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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    The one problem I have with the saturn line is the the dent resistant body pannels. they achieve that by essentialy making them all out of plastic. If you got into an accident in one it would probaly shatter into a million pices. I deffinitly prefer sheet metal on my fenders and door pannels.

    and the cvt is neither new nor unproven. Nissan was just the first to start mass producing them for thier vehicles
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    and don't forget the del sol. the difference with ford is, they do it to popular branded names like taurus, escort. even the probe was meant to replace the mustang. You don't see honda getting rid of the accord, or toyota the camry, or nissan the sentra.

    That is a valid point, I think it has to do with corporate cultures though. Back in the day, domestic manufacturers used to shift model names and trim levels around annually, as a sign of progress. The Japanese makers seem to hold on to names much longer (the 70s Civic isn't real related to today's Civic, etc).
    And not all domestic makers do that, you can still buy a Malibu.

    and I wouldn't realy consider datsun a company. it was just the name nissan marketed their US cars as when they first entered the US.

    Yeah, thats exactly my point, they changed the name but not much else. They didn't change anything about the company but the name. Kind of like the 500 to Taurus thing.

    And going by that, there was also Geo, plymoth, and oldsmobile

    I think retired/out of business names of OEMs are different than names that were changed. Geo turned back into Chevy, so that is similar to the Datsun/Nissan thing, but Plymouth, Oldsmobile, Studebaker, Hudson, etc. went out of business, so that is different.

    I think there will be another category for the companies that went out of business entirely and the name got bought (MG) or ones that just got bought out (Chrysler). This is probably a discussion for another forum though.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The one problem I have with the Saturn line is the the dent resistant body panels. they achieve that by essentially making them all out of plastic. If you got into an accident in one it would probably shatter into a million pieces. I definitely prefer sheet metal on my fenders and door panels.

    If you knew the thickness of that sheet metal and aluminum, you would realize that its not providing much in the way of protection. The frame and side-impact door beams are providing the integrity. Also the reason you get door dings and what not is because the sheet metal is so thin.
    The manufacturing process for the plastic panels is still kind of pricey, I believe even Saturn is going away from that.

    and the cvt is neither new nor unproven. Nissan was just the first to start mass producing them for thier vehicles

    Actually, Subaru was, and it didn't go so well. Then Saturn tried and it didn't go so well either. I will give it a while, although honestly, my personal preference is a manual transmission anyway.
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Correct the Subaru Justy was a 3 cylinder sub-compact marketed before they were generally accepted due to todays high gas prices. This was 1988 or so. It used a CVT transmission (optional) and had a manual 4 speed standard. I'm not sure the transmission itself contributed that much to its ultimate failure however or if it was the overall package...wrong time. It was even available with 4WD and I still see a few around..those that didn't disintegrate due to rust. I test drove one in the day and it wasn't too bad.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    It's not about safety. It's just that all that plastic give it a flimsy, kind of cheap feel to it. But don't get the wrong idea, I have nothing against saturn. I just can't get past that "flimsy" feel to it.

    and i believe saturn still uses a CVT it its vue. But it's nothing revolutionary. I think the concept first appeared a long time ago. the actual design is much simpler than a standard automatic transmission. From what I've read about them, the biggest obstacle was finding a suitable belt that could withstand the torque.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the CVT really pioneered/mass produced by a Scandavian co. called DAF starting back in the late 50s? Used 'real' rubber bands if I recall correctly, in some vey small low HP applications. Also, test drove the new Altima and found it extraordinarily smooth with less torque steer than my wife's 03 V6, if somewhat disconcerting. I guess we'll see how the market accepts them, it does kinda redefine the driving experience - would imagine that some folks won't like it.
  • thenebeanthenebean Member Posts: 1,124
    a few notes with regards to the CVT - Audi has also used them, and Nissan had been using them for 10 years before they put one in the Murano (the first US offering with the CVT for nissan - which has done very well may i add)

    CVT's are great for people who get carsick. without the shift shock, people's stomachs dont get upset and people don't get as nauseated. my mom has a murano, and used to never be able to ride in the back seat of a car because she gets sick. not only can she ride in the back seat of the murano, she can read a book while she's sitting back there as well...thats huge progress for someone who gets car sick!

    just some thoughts :)

    -thene
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Yeah I think Nissan has the best implementation of a CVT on the market right now. I drove an Altima 2.5 and thought it was very responsive to throttle. If I wanted a CVT I would think about that one.
    I still can't get the MazdaSpeed6 out of my head. That was the most fun I've had in a long time. Its biggest drawback is the 93 octane fuel requirement; I'm sure they could make it run on 91, but it wouldn't be as fun.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It requires 93? What about the areas where 93 isn't readily available?

