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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    As a family sedan, Accord is okay at where it is - borderline between midsize and large sedan. However, it shouldn't keep growing with every iteration IMO, where is it going to stop? Civic can go up to the lower end of the midsize category since Honda now has Fit to take care of the small car market.

    The only way to stop this trend is for us American to stop getting fatter and fatter. :surprise:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Is there any other car that has (or has had) a high "predicted" reliability from CR besides the Camry?

    It sounded like all new Toyota models were given the benefit of the doubt in the past, not just the Camry. I would assume Honda gets the same treatment but can't confirm that.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Looking at the Odyssey minivan's reliability (typically reported as average), I'd assume otherwise. Just my opinion; I could be wrong.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I would assume Honda gets the same treatment but can't confirm that.

    Honda does for the most part. They recommend almost every new vehicle they put out. When the RDX came out, it was recommended ASAP.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Looking at the Odyssey minivan's reliability (typically reported as average

    Maybe because the 2nd gen Odyssey's were totally inconsistent, and had the faulty transmission bug. I don't know if the 3rd gen's have been much better. However, an Odyssey is still better then most van's.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Is there any other car that has (or has had) a high "predicted" reliability from CR besides the Camry?

    Yes, several. The easiest way to see this is look at the April "auto issue" (at your local library), and there's a bunch of tables that show both CR's reliability "verdicts" of the car as a used car, and their predicted reliability for the car as new. Looks like CR is going to publish an update in their next issue, based on results of their latest survey. This is the survey in which the Camry V6 took a hit. I posted the best and worst family cars from that update a few days ago.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    What I would like to know is which (new) cars get high marks on predicted reliability that is not a Toyota (or Honda, if you prefer). Aren't there any? Haven't there been any?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    As I just said, I posted this info a few days ago (6464). For your convenience, here's a copy/paste from that post:

    Most Reliable-listed in ratings order, starting with the best score
    Toyota Prius
    Honda Accord (2007)
    Hyundai Sonata (4-cyl.)
    Toyota Camry Hybrid*
    Ford Fusion
    Mercury Milan

    (* means rating is based on one model year)

    These are the family cars (CR's classification) that are the highest scoring in reliability, based on CR's latest survey. All but the Accord are the same designs for 2008 as for 2007. I think CR gave the Accord a high predicted reliability rating for 2008, even though it's a new design. We'll see if that comes back to haunt them, like when they said the 2007 Camry would have high reliability, and the V6 models didn't measure up to that prediction based on the survey results.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    You know Hyundai targets value with Sonata. I think it is getting redesigned next year(?). If I were to ask you, would you say (predict) that it will continue to target value? What criteria did you use?

    Next question. When Hyundai launches Genesis, do you expect it to target value?

    Back to reliability. Assume that 2008 Sonata does well in reliability score. If CR puts predicted reliability on 2009 Sonata as recommended, it will not be something unexpected to me. But, I must ask, would you then say that they are showing bias for Hyundai by putting recommendation on a new model?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think Hyundai will increasingly highlight the quality and reliability of its vehicles such as the Sonata (note it's now the #2 mid-sized sedan per CR in reliability, behind only the previous-gen Accord), while it continues to emphasize value compared to brands like Toyota and Honda. You asked for my prediction, my opinion, and that's it. Why? Simply, why not use all the weapons at your disposal in a war, instead of just one?

    Genesis isn't a mid-sized family car.

    Since the 2009 Sonata will be a refresh (e.g. new front fascia, new dash, tweaks of existing engines) and not a redesign, I can see that a reliability recommendation for 2008 would carry over to 2009. But when the Sonata is redesigned (2011 or 2012 MY?), then I would hope CR would wait to see how the new design holds up--just as it should have waited on the redesigned Camry, and the redesigned Accord.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Since you conveniently avoided answering my questions directly, I should be able to extrapolate your responses based on your post. Let us see:
    The question was: “If I were to ask you, would you say (predict) that it will continue to target value?”
    The answer seems to be a big yes. The long first sentence in the first paragraph highlights this. The short ones that follow are all about utter avoidance so I will leave it at that, for now.

    The complementary question was: “What criteria did you use?”
    Your response highlights an opinion, based on the past. So, you predicted something in the future based on a trend from the past. Did I get that right?

