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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Explain to me how did Accord gain 3 cu ft? You guys are making it sound like the increase in dimensions went nowhere.

    Width is a big chunk of that, I bet.

    I think a lot of length went into the fact that the car has more style (good or bad) than the previous more practically shaped model. Same thing happened with the Civic I think.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    My opinion on the new Accord...
    Like the overall exterior design. Lack of standard bodyside mouldings and bulging headlights are two items I would change.
    Climate and audio seem to be a bit busy with too many buttons. I'd prefer more dials though after I spent more time with the car it might change my opinion.

    Did not drive it, so no driving impression.

    Will be interesting to compare it with the new Mazda6 and Malibu once they are available.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    This is where I don't find a lot of importance in the cabin volume stat... if it doesn't result in more room for the passenger or driver as measured by leg room or shoulder room, what good is it? Who knows, maybe some of this extra square feet is below the windshield or back window in which case it has little impact on passenger comfort. To me, passenger comfort is more related to the space that a person needs to fit in so leg room and body room are the key measurements not cabin volume. Volume is important for a trunk, though, since that is where you will put stuff anywhere in it's area and not in assigned spots like people.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    There is a fractional gain in leg room, and some of the use of length may have gone into the trunk space. I mentioned VDA method for that reason and since we're nitpicking on inches, if the additional space isn't large enough for a "VDA block", it is left unaccounted for.

    Accord's primary gain in interior volume comes in front seat headroom, shoulder room and hip room (which saw the most improvement but it is not a part of cabin volume measurements, only legroom, headroom and shoulder room are).

    As for width, Honda added 1.5" to the track which brings with it a shorter turning radius than 2007 despite of longer wheelbase and larger tires. The track grew more than the overall width, which also provides for a squarish footprint for greater stability, a Honda tradition.

    Longer wheelbase is used primarily to improve ride quality. Also worth noting is that Honda bumped up the size of the fuel tank from 17.1 to 18.5 and moved it further, but lower, towards the front.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    As I mentioned in my previous post, cabin volume accounts for only:
    Head room (front and rear)
    Leg room (front and rear)
    Shoulder room (front and rear)

    So, it doesn’t account for space under the windshield or the rear glass. You can’t add space under the windshield and add EPA volume to the size. At least one of the three measurements quoted above will have to change.

    That said, those measurements don’t necessarily depict everything. There are set points from which those measurements are performed. So, if I were measuring leg room, I could push the lower part of dash further at that point and advertise a longer legroom (and in turn, gain EPA volume). But it is unlikely to be appreciated in reality unless people fit those measurement criteria.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    But a double wishbone suspension is a good thing. Perhaps more costly to manufacture, but a good thing for handling no doubt. If I needed more trunk space, I guess a minivan or suv may be the call of the day. Honda trunks look large to me, but then again I once owned a Corolla and a Miata, so any trunk looks huge. ;)L
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Yep. In Accord, double wishbone is not for namesake. To me, it is a huge selling point. Someone who notices small things will really appreciate what it brings to the plate.

    To me, 14 cu ft of useful space is plenty. There are a few cars with as much or more advertised volume but not as practical. I fit more stuff and easily in my Accord (also attributable to wider openings). I have never understood why people want more (Taurus, for example, has a whopping 21 cu ft of trunk space).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well that's a REALLY easy answer -

    I took a road trip to Oklahoma City (750 miles away) with two friends this summer. We spent 6 days, and had the clothes for a trip of this duration. My 2006 Accord's trunk was at capacity with all of our "stuff." We originally had 4 of us going total, and I'm glad we didn't; we couldn't have fit the last persons stuff in without leaving some things behind.

    When you can have more without a penalty elsewhere, more will always be better than less.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Assuming equal space distribution for the three of you, the fourth person would have forced you to have at least 19 cu ft of trunk space. Perhaps only Taurus would have worked in that case. :D
  • effect18effect18 Member Posts: 41
    Personally i'd take more legroom in the backseat(although I never sit in the back) or possibly a reclining back seat(nice touch that utilizes extra trunk space) over a larger trunk anyday. My Sonata's trunk has plenty o' space, i've yet to run into an instance where I didn't have enough cargo space.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    A longer warranty won't help Honda sell. It's the same reason most logical sane people don't buy an extended warranty, they are worthless for Honda's and Toyotas.

