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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Having a V6 engine is a LUXURY, and saying that is SAFER is a considerable reach. Some people are willing to pay more for the extra power, quietness, and smoothness of a V6 engine, and for some people the economy and lower cost of the I4 is more important. I thought the luxury of the V6 was worth it, and I'm sure thegraduate is happy with the lower cost and higher fuel economy of his I4. Everybody's happy. :D
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    I agree.

    My '05 Sonata V6 has 170 HP and it has always been adequate. My brother has an '07 Sonata with 3.3L, 234 HP. He says it took him a few weeks to get used to going easier on the gas pedal than his previous Olds 98, 3.8L, 205 HP.

    If I were looking for a new car, I'd give serious consideration to the '08 Sonata's 162 HP I4 and give it a test drive. I might still prefer the V6, but can't imagine a large power difference from '05s 170 HP to '08s 162 HP.

    I think it was a good move on Hyundai's part to offer 4 cyl in all trim levels, although I don't like offering the SE trim in a 4 cyl "only" in manual trans. But, that was clearly a marketing decision. I also don't like having to get a spoiler if wanting to upgrade from the base trim....that's probably Hyundai's way of pushing people to the top trim if they want something more than base trim in a 4 cyl.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It wasn't too long ago that horsepower in the 190 HP range was considered good for a V6. Most notably that was the case for many GM mid-size V6 sedans from a generation ago.

    You don't have to go that far back. Recall that the 2006 Camry's V6 had "only" 192 horsepower. And the 2005 Optima and Sonata V6s had "only" 170 horses.
  • phaetondriverphaetondriver Member Posts: 175
    Ok! Lesson learned. You all have a lot more experience with I4's and V6's than I do.
    This Aura XR is my first ever V6 in 43 years of car ownership. I have only had 1 I-4 since my first car (56 Triumph roadster) an that was a 1986 2.5L Turbo charged, 255 HP Mitsubishi. Every thing else has been an American car company vehicle which had 8 or 10 cylinders.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    Every thing else has been an American car company vehicle which had 8 or 10 cylinders.

    Now I understand. I'm glad they now have V6 engines that meet your power requirements, if barely. I would think I4 engines were diminutive too if I came from nothing less than V8 or V10 power.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    I'm not familiar with 10 cyl cars, except the Viper.

    Did you have a Viper or some other 10 cyl car?
  • phaetondriverphaetondriver Member Posts: 175
    There are a few, but my V-10 was a Dodge RAM 2500 pick-up truck :D
    I forgot, my first wife had a Carola back about 75. It seldom made it out of Simi Valley, a very rural town of about 4000 people. Of course there are like 1 million people there now :mad:
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Then this person can chat about how we want more exciting cars and driving experience.

    Amen. If I just had that passive entry key I could spend less time fumbling for my keys and more time enjoying that driving experience.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Good post Backy, I just dont get all this need for great power.My first car a V8 flathead Ford had about 40 less HP than my current I4.My 1952 Lincoln Capri had OV V8 had less this I4.My 52 Olds 98 Convertible,over 5000 lbs weight had less..how much power does one need unless you are a drag-racer? My Optima with the 2,4 engine is plenty fast enough off the line as well as passing.I am thankful that I didnt get the available V6.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Then I must conclude, you don't like self service gas pumps (much less maintain at least a few things in your car yourself). :blush:
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Yep. A refined I-4 can get the job done well in midsize sedans. I didn't see the point in getting 200 HP Accord EXV6 over 150 HP Accord EX ten years ago, not only to save a few bucks (EXV6 was $1200 more, but LXV6 was $800 cheaper than EX/I-4), but thinking long term costs on something unnecessary.

    A decade later, I'm glad to have made that decision. And while I also drive an Acura TL, I just don't see the need for the extra horses it has (almost 120 HP more to be exact). If I were to buy another Accord today, loaded EX-L will be it.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Looks like Accord and Malibu made the list.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    it can be life and death sometimes
    I, for one, care quite a bit and as dictated by my short runup merges into 80mph traffic every day. My 268hp (and 240hp) V6 sedans are certainly safer in that respect. A fact often overlooked is that many of these midsize cars of today are every bit as big and heavy as those 200hp full size cars were 10 years ago. Do we have to have sub 7 second 0-60s, or 15 sec. quarters- maybe not- but if I can have it and still get overall FE in the mid 20s - WHY NOT - when a more challenged (and a whole lot less enjoyable) 4 banger is only going to get me an extra 2 or 3 mpg?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Then I must conclude, you don't like self service gas pumps (much less maintain at least a few things in your car yourself).