    The next question: “When Hyundai launches Genesis, do you expect it to target value?”
    Your response to this is another example of avoidance. You didn’t have an issue talking about Focus in an earlier post in this thread, why has size become an issue now? I’m taking another big “yes” for your answer, which will be along the lines of your response to the first, again, based on the past. If you disagree, let me know.

    The question: “If CR puts predicted reliability on 2009 Sonata as recommended, it will not be something unexpected to me. But, I must ask, would you then say that they are showing bias for Hyundai by putting recommendation on a new model?”

    You didn’t want anything to do with the word bias here and understandably so. But you do seem to understand the point of credits getting transferred from an older Sonata. Then you go on to say about “waiting more”, which says nothing about “projected” reliability now does it? So, to answer the question you should have just said that you don’t want to see CR recommending Sonata based on recent history. Why didn’t you?

    If you don’t believe in projections, don’t. And you might as well refrain from making a point on it. But you did. So, how is this different from what CR is doing? Or, are we jumping on CR’s throat for it being “fairly biased”? ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you're just going to insult me when I make an honest attempt to respond to your questions, don't bother to ask me any more questions. Especially questions that are based on faulty information or assumptions.

    If you want to bash someone because they decided not to follow your lead to go off-topic, that's your problem.

    Let us know when you want to return to discussing mid-sized sedans rather than "let's have some fun with backy."
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Insulting? Since you refuse to respond to questions directly, but still want to argue, I had to get around to get your response. So, may I ask you what was your point around this...

    "You asked for my prediction, my opinion, and that's it. Why? Simply, why not use all the weapons at your disposal in a war, instead of just one?"

    And then you complain about getting insulted (somehow). :confuse:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think you may have misread my response. I was trying to explain why I responded to the question as I did, i.e. that I saw Hyundai emphasizing quality and reliability in the future in addition to value, because they should use all the weapons they have available to them. I don't know why you would be insulted by that response.

    I am insulted, however, that you would assume that I am trying to evade your questions and would be presumptous enough to write your own answers when you didn't like mine. So don't bother to ask me any more questions--just go ahead ahd answer them yourself; you're very good at that.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Different day...

    Another case when Hyundai (Sonata) does something well, and deservedly so, wait, let's try to see if CR is showing bias in the brand (car) two years from now...
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    2009:

    MMC and stability control finally on the Ford Fusion

    Diesel Honda Accord

    6-speeds automatic replaces 4-speeds on all 4-cylinder Malibus (not just LTZ)

    MMC Hyundai Sonata with new interior (possible nav and bluetooth)

    MMC Toyota Camry (new 4 cylinder engine and maybe tranny fix for V6)

    Restyled Mazda6

    Lots of stuff to wait for.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I wonder if Toyota would refresh the Camry after only two model years. They typically wait at least 3 for a mid-gen refresh.

    Could 2009 be the year there's another car at the top of the mid-sized heap, by press consensus? Maybe the new Mazda6?
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    Not to mention one has to pay an extra $1200, over the Camry LE price, to get the SE. Many other cars come with good handling standard on all trim levels.

    Ahhh, but didn't you see the Lexus Commercial many years ago where they were touting the ability to drive over the wood planks along a railroad track without even feeling it? To some, the ride matters more than handling, and for those people, they seem to wish to be able to run over human bodies without noticing it one bit. Maybe they could drink a scalding hot cup of coffee and not worry about spilling any (without a lid) even while running over a curb? Isolation used to be advertised more.

    Maybe they like those cars like the Camry so much, so that when they do run someone over, since you can't even feel it or notice it, it can't very well be a hit and run can it? :P
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    It's nice that CR admits its error in misleading its subscribers; it's funnier that people still accept CR as gospel.

    I think CR and Toyota will get a pass from readers and consumers since they have been dead-on bullseye bulletproof reliable and spotless for over 15 years with the Camry. CR's predictions seem to be far more accurate than JD Power's advertised "data."
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    the CR and JD Powers conversation in the Comments: Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings discussion.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Could 2009 be the year there's another car at the top of the mid-sized heap, by press consensus? Maybe the new Mazda6?

