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I agree. EPA's standard depends on standards used by automakers. And while cabin volume is measured based on legroom, headroom and shoulder room (the three are multipled, front and back, with inch converted to ft), trunk volume is something that doesn't seem to follow a standard. Some use SAE method, others use VDA, and this little known fact creates discrepancies. Trunks perceived to be large may not really be larger. It would depend on the standard used by automakers.
PS.
SAE method uses fine grain substance/sand/water to fill up the space. The volume used is the specified volume. So this includes every nook and cranny (not necessarily usable space).
VDA (Verband der Automobilindustrie) method uses standard size wooden block and depending on how many make it, their volume determines the volume of the space. This results in a lower number but is more indicative of "useful space".
Edmunds has tried quoting both but they seem to have gotten the numbers mixed up. For example, they quoted 2008 Mercedes C350 as having 16.8 cu ft trunk under VDA (should be SAE) and 12.5 cu ft trunk under SAE (should be VDA). MB uses VDA method, as does Honda. Many European automakers will quote both. Others, one or the other.
In this case (C350), VDA to SAE discrepancy is a whopping 34% (4.3 cu ft).
All good to know. Well, at least for the crazies like us that post on these forums.
That last sentence is why I said I'd consider the Accord last if I were shopping for a full-sizer. Even though the Taurus and Avalon are priced a bit higher they offer a lot more space which is why you would want a full-sizer in the first place most likely.
I don't fault anyone for listining to KBB, how can I? Even before I was in the biz, I thought they were accutate too! What is hard is convincing potential customers that KBB is inacurate, and they can only be used a slim guide line.
Accord is classified as midsize with sunroof and as full size without sunroof.
and, don't forget, it is classified by EPA as a compact in the coupe. Which I only point out to illustrate the silliness of relying on EPA to decide what class a car is in.
Here's more: Midsize per EPA includes Nissan Versa and Sentra...with the Altima that makes three.
It looked as good as the sedan, in fact in some ways, I like it better. The hatch opening was huge which would allow putting in very large cargo very easy. The seats folded down extremely easily...from the rear bumper, there are two switches that when pulled, the spring loaded seats fall forward; from the rear doors, there are buttons by the headrest that also make the back seats fall forward. With the rear seats folded down, the floor was flat which was great for pushing boxes back without getting hung up when loading through the hatch.
Mazda did a great job making space comfortable when transporting multiple people and also making the space cavernous and easily useable when needed to haul things around. And even better, they did all this while maintaining the Mazda6's great looking exterior. They even put several tie down points which kept my lawnmower from rolling around when I took it into the shop... very smart. All this talk about EPA rated sizes was of little importance to me because it does not take into account of how space can be used The Mazda6 hatchback is a great example of how different ways of looking at how space can be better utilized can result in a much more handy product.
As far as EPA’s definition is concerned, I’m not sure of the real purpose. But if they must use a standard for whatever purpose, I think it should be based on a standard (as opposed to letting automakers use their own around cargo volume, payload, towing etc).
You can not get into the hatch/trunk are without going thru the parcel shelf.
Hatch has to be open in order to move the parcel shelf.
Latches to move rear seatsbacks up is in hatch area and not in the passenger cabin.
100 times out of 100 I have the option of greater utility than the sedan with "trunk".
Yeah, OK. And there's this bridge in Brooklyn you might be interested in....
Hatchbacks are dead in America. Wonder why?
"SUVs"... the new "station wagon".
Ignorance!
You should share your knowledge of hatchbacks being dead with-
Toyota
Nissan
Honda
Scion
Saab
Volvo
MINI
Dodge
Mazda
Pontiac
Hyundai
Mitsubishi
Audi
Saturn
Volkswagen
Smart
&
Suzuki
They did not get the memo.
Because they're not. Here's a partial listing of hatchbacks available now or that will be introduced soon. Automakers wouldn't make all these hatchback models if there were no demand for them:
Honda Fit
* Nissan Versa
Mazda3
* Mazda6
Toyota Yaris
Toyota Matrix
* Toyota Prius
* Scion xB
Scion xD
* Hyundai Elantra Touring
* Kia Spectra5
Kia Rio5
Suzuki Reno
Suzuki SX4
Audi A3
MINI Cooper
Chevy Cobalt
Dodge Caliber
Pontiac Vibe
Saturn Astra
Smart cars
Subaru Impreza
Volkswagen Rabbit
Volvo C30
(The ones with * are mid-sized per EPA stats.)