    I always thought cars requiring "premium" took 91 octane, like our Odyssey did.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Yeah I think Nissan has the best implementation of a CVT on the market right now
    agreed, seems to be the one out there that can 'put up' with the HP and torque of the modern engines. Still have my doubts however about the long term durabilities of 270hp 4 bangers.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    when my wife and I traded in our '01 Kia Sportage 4X4 in on a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS. It's funny because I was a staunch supporter of manual tranny's and defended their continued usage in light of the CVT's and paddle-shifters becoming prevalent in newer cars.

    We test drove a Lancer GTS with CVT and really liked it. It is a smooth manner of transmitting the power to the wheels and the acceleration is smooth and steady. There isn't the lurching that is present in standard automatics as the transmission searches for correct gearing.

    I noticed last night coming home from the store that deceleration is fast with this tranny...no sooner had I let up on the accelerator I was quietly drifting to a stop outside our driveway.

    Fuel economy has been around 19mpg city and 31 mpg highway, certainly fair enough for us. We've been driving Kia's the past 8 years, which are heavy vehicles that don't really get maximum gas mileage but are good, steady vehicles that rarely presented us with any problems.

    Since the dealership had my color(Rally Red)and the Lancer GTS had the Sun and Sound package(Rockford Fosgate 650-watt 9-speaker stereo system with subwoofer in the trunk and sunroof)already installed I forgot all about needing a 5-speed manual tranny. My wife(who doesn't drive)offered that she would be comfortable driving this car and my son drives but not stick so the car would work for our family as a whole and I buried my 5-speed desires for this car. I may return some day to sticks but the way it's going they may be on their way out. I am one who hopes they stay around.

    The '08 Lancer GTS has aluminum paddle shifters so I can still play if I want. They work great and you can rev up the rpm's as much has you want and then just "flip" the paddle in the + direction and the small 4-door sedan responds appropriately. I like the idea and this car and it's transmission are a good fit for us. The Lancer GTS is built tight and there are no shakes, rattles or pops anywhere. I read that people have been unhappy with Mitsubishi's interiors for a while but this one is neat and clean and functionality is smartly appointed in the cabin. Mitsubishi is determined to come back and this new Lancer GTS is a great effort by them in that regard.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    It requires 93? What about the areas where 93 isn't readily available?

    I always thought cars requiring "premium" took 91 octane, like our Odyssey did.

    I would assume it would just retard the timing some, like when you run a 91 car on 89 or 87. Most "premium" cars are 91, but Mazda calls out 93 for that bad boy.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The '08 Lancer GTS has aluminum paddle shifters so I can still play if I want. They work great and you can rev up the rpm's as much has you want and then just "flip" the paddle in the + direction

    Yeah I can't get over my thought that its the goofiest cheesiest thing ever. The whole idea is there are no steps, so why would you add them in? I guess I just don't get it.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    pretty sure that you will only find the 93 octane in larger metro areas where the EPA requires ethanol as a 'clean air' additive (down here in Houston, our premium is 93) - but don't fret, the ethanol both pumps the price a bit and costs a little in FE.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Actually, here in Birmingham you have to look hard to find a station WITHOUT 93 Octane, and we use virtually no ethanol.

    I guess we're an anomoly.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Same in Atlanta. 87, 89, 93.
  • bv050506bv050506 Member Posts: 97
    Which is exactly why I went on to make several more points not speed related as to why the Altima was superior to the Aura. The Aura won't last to 80K miles is my best guess.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The Aura won't last to 80K miles is my best guess.

    To be constructive, would you mind telling us why?

    The 3.6L has been around for a few years now, with no major flaws that I've heard of.

    With posts like this mindlessly bashing the Aura, the host will likely be back soon.

    The post about the Altima was good, full of information. It just seems like you are determined to bash the Aura without telling us any "why" info. Would you share with us where your 80k mile logic comes in?
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    the only reason nissan has the best cvt out there is just because they invested more time an money into it than anyone else. same way toyota has the best hybrids on the market, they just worked harder on them. I think most every car company out there has used it on at least one model. Honda had a civic with one, ford used it some in the fiesta. the problme the cvt's had was (as you said) dealing with the greater HP and torque in larger engines. Nissan decided to put more R&D money into solving that than other companies did.