    Considering they won over 100 different awards with the first-gen...
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    MMC and stability control finally on the Ford Fusion

    What's MMC?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Mid-model change

    Generally during the middle life cycle of a particular model.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Also known as a midcycle refresh.

    We're hearing rumors that the 09 Fusion refresh might be delayed but no confirmation. I guess we'll know for sure in January at NAIAS.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    probably at LAIAS, from what I am hearing.

    MMC: Mid-model Change :P
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    I'm with you on that one...I don't see 'Yota refreshing the Camry after two model years. 2010 will bring the refreshed Camry, though toyota has been known to do partial changes. Like engine changes before a refresh, then refreshing the body itself.

    2010 brings a Refreshed Altima...and from what I've been seeing a new galant should be out by 2009. If its anything like the Lancer is now, the Galant might turn out to be competitive with the value leaders of the group.

    What's funny is that the Midsize Family sedan forums are probably the most hotly contested forums on Edmunds.com yet NOBODY ever does many comparison tests on these cars anymore.

    Not yet have we seen a comparison of the new Accord verse more than the Camry. It's a shame IMO. I'm ready to see the Malibu compared to others in this class as well because I really like the 'Bu and have always liked the Aura.

    If Saturn made the Aura available with a I4 (which is going to be avaialble this year) with a stick shift. I'd take it over the Altima and everything else in this class except for maybe the new Accord.

    The Aura so far is my favorite domestic sedan.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    If Saturn made the Aura available with a I4 (which is going to be avaialble this year) with a stick shift. I'd take it over the Altima and everything else in this class except for maybe the new Accord.

    The only reason why my wife didn't buy the Aura was because of a lack of a manual. The Altima was her second choice, but won out due to the 6-speed with the 2.5.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    Camry refresh may be "early" because the 2007 Camry actually came out early in 2006.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    While the current generation (2004+?) was representative of Mitsubishi losing its mojo, if this is the new Galant, it looks as promising as the 1999 version did. And although has conceptual details to it, do I see an i-Drive thingy there (right by the knob based gear selector)? I detest those things.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    nice quote from John McCormick-
    And talking of product brings us to the subject of appliances, a topic that Press knows well. His previous employer was and is the master of producing appliance-like vehicles. But to be fair to Toyota, that is the case to varying degrees with every major automaker in the world. Honda's Accord has vied over the years with Toyota's Camry for the title of world's blandest car, yet both models are phenomenally successful (and the envy of many rivals). And therein lies the dilemma for the auto industry, especially in the U.S. market.-end
    Auto Appliance

    I myself am willing to trade some degree of reliability for less boredom.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Car and Driver (and I) beg to differ. They call the outgoing Accord, and I quote

    "the everyman's car that bonds with enthusiasts...the powertrain is marvelous. It has torque, it is hot-blooded for revs...at redline the exhaust note snarls, a lively contrast to the other cars, which have nothing to offer but a rising crescendo of whirs, hums, and buzzes. Would you buy a sedan from the same guys who engineered the NSX? Of course you would...

    I haven't driven a 2008 Accord, but this account of the outgoing 4-cyl model ring true for me!
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I pity those guys. It seems they write these articles more out of frustration than to provide a fair view. Perhaps it is a result of insecurity of some sort. I've talked about and against "soul" in cars. But the term appliance, often an attempt to downplay success, makes more noise.

    Want appliance... you can't miss look no further than most cars that come out of Detroit.
  • chronochrono Member Posts: 149
    The more reviews I read about the 2008 Accord points to it being more of an appliance. Seems to have lost it's edge by getting bigger, heavier and softer. Looks like interior fit and finish isn't as good as before and road noise is still very noticeable.

    http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071025/COL14/710250367
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    at redline the exhaust note snarls, a lively contrast to the other cars, which have nothing to offer but a rising crescendo of whirs, hums, and buzzes.

    They must have a different one than me. You can't hear the engine in my car at all except when you turn it on. Its not slow or underpowered, I just don't understand why they are so afraid of people knowing there is an engine in the front of the vehicle and when you push the gas, the engine speeds up.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Stop reading reviews, and start driving. I haven't driven the new Accord, but the points you made were the points made ten years ago as well. What happened? The larger, softer and heavier Accord is still an impressive car, for its ride quality and handling. Need proof?