    Nope, I actually do all of my own maintenance (thats how I could hold on to the '93 Accord so long; if I had to pay someone to replace the control arms, tie rods, shocks, sway bar bushings, front brakes, etc, I could never have kept that car). I pump my own gas so I can check the car's fluids at each fill-up. I even wash the cars myself. To me, maintaining a vehicle is part of the experience, where as fumbling around for keys with my arms full on a rainy or snowy day is not.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Thats weird. For a guy who has trouble pressing a button to open the door, to do all that. Wouldn't you get to drive more if you took it to a mechanic? ;)

    Seriously though, when was the last time purists complained about lack of power windows in sports cars? I'm not throwing you out there, but true automotive enthusiasts find better things to complain about than a button on the key fob (or lack of).
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I don't know if having more power is safer or dangerous. I do think it can give a false sense of security at times, pretty much like those SUV drivers who think having 4WD makes them invincible on wet/snow/icy roads.

    There's a great reason why most units of the best selling cars in America sell with four cylinder engines. Not only they offer refinement, but they offer good performance to go with it. Ask me, I drive one.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Thats weird. For a guy who has trouble pressing a button to open the door, to do all that.

    Do you know how passive entry works? Depending on implementation, it either unlocks the door as you walk up to it, or unlocks the door when you press a button on the door handle. It doesn't open the door like Kit, and it doesn't have the cool red LEDs on the front. It just saves you rifling through all your crap with your hands full to find your keys.

    It doesn't drive for you, it doesn't park for your, it doesn't think for you, it just unlocks the doors. Its a feature, it doesn't make or break the car, its a feature that I like. Most Nissans, Mazdas, and Toyotas can be equipped with it, its not rocket surgery.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    I know, they equip because they sell. Its not rocket science. Its a toy that has recently arrived in the good ol' USA and people are going crazy about it. It has been available for years elsewhere.

    And I used them probably before you heard about it.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    its not rocket surgery.

    I wonder if rocket surgeons go to med school or engineering school... ;)
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I wonder if rocket surgeons go to med school or engineering school...

    Sorry, my old professor says that all the time. He also says "piece of bread" instead of "piece of cake."
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    :D I loved it, it made me laugh.

    If you'd rather, I can make like a tree and buzz off. :)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Could get subtler and say "it's not brain science"...which does not even sound like a mixed metaphor.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I do think it can give a false sense of security at times,

    Right, and people who have huge Brembo brakes in their car have a false sense of security about being able to stop on a dime. Interesting how a positive can try to be turned into a negative.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    How true must the auto enthusiast be to like convenience if it's available. Plus we are talking about midsize cars here not sports cars. I personally love my key fob that locks/unlocks the doors and opens the trunk. Does that make me not an auto enthusiast? I'm not a fan of the auto key/start button yet as I think some bugs still need to be worked out before I'm trusting enough both from dependability and security aspects. I know my daughter who has a newborn and a 1.5 year old loves the fact that she can just walk up and open the car as her arms seem to always be full.

    Oops. I forgot. I'm not sure she's an auto enthusiasts (although her and I do talk cars a lot) or not so she may not count. ;)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    It is one thing to like a feature and another to give it an importance like there is no tomorrow. If getting the key out is a pain in the rear, I can't help but imagine how much pain turning the steering wheel etc might be, much less shifting manually, braking, accelerating... and still wanting to feel every bit of the road.

    Personally, I could do without added complexity and another thing to maintain. The fob battery dies, then what? You worry about going home in limp mode.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    And we could do without your self-righteous diatribes about what you consider important or not important or what we should or shouldn't buy.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Right. It's all in the degree of want or need. I actually thought power windows were something I didn't need or even want due to expense and possible costly repair. This was back in the late sixties and seventies. After moving to an area that has lots of toll roads and having to go through 4 of them on my commute for awhile, I came to appreciate power windows. Now I wouldn't consider a midsize sedan without them. Hell, I don't even know if you can get a midsize sedan without them anymore.

    So I guess there is a wide spectrum between "I would like" and "absolutely can't live without".
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Power windows may be considered a safety feature actually. It lets you operate with little fuss WHILE you were driving. Between pressing a button on the fob, or expecting the car to read you, I don't see that urgency, or how it affects driving.

