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Comments
Besides that, in a competitive segment that also competes with SUVs, selling 350K-400K units per year is a big deal, more so when you factor in virtually non-existent fleet sales. Combine the two, work some numbers and you will see why average age grows by the year.
To quote an example, IIRC average age of Accord buyer was 43 for sixth generation Accord which was launched ten years ago. A decade later, let us assume 60% of those 375K buyers get 2008 Accord. But, average age is now 50, right? Consider the fact that those 225K repeat buyers now average 53. So, for the new 150K buyers that Honda gained, the average age can’t be more than 28! This is based on a rather oversimplified math, but you should get the point.
To reduce average age, the first thing automakers will have to do is to ensure that they don’t have a loyal base that grows over time. How many automakers want to make that claim, or make it a business practice?
Having a perspective can change a lot, doesn’t it? Increasing average age can be seen as a major issue if it grows faster than the age of cars. An exponential growth is fine, as it promises to stabilize (but probably won’t decrease). Another key is how an automaker chooses to design a car. Honda may take a slightly different approach for next generation Accord. The 2008 redesign is along the lines that worked for 1998-2002 generation. Very few 2003-2007 buyers are expected to trade in for the new car, unless leasing which might be a very low number by itself. It is all about understanding the customer base and designing around it.
Besides, average age of buyers in America has been growing anyway, as is average price of a new car which is said to be around $24K.
When it comes to interior, VW does a great job in details (but sucks in terms of ergonomics). I have not had an opportunity to be in newer VWs, but the older models had nice soft touch plastics around door handles and all. They are hard, but feel rich (another example of not all plastics being created equal). However, it seems to come with a price.
Here is an example:
Both of my friends with 5-6 year old VWs had this issue, more pronounced in one of them. The idea that makes the plastic feel good is also a risky affair as it seems to have a tendency to peel off and create a mess. The radios have plenty of nail marks against relatively soft plastic as well. On the other hand, there is absolutely no way to make an impact like that on these (radio from my 1998 Accord), it is harder plastic but great quality to touch and feel.
A lot of people also seem to prefer soft touch dash board. I have never understood the point. I had it in my 2000 Civic but top of the dash in my 1998 Accord is hard plastic (but doesn’t look like it). The lower part is padded however (Honda). VWs from that era have rubbery top of the dash but hard plastic below it (VW)
Personally, I will take anything that looks good. Feels good is limited to areas I actually use. I have also found it easier to maintain the hard dash on my 1998 Accord than padded part of it, and it was also a challenge in the Civic. Now dash texture like this will never get my vote.
VW's do have great finishing however, well detailed even in some hidden areas (sometimes it becomes a nuisance, however, as when trying to replace something as simple as a headlamp).
Fortunately, today's vehicles are much better that way (sound suppressing, while allowing the engine sound presence) than those of the past. I fully understand that song too.
van
* Gen 3 Sonata used its platform several years before the Optima got it.
* Elantra got the tweaked Beta II (with better fuel economy) before the Spectra.
* Sonata (and all other Hyundais) got XM radio before Kia.
* Sonata got active rear suspension (not yet available in the U.S.) before any Kia.
* Sonata (and some other Hyundais) will get factory nav before any Kias.
* Sonata got the 2.4L I4 over a year before any Kia got it.
* Sonata (and other Hyundais) got the 3.3L V6 (and Azera the 3.8L variant) before any Kias got it.
* Elantra SE got standard ESC before the Spectra (still not offered on the Spectra).
So I guess I don't buy the "beta tester" idea. I think the features each model gets is just based on which model is due for a redesign at a given time. The 2006.5 Optima came out about 18 months after the Sonata (ROK debut in the fall of 2004), and that may account for why it got the 5-speed AT on the I4 rather than the 4-speed that the Sonata got. Maybe the 5-speed wasn't ready in 2004.
This will be the last generation that the Legacy has no door frames. Subaru is going to full frame doors. Look at the new Impreza.