To the people who have said that they don't want to put dirty things in the hatch for fear of getting things dirty or making the inside smelly, I haven't had that problem. Nor have most of my friends and family who have SUV's to haul things around. It's not that hard to wipe off a plastic, waterproof cargo mat. And as long as I'm not hauling manure around, it's not going to smell that bad for long. Besides, I've discovered the wonderful Febreeze does wonders at freshening the inside of the car.
Some may say, "Well just buy another vehicle..." Thing is, I spent the 4 thousand bucks I saved on my Mazda6 vs a comparibly equipped Accord or Legacy on a plasma HDTV, a DSLR camera, a high backed queen bed frame, a coffee table, car mounted gps, a portable DVD player, a queen mattress, and a years worth of car insurance (all of which fit in my hatchback btw :shades: except the queen mattress which came w/ free delivery anyway). Plus I don't have a good place to park a truck, and I hate having trucks stacked outside my house (I think it looks not too good). And really, I've yet to need to borrow anyone's truck for my needs since I've had my Mazda6 hatchback since everything I've wanted has fit in it which would suggest that I don't need a truck...
I also found a Mugen short throw shifter, but I think its 6speed only. Is there a forum that discusses this type of thing?
I think that would allow the car to remain mostly OEM but a lot more fun to drive.
They are only "dead" to those who have never used them. Anyone who has owned a hatchback will almost always want to keep one. It is a shame that so many manufacturers would rather try to force their "brilliant" ideas on the customers, rather than listen to what they (customers) really want.
van
I always wonder what this sort of statement is about. The other one that I hear (and don't really get) is that a trunk is "more secure".
I have a sedan now as does my wife. But we have had a hatchback, a wagon, and a couple minivans in the past. I never recall wishing for a trunk, when we did not have one.
I bought the maxda6 sedan over the hatch, because the price was $1000 lower, there was more headroom in the back seat, it came without a wing, and we expect our old minivan to be around for quite a while.
What is it that you carry around that needs "isolating"? Honestly, I am curious about this because it seems to be a pretty common preference.
Again I agree with KD. I wouldn't want a hatchback on a midsize sedan. Maybe on something smaller like a Fit.
I think its kind of silly to say "they shouldn't make hatchbacks because I don't want one." One buys a car based on their perceived needs and the perceived value of the vehicle. Sometimes its a matter of utility, sometimes its a matter of practicality, some times its image...it doesn't matter.
People don't think midsized cars should be manuals, and thankfully for them, there are a plethora of lifeless slushboxes for them to choose from. For those that don't like hatches, there are a number of other body styles.
Until a few years from now when Toyota takes over the world and starts telling us what we want, there are enough options out there to keep most people relatively happy.
Mazda6 handles better than any CRV or other SUV that I've driven. Why buy a SUV when a midsize car handles better, obtains better mpg, and costs less.
I did not buy a midsize hatchback so I could haul lawn mowers or washers. It sure is nice when I was traveling and my wife wanted to buy a cedar chest. No problem hauling it in the 6 with the hatch closed. It would not have fit in a 6 with a trunk.
Why buy a sedan Mazda6 over a hatchback Mazda6?
I see no reason.
Too bad there is not an Accord and Altima 5 door.
The Mazda6 is a FWD midsize sedan, in case you've forgotten. It doesn't handle like a true sports car will. A hatchback does not have the cargo capacity of an SUV/Crossover either. A pretender on both counts. So you really can't have it all. I prefer to use a car for hauling people, and a truck for hauling large things. Hatchback? No thanks.
Because a hatchback doesn't isolate nasty or smelly etc. cargo from the cabin like a trunk does. Dust from bags of concrete comes to mind. Or carry-out/doggy bags left in the car for a while. Or a gas can for the lawnmower. Or anything stinky or dusty or in disarray.
Or anything __________________ (fill in the blank).
Is your dislike for hatchback subjective or objective?
Using the example of Mazda6, Is there ANYTHING that sedan does better than hatch?
Sedan does not secure or isolate cargo any better than hatch.
Sedan does not handle better than hatch.
Sedan is not quieter than hatch.
Sedan does not get better mileage than hatch.
Do a smell test, or dust test, or anything _______________ (fill in the blank) and you will find out your bag of dogs smells the same in trunk or in hatch.