    In fact, a friend of mine bought an Altima. She lives in an area where carrying a can of mace is advised. A lot of attacks have happened when people get out of their car or are getting in. Couple of times she was driving, I noticed she had her key chain (with the mace can on it) safe and secure in her purse. When we got out the second time, I asked her whats the point of carrying the mace if it were in the purse? In the past, she would simply have the key in her hand and would be much more ready in case someone attacked her. This is a prime example of how things can make people less sensitive to surroundings.

    Giving a little more attention to what you're doing, be it driving or walking to or from your car, can go a long way. Someone didn't think about that, did they?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    There's a great reason why most units of the best selling cars in America sell with four cylinder engines
    that reason would be purchase price (as opposed to FE) I would guess. The Camry V6 gets a whole 1 mpg less than its 4 cylinder counterpart yet costs about $2600.00 more - all this in a vehicle category that a $2k price difference can make a big difference to a buyer. That $2600.00 is really what the great power of the V6 costs (net of a higher value at trade-in), the difference in FE only amounts to a few bucks per year. 15k miles/years = 600 gallons of gas at 25 mpg, 15k at 24 mpg = 625 gallons = $75 dollars more gas at $3.00/gal - PER YEAR.
    And I agree a Camry SE V6, for example, in the hands of your average 16 year old would not be my first choice either - all good things should be used in moderation....
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Personally, I could do without added complexity and another thing to maintain. The fob battery dies, then what?

    That is why there is a full function metal key hidden in the credit card sized device. No need to limp home.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    that reason would be purchase price (as opposed to FE) I would guess.

    Not necessarily. When I got my Accord EX-L, it was $800 more than LXV6 and $1200 less than EXV6 (which was within my budged). So, price wasn't a factor, sensibility and features were. Automakers seem to be realizing it, as a result you can't get an Accord LXV6 anymore. People are buying Accord EX-L/NAVI over EXV6 without NAV. BTW, Accord EX-L/I-4 is only $100 less than Accord EXV6. Do you think that would make a difference?

    And if price were the sole factor, base trims should handily outsell the more expensive ones. That is not the case with cars like Accord.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Seems to me, if you have to have one hand free to open the door anyway, you can use that same hand to pull the key out and push the button. More gadgetry than convenience, if you ask me. I still don't see the big advantage.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Seems to me, if you have to have one hand free to open the door anyway, you can use that same hand to pull the key out and push the button.

    Pull the key out of what? Jeans pocket? Back pack? Purse? I guess if I was going to devote a hand to carrying my keys my entire life it wouldn't be such an issue.

    More gadgetry than convenience, if you ask me. I still don't see the big advantage.

    Yup, just like they said about microwaves before everyone got one.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Not necessarily. When I got my Accord EX-L, it was $800 more than LXV6 and $1200 less than EXV6 (which was within my budged). So, price wasn't a factor, sensibility and features were. Automakers seem to be realizing it, as a result you can't get an Accord LXV6 anymore. People are buying Accord EX-L/NAVI over EXV6 without NAV. BTW, Accord EX-L/I-4 is only $100 less than Accord EXV6. Do you think that would make a difference?

    Alas, my Accord EX I4/5M sedan was wayyyy cheaper than the V6/6M combo. I have no interest in something that shifts gears for me (unlock doors, yes, shift, no). I would be much more inclined to go with a V6 with a manual than a 4cyl with Nav. I don't travel out of my area enough with that car to warrant a nav system. Mapquest and Google maps have been fine so far.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I think I can manage to pull the key out of my pocket and push the button with the same hand I will use to open the door. Is that too difficult for you? Small hands? uncoordinated?
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    A question. When you walk up to the car, will it unlock the driver's door only, or will it unlock all doors? If I am walking up to the car with stuff in my hands, I will usually put the stuff in the back seat, or the trunk, which I can do with my remote key.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    When I got my Accord EX-L, it was $800 more than LXV6 and $1200 less than EXV6 (which was within my budged). So, price wasn't a factor, sensibility and features were.

    Isn't that just another way of saying value (according to your wants) for the dollar spent?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I think I can manage to pull the key out of my pocket and push the button with the same hand I will use to open the door. Is that too difficult for you? Small hands? uncoordinated?

    Pretty much. With the infant carrier in one hand and the groceries in the other, its nice not to have to try to pull the keys out of my jeans pocket. Most of the coordination stuff got corrected with physical therapy already, thats why I can drive a manual trans.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    guess. The Camry V6 gets a whole 1 mpg less than its 4 cylinder counterpart yet costs about $2600.00 more - all this in a vehicle category that a $2k price difference can make a big difference to a buyer. That $2600.00 is really what the great power of the V6 costs (net of a higher value at trade-in), the difference in FE only amounts to a few bucks per year. 15k miles/years = 600 gallons of gas at 25 mpg, 15k at 24 mpg = 625 gallons = $75 dollars more gas at $3.00/gal - PER YEAR.

