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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    What exactly is your point? That Camry is the biggest selling car in the US? That a soft boulevard ride sells better than good handling qualities in the US? I think we already knew both those things. :P
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    One reason the Mazda6 doesn't sell well is that it is simply too tight for the average US autobuyer,

    and thankfully, they support the market that is looking for that type of vehicle.

    Nissan has done the best job attacking the other end of the market as also evidenced by sales numbers, ever since inventing the term '4 door sports sedan'.

    Until they lost some competitiveness in their pricing and made it all but impossible to get a manual transmission.

    So diss the 'soft' characteristics of a Camry LE or XLE if you will - Toyota seems to know something about buyers of cars in this class that we don't. A soft boulevard ride sells better (at least in this country) than perceived (or even real) handling qualities. It simply matters more to the guys who count, the autobuyers.

    While I admit I am not a mainstream buyer, I did just buy one of the sedans in this class and it wasn't the "boulevard ride" vehicle.

    Honestly, I really don't care what "the public" wants, I care about what I want and a pillow soft boulevard ride or excessive body roll or a rubber band transmission aren't it.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Also, the Camry has an average buyer of 55 years old. I think that age group also prefers a "soft boulevard" ride to a tighter, sportier ride.

    The 30 yr old Mazda6 buyer seems to want the sportier, tighter ride.

    I do not see the Camry getting knocked off it's high horse anytime soon. If it is, it will be by the 2008 Accord IMO.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    there is definitely a relationship between a 'tightened' 'go-kart' type suspension and the perception by the autobuyer that this in itself is indicative of 'good' handling, which may or may not be true. One reason the Mazda6 doesn't sell well is that it is simply too tight for the average US autobuyer, the ride/handling compromise that Honda has generally done a good job finding, and that Toyota has usually been on the 'soft' side of. The Camry easily outsells the other cars in this group because this is what American drivers have shown to prefer - with their pocketbooks. Nissan has done the best job attacking the other end of the market as also evidenced by sales numbers, ever since inventing the term '4 door sports sedan'.

    For handling like a go-kart, you'd need to go to another class of car altogether... nothing in this segment is even close to that. Remember these are midsize sedans not sports cars. Some are sportier than others for certain, but all cars in this segment need to find that balance between comfort and handling.

    As to the difference between Mazda and other makes, I found on my test drives that the Mazda6 and Altima (previous generation) were very similar in how smooth they drove with the Altima less able to handle big bumps without feeling as though the suspension ran out of travel. Going into corners, though, the mazda6 felt much more composed with better steering feel giving me a lot more confidence. Really, in terms of ride comfort, I thought the Altima, Accord (both previous generations) and Mazda6 were on par with each other. Some people have said they thought the Accord was a bit on the harsh side, but I think that exagerates the difference between the Accord and say the previous generation Camry way too much. Having road feel does not always mean harsh. Take a look at BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Infinity, Acura, Mazda, even Cadilac sales and I think you'll see that there are many buyers in the US that value a "connected" driving experience over vague feel and a valium like driving experience.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Not to mention one has to pay an extra $1200, over the Camry LE price, to get the SE.

    As the Captain has pointed out, Camry's core buyers are those who want a soft, comfortable boulevard cruiser that'll probably never corner faster than 20 mph. The Camry LE and XLE did all those to the perfection and since that group of buyers seem to be the majority thus Camry's sales title.

    However, for those who want a little bit more fun but still a Camry (maybe it's due to the look, powertrain, quality perception or whatever) they have an alternative in the Camry SE. I wouldn't knock on Camry for not offering stiffer suspension on all models since they have a core buyer group to think of. As matter of fact I would give credit to Toyota by offering the SE version so people on both side of the fence can be pleased.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    I do not see the Camry getting knocked off it's high horse anytime soon.