My mother has a '03 Altima that proves this wrong. It's quite possibly the WORST interior (both in materials and fit-and-finish) that I've ever sat in. The '07-up Altima has improved immensely, but GM has greatly improved their interiors in MOST of their brands, including the new full-size SUVs and the Aura.
I agree completely. Nissans in general were pretty pitiful; Quest, Armada, even the Infiniti version of the Armada the QX56 was POOR. My buddy's 1997 Maxima GXE has substantially better interior quality than the 02-04 Altimas did.
The new one supposedly corrects this. I hope to see for myself at the NAIAS when it comes to Birmingham in two weeks.
I have to admire your honesty, pmerk. My wife and I own a 2007 SEL AWD Ford Fusion and the interior fit and finish is outstanding, and one of our favorite features. The materials are top notch.
The Fusion/Milan interior is surprisingly nice and the materials used are of better quality than the Camry. Fit and finish is more than competitive - in fact it looks to me like the Ford was assembled better. The Fusion is weaker in the design department. The Camry's electroluminescent gauges are beautiful and ultra modern. Fords are sort of a retro look with a green lighting. The Camry has a more modern looking center stack while the Ford uses that old green LCD display for the radio and climate controls. Both need to be updated. Camry also has a nicer steering wheel. That being said I liked the Fusion better overall.
Good point. I agree.
My mother in law has a 2004 Maxima, and it is not all that nice either. Her previous Maxima (1998) had nicer materials and build quality.
Yep, my buddy's '97 (same car you mom-in-law's '98) is a base model, but has quality that is dang good, especially considering it's age.
It isn't all that great ergonomically, especially with that tiny fan speed knob, but it has no major flaws in fit or finish. It DOES have one flaw otherwise though; it's a horrible camel color that is somewhere between tan and yellow. In the brochure for 1997, I believe the color choices were black, grey, and blaeksch (the sound made when viewing the color).
I have driven the car once or twice and noticed it has steering lighter than any vehicle I've ever piloted. It was accurate enough, but very VERY light and quite numb as well.
What is your point of reference? S, SE or SEL trims? Camel with fake wood or black/light stone with piano black trim?
There is a big difference between a S or SE Camel interior vs. a SEL in black or light stone with the piano black accents.
Check out the 2009 Flex (which is a step-up from the Taurus/Sable interiors) for a better clue as to the future Fusion interiors.
They are all out right now, so I cannot confirm what models they are.
personally the new accord's interior looks massively cluttered. if i had a choice now i'd buy an "optioned up" 07 for the price of an 08.
The camry is definitely out of the question after my experience with it.
Never owned a VW before. I just presumed that they were reliable because i see all those old VW bugs and "hippie vans" (dont know what they're called) still driving around.
Don't confuse durability with reliability.
Also, those cars were more related to lawnmowers in their complexity, where as now they are more like aircraft.
In old days they had to stop along the road to adjust the valves if they drove their bug very far.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5839/passatqm9.jpg
copy paste the link, tall picture, didnt want to clutter the forums.
Both 2.0T's in the A3 and A4 recieved "average" rating by CR.
I mean here's how i see it. People who buy base model cars sometimes dont keep their cars in as good condition as people who buy the more expensive version. Sort of like the Chvey v Buick example. If you know you spend 38k on your car you're gonna baby it for a long time versus spending 20k on your car. See where i'm going with this? Honestly though, i believe if you take care of the car it'll last, american, german, japanese, korean. If you take good care of it, it'll take good care of you. Granted, japanese models seem to care less about getting cared for.
edit: if you want me to look up ratings just post asking for them and i'll put them up asap.
An interesting note, the Camry V6 is more unreliable than the 4-cylinder. This is heavily due to the transmission issue though, I presume.
I'd need to see some proof that the more expensive versions are normally more reliable. I tend to think that the cars owned by younger buyers (eg. Jetta) get lower reliability because those buyers tend to be more unreliable than older folks in terms of how they maintain and drive them.
To get back to the midsize category, the three that appear to have the most younger buyers are Altima, Mazda6, and Legacy. These have, respectively, 37%, 39%, and 46% in the 16-35 age range, according to JD Power.
