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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    We averaged just under 23 mpg during a 1300+ mile trip in our V6 Explorer which is rated at 13 city and 19 highway under the new standard. If you read the fine print you'll see that they also provide a range for the city and highway estimates. So basically those two big bold numbers you see on the window stickers are actually averages too.

    It's not hard to increase your gas mileage when you do a lot of highway driving IMO. I always compensate for weight by adding a pound or two of air to the tires and limit drag by not putting things on the roof if I can avoid it.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I wasn't naming names either. Just making a point that some of us seem more realistic, and some of us are more optimistic. I, for one, have found flaws in several Honda vehicles (my aunt's 2005 is a great vehicle to drive, for a van, but it has been very problematic. So much so, that they can't fix all of them (whistling windshield)). But I think all vehicles can be problematic in some instances. Honda isn't as immune from problems as you (among others) tend to imply around here.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Being as he is averaging less than 9K miles a year in that Thunderbird, I suppose that's the ONE way to get a Ford to last 10 years! :P

    He should be careful with all of his vehicles approaching 100K miles (other than his Fusion).

    Let's see what the next 50K brings for him.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    If you read the fine print you'll see that they also provide a range for the city and highway estimates.

    Yes they do, and they have made me think... why do they bother sticking with one number then? They should just provide a range, and be done with it.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    "I am talking about how a car operate in years 6-10. Those are the critical years, as every car will begin to have problems, but it is the amount/quantity and severity of those problems that counts!"

    Six to ten years with the cars of today is nothing. Practically all cars with proper preventive maintenance will easily go ten plus years and 150K miles without any major problems. Now, the real test of a car's long-term reliability and quality is 20+ years. Check back then, and let me know how it's doing.

    Each car I've owned for 10 to 20 years didn't begin to show any significant problems until about the 12 to 14 year mark. I have a 22 year old daily driver that still hasn't required any mechanical powertrain work, except for a clutch replacement at around the 170K mile level, and that was 9 years ago.

    The least amount of time I've ever kept a car is 12 years.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    The MPG estimates (city & highway) apply to the vehicle to which the sticker is affixed. The range IIRC, applies to vehicles of a similar size, regardless of engine size in those other vehicles.

    Just saw a Maseratti today at a restaurant. Not too many parking spaces away was a Miata. Isn't kind of "government mentality" to compare these two cars of similar size in the same range comparison for MPG?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Not quite. 6-10 year makes more sense because cars generally get out of their warranty period around that time, and people don't buy cars to hold on to for 20+ years.

    And no, there are cars that are trouble prone well before they see 150K miles (if they ever see that).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    When I'm looking at my mpg, I am really looking at what my vehicle gets. I don't care about what other vehicles in the class are rated at. Now, if I were driving any of those vehicles, I certainly would expect to meet or beat their EPA ratings.

    And speaking of class, I think it is done by weight not by size. So, a 4000 lb compact car won't be in the same class as a 2500 lb compact.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    I was just replying to your post # 6034 and wasn't questioning your actual MPG...I generally do better than the EPA estimate even though I drive less than 3 miles to work and most all of my driving is under 5 miles from destination to destination.

    I'm pretty sure, will have to check at my office Monday (if I remember), that the range shown on the sticker is based upon EPA size definitions, not weight of the car.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I found it on EPA's website. For cars it is by EPA size class and for light trucks it is by weight. (link)
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    One of the main reasons people don't keep their vehicles 10 years usually is probably because domestics don't last that long.

    The first car I remember my parents owning was a Ford Torino, I don't know the year. Next was a '78 LTD II, next an '87 Taurus, next a '96 Sable, and now an '06 Zephyr. A '91 Escort was in there too as a second car (replaced with a Hyundai Accent in 2004). None had high mileage but all were pushing 100k miles. The only problem any of them had was the '96 Sable. The power antenna broke after about 5 or 6 years and after roughly 8 years my dad had to have a CO2 sensor replaced. That's it. No other problems.