    And as for the future of 270 hp 4 banger, I think your right. In 15 years I doubt many cars will even have combustion engines in them. Once Lithium Ion batteries are perfected, the combustion engine in a car will only be for recharging the battery.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Once Lithium Ion batteries are perfected, the combustion engine in a car will only be for recharging the battery.

    And then I will have to modify my car by changing the number of winds on the motor or the armature or the type and size of magnets used...sounds like an R/C car from back in the day.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    Actually, if your interested in where that technology is heading, do a google search on the chevy volt. Its quite an amazing car. totaly electric powered with a lithium ion battery and combustion engine to recharge the battery (essentialy coverting gasoline to electical energy like a generator) for trips over 50 miles. Its a sedan that seats 4, has about 140 hp, and under the best conditions will never use gas, and under the worst get 150 mpg.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Its quite an amazing car

    It would be even more amazing if it actually worked. Even GM admitted the battery technology required for the Volt doesn't exist.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Is the Volt a midsize sedan? ;)

    Sounds more like a compact at best, since it claims only to seat 4.

    The purported second Tesla vehicle (WhiteStar) is to be a mid-size sedan, but it would be very premature to discuss it here.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    the battery technology is expected to be availble in a year or two. And even though GM has said the batteries are no t ready yet, they were very carfull to say that it wasn't just a concept car. they fully expect to begin production arround 2009 and even named someone to head prduction. something Gm doesn't do untill they've decided the car will be produced. And that not just GM. Nissan just recently entered a joint venture with NEC to develop their own Lithium Ion batteries for a similar plug in car with an estimated date of 2010-2011, and toyota is talking about 2009 date for one also. I'm not sure where honda stands, but I'd be willing to bet they're working on one tool
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    Its a midsize. when they say seats four, they mean four adults.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    here is a pretty good article about it, for those interested.

    link title
  • phaetondriverphaetondriver Member Posts: 175
    This discussion has turned into a future car http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef0d616/
    or Hybrid http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef27a26/
    discussion. Sounds very similar to topics I have read.
    You might want to continue it where you can find more, different, and educated opinions.
    Don't get me wrong, I don't mind it here it is just you might get better participation from one of the other forums.
  • victrolajazzvictrolajazz Member Posts: 75
    "I guess we'll see how the market accepts them, it does kinda redefine the driving experience - would imagine that some folks won't like it."

    It's the VERY reason I bought mine--traded in an '04 VW NB TDI 5 Spd. Had always preferred a manual, but loved the smoothness in conjunction with the performance of the 3.5 V-6. We've gone from two-, three-, four-, five- and even six-speed automatics--STOP! How does one ever get into high gear in everyday stop-and-go driving? Also, the CVT reminds me of the old Buick Dynaflow transmissions of 1948-1963, except without the slip--and especially the ones from 1955-1963 with the switch-pitch variable torque converter. That same device was applied to the 1965-1967 Turbo-Hydramatics in Buicks, Oldses and Cadillacs. When I press the Altima's accelerator past a certain point, it has the jump associated with the Variable Pitch Turbo-Hydramatics.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the smoothness factors you mention are some of the reasons that folks will like it. The sensation of driving the thing is, however, almost like driving backwards, depending on how hard and fast you step on the accelerator the engine will set to a speed, and then, the car seems to 'catch up' as the gears slide seamlessy under you. No more of the rev up to shift point, rev up to shift point etc. etc. - it is different.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    I still can't get the MazdaSpeed6 out of my head. That was the most fun I've had in a long time. Its biggest drawback is the 93 octane fuel requirement; I'm sure they could make it run on 91, but it wouldn't be as fun.

    I also took the MazdaSpeed6 for a ride a couple weeks ago and compared to my v-6 Mazda6, it's quite a bit faster and more balanced b/c of AWD. I had a chance to drive the car along a curvy route that I often take w/ my 6, and the MS6 had much less understeer and accelerated out of corners much better. Seems that the MS6's torque comes in much quicker and it has quite a bit more pull. Also, I think the MS6 comes with stickier rubber, so grip was much better. What a blast! I was actually wondering if I was scaring the salesguy on my test drive... :P

    I think most of the gas around here is 91, so if that's a step down in power for the MS6, it's still quite good.

    I was very tempted to do a deal, but then since I bought my car a little more than a year ago, I didn't think it would be very responsible. And when it came down to it, I still love how my car handles when I want to push it a bit. Plus the stopping power in a normal Mazda6 is amazing... I think I remember hearing 60-0 in 120 feet. With the typical inattentive driver out there, this has come in handy a couple times already :) But I was very impressed with the mazdaspeed. Even in the dry, like my testdrive was in, the AWD managed power much better than just a front wheel drive car. Granted, my 6 only has 215 HP, but even that can get a bit too much for a fwd car at times. Add in the many days of wet weather we get in the NW, AWD would be that much more valueable.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    are there when you want to move through gears to keep your hands busy, that's why we need to have them.