    Bad tranny you say.....Honda covers them for free whether you bought the extension or not.... They step up to the plate when needed.

    On another note....If I was a GM or Chrysler customer that bought one month before the warranty extension, I'd be boycotting the dealership until they give me the same; of course, it would of been my own stupidity for accepting the original offer w/o the long warranty....
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    RE: Trunk space

    I guess you don't play golf and/or have never taken a 3 some or more on a golf day trip.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    They still don't put kids in the trunk when sneaking into the drive-ins, do they? I know, what's a drive-in, an eating joint? Are there any drive-in movies left? How many recall what the movies seen were all about?

    Now the real old days when a trunk was a trunk, was pretty bad. Talk about an afterthought once the car was invented. :surprise: Ooops, we gotta take stuff along, other than just Grandma and Grandpa! L
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I definitely remember cramming kids into the trunk to get into the SLO drive in, and that was in the 90s. Either that or having a bunch of us lay down in the back of a p/u truck. Ahhh those were the days :P
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Chrysler is back dated to 2007 models, so that is not an issue. I believe GM just said sorry, but I may be wrong. Have not checked into it lately for any change of heart.

    A longer warranty is a good thing on any and all automobiles. It adds value to a car and added protection while you have the car. Pretty simple. L
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    The Los Osos fog was not a good thing. But sneak in some brews and your favorite gal, and all was well. Some really terrible movies, but that was OK. A drive in was all about the fun factor and not the movie quality.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yet, and you either missed it or deliberately left it out, all those increases have added up to increase the interior volume to 106 cu ft, larger than any of its direct competitors and on par with bigger cars.

    I could also say that you either missed it or deliberately left it out, but Accord's total interior volume is less than that of at least one other car in this class, by nearly 2 cubic feet. I won't mention which car that is because you or someone else will just jump all over me about it, say something about who I work for or what stock I own, and we don't need more of that kind of stuff here.

    But it's good that you have pointed out that because of a design decision Honda made on the Accord, it has less cargo volume than some other cars in this class that are several inches shorter (or even smaller than some some compact cars). So in the future when you or someone else mentions something about a mid-sized car that's not positive, we can just say, "That was a design decision by the manufacturer." :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It's the same reason most logical sane people don't buy an extended warranty, they are worthless for Honda's and Toyotas.

    OK, I'll bite: if most logical, sane people don't buy extended warranties and they are worthless for Hondas and Toyotas, why do Honda and Toyota offer then on their new cars? Let me guess: for all the illogical, insane people who buy Toyotas and Hondas? :)
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    I never thought of buying a car by the cubic foot. Guess the Crown Vic is a bargain, or is it just big on the outside. How many dollars per cubic foot is the Accord? :confuse: L
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I am wondering about some of the long term durability issues as well. My '93 Accord had metal covers over the control arm bolts to protect them and keep them from rusting. It also protected the upper ball joint. That cover is missing on the '07. I noticed a few things like that, the way the lower control arms are mounted, and the steering rack are different and less protected/shielded.
    I guess time will tell.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    How big trunk do you need for golf day trip? It won't be worse than a weekend trip for two, a dog and with a large cooler, would it?

    Excuses... keep 'em coming. :)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    "At least one car" makes for a fantastic argument. At least you didn't go out on a limb and compare it to Taurus... a whopping 9 cu ft advantage over Accord. For sake of fun...
    Mazda6: 111 cu ft
    Accord: 120 cu ft
    Taurus: 129 cu ft

    Accord is merely midpack, in terms of length, width and cubic footage. :D

    That said, buying based on cubic footage I do when it comes to appliances. I just returned from Home Depot looking for wine coolers as a matter of fact. :P

    Cars, OTOH, have to be a lot more than that.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Hey backy...

    My guess: his answer will be for the money-hungry dealers to make money.