No, it can't. But I can rent a truck for those rare times when I need one. The other 363-4 days a year, I prefer the handling and fuel economy of a sedan or hatchback--like the mid-sized sedans we are discussing here.
They offer a nice choice in a mid size car. (My Sonata is, of course, a sedan.)
Can I not mention why I personally don't need a hatchback? Or why it just will not suffice, in my case? Most Americans do own trucks, and don't need to haul things in their cars. Can I fit a sheet of plywood in it? Nope.
Yes it is a midsize sedan that is targeted at families who want comfort and practicality, so no it was never meant to be a true sports car. But as a midsize sedan, it handles better than the other cars in this class. As automobile.com writes, "Grip is very, very good, tenacious you might say, right up to the point where the front end pushes, telling you to lighten up. And this doesn't occur until you've reached competition-level speeds. Other mid-size sedans lose grip far sooner than the Mazda6." Even though I've owned this car close to a couple years now, I am still amazed at how well this car handles considering at how comfortable it is to ride in. I just took my grandmother to do some shopping today and never felt the ride would leave her feeling uncomfortable. In fact she commented that she found the seats very supportive and comfortable to ride in...
Having a midsize car to me is about the mix of practicality, value, and still having a vehicle that can be fun to drive. That's why I was not interested in buying a truck; it is neither practical (higher fuel costs, less comfort, harder to get around on congested roadways) nor fun to drive. If having a car that is fun to drive isn't an issue, SUV's, crossovers or even minivans really make more sense for people movers. But when it comes to midsize sedans, hatchbacks add an extra dose of practicality that your average family or individual can take advantage of which only adds to the value of a Mazda6 hatchback.
More than anything, as boring as it may sound, we need reliability and longevity in whatever we buy (which is why we replaced our old, dying 1996 Mazda Protege with the Accord). I have been very pleased with the Accord so far, and I am now very enamored with the new Accord. I'm not that impressed with the Camry. Not sure why, I just don't like the looks that much.
Here's my quandary: I don't have enough auto perspective to know what we're missing if we get another Accord. My wife doesn't want a new Accord--she wants a Volvo. She doesn't know much about cars, and doesn't know much about Volvo, but she loves the idea of us having one. Trouble is, I don't know why you buy a Volvo over an Accord. Why do you buy an S40 or C30 over an Accord? What does a Volvo give you?
What about an Altima, or a Mazda6? Or hell, what about a Subaru? I just don't know what the trade-offs are.
So the best advice is to test drive and see what you like and don't like. You can't really go wrong with any car in this class, it's all about what you like most and dislike least.
Buying a Volvo simply because it is a Volvo is a bad reason for purchase.
I think you should first find out what particular type of car you want. Do you want a mid-size family sedan? Do you want a compact? Do you want something that impractical but fun? How much do you want to spend?
The Volvo C30 is designed for people who want performance with some practicality. It has a great drive, but it's not spectacular. It's an overall great car. I loved its unique looks the minute I saw it. But I'd honestly rather have a Volkswagen GTI over it. It's just as practical but it's more fun to drive. (This is all my personal opinion of course).
I think before you jump to other automakers. Find the type of car you want. Don't badge shop.
But a good suggestion before you make the big purchase is test drive all its competitors. If you're looking for an Accord-sized car. Test drive the Sonata, Mazda6, Aura, Camry, Altima etc.
Although the Accord has become a bit more Camry like in it's ride, it is a very nice car. I'm always a little wary of buying a brand new model though since all the wrinkles may not have been ironed out yet so if you can wait at least a few months, that would be best (you'll also be able to get a much better deal on an Accord as I've heard the dealers aren't willing to negotiate too much on them right now). If you can get over the kind of strange looking exterior, the Accord would make a great choice if you're looking for something that is less fun but refined and don't mind how common they are.
One thing's for sure though, if you try to impose your choice on her and something goes wrong... you'll never hear the end of it. So try to make this a learning experience for both of you and let knowledge guide your decisions.
That's not what the post read. The sentence was: "My wife doesn't want an Accord, she wants a Volvo". The clearly doesn't suggest she's not enamored with an Accord but more enamored with the Volvo.
"One thing's for sure though, if you try to impose your choice on her and something goes wrong... you'll never hear the end of it."
