-quality plastics (mostly padded). De-contenting has not affected dashboards on mid-sized cars in a good way over the past few years, IMO.

    image
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Have you tried this feature (Auto Climate Control)? You set it to the temperature you like, and you're basically done. Sure, if the cars been sitting in the sun, on a 98 degree day, you may have to initially turn it up to cool off quicker, but after that, nothing could be simpler. If you're getting a blast of cold air in your face, or steaming hot air on your feet, you need to adjust the temperature, or the vents. :confuse:
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    You do know that the auto climate control works just like the A/C in your house right?

    As matter of fact it's even better. The house A/C unit has to be manually switched from cool to heat but the one in the car is fully automated.

    72 degree means 72 degrees all year long...

    Can't get better than that.
  • mz3smz3s Member Posts: 17
    Get into your car after its been in the sun in 95 degree heat. Turn the a/c on auto and tell me if it blows 72. Its never been my experience that it will blow 72 if you hit auto. Now, if you press the button or turn the knob to 72 that's a different story. But can't you get that with a knob? :confuse:

    No hate, I dont have auto a/c in my car but if it comes with it next time I won't be complaining.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I’m not sure what you’re complaining about, but how is auto blowing in your face worse than manual ac blowing in your face? Besides a simple solution that involves positioning the vent away from your face, auto is designed to maintain a set temperature. I prefer 78 degrees at home and in my car, and that is where I prefer to leave it.

    With manual AC, you have to change the settings frequently. With auto, the system keeps it steady. When at home, do you prefer to have the thermostat in “auto” or “manual” mode?

    I don’t know about the new Accord, but the auto climate control in my Acura TL goes a step further (actually couple of steps further, but I will talk about only one that relates to the topic). It uses GPS to automatically control temperature, depending on the position of the sun relative to the car. And there is no blowing in the face. Besides, you can select the vents too, independently on both sides (the dual mode feature, in addition to dual zone), and if you still prefer manual, hit that AC button, adjust the fan speed and voila!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I don’t know about the new Accord, but the auto climate control in my Acura TL goes a step further (actually couple of steps further, but I will talk about only one that relates to the topic). It uses GPS to automatically control temperature, depending on the position of the sun relative to the car.

    Every other vehicle uses a much simpler sunload sensor that measures the sunlight actually hitting the driver and passenger of the vehicle. Instead of using satellites to coordinate the position of the vehicle on the earth, the other vehicles measure the amount of sun on the occupants and adjust accordingly. Amazing technology :P
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    The most intelligently and user friendly dash design IMO is in 1998-2002 Accord (EX models). It is high enough to still have the road in view even when operating the lowest buttons. Controls are grouped by function and an impressively symmetrical design with clearly identified center. While not the best angle, this picture demonstrates a part of it.
    image

    The center is the preset button “2”. It has a small notch (like “J” and “F” keys on computer’s keyboard). Above the audio controls is buttons/dials for AC. Fan speed dial to the left, temperature control dial to the right and ac/vent control buttons in the middle.

    The quality of material used is impressive, and even after 10 years/181K miles of use, the markings are still intact. They operate with same precision that they did with 4 miles on the odometer.

    But, I won’t compare newer models to the old in terms of design. The basic idea of grouping buttons, and laying them out hasn’t changed at Honda. There are a few more buttons but that is also because there are a whole lot of new features. My 1998 Accord EX-L came with only a CD player and manual AC. Now we’re talking MP3, CD changer, dual zone climate control, navigation system…

    The only way to reduce the number of buttons is go the i-Drive way. I say a big NO to it. Reminds me of a quote by Einstein:
    “Things should be made simple, but not simpler”.

    Honda’s layout generally requires a quick glance to reach out for a defined function. And in some cases (as in my Accord), most of them can be operated without requiring a glance. When I see people complain about Accord’s dash, I just shake my head in disbelief.

    OTOH, the dash in my TL is confusing. Fortunately, I have other options to operate virtually everything (touch screen, steering wheel controls and voice controls). I'm not a big fan of MDX's layout either. It looks good, but everything is squeezed in a small space.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Doesn't the Auto Climate Control adjust for the varying temperature?

    Yes, but if the temp changes outside you may want to change it depending on the system. The auto HVAC in my Mazda6 needed constant adjustment. It was by far the most finickey system I've ever encountered. All most of those things do is cycle hear or A/C and fan speed. If your body temp is warmer or cooler one day or the next you'll want to adjust it. At least I always did.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Non-NAV TL might be using that technology, but there must be something more to it than simply sensing the sun to be overhead or on the side. Perhaps greater precision (if it matters). :)
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Every other vehicle uses a much simpler sunload sensor that measures the sunlight actually hitting the driver and passenger of the vehicle.