    My personal view: partially to make money for dealers, partially to be able to say "we'll match Hyundai's warranty" and figure it into the price, partially because Honda's are in fact machines with parts that wear out, or break. They are not the invincible machines that last 50 years with nothing but maintenance. Are they reliable? Yep. Most surveys put 'em above average; some at the top of the class. Are they perfect? Nope. My 2006 Accord had warranty work done twice in 1,000 miles for a loose interior rear-view mirror (the glass was not glued to the plastic housing, causing MAJOR vibration issues) as well as a gas flap with a tendency not to open.

    Perfect? Nope. Wasn't enough to make me dislike my car (I didn't buy it on perfect reliability alone, but for a plethora of reasons including, but-not-limited-to, dependability).

    I think there are Hondas that come from the factory with no flaws (unlike my vehicle which had two). I also think that there are Hyundais and Fords and Chevrolets and Subarus and Mazdas etc... that come this way too.

    Andres, I'm a Honda guy. Between me, my parents, my grandparents, and my great aunt there are 6 Hondas, and only 1 Nissan. 86% of my immediate family's vehicles are Hondas! But guess what, they aren't all flawless.

    1996 Accord LX - 175k, several repairs, currently has moderately worn shocks, never stranded b/c of the repairs
    1997 Civic LX - ~113k, alternator, exhaust system 2 years ago(we live in Alabama where we haven't had snow in 7 years)
    2002 Accord LX - 89k, rattle in the dash, too-tight throttle linkage yet-to-be addressed
    2005 Odyssey EX cloth - 35k, misaligned rear bumper, tailgate rubber seal not properly in place, airbag sensor recall, whistling windshield 50-60MPH
    2006 Accord EX cloth - 24k, (((See Above)))
    2007 Civic EX - 26k, NONE

    Listed above are the Hondas in my family, their mileage, and their problems. I drive all these cars at least once a month, with emphasis on the three Accords.

    As you can see, with the exception of dad's new Civic, they are all far from perfect. My aunt's Odyssey has required a nice long time in the shop for all of its issues.

    I'm a Honda guy, but I'm not bowing at the big "H," and after seeing and feeling the interior in the new Accord, I may not be driving away in an Accord at my next purchase opportunity. I am nit-picky about interiors, and was very disappointed by the 2008s.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Taurus: 129 cu ft

    Not in this class of vehicles though. A Grand Marquis is bigger than a Yaris is, too! :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    This works other ways. For example, why would anyone need a passenger volume of 106 cubic feet on a mid-sized car? That's much more than anyone needs, unless they have some sort of gland problem. And who needs 190 hp on a four-cylinder family car? Or 260+ hp on a V6 family car? How fast do you need to go to the grocery store, anyway??

    If Accord has a feature or attribute, it is a Good Thing. If it doesn't have a feature or is lacking in some attribute compared to the competition, no one needs that feature or attribute. At least, that is what I've gathered from this discussion.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    IIRC, Honda and Toyotas don't offer extended warranties. It is a third party deal. OTOH, Honda and Toyota warranties are straight forward and not convoluted like Hyundai. I'm surprised by many that they don't have a clue about Hyundai's ten year warranty being non-transferable outside of "relationship sales". So, why does Hyundai do that?

    And speaking of warranties, Honda and Toyota offer shorter (5-year/60K mile powertrain) warranty on new cars, but they extend it to 100K miles on certified used cars. This allows used cars have better value. In fact, one could find a six year old Accord right now, and if Honda certified, it would be covered under warranty for miles remaining up to 100K. (In Hyundai's case, the car cannot be older than 4 years, and must have less than 48K miles on it).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Ask C&D. They were one of the reviewers who would often put Accord's size as one of its cons.

    So, how much cabin size/trunk size is good for you? Do you assign it a number, or do you go by actual experience (comfort, driving position etc)? How about power? Believe me, Accord EX-L/NAV would be my choice if I do go for the Accord, and not because it has 190 HP versus 177 HP. I couldn't care less about 150 HP versus 200 HP ten years ago!

    So, why exactly do you have a problem with these?