    Note that some of them lasted more than 10 years. For all we know all of them are still on the road as all were traded or sold in very good condition.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Yes they do, and they have made me think... why do they bother sticking with one number then? They should just provide a range, and be done with it.


    Agreed. When you really take a hard look and figure out their methods, getting more than their posted numbers isn't all that impressive. Mainly because they state that it is possible.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Test
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Accord EX-LV6 has 4-way power seat for passenger side. And, all Accord trims (except LX) have 8-way power seat. In addition, power lumbar support is standard in all but LX and LX-P trims.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Accord EX-LV6 has 4-way power seat for passenger side. And, all Accord trims (except LX) have 8-way power seat. In addition, power lumbar support is standard in all but LX and LX-P trims.

    Enlightening, Robert. Thanx. The lumbar support and the seat back position adjustments are manual on the driver's seat on our 2007 SEL Fusion and the passenger seat is totally manual. Advantage Accord.

    Convenient seat adjustment is an item of interest because my wife and I both drive the car and use differing positions. Of course, luxury mid-size sedans have memory seating, which would be ideal in our case.
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Member Posts: 542
    "Okay, that is your and your family's experience. Let's talk about the cars themselves, okay?"

    This is going to be a very, very boring discussion if we can't talk about our experiences as related to cars.

    Whats left? Stats? Photos? Who has the nicest brochure?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Has the highest rating of the cars listed at the top of this forum from Edmund users, with over 20 ratings being the minimum for my standards....
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    I can understand the importance of convenient seat adjustment. With that said, I can tell you that power seats are slow to adjust compared to manual seats, so in my opinion, I hate power seats, they are not convenient. Also something else to break.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I must be seeing something different than you are. What I see is that of the cars at the top of the page, only the Optima has over 20 ratings--and the Altima doesn't show any ratings at all.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think power seats are only an advantage if they offer greater range of movement than manually-adjusted seats. For most cars in this class, that is the case. Power seats typically offer two height adjustments, while manual seats normally have only one. The manual dual height adjusters like I have on my Elantra and MPV are becoming rare. :(
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I think power seats are only an advantage if they offer greater range of movement than manually-adjusted seats. For most cars in this class, that is the case.

    Agreed. I also agree that it is just something else to go wrong and that is seldom the case with manual seats. Power seats do make driving more relaxing, comfortable, especially on long trips.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, only because most manually adjusted seats suck in terms of range of adjustability. I am sorry to see automakers such as Hyundai, Kia, and Mazda moving away from using manual height adjusters with two separate adjustments. I think it's odd that you can get a seat like that on a low-bucks Accent or Rio but not on an Optima or Sonata.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The 8-way adjustable power seats in the Accord are great in that they can be tilted, making them very comfortable for just about anyone. The manual seats in my old Accord were quicker to move front to back though, so now I have to stand there a while waiting for the seat to move back, then get in (wife is only 5'4" so the seat is way up after she drives it).
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    Has the highest rating of the cars listed at the top of this forum from Edmund users, with over 20 ratings being the minimum for my standards....

    first, the altima has no/zero/nil/nada reviews at all, so what were you saying? :P :confuse:

    second, your standards, as expressed by your previous posts, seem unrealistic and/or one-sided so they have little value to me. ;) :lemon:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, that is why I like the 8-way (manual) seat on my Elantra, and a simiilar design (but without adjustable lumbar) on my MPV--the front of the seat bottom moves up and down independently of the rear, in effect tilting the seat cushion. Most power seats can do that, but few manual seats can these days. I don't need the electric motors to move the seat for me as long as it has enough adjustments. But I suppose some folks would feel cheated if their mid-sized car didn't come with a power seat.

    I can see an advantage of a power seat with memory settings if multiple people often drive the same car. But few cars we're discussing here have memory seats.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I can see an advantage of a power seat with memory settings if multiple people often drive the same car. But few cars we're discussing here have memory seats.

    Memory seats would be nice, but I would actually rather have adjustable pedals. Maybe in 2018 the 10th generation Accord will have them. ;) That's when I can see myself shopping for a new car again (maybe a little before then).
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Hello? By leaving out the main point of my post, you are completely misquoting me. You didn't even indicate with an ellipsis that you had omitted one third of my post.