    Right, but the position of that and the actual temp sensor varies from car to car. I found that the sensors in the Mazda6 I owned weren't nearly as accurate as those in my dad's 87 Taurus, '96 Sable, and '06 Zephyr. All three of those did an excellent job of keeping the cabin comfy. I had to adjust the one in the 6 quite often and others on the Mazda6 thread would agree with me. We had a long discussion about it over there a while ago. Hopefully they change how that all works for the '09 model.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I haven't had to change temperature on my side in months. The passenger side does get changed frequently. And since the settings are tied to memory, even if a friend of mine (or service folks) changed temp on my side, it goes back to my setting everytime I unlock the door with my primary key.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    The only way to reduce the number of buttons is go the i-Drive way.

    Touch screen will accomplish the same task too.

    I'll take touch screen over joystick/i-Drive in any given day.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It can be much easier than a touch screen. Many cars today use HVAC controls with 3 rotary knobs: mode, fan, and temp. And usually they have at the center of the dials push buttons for recirc and A/C. I find those controls intuitive and extremely easy to use, even with gloves on. They aren't as flashy as a touch screen and they don't cover a center console with a bunch of buttons, but they just plain work.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    3 rotary knobs ain't going to cut it with navigation system.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I use the AAA folding paper system. ;)
    L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Don't see it as all that great, though it has a coolness factor... well at least the first year it did. Guess it wouldn't hurt to have it.

    Now the yellow running lights, down low, like on the Corvettes C5 or the Camaro, was a great idea. Have all the cars use yellow, and placed down low and wide apart in the front of the car. Do away with headlamp running lights. L
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    I really like the auto climate control. I usually set mine for 78*. Although, at this time of year, in the afternoon I'll often "up it" to 80*, just to keep the A/C from coming on. I don't need heat, but the A/C is just a bit cooler than I'd like on this less than 4 miles ride.

    A week and a half ago I started out at 7:30 AM to pick up a buddy to play golf. Temp was set at 78* and was giving heat for a while (not blasting it). When I picked him up we were on the road about 8:15 with about an hour and a half to go to the course we were playing. Sometime during that hour and a half the climate control gradually changed over from heat to A/C automatically, without having to touch any dials or settings. That's the beauty of climate control, it maintains a (nearly) constant temperature, once the engine is warmed up, without the occupants having to make periodic adjustments. (It's like Goldilocks, not too hot or too cold.)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Seems to work just fine with my nav system--eyes and brain. :) And then there are the voice-controlled nav systems--look ma, no hands!
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    Yeah, the thing to understand is that when you set the temp for, say, 68, auto climate systems don't blow 68 degree air, they blow whatever temp you need so that the cabin is 68 degrees. In the summer, that's ac, in the winter thats heat.

    In my 2007 Camry Hybrid with plasmacluster, the system works great. We will never buy a car without it. I had it on my 02 Intrigue as well--the TCH system, not surprisingly, is better. You can still switch between recirc and outside air, so that can temper the veracity of the heating and cooling if you want.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    There is a problem with touch screen. You have to look at it. Many times with buttons, you can get away without having to look for it. Besides, touch screen is a two step process. First, you must activate the screen via a button (so you need one anyway). For example, in my TL, if I wanted to play the third disc, I have following options:
    1. Use voice commands "DVD Play Disc Three"
    2. Press disc selection button (button 3 for third disc)
    3. Press "Audio" button
    Touch "Disc 3" on the screen

    So, while touch screen provides a visual for a quick glance, it also requires a glance and a two step process. Selecting the button 3 requires a glance (and if the button is placed well, then a glance may not be needed, like in the new Accord... just find the third button and press it).

    With something like i-Drive, there is absolutely no way to do things without taking the eyes off. Voice commands is the best way.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I'm not a fan of rotary dials for climate control selections. It is okay for fan speed control but I don't like it for mode or temperature control (especially with auto climate). I guess I'm a digital age guy. As for modes, I find this set up extremely convenient... just point and shoot.

    image

    In fact, I usually don't have to take my eyes off the road to operate this in my Accord. However, in the TL, if I were to fiddle with vents (which I don't), it will be a pain since it cycles thru selection which will require taking eyes off the road. But then, it does offer voice controls as well so cycling isn't needed.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Voice is great for certain things, very short commands, or things that save a visual search through a menu structure. That is one of the reasons its great for phone dialing...Call Bob is better than searching through all the names to find Bob, selecting it, and then having it dial.
    For tuning the radio, with direct presets its easier to reach over and push "1", unless its a touch screen because as Robert pointed out, you have to look. Someone at VTTI did a dissertation on how long it takes to perform all these in-vehicle tasks using different methods. I will post the link if I can find it.
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