The best place by far to buy OEM SAAB parts is www.thesaabsite.com - they purchase OEM SAAB parts directly from the OEM supplier. For example, when buying a tail light lens from them, the box will say Hella (the OEM manufacturer) rather than SAAB. And, $131 for a new non-turbo CAT, as compared to over $600 from a SAAB dealer. But, you can also buy a Walker direct fit CAT from Advance Auto Parts for less than $75.
The headlight for my '85 SAAB 900 is a standard halogen lamp assy. - not just the bulb - the entire headlamp. Its cost is around $11 from Wal-Mart or any of other discount auto supply houses. And, no fancy key FOB or keyless entry, just a plain old key which can be duplicated for around $10.
When I first became a SAAB and Volvo owner, they were not perceived as they are today. This was before both marques went "up market" so to speak. Back in the '60s and '70s, buying either was analogous to buying a Chevy or Ford. Heck my '85 900 cost $12,100, including TTL in April 1985.
Accord vs. RL
Accord is actually larger both outside and inside.
I think reliability depends on the engine itself, how the car is driven, and how the car is cared for. Car's like camry's and accords are bought my family men/women. They drive the car normally. Cars like the Mazda 6 and Altima are a little more "sporty". In return younger age groups who tend to be insensible buy these cars and drive them like ferrari's, thus causing it to get lower reliability ratings.
I'd love for you to cancel that belief after driving a Chrysler made product around for awhile. Then you will say that perhaps American cars (or at least Chrysler cars) don't care how much you care for them, they will screw you anyways.
Really now???? :surprise:
My close friend got a new Geo Prizm (toyota corolla with Geo emblem vehicle) in the fall of 1994. No teenager ever drove a car harder or more abusive than him. He drove it harder than anyone has ever driven a Ferrari (which are probably mostly babied by old rich men). He drove it like a drag strip race car everywhere he went. He floored the thing everywhere he went. It wasn't a particularly fast car, so flooring it everywhere he went wasn't really going all that fast, but he'd definitely cruise along the highways at 90 MPH traffic allowing.
This is far worse than your typical teen male driver, those who tend to drive their cars hard. However, the fault of an unreliable car is not in the way it is driven, but in the poor engineering, design, and build quality (how it was put together). No car should require care beyond that typically specified in the owner's manual for regular maintenance. Now putting it in reverse while going 40 MPH forward is another case of abuse not relevant here. If you can do it, then the car should be able to handle it.
Case in point, that Corolla clone was indestructible, bulletproof, and built like a tank, extremely well-built and put together. Nothing could bring it down, not even rear-ending a Mercedes at significant speed at 100K miles or so (because he got it repaired). It had an automatic transmission too.
Either way, he reached 100,000 miles without having to spend a dime on unscheduled maintenance or repairs (not related to damage from minor dings, dents, skirmishes, fights, horseplay). The car was flawless. I believe he sold it to another friend who kept it for a long time after (lost track now).
I purchased a domestic vehicle and babied it (in comparison to him) and maintained it supremely, but I was spending major dollars approximately quarterly (yes, that's 4 times a year).
I drove my 2003 Honda just as hard as my domestic from when I was younger (if not harder since the Honda was 10X faster and more powerful), and I didn't have any problems outside of the known tranny issue. I didn't feel like racing my Honda every weekend would have any detrimental affect on it. If it's destiny was to go 400,000 miles, then it didn't matter if it was done at 100 MPH or 50 MPH. The car simply showed no weaknesses.
CR and JD Powers show there is little difference in the problem numbers among many cars these days. It goes back to how it's cared for. Some have certain brands and do all the extra and scheduled service and then talk about how they have no problems. Of course not, it's been well-serviced.
People also have selective memories when they love their car or their brand.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
If you friend was driving 80 mph and read-ended a Mercedes driving 75 mph, the impact would be less than that of someone driving at 15 mph into a stationary object.
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4813/v4gv0.jpg
This week's newsweek. Gotta love typo's.
I certainly hope not. We have three Chrysler vehicles in our immediate family and we hope to get many more years of relatively trouble-free service from them.