    And no, I don't think all Accord's features make sense to me. I'm one of those people who thinks Honda could have done a few things differently than they did (in terms of features). The discussion gets to the point that apparently you've been gathering, thanks to Hyundai flag wavers. :p (sorry colloquor, couldn't resist stealing your words).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Class be damned. We aren't going to compare full size cars only to full size cars going by EPA's definition. For me, family sedan it is, it could be the tiny Mazda6 or the behemoth Taurus, and everything in between.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, the host is likely to ask you to create a new comparo, because the Taurus is not intended as a competitor to the vehicles in here. It's also not included in the listed vehicles in this forum. Ford's entry here is the Fusion.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Why do Honda and Toyota have to offer extended warranties on used cars, if they are so reliable?

    This web page looks to me like Honda offers extended warranties. Note the words "factory backed," for example. The company that underwrites an extended warranty (typically an insurance company, since extended warranties are in effect insurance policies) is irrelevant to who offers, sells, and backs the warranty. Honda Care is advertised by Honda, sold by Honda dealers, and backed by Honda.

    http://www.hondafinancialservices.com/Planning/honda.asp

    And I'm not sure what you mean by Hyundai's "convoluted" warranty. Its terms are very clear to me, a Hyundai owner. If other Hyundai owners don't take a few minutes to read the warranty on their cars, how does that make the warranty "convoluted"?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Then I will ask the host if we should be discussing Accord and Sonata here. :P
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Why do Honda and Toyota have to offer extended warranties on used cars, if they are so reliable?

    Do you believe companies offer warranties if they sell products that aren't reliable?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Oh c'mon now. We discuss the Azera in the full-size discussion, as it is designed to compete with those sedans. We discuss the Sonata here for the same reason.

    I'm just repeating what pat had told me before when I mentioned the Accord in the full-size sedans forum.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I will wait for Pat. :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Your comments are interesting, given that a short time ago you brought to our attention the fact that the Accord has more passenger space (106 cubic feet) than any car we are discussing here. So I took that to mean that you believe the the sheer interior volume of the Accord was a positive feature of the car. But when I pointed out that another car in this class offers more interior space, suddenly cabin/trunk space is no longer important to you, now it's all about "actual experience" (comfort, driving position, etc.).

    I don't have any problem with the Accord's features. I think it has lots of good features (although I am one who thinks hp in family sedans is getting out of hand). I just get kind of tired with people holding up attributes of the Accord as great things, until it's pointed out that some competitor has more, or has some feature the Accord doesn't have. Then it's, "oh, that really isn't important." If we are going to compare cars, we can at least be fair about it. Some cars do some things better than others. Accord shines in a number of areas. But it doesn't mean it trumps competitors in all facets.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Do you believe companies offer warranties if they sell products that aren't reliable?

    You have a good point. I guess that means mid-sized cars with longer warranties, e.g. Avenger, Sebring, Galant, Optima, and Sonata, are quite reliable.
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Yes - Hyundai posts the whole enchilada on the warranty, in great detail. And it is not all that long a read, and pretty easy to comprehend. Most companies do not. - Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Member Posts: 4,551
    Avenger and Sebring are less desirable, as in not selling well, thus a longer warranty to help move stock. Dittos on Galant. The Optima and Sonata still have the stigma associated with Korean cars after the earliest efforts fell short, and thus a longer warranty. And in general, it is matching those other cars within the same league. Honda and Camry may choose like warranties, and the two may wish to match say Nissan if they have some extra super warranty and start selling more cars. The warranty wars are nothing new. Ford, Chrysler and GM all did that number years ago. It is an old dance. Those extra long warranties as in from here to eternity are usually out of desperation however. Kia and Hyundai are still, right or wrong, here in import car land, not seen as having the same status as the Japan makes. This could take a decade, though who really does know how long, to turn around where it comes to perceived quality and goodness of product between Korea and Japan. Heck, many see this as an opportunity to buy the Korean product at lower prices, with longer warranty, and are very happy indeed with their decision to venture into the future of a possible world of equality amongst Korean and Japan brands. Bold Moves. Oh doh, that's someone else. :blush:Loren
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I guess that means mid-sized cars with longer warranties, e.g. Avenger, Sebring, Galant, Optima, and Sonata, are quite reliable.