    The number of disgruntled Toyota owners is rising quickly thanks to the engine sludge and transmission problems in the Camry and the myriad of recent Toyota Tundra problems. Since most people buy Toyotas based on the perception that they are bulletproof I think those problems will have the biggest potential affect on future Toyota sales in general and specifically for the Camry (and Tundra).
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Yup, that'll be a big problem if Toyota decided to treat it like the way GM did back in the 80s and 90s. Toyota will turn into GM very quickly if that happens. However, I don't think Toyota will become GM ever so I am sure the quality issues should be resolved fairly quickly.

    Toyota is going through growing pain and perception takes time to crumble.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I wouldn't knock on Camry for not offering stiffer suspension on all models...

    I wasn't...I only made the point that those who want better handling can get it in several other cars, without having to pay extra.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Let us take JD Powers word on overall dependability, in that it represents a typical buyer and a real scenario. This is how some of the midsize sedans stacked up:
    Honda Accord: 4/5
    Nissan Altima: 3/5
    Toyota Camry: 3/5
    Ford Fusion: 3/5
    Hyundai Sonata: 3/5
    Saturn Aura: 2/5
    Mazda6: 2/5
    VW Passat: 2/5

    The only car that is said to be better than Camry is the Accord. But, Accord isn’t something that every Toyota buyer will find appealing. It rides firm and doesn’t isolate folks as much as a typical Toyota buyer would fall for. They are certainly not going for Mazda6 or Passat or Aura for quality reasons.

    That said, quality issues and overall perception of the car itself are big deal to companies like Honda and Toyota. If Camry is not as good as it has traditionally been (these cars, BTW, have never been flawless, quality issues come and go, consumers stay), the bet should be on Toyota taking it seriously. These companies thrive on reputation and for good reason.

    Just look at what Honda did to Civic with the redesign. 2001-2005 Civic was immensely successful in terms of sales, perhaps the best years in Civic’s sales history. But, Honda knew the car needed more than just sales. 2006 Civic hasn’t really thrashed sales of the old (it has exceeded but not so much to make a big deal out of it), but the perception around the car has changed immensely, compared to previous generation.

    OTOH, look at Ford’s take on Focus. A few days ago I spotted the latest model, but it took me a few minutes to figure out what it was. It gave me an impression of a car that may be sold in Mexico, but not here (I see quite a few cars driven from Mexico here in Dallas area, that aren’t sold here). It is another lost opportunity. It doesn’t stand out. It feels like a car that Ford (again) designed to be a rental queen. What is different about it from very first years of Focus which I thought was going to give Civic and Corolla a run for their money.

    Also worth noting is that a typical buyer is going to care less about issues that arise as a result of model change or anything that comes during the warranty period (first 3-5 years). It becomes an issue after the honeymoon is over.

    For example, based on the design, the approach and sales projections, for the new Accord, Honda seems to be targeting 1998-2002 Accord buyer base first. These are more likely to buy a new Accord than the folks that have 2003-2007. Now, these folks would return (I would) based on their experience with their Accords over last 4-5 years when their car was completely out of warranty, and how it held up to their abuse (or lack of).

    Thinking “now” may work “now”, but to be successful in the longer term, there needs to be a plan and proper execution that sticks to a formula.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    (The best) Midsize Car JD Power 2007 Vehicle Dependability Study

    drum roll please

    Buick Century

    quote robertsmx-
    The only car that is said to be better than Camry is the Accord
    -end

    Even better than the Accord as rated by JD Power is the Buick Century.
    What is Buicks midsize car now? The LaCrosse?
    Without looking this up I could not think what the midsize currently sold by Buick was. :surprise:
    GM desperately needs to provide new product to Buick.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    You left out a few:

    Buick Century 5/5
    Buick Regal 5/5
    Mercury Sable 5/5

    Fusion is missing from this list and Camry gets 4 dots, not 3:

    http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/dependability/midsize-car

    As for the Focus (when did that become midsize :confuse: ) it was the top rated car by CR when it first came out (Sept 2000 issue). However, this apparently did not translate into buyers being willing to pay a premium price for one (as they do for the civic). I think it is a good buy, even with it's aging platform. Price-wise the Focus is more comparable to the Fit, just as cars like the Fusion are generally more comparable to the Civic in terms of actual selling prices.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Those are 2004 models. The Fusion and Milan won't appear on that survey for 2 more years (2009 survey covering 2006 models).
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    All I said was that Toyota's recent quality problems and especially the declaration from CR that it won't automatically recommend new models and the fact that it dropped the V6 Camry and 4x4 Tundra from it's recommended list, combined with plenty of dissatisfied owners can potentially knock Camry from the top spot.