    The sentence that was in between the two sentences you quoted is:

    There's no reason to extrapolate (your experiences) to becoming everyone's experiences.

    We discuss anecdotal experiences here all the time. We just need to remember that they are exactly that - anecdotal and not statistically conclusive in any way.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I must be seeing something different than you are. What I see is that of the cars at the top of the page, only the Optima has over 20 ratings--and the Altima doesn't show any ratings at all.

    Really? I see 27 reviews for the Altima. The only one that doesn't have any ratings yet is the 08 Mazda6.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Our 2007 SEL AWD Fusion has an inside rear view mirror that electronically and automatically dims when it senses high beams behind the car. It's a neat feature but I actually prefer mirrors with a manual mode for that function.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    Our LeSabres have that feature but it can be turned off with a tap on the button and then turned on when you wish. Is that on your mirror?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    Our LeSabres have that feature but it can be turned off with a tap on the button and then turned on when you wish. Is that on your mirror?

    Nope. Don't see a way to disable it. No buttons.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    If you don't have the time to make the necessary adjustments or changes to your seat (and possibly mirrors,etc) then I really think you should slow down just a little. I have found that I get a better adjustment with the power seats over the manual. I would also agree it takes a few seconds for the power seats to adjust, but I don't think that time is so critical, at least for me, that I don't check my vehicle before driving off. It shouldn't be more than a few seconds, or minutes at the most. By the way, yes auto seats can/do break at times. What else is new? Wow, did I say all that? Hmmmmm.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I see ratings for the Altima are there now. When I made my original post yesterday, there was just a blank space there for the Altima. I think another post from yesterday referred to this same issue, so apparently I wasn't the only person who noticed it. But it's fixed now.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    When I made my original post yesterday, there was just a blank space there for the Altima.

    That's what my display showed too. :) Must have been an anomaly.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    I never said that I don't take the time to make the adjustments - I always do make safety #1. What I said was it takes longer to make the necessary adjustments with a power seat. I have never seen any stats that say power seats are safer, so I prefer quicker adjusting manual seats.

    I have never had a manual adjustment seat break on me, so that is a concern for ME.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    Gotta get a memory seat. The adjustment happens before you get into the car as the door is opened.

    Power seats break as often as power windows. :surprise
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Primarily, my point was safety, but also the ability to adjust more accurately to my personal preference. I have found the power seats although slower are able to better accomodate me. I haven't had any of the adjustments break on me yet, but I am not at all surprised to hear of it happening. I too would be concerned about it. Glad you are with us on the safety points.
    :)
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    A few posts ago there was a small flurry of activity concerning the range of fuel economy numbers on the EPA window sticker. Some said why a range if the bold large numbers indicate the estimated economy numbers for their particular car? Someone else was on the right track when they said it was a range of fuel economy numbers for all like vehicles in the same size class then that thought got side tracked by what defines a "class" of vehicles. The truth of the matter is: Those numbers are there for use as a comparison to those thinking of buying a truck/car/SUV within the same size range as others. They are not assigned to specific vehicles but let the shopper know that "somewhere out there" there is another vehicle (within the same size class) that gets better (worse) estimated fuel economy than the one they are currently looking at by checking that range of numbers and comparing them to the bold numbers on the specific car. It is much the same as the energy ratings on your electric water heater..or refridgerator..or dishwasher..or clothes dryer. Your specific model is shown with an arrow along a linear chart showing some are more efficient some less. For once and for all I hope this dispels the idea that that range applies to one specific vehicle.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Power seats break as often as power windows.

    How often is that? Is it any more frequent than manual windows?

    Do not have much experience with power windows on older cars...we do have a '97 windstar and have not had a problem with them. Our other cars with power windows are less than 3 years old. In shopping for older cars for a couple kids recently, I have not seen many with power window problems. I only recall one and all it needed was a new switch.