    I mean, if you've already downed your cheeseburger, gloppy cherry donut and standard Coca-Cola and you're just plowing ahead in 'D", what fun is that?

    Smoking is not an option so why not magnesium paddle-shift through some + or - Mitsubishi CVT "graduations" in your sporty sedan? Makes perfect sense to me!

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Its a midsize. when they say seats four, they mean four adults.

    Okay, usually they claim seating for 5, even in compacts.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The market for cars like the Contour, Mazda 626, and compact Altima sort of vaporized

    I guess we are odd balls, not only did I have a contour and like the size of it, but my wife and I each now have cars that kind of staddle that compact/midsize dividing line. A Jetta for her and a Mazda6 for me.
  • jd10013jd10013 Member Posts: 779
    It's the VERY reason I bought mine--traded in an '04 VW NB TDI 5 Spd. Had always preferred a manual, but loved the smoothness in conjunction with the performance

    Its funny, but the altima i bought was the first car I've had without a stick in about 20 years. Untill I test drove the cvt altima, i had no intention of switching from my reliable stick shifts. But after researching it some, and actually test driving it, i was sold. And I always absolutely hated autos. I even badgered my wife into going down a trim level in her civic to get a stick.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The easy way to drive one of these is to drive it exactly like you would a typical 2-stroke dirtbike. Wring the accelerator and then let up once you get to your desired speed. Driven this way, its fun and quick, though gas mileage obviously suffers some.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    are on there way out. Way back when, manuals would give you a good 5MPG advantage over auto transmissions. Today, its not so. Across the board auto manufacturers have built great auto transmissions. The other issue is shifting constantly in traffic. The fact is most people use P, R and D 99 percent of the time.. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    "Which is exactly why I went on to make several more points not speed related as to why the Altima was superior to the Aura. The Aura won't last to 80K miles is my best guess"

    I too am interested in how you know this? :confuse:
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    that's funny because that's exactly how it went with me. The added functionality of being able to have my wife drive it and/or my son when he's visiting from the Seattle area sold it to us.

    And I was driving stick since acquiring my '99 Kia Sephia in May of '99. I was fully set to only buy sticks for who knows how many umpteen-odd years. The fact that Mitsubishi says we're supposed to get 22mpg city(one better than the 5-speed stick)and 29 mpg highway(same as the stick)only made it all the more a no-brainer. The 2.0L 152hp Mitsu motor carries the new Lancer GTS around quite competently.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I too am interested in how you know this?

    Me to !!!! I read in the accord thread that GM, cars don't last 50,000 miles so this isn't the first I heard about these type of ridiculous claims. ;)

    The bottom line is if you are one of those who doesn't consider Buick, a luxury brand in about three years you will wished you had with the 2010' Buick Velite Sedan.
    It's built on the Zeta architecture with 400-450 hp via either a Twin-Turbo, Delphi Direct Injection, "High Feature" V6 or the Northstar replacement "ULTRA V8" stuffed under the hood with RWD, chrome paddle shifters, and six-gears to flick, Delphi's awesome Magneride system gives you superior handling performance and ride comfort. This car like most buick's we are seeing today have the gadgetology like Acura or Lexus.

    I know I'm talking about the future and the LaCrosse, is the buick model we have to judge now. The Lacrosse, has been updated. It now has a much nicer interior. The LaCrosse "Super" get's a LS-4 V8 with 300 hp. and 323lbs of Tq. I believe GM, now has the most powerful FWD midsize auto's on the market. I myself would rather have the Lucerne "Super" but would like a chance to drive a LaCrosse "Super" this summer. :)

    -Rocky
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The bottom line is if you are one of those who doesn't consider Buick, a luxury brand in about three years you will wished you had with the 2010' Buick Velite Sedan.

    Eh, I wouldn't say what we're gonna be wishing for. ALL automakers will be advancing just like Buick, and will have come a long way in 2010 I would imagine. I can't picture myself in 2010, at age 22 (assuming I have some $), shopping for a Buick. BMW? Maybe. Acura? Quite possibly. Lexus? ZzZzZz... Buick? Let me get my cardigan and we'll talk.