    Toyota has lost it's bulletproof image. We'll have to wait and see what affect it has on sales down the road.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I think people, from my interaction with them everyday at work, that many Honda/Toyota/Nissan/Mazda buyers look at CR for reliability and quality before they look at JD Powers. From talking to a lot of people in the auto industry, connected to many different mfgr's, JD Powers is not really regarded as a great source for anything. They are more like a Car and Driver or Motor Trend.

    What does "overall quality" really mean when CR or JD Powers places a "quality" label on vehicles they asses. Does it encompass the grade of materials? How they are put together? How long the car is going to last? Maybe a bit of all? Hmmm... I have personally noticed that the interior quality of materials in a Toyota Camry are low rent. Now, they are put together well. So, how does that score? Overall reliability seems to have seriously slipped as well. How does the Camry receive a 3 out of 5?

    The previous generation Honda Accord also utilized numerous plastic components, as does most every mfgr, but, I noticed more plastic then some other brands (Hyundai/Mazda). Once again, these materials are put together very well. So, once again, is the build quality regarded higher then the actual materials used? The ride/comfort of the Honda Accord was nothing special either. Reliability has been top knotch for the most part, apart from the V6 tranny's.

    I have the most experience in a Mazda6 (2005 Mazda6 i 5-Door w/leather/Bose/moon roof). There are once again, plastics used in the interior, but, not as much as the current Camry or 2003-2007 Accord. The build quality is not as tight, but, so so close to Accord/Camry. The ride has not changed since day 1, and I have had no issues to date (4 cyl Mazda6's have been rated well in reliability). What makes the Mazda6 score only 2 out of 5? Is is the sup par V6? How does the same V6 get rated high in the Fusion? It's the same engine! I have no idea. Dose the fact that many Mazda6's are fleet account for a low score. Fleet cars usually get the snot beat out of them. Once again, I have visited JD Powers web site and really do not understand their rating philosophy. I guess this is why I find them useless.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Funny how the Century, Regal, and Sable got left out of the earlier listing by robertsmx: GM and Ford.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    Remember that their information comes from random surveys of owners over three years.

    JDPowers:

    Overall Dependability: Taken from the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems that have caused a complete breakdown or malfunction of any component, feature, or item (i.e., components that stop working or trim pieces that break or come loose).


    Powertrain Dependability:
    Taken from the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems with the engine or transmission as well as problems that affect the driving experience (i.e., vehicle/brakes pull, abnormal noises or vibrations) only.

    Body & Interior Dependability: Taken from the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems with wind noise, water leaks, poor interior fit/finish, paint imperfection, and squeaks/rattles.

    Features & Accessories Dependability: Taken from the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS), which looks at owner-reported problems in the first 3 years of new-vehicle ownership, this score is based on problems with the seats, windshield wipers, navigation system, rear-seat entertainment system, heater, air conditioner, stereo system, sunroof and trip computer.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I stand corrected. Some of the links to dependability won't respond so I clicked on "rankings by segment" and selected midsize, but didn't realize it was talking IQS.

    Speaking of Buick, I think it benefits from the segment it caters to. I would also be interested to see average age of the buyers taking the surveys as well as miles driven to draw proper conclusions from any of these surveys. I have known folks who drive 5K miles or less/year. I drive that distance in two months.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Yeah, while "defending" a car that I can't see myself buying.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I mentioned Focus after Civic, and neither was to talk about size but to discuss approach automakers take. Obviously, you missed the point completely.