    Longer warranties, if you look at the reliability ratings, do not mean the car is more reliable. Maybe these manufacturers are hoping the cars are sold to someone else (who the warranty cannot be transferred to) before there are major problems. So I guess if the car is not so hot, there's a good chance of that.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Longer warranties, if you look at the reliability ratings, do not mean the car is more reliable. Maybe these manufacturers are hoping the cars are sold to someone else (who the warranty cannot be transferred to) before there are major problems.

    OK... so the fact that Honda's extended warranty is longer (in miles at least) than that of Hyundai or Kia or Mitsubishi or many others does NOT mean that the Accord is more reliable than the mid-sized cars from these other brands? This is getting kind of confusing! :confuse:
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Accord isn't considered more reliable based on length of its warranty. You're the one digging this up, and getting confused in the process. :sick:
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    You were complaining about exterior size and made it sound like "where did it go". I followed it up. Now, you're complaining again, with the examples I quoted.

    Trunk size and cabin volume has never been the primary focus of my purchase. You're the one throwing things around and creating a mess. Didn't I say it couple of days ago that if I wanted to go cheaper than Accord, I would go Civic?

    I just get kind of tired with people holding up attributes of the Accord as great things, until it's pointed out that some competitor has more, or has some feature the Accord doesn't have.

    I won't be surprised if Chery (when it arrives in America) has far more features. Would that make them benchmarks?

    Seriously, If I couldn't afford it, I'd be willing to let go of a feature or two to drive a better car. You can't convince buyers like me to buy a car based on discounted price and additional features. They are all that for a reason!
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    My warranty also outbrakes all of the warranties in this class. Plus, my warranty looks much better than yours. I can fit a bookshelf in my warranty, which is something none of the other warranties can do. And my warranty is much more fun than the other warranties in this class while not sacrificing comfort, practicality, or reliability (JD Powers and Consumer Reports both indicate that over a 5 year history, the difference between the most reliable and below average cars is less than 1 problem over that 5 years). Combined with the fact that I can buy my warranty for more than a few thousand dollars less than other warranties is nice frosting on this warranty cake. All in all, I really like my warranty. I also like the car that comes with it...
  • stlpike07stlpike07 Member Posts: 229
    Robertsmx,

    Toyota does offer extended warranties. I purchased my 3 year/50,000 mile warranty through Toyota. It is called the Platinum Extended Warranty....I got it for a little under $600 and can cancel it at the end of my lease if I'm under my mileage and receive a refund for the remainder.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    OK... so the fact that Honda's extended warranty is longer (in miles at least) than that of Hyundai or Kia or Mitsubishi or many others does NOT mean that the Accord is more reliable than the mid-sized cars from these other brands?

    Indeed not, and the long warranty on the Hyundai does not mean it's more reliable either. It just means Hyundai is taking the chance that you will sell the car, before major repairs are needed. Since it's a less desirable car, I can see how they would come to that conclusion. ;)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    says it best: zzzoom6, "Midsize Sedans 2.0" #5869, 24 Sep 2007 9:16 pm

    Let's drop the warranty arguments - they have nothing to do with the actual features of the cars and all you folks are doing is just baiting each other.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    I think you are right on with that. I don't very much think that we will ever be seeing ANY of todays cars running around the area in say 20-30 yrs, but something like those older VW's and many others are still plugging along. Granted they aren't the ideal vehicle, or for that matter even a desireable one but they are still around and running (? after a fashion?) How many of today's will be able to say that. My guess is with the electronics, and hydraulics, etc involved not very many will make it to that length of time. My own opinion.
    van
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Pat, to clarify: are you saying we shouldn't talk about warranties at all here? What about things like resale value and pricing? Those aren't features of a car either, but I think you would agree they are important factors for many people in choosing a car. And they factors that are mentioned in most reviews Edmunds.com does on cars--along with warranties.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I am saying that we've beaten the warranties to death and we need to get back to the actual cars. If you want to argue the point, email me please.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No, I am just asking for a clarification, not an argument. Thank you, and have a great day.
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