    Perhaps those freep/detroit news guys could take a few lessons on driving from C&D.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I'm lost. What are you talking about? One of the best part about Hondas is that you can hear the engine well under throttle. Even better, that the sound is actually pleasing w/I-4 and w/V6.

    For a big NO, try Altima 2.5 w/CVT next.
  • chronochrono Member Posts: 149
    The point the article was making was the new Accord took a step back while the competition has caught up or even surpassed it in several categories. The Accord is not so far ahead of the pack anymore. Actually looks like it's trying to keep up.

    Traded in my 2005 Accord for a 07 Aura XR. Ride quality and handling to me is much more engaging. Proof that cars like the Fusion, Mazda6 and Aura have won over enthusiasts from Honda.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I'm lost. What are you talking about? One of the best part about Hondas is that you can hear the engine well under throttle. Even better, that the sound is actually pleasing w/I-4 and w/V6.

    I think that is definitely true of my '93. I liked the sound of that 2.2l 4 cylinder, especially going through the rev band in 3rd gear. It had a very connected feel. The '07 I don't hear anything, I don't even feel much; the car just goes faster (and it goes faster, faster too). The '05 Legacy you can hear and feel the engine working (even a little coarse sometimes). Its just a much more connected feel.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Again, those very same points were made ten years ago too. If you look closely, now and in the past (pick any period), Accord has never been at the top in anything except ownership cost, engine quality, ergonomics and may be dependability. When it comes to features, ride quality, handling etc, it usually finishes near top, never at the top.

    I'm not sure why people keep bringing up Aura and its handling, having rented it a few times, I haven't found it yet. If anything, it lacks steering feel and response (and if GM is further softening it for Malibu as rumors suggest, it is going to be even worse).

    Accord's handling hidden are those of a car that doesn't scream handling on first glance. It is there, if you know and want to use it. I don't have much experience with 2003-2007 Accord, however (and none with 2008) but enough to know it still maintains those attributes.

    Its got all that one needs to cruise at 80 mph without worries, even in cross winds, over bumps (no additional rebound) and with communicative steering (it lets you feel stuff that many cars dubbed "good handling" don't). Even with almost 182,500 miles on the odometer, my 1998 tracks straight at high speed so much so that all you do is hold the steering lightly without having to do anything, even over bumps. The ratio tightens up and it feels as solid as can be expected. Those little things are often missed by most. They go more for the glitter.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Regardless, it still has had only two model years, 2007MY which came out around April of 2006, and 2008MY.

    Toyota is stopping production of the 2008 in Q1 next year, which is very weird, since the 08 has only been out for a very short months. Still, I think the 2009 will have minor cosmetic changes, if anything. We shall see.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Not yet have we seen a comparison of the new Accord verse more than the Camry.

    I have a hunch (not a prediction, just a hunch), that the car mags are waiting for the new Malibu to do their next midsized sedan comparo. It will make for a much more interesting story line to pit the all-new Accord against the new Malibu. Although maybe the Camry won't make some comparos, like C/D's, because it finished so low in its last comparo (behind the old Accord, the new Altima, and the Optima). So C/D might do the Accord vs. Malibu, and maybe the Altima and Optima. MT will probably include the Camry since it was their COTY last year. And as we know, Edmunds.com is planning a big face-off of the Accord, Camry, and Malibu in late November, using drivers they pick from contest entries. CR will undoubtedly do a test including the Accord and Malibu as soon as they can. So hold on, the comparos will be coming soon.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    So, they may call it a 2010 model early in 2009.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    image

    I don't know about you guys, but, after having bought a 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS and having a joyful time with it, I have wondered about a new Galant re-design from Mitsubishi coming along. And what does robertsmx provide a few short minutes later as I was reading up on all of the posts in this thread the past 5 days I've been busy at work?

    He posts a link to these pictures from Mitsu! Concepts, yes, but I can see the Lancer's nose in this new Galant. This is the new design direction from Mitsubishi and it has grabbed me by the shorthairs to take notice, uh-huh.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    Again, those very same points were made ten years ago too. If you look closely, now and in the past (pick any period), Accord has never been at the top in anything except ownership cost, engine quality, ergonomics and may be dependability.