    But in the process, you did mention something that relates to the topic. I have seen several people complain about Camry being favored by CR as they recommend even the new model by default. That doesn’t seem to be an issue with Focus being recommended when it first came out. So I say, let recommendation be what it is. CR has as much a crystal ball as did Ms Cleo.

    We could discuss pricing elsewhere, but since you brought it up, Focus is really priced above Fit and comparable to Civic. Equip base with ABS, automatic transmission, and you’re into $16.5K mark (Fit is about $2K cheaper). But market isn’t willing to pay the price for it, and incentives/rebates are almost warranted. Could have been better, if Ford actually took care of its business properly when it was launched (which was quite a splash, actually). If they didn’t learn from it, Fusion’s future won’t be any different. As of now, it does look promising.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    While I quoted JD power and do look at CR ratings, I only take them for what they are. New buyers may not buy into Camry's reputation based on that, but for repeat buyers (or buyers with history based on experiencence from friends and family) those numbers don't tell the story.

    I started with a used 1982 Supra-Celica. It held up well, virtually guaranteeing my next purchased to be a Toyota. I bought used 1988 Corolla GT-S coupe. It held up extremely well, sold at 138K miles and was still running around 168K miles with the guy who bought from me. And it was not only reliable, it was also a fun car to drive and a lot more stable at speed than the sedan.

    This led to yet another used Toyota, 1992 Camry which I had until I decided to go Honda. Major reason for my switch was my driving experience, not ownership experience. The ownership experience led to me picking a Honda over VW (Passat), however. From one brand with reputation to another. Since then, I've been a Honda guy, not just based on reputation of the company but based in experience.

    This is how companies begin to garner respect, build a customer base, and repeat buyers. My cars over last ten years:
    1998 Accord (current, 183K miles)
    1999 Prelude (sold for Civic)
    2000 Civic (replaced by TL)
    2006 TL (current, 30K miles)

    Under consideration (to replace the Accord if there is a need):
    2008/2009 Accord
    2009 Fit

    It doesn't matter what JD Power or CR put on the survey. Those are simply fun numbers for me to look at. I don't put greater value on them over my ownership experience.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    It doesn't matter what JD Power or CR put on the survey. Those are simply fun numbers for me to look at. I don't put greater value on them over my ownership experience

    That is the way I think of it too.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    JD Power ratings are such a weak way to assess a car.

    What is a better source of reliability information than JD Power?

    Consumer Reports only survey's subscribers and is certainly not preferred to JD Power.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "What is a better source of reliability information than JD Power?"

    While I'm sure the JD Power bible is the final purchase arbiter of a car decision for posters in the glass house, I've actually to meet anybody in real life who consulted with JD Power before buying a vehicle. What people do in this glass house vs the real world are two different things.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Consumer Reports only survey's subscribers and is certainly not preferred to JD Power.

    I have found long term reliability ratings from CR to be more accurate. JD only goes three years out, and are a random surveys. I have never received a JD survey.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    CR or JD Powers' usability goes only as far as TV commercials, and hold as much value as NHTSA's safety star rating (which don't hold much meaning until one actually digs deeper into the claims).

    For that matter, if you look at dependability survey, Mercury Sable has 5/5 overall dependability rating but its virtual twin has only 3/5. Why does this happen? You can see something similar in compact car segment too. Cavalier and Sunfire were virtual twins, yet the Chevrolet is deemed more dependable.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    My problem with vague symbols like stars or colored circles is that it overstates what are really pretty close values. When JD Power released long term reliability data, the # of probs over a multi year period for the best rated vehicles was around 3 and around 4 for the below average vehicles. Consumer reports showed similar data as well... the difference between their top rating and below average rating was often just a few percent over a five year period. I would suggest that it's in consumer reports and JD powers interest to make the differences seem more than what they really are so that the data is more dramatic which would compell more people to look at their conclusions thus buying more of their product/subscriptions.
  • ronin5ronin5 Member Posts: 14
    They just admitted that they have been letting Camry skate based on past experience. They think now that the Camry no longer rates an automatic pass.