What is even worse is to let a decision be made without thorough follow up. If the wife makes the decision and it turns out to be wrong, it's a costly mistake. IMO, the best way to do it, is to make a joint decision, which probably what it will turn out to be anyway.
Although, the flip side is, there probably is no wrong decision, Accord, Altima, Volvo...etc. They all have their strenghts as well as their weaknesses.
A Volvo is not a bad car, heck they sell enough of them. I wouldn't get one...it's not quite my style, but there are a lot of them on the road and they have reputation the Duracell bunny would envy in terms of longevity.
Has your wife seen and driven the new Accord, to know why she doesn't like it? If not, encourage her to do so, with an open mind. It's an excellent car and probably just as safe as a Volvo--if that is why she likes Volvos. And it's likely to be more reliable. It also has more of a European look to it than the 2007 Accord--if that is what she is basing her opinion on.
If she is not familiar with the other cars you mentioned, e.g. Altima, Mazda6, and Subaru (Legacy?), maybe you could ask her to take a Saturday with you and drive some cars. It's fun, and will open her eyes to other alternatives. The Mazda6 for example could be considered a big cousin of the S40, since the S40 is based on the Mazda3 platform. The Mazda6 is available in a sleek hatch, if she likes hatches ala C30. She might really like the new Altima coupe--very sporty looking, yet economical with the I4. The Accord coupe is pretty sporty looking, also. And if she's into safety, she might like the Subaru with its AWD.
There's several other good choices in this class. You might sound her out as to how she would feel being seen driving a Korean car. If she is against that idea, don't waste your time looking at the Optima and Sonata, but if she's open to it take those for a drive; they represent excellent value in this class. Some people really like the styling of the Fusion; it's based on the Mazda6 platform. If she's open to driving a domestic car like the Fusion, you could check out its twin the Milan and also the Aura, which is getting many positive reviews. The Passat is also well-regarded, if pricey, but will probably not be as reliable as others in the class such as the Accord. But it too offers excellent safety, ala Volvo.
In the end, get something your wife really wants to drive. I made the mistake once of getting a car that was a very practical and logical decision, but after a couple of years it was clear my wife really missed having a minivan. So now she has one, albeit a smaller one than she had before, and she loves it.
- We haven't actually decided who would drive this car. She's had the Accord now while I've driven the little Sentra (I have the shorter and easier commute), so I sort of want the new car, but we'll see. It will ultimately be a joint decision.
- She doesn't dislike the new Accord, it's just that it's an Accord and she wants something "different". I've told her how different the new one is, but it still says "Accord" so she still feels the same.
- She's not set on Volvos, she just really wants a "luxury nameplate. Given our other financial obligations right now, and the very high quality of non-luxury cars like Hondas and Toyotas, I don't see the point.
- Actually, that distinction was part of what was driving my original question--what does a low-end luxury car give you that wouldn't be trumped by a loaded high-end non-luxury car? Why buy a low-end Acura TSX when they could get a somewhat loaded Accord for the same money? I'm sure there's a reason, I just don't know what it is.
-We already test drove the Camry and the Sonata. We liked the Accord much more than either. I'm not a big fan of domestics so don't see us going toward an Aura or a Fusion. My wife doesn't like coupes or hatchbacks. It's strictly a sedan for her, unless we do a crossover.
-The crossover is definitely an idea and a possibility, I just wrestle with the extra cost. We don't have kids yet, and all we really need is a car. But we might consider one of the less expensive crossovers.
Anyway, thanks again for the input. We've just got some research and test driving to do. I think it will be fun.
Aaargh bhmr59 beat me to the Azera recommendation lol
Well it really depends on what you want. If you're looking at a BMW 3 series for an example, it offers a segment leading driving experience. It's an blast to drive!
However, if you prefer to be more pampered there's Lexus and even Audi.
You really have to experience these cars in order to see the difference. Sometimes the difference is little, sometimes it's big. Like Backy stated, there are certified pre-owned alternatives you can consider. However do consider that a lot of these luxury cars hold their value well.
A Hyundai Azera is a great car. It's very luxurious, and feels almost Lexus-like. But if its a luxury nameplate you want I'm not sure it fits into your criteria. But I strongly suggest Hyundai. I bought the 07 Santa Fe not long ago (it's going to replace my Accord eventually as the family car). It has been flawless so far.
I think we're getting a little off topic here. I haven't been on this forum in forever. I remember the mods don't like us getting too off topic :P