    Actually, the Accord had quite a bit of value compared to it's peers at one point. It really had a quality advantage that many other cars did not have maybe 10-15 years ago. But now that Consumer Reports and Jd Powers have shown that the difference in problems over 5 years for most of the cars in this class is around 1 additional problem from the most reliable to the least, that advantage is gone. And at the same time, initial purchase price being thousands more than many competitors with quality just as good to the Accord and in some cases better, Honda no longer has the advantage it once had. Yes, it is still a very good car and one that I would consider if I were in the market.... but I'd have to agree with those who have pointed out that the Accord seems to have softened in the current generation and that is a change I don't welcome.

    Accord's handling hidden are those of a car that doesn't scream handling on first glance. It is there, if you know and want to use it. I don't have much experience with 2003-2007 Accord, however (and none with 2008) but enough to know it still maintains those attributes.

    While I think the 03-07 Accord had decent handling compared to the previous gen Altima and Sonata, compared to the Legacy and Mazda6 it is not nearly as connected without increasing ride quality by a similar amount. Steering feel of the v-6 coupe I test drove was nowhere near as direct or confidence inspiring as the Subaru or Mazda. And why you're talking about your 98 Honda's handling in this forum (which is about new cars last I checked) doesn't make sense to me. Should I talk about my 81 Accord and make a point about how underpowered and unsafe it was?
  • chronochrono Member Posts: 149
    Completely agree with zzzoom6. Competition is has caught up and now there are many winners to choose from.

    Obviously your opinion of the Aura is that, just an opinion. Steering is very direct with a nice weighted feel, not light and over boosted like my old Accord. Handling is very good while being compliant over bumps. It won Car of the Year and beat out the Camry SE in the Autoweek comparo for many reasons. Seems like the Aura has proven itself to a great deal of auto enthusiasts to me.

    And seriously, this discussion is about current midsize cars. The reviews related to this discussion point to the current model year of each midsize car. If your stuck in a time warp that's fine but can we stick to the topic? It's like having someone compare an old E36 BMW to all the new luxury sports sedans in the market and saying how much better it is. Who does that?
  • oldcoastieoldcoastie Member Posts: 1
    i bought a '07 mazda 6 4 cyl, man trans. Before I bought I drove the civic, altima, and camry, figuring they were all contenders. Now I'm somewhat prejudiced since I had a '97 mazda 626 with 150,000 mi and no maintenance other than routine. The 6 is pretty nimble and with the man trans pretty quick(or seems that way). For the price I think it has the most bang for your buck. ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'm curious, why did you look at the Civic vs. the Accord, when all the other cars you looked at were mid-sized? Plus there are/were real good deals available on the '07 Accords now.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    The Accord is not so far ahead of the pack anymore. Actually looks like it's trying to keep up.

    You're basing that on that one article. What about all the other road tests that say the Accord is still the target to shoot for? The Aura couldn't even best the last Accord in C/D's last comparison test. I don't see Mr. Phelan being any more influential than the enthusiasts at C/D.

    Sales of the Aura are disappointing. Just because you went from an Accord to an Aura doesn't prove anything.

    I happen to test drive an Aura when I had my Audi in for service. I don't understand what all the hoopla is with this car; not only was it a big disappointment compared to my Audi, it was even one compared to my last Accord.

    Hey, you like the Aura and that's great.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Obviously your opinion of the Aura is that, just an opinion. Steering is very direct with a nice weighted feel, not light and over boosted like my old Accord.

    Really? IMO, Aura's steering is one of its shortcomings. And which generation of Accord are you talking about that has, apparently, overboosted steering? Based on my experience, Aura is Pontiac G6 with additional frills/aesthetic fixes, much like Milan is to Fusion. The only thing I like about in Aura is its auto transmission, and it could use better (real world) fuel economy.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Gm is known for rebadges but the Aura is FAAR more than an additional thrills/ aestetic fix over the G6. While they may share the same platform, they are far far more different the the Milan/Fusion or even the Milan/Fusion vs. the MKZ.

    that's like saying the Accord and Acura TL are the same outside of aestheic fixe/additional frills.

    The Aura is a far better and more refined car than the G6 is.
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