    Which I interpret to mean that up until recently they have been giving high ratings to a model that they now admit does not deserve it. Which means they have misled their leadership for the past few years.

    What they need to do now is fess up and say which other models they are predicting high, or for that matter, low, ratings based on past glory, but have no empirical evidence either way.

    It's nice that CR admits its error in misleading its subscribers; it's funnier that people still accept CR as gospel.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I've been price shopping the new Taurus for my grandmother... Out the door prices come to $22k. I dare ya to find that on a V6 Accord or Camry right now!

    Just something to keep in mind; there are other value leaders besides Hyundai.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I saw a new Lucerne advertised for $21k the other day, and Azera SEs can be had for that also. Fusion V6s start at around $20k (discounted), and of course there's the Optima. Several good choices for value in this class if the Camcordma is too pricey and something else meets your needs.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,132
    >It's nice that CR admits its error in misleading its subscribers;

    CR should have admitted its bias much earlier.

    >it's funnier that people still accept CR as gospel

    And they did just that and some always will. There's even a topic here about CR.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I agree. There may (or may not) be big difference between a 4-star versus 5, or above average versus good. In fact, in some cases (as I pointed out about NHTSA's star rating system, a few days ago) that it could be the opposite. But I would pay closer attention to difference between 3-star and 5-star (or colors, if they apply).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    One could choose to ignore predicted reliability and simply look for reliability from the past. In case of Camry, the prediction is based on the car's and the company's past. I don't see an issue with it. Predicted reliability will always be... prediction, not a guarantee. See what happened with Focus. It had a high predicted reliability when it first arrived, right? So, it is not something that Toyota gets.

    One could argue that predicted reliability should be simply taken off the print. What is the point anyway? In fact, why even bother with reliability of "new" cars? It only makes sense in used car market, because for new cars, even based on same design, prediction is just that, looking at the crystal ball with the past behind it. It doesn't guarantee replication or improvement.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    That's the key; her needs are obviously very different than mine (I enjoy the driving process, being 20 I don't go in search of the quietest smoothest ride). I also don't have a predetermined good repoire with Ford vehicles like she does (she likes Fords as a whole).

    My grandmother drove Ford most of her life (starting with a Fairlane, had a Torino, Granada, and an '84 LTD (the Fairmont-based one). After that, she bought a '91 Civic which she loved, and replaced it with a '96 Accord (now my car), and followed that one up with her current 2002 Accord). Now that Honda is getting expensive yet cheaper with the Accord, I'm trying to guide her back to Ford. Her last two Accords have been LX 4-cyl Auto models. She doesn't care for frills; she won't learn how to use them! An LX 4-cylinder Accord is now the same price as a Taurus, which supposedly a better riding car, with 80+ more power, and a much smoother ride. She's not a driving enthusiast (she's 72) so the whole Honda "handling" premise doesn't matter to her.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    She's not a driving enthusiast (she's 72) so the whole Honda "handling" premise doesn't matter to her.

    She might find a smaller car easier to maneuver and/or see. My grandma went from the biggest Pontiac I'd ever seen to a Camry in the 80s and my other grandma went from a huge Buick to an early 90s Century. Even my grandpa went from a RWD Impala to a FWD Bonneville.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I agree with that too. The only thing is it is easier for her to get in a car that's higher up. My aunt (who has an Odyssey and is pining for a CR-V - she thinks they are "the cutest thing!")wants her to test a CR-V. That may be a good idea.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I've been price shopping the new Taurus for my grandmother

    Is she looking for FWD or AWD?

    I will say, you do get a lot of car for the money in the Taurus/Sable
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "She's not a driving enthusiast (she's 72) so the whole Honda "handling" premise doesn't matter to her."

    Riding around in retirement communities one can't help but notice the number of Accords and Camrys. One has to wonder why?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, if its anything like my grandmother's case, she keeps buying what she's always had because they've been nothing but good. She told me "they've never given me a reason to go anywhere else" talking about buying cars at the Honda dealer that is literally walking distance from her house. Her first Honda was bought when she was in her early 50s.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Is she looking for FWD or AWD?