    They may be fine cars. I am one who places image WAY down on my list (I drive a 4-door, 4-cylinder Honda; not the coolest of cars), but I can't see myself shopping for a Buick anytime soon, if ever.
  • exshomanexshoman Member Posts: 109
    Just curious, how come you didn't teach your son to drive a stick? I've been teaching my 16 year old daughter to drive a stick, and while she was reluctant at first (why shift for yourself if you can have the car do it?), she's gotten quite proficient at it. She still sometimes burns a bit of rubber moving out in first (it's a 4 cylinder 2006 accord), but she just looks over at me and grins.

    Looking forward to teaching my son in a few years. A chance for some quality father-son time.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I moved some posts here: rockylee, "Mainstream Large Sedans Comparison" #2054, 30 Apr 2007 10:31 pm.

    Let's try to stick to the midsize cars in this topic.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I mean, if you've already downed your cheeseburger, gloppy cherry donut and standard Coca-Cola and you're just plowing ahead in 'D", what fun is that?

    Smoking is not an option so why not magnesium paddle-shift through some + or - Mitsubishi CVT "graduations" in your sporty sedan? Makes perfect sense to me!

    So for all this talk that the CVT is so efficient, why would you want to make it inherently inefficient? There are no "graduations" its just a belt and two pulleys moving apart. I would be surprised if the car wasn't faster when left on its own than when using the video game controls.
    That said, if its fun for you and you enjoy it, who cares how inefficient it is :P
  • bv050506bv050506 Member Posts: 97
    I apologize about the Aura 80K miles comment. I was actually just joking. I have no real evidence of it, but admit I've never been a GM fan. I've owned 36 cars and only 3 have been GM. I never cared much for styling, or fit and finish. But the Aura is a nice vehicle. Sorry if I offended anybody with my wise crack!
  • phaetondriverphaetondriver Member Posts: 175
    I wondered (too) what you had in mind. I have only owned 1 GM car in the past 45 years and that was a 72 Vega Kamback. It was good for about 20K-miles then I melted the engine when the thermostat froze closed :mad:
    Anyway I now am the very proud owner of a Aura XR. It is very quick, handles like a sports car (well almost) and gets better mileage than my Cadillac. The fit and finish are the best I have seen in a decade, on an american car.

    I suggest you revisit GM and especially Saturn. I think you will be surprised at what the New Saturn is doing with there quality control.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    cars have certainly gotten better from a durability perspective over the years (as well as more expensive) and it wasn't all that long ago that a car with 50 or 60k on it was deemed 'worn out'.
    The question I pose for all to comment on is what do we really expect these days to be reasonable repair costs outside of maintainence items such as tires, brakes, batteries, fluid changes, belts/hoses, possibly CV joints etc. My vote will go for 150k with no reliability related failures over a time period of 6-7 years or so. This would be how I personally define a 'good' car. To me, these long term drivetrain or extended warranties mean little because as a rule I haven't had anything of real consequence go wrong within those time/mileage frames for the last several cars I've purchased new - most of them Altimas. In any case - thoughts - 150k unrealistic? or maybe not too many folks keeping their cars that long?
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    or maybe not too many folks keeping their cars that long?

    Not me. New every 3-4 years. My wife too. So we have a new vehicle in the garage every 2 years. Put no money down and trade 'em in for the payoff on the vehicle (works cause we've been buying Hondas and Toyotas).

    Cars are becoming an expensive hobby over here. But worth it.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I expect 100k mile reliability out of any car as a minimum, and I am disappointed if they have major issues prior to the 10yr/150k mark. I maintain vehicles to a very high standard (I wouldn't hesitate to drive my '93 across the country), and I don't dink them for piddly stuff, wear items, or things due to abuse or neglect.

    I have owned or been responsible for both foreign and domestic and all but one (a "domestic" vehicle with a Japanese engine) have performed to that level. I have been very happy with the performance, durability and reliability of all the other vehicles.

    I think I am rare in that I haven't felt super burned by any manufacturer, I feel open to purchasing anything that meets my needs and wants. :)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    New every 3-4 years. My wife too
    can't imagine that unless your annual mileage is low, you wouldn't eventually get 'upside down' on you loan amounts eventually (even with Camcords). But a helluva luxury, never even worrying about half of what I would consider 'normal' maintainence. Will you . . . BTW . . . marry me? I do have my eye on that 270hp Altima! ;)
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I do have my eye on that 270hp Altima!

    Me too. Beautiful, awesome car. I like it more than the Maxima. It'll be interesting to see what Honda has up its sleeve for the 08 Accord to combat it, altho 270 hp is pushing it (or should I say pulling it) for a FWD car.
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