Our Chrysler loyalty dates back to 1998. My wife has been enjoying her '03 turbo Cruiser for 5 years. Our '99 Viper still gets my heart pounding the same way it did when I first brought it home.
My Sebring I just purchased last month has been a total joy to drive around with all of its gadgets and things to play with. It's covered by a lifetime powertrain warranty if something big should ever break.
Finally, I bought my mom a 300C Hemi for Christmas two years ago. She's been all smiles and no problems with it.
Sorry to hear you've apparently had a bad experience.
Our '83 Reliant sucked (although it was at least in part to a thirsty Mistubishi engine...doors falling off, door handles falling off, hubcaps flying off, bad roof welds, poor power windows, etc), but the '89 Grand Voyager was great. Three kids learned to drive in that van. It had 2 failures, both covered by 7/70 (trans, steering rack). The vehicle was traded w/150k or so. Chrysler and I are good, the redeemed themselves on that van. I had a 2007 Caravan as a rental in Hawaii and it felt more/less the same (not a bad thing to me). The dash was a bit of a disappointment w/mismatched colors and textures, but no worse than my '07 Accord.
The '89 Mitsu Galant was fantastic, although it used a 2.0l FI motor vs a 60's tech 2.6l carb truck motor like the Reliant.
generally agree with this - for most of us a car is our 2nd biggest investment so therefore, human nature and our egos will want to think that we each made good decisions on a car we purchase. On the flip side of this is when a car really does perform below expectations and those memories will stick with us forever - there is nothing worse than having to make payments on a car that's in the shop.
That all said, statistics indicate that very few of us new car buyers keep a car long enough that we should have any real serious problems with it. If we limit reliability evaluations to the 3/4 years and 50/60k that most new car buyers/leasers keep any brand car then, of course, the 'buyer' should really expect no mechanical difficulties and/or is covered by warranty (which the buyer obviously tends to forgive for some reason). A number of us, plan to and do tend to keep cars well into triple digits (200k or so) and therefore for 8 or 10 years, a point at which a manufacturer's real ability to produce something better
is tested. First year or 'initial' quality studies mean nothing IMO simply because it ought to be good and the folks that do these kind of 'studies' are effectively paid for their results anyway. Show me what something does 10 years down the road ( well after the warranty expires). This means a lot. A favorable record in that regard is still heavily biased towards those mfgrs. with names ending in a vowel. If the buyer of an older car is looking for something for his kid's first car - it will likely be a "Japanese" brand if reliability is a primary consideration, and conversely be an "American" brand if cost is a primary consideration. This has been true, for a reason, for maybe 20 years or so. And now magically I'm supposed to spend 25 large because I believe what somebody like JDP says? Show me a Fusion, for example, that is 10 years old and has held up as well as that mid 90s Accord or Camry and then maybe I'll give it a fair shot at my 25 grand! So yes it will be several years before those 'American' mfgrs. see any of my money, at which point, then I have to decide how important it is to me that I support our Canadian/Mexican/Chinese friends or some fellow Americans.
TWICE bitten, four times as shy?
The lesser cars have trimmings and fittings that I can’t stand inside. Even when looked from outside. My last extended experience with a (2007) Stratus was not a good one. I drove it for about 3000 miles, with virtually all of it on freeway. 26-27 mpg was it, while the engine lacked passing power, refinement and the car was terrible handling cross winds at higher speeds.
Just a few hundred miles later, I was repenting having not gone for Accord, which would have been the first time I had managed to spot one, but didn’t go to save $10/day as Avis considered it an upgrade over Stratus. That was to save me about $50 over five days. But with that fuel economy in Stratus, and given that my experience with Accord has always gotten 32-33 mpg under those situations, the Honda would have made up for the premium. Given the choices again, I know it won’t be the Dodge, much less when it comes to actually buying one.
I am not surprised at all Chrysler has become a huge player in rental fleets. I do like their minivans though, but again, they go against two excellent ones: Odyssey and Sienna.
I was not implying anything about current Chrysler reliability or desirability.