    FWD. We haven't had measurable snow in Birmingham in 7 years (although that IS a record!). All her cars for the last 20+ years have been FWD
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    I guess tonight could be our Crew World Series party since last night's game makes me think there's a slim chance the Series might not last until next Thursday! :P

    The Subaru Crew Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Accord History

    1985 Honda Accord
    Wheelbase 102.36 in
    Length: 178.50 in
    Width: 66.92 in
    Curb Wt. 2200 lbs

    2008 Honda Accord
    Wheelbase 110.2 in
    Length: 194.1 in
    Width: 72.7 in
    Curb Wt. 3300 lbs

    2008 Honda Civic
    Wheelbase (in.) 106.3
    Length (in.) 176.7
    Width (in.) 69
    Curb Wt. 2700 lbs

    Wow! The Civic is now nearly the same size as the Accord used to be.

    How large is large enough for a midsize car? Is the current Accord and similar size cars too small, too large, or just right?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    See what happened with Focus. It had a high predicted reliability when it first arrived, right?

    Predicted by whom? Not by CR. They would never have predicted high reliability for a brand-new model from Ford, back when the Focus debuted, or now. But with Ford improving, maybe they'll get the "magic pass" sometime in the future.

    A prediction is only good if things remain fairly constant. With Toyota's reliability falling off (several indications of this besides the trouble with the V6 Camry), and given they have been a leader in reliability for many years, it's just not a good idea for anyone to predict high reliability for a brand-new design from any car maker these days.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I agree with that too. The only thing is it is easier for her to get in a car that's higher up. My aunt (who has an Odyssey and is pining for a CR-V - she thinks they are "the cutest thing!")wants her to test a CR-V. That may be a good idea.

    The CR-V might be a lot higher up. I definitely remember having to step up to get in. You might also look at the Suabrus. The Outback models have slightly different suspensions and silly tires and wheels that make them a little higher to help egress. I think my mom is leaning towards one of those.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Predicted by whom? Not by CR. They would never have predicted high reliability for a brand-new model from Ford, back when the Focus debuted, or now.

    Go back a few posts and you will see someone posting Focus being rated high initially by CR (in 2000). Those aren't my words, and since I don't have subscription to CR, can't validate that either.

    That said, do other cars get predicted reliability ratings from CR? Or, was it limited only to Camry?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    1985 Accord was a subcompact to barely a compact, not a midsize. Do you think that size would sell today in a family sedan? How about the engine?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Focus as a car was and still is rated highly by CR. But not in terms of reliability. Predicted reliability is a separate assessment from how they rank a car vs. others.

    You can find CR at your local library and see how it rates cars and reports on predicted reliability (no, it's not just on the Camry)--no subscription to CR is needed.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    1985 Accord was a subcompact to barely a compact, not a midsize. Do you think that size would sell today in a family sedan?

    Using the Civic which is now 1985 Accord sized as an example then yes they sell, and yes they are used by families.

    What size do you believe is required for "family" use? For the purpose of this discussion, using a family of four as a standard.

    Midsize car such as Malibu or Camry? Are they too small for four North Americans? :surprise:
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    If Accord were to sell in Civic volume, Civic would be selling in Fit volume, and Honda would be owned by another company. Thats the reality. Here is more.

    Fit is somewhere between the first Accord (about half foot shorter) and first generation Civic (about half foot longer). Civic is about the size of an Accord from 25 years ago. If you think these two sizes are sufficient for American family sedan duties, then you need to look around. Accord outsells Civic and Fit combined.

    Is there an automaker that you know would gladly dismiss one of its midsizers and make a living by selling subcompact to compact cars for family vehicle duties?

    IMO, a car with good room for four, and decent cargo room makes for a good family car. It doesn't need to be as big as Taurus. And it cannot be Civic-sized either. Cars like Mazda6 are borderline acceptable. Take an average, and you just might find solid offerings from all automakers.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Is there any other car that has (or has had) a high "predicted" reliability from CR besides the Camry?
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