    My daughter recently got rid of a contour with non-useable manual driver window...would have cost $150 or so to fix it, IIRC. The car was 11 years old when the stub that the crank connects to broke off.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Actually...the new stickers give both a range for the particular vehicle you are looking at and a range for the class.

    http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/ratingsNewSticker.shtml
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Thanks, I learn something new almost every day.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Accord EX-L and EX-L/V6 have auto-dimming mirror standard (and accessory on other trims). Between those and manually adjusting mirror, I'm actually split. I have manual in my old Accord and auto in my TL.

    Manual responds immediately, and TL's works but take a few seconds longer (after cold starts, I guess the chemicals inside the mirror casing take a little while to "warm").

    This is similar to manual seat adjustment versus powered (although in this case, I'm the only one who drives the Accord which has power seats and rarely needs adjustments, while TL has memory seats, so it adjusts itself before I get in the car).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    In reality, people don't use "range" to shop. They look at 20/30, and compare it to 22/32. Guess which they would like. As for range, the classification is based on EPA's definition of class. So, Accord and Sonata fall outside the class which is the point of this discussion. Should we continue to discuss them in this thread? :D
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Thanks, I learn something new almost every day.

    "For once and for all" did this teach you to do some research before typing out posts that are meant to make others look foolish? :P
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Thanks for posting that "new" EPA sticker.

    I interpet it to mean that the big, bold number is the estimated average and the range is a comparision of different types of drivers for that vehicle, ranging from those who jump on the gas pedal (lower end of range) to those who accelerate (and brake) moderately (higher end of the range).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So, Accord and Sonata fall outside the class which is the point of this discussion. Should we continue to discuss them in this thread?

    That is a good question. What is a mid-sized sedan? Consider:

    * Versa is generally considered a subcompact but has mid-sized interior room.
    * Elantra and Sentra are generally considered compacts, but have mid-sized interior room which exceeds some of the cars listed for this discussion.
    * Accord and Sonata have large-car interior volume. So does Azera, actually more than either Accord or Sonata. But Accord is bigger outside than the Azera. Therefore, Accord is the mid-sized car and Azera is the large car. :surprise:

    If anyone has a "definitive" definition of what a mid-sized car is, I haven't seen it. Some compare by interior room, some by length, some by price. Perrsonally, I compare by fitness to a particular purpose. So that pits cars like the Fit, Versa and Elantra against cars like the Mazda6, Optima, and Sonata--because they all fit my space requirements and are within my target price range.

    Who knows, maybe in a few years the set of mid-sized and large cars will be much different than it is now, e.g. mid-sizers will include Civic, Corolla, Elantra, and Sentra, and large cars will include Accord, Camry, and Sonata.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    If anyone has a "definitive" definition of what a mid-sized car is, I haven't seen it.

    I agree, Backy. Maybe cubic feet interior space would make for a creditable yardstick. Just a thought.
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    Others have been misinterpreting this "range" thing for quite a while and I thought it was time to clear it up. It really wasn't my intention to make you look foolish. It's really too bad one can't even make a post here any more without sensitivity training.
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    It really doesn't matter if you believe anyone uses that "range" section to shop or not. I didn't mandate it I only attempted to explain it. But it seems I managed only to make some feel like fools. If you have comments about its use or non-use I suggest you email the EPA. Doesn't matter to me what class you believe the Accord or Sonata falls into either because I didn't classify them. See above suggestion about emailing the EPA. Finally, if you believe both fall outside the specifications of this thread then feel free to stop discussing either or both.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Since we're talking EPA ratings and we can only use their standard (EPA's definition of class). And they have three different standards.

    One applies to cars (typical sedan/coupe)
    Another to station wagons (like Versa, Fit etc)
    And finally, light trucks (SUVs, Pickups, Minivans) which actually uses GVWR for classification.

    By definition, a midsize "car" has 110-119 cu ft of cabin+trunk space. However, a midsize "wagon" has to have 130-159 cu ft of total volume.

    With 120-121 cu ft, Accord and Sonata fall out of midsize spectrum (by EPA's definition of class, and EPA's standard for fuel economy rating).
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