    For what it is worth, www.Fueleconomy.gov has combined fuel economy on the V6 Camry at 22 MPG, with the 4-cylinder having 25 MPG combined.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    It is. The want being features, not more power. I just don't see the point. And as gas prices go up, a larger chunk of the market would too.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    That is the point many of us Hyundai owners have been trying to make people understand; value for the dollar.

    The Sonata now offers the 4 cyl in all trim levels. If I had to buy now, I'd take a serious look at the Sonata Limited 4 cyl (it's only 8 HP less than my '05, 6 cyl).

    Anytime from 11/1 to 11/30/07 I could buy a Sonata Limited (with the optional floor mats) for $17,878 + $189 doc fee + ttl. That, to me is value for the dollar. The features and reliability are awesome. So far, my small business' Sonatas (there's only 2 of us), 2.5 year old '05 and 9 month old '07 have been flawless.

    Enjoy your Honda. It may be the best value for what you want.
  • effect18effect18 Member Posts: 41
    I remember earlier in the year looking at the leaked redesigned pics of the 2008 Mazda6 and saying damn thats a nice car. I was all for buying one when it came out.... but then the hoopla died down, and a carryover from 07 was put out. What was that about? That was one of the few new cars I was looking forward to since the dissapointing Camry. I don't like the new design of the Accord, except in the coupe version. The 08 Malibu shows a promise.... but I hope they put that "redesigned" Mazda6 out in 09. Not that i'd buy one.... but it'd be a nice addition to see on the road. Cuz I get way too much pleasure outta zoom zooming buy the boring looking Mazda6's out there now in my lowley Platinum ed. Sonata.

    Oh... here's the link for the news and pics of the "new" Mazda6.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2007/09/06/2008-mazda6-breaks-early/
  • autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    Yeah but what good is an extra 3 MPG if you can't merge onto the freeway at 80 MPH and dangerously pass everyone on the right?
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    Should see more exact plans at the Detroit Auto Show in January and the there are rumours that we should see the 09 Mazda6 in the second quarter of 08. I do emphasize rumors by the way! Anywho, reviews on the the new Mazda6 have started to hit european car mags and it suggests that the car is a bit more nimble due to weight loss, while increasing size and comfort. NVH have been reduced as well so for some this may be good (though I am perfectly happy with the current model's NVH). It still is not clear whether the hatchback or wagon version (both of which look great in the next generation Mazda6 imo, and I don't often, if ever, say that about wagons). I have the current Mazda6 hatchback and find it extremely useful for things like trips to IKEA, Home Depot, or business trips. So I hope Mazda doesn't give away one of it's huge advantages in the current market and not bring the next generation hatchback to North America.

    and as to boring and generic... while beauty is a personal judgement, I can't say many would say the sonata's exterior is anything but unoffensive.
    image
    image
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If people can merge onto the freeway in a Yaris, a Fit, or heck, my 12 year old 130hp Accord, you can do so safely in a Camry 4-cylinder too. (I say this just in case you weren't being sarcastic).

    The Camry 4-cylinder is more lethargic than the current Honda 4-cylinder, but it's still better than many larger engines from 10 or 15 years ago, when the interstate speeds were still 70-85MPH.
  • autokritikerautokritiker Member Posts: 65
    Yeah but what good is an extra 3 MPG if you can't merge onto the freeway at 80 MPH and dangerously pass everyone on the right?

    If people can merge onto the freeway in a Yaris, a Fit, or heck, my 12 year old 130hp Accord, you can do so safely in a Camry 4-cylinder too. (I say this just in case you weren't being sarcastic).

    Yes, that last post of mine was complete sarcasm. Nobody needs to be going faster than 65 when merging onto the freeway. Passing on the right is dangerous --- unfortunately, many people just don't understand that.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The pictures of the redesigned Mazda6 were of the European version that is out for the 2008 model year. The U.S. version should arrive next year as an 09 model but will likely have different sheetmetal.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    perhaps the Mazda6 is suffering from a case of Ford-itis - things that are promised scheduled or otherwise publicized then magically happen late - or not at all.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    ummmm...what are you talking about? what date on the mazda6 has been delayed... I can understand people are impatient about the new mazda6 coming out b/c press reports have been very positive and the responses on sites like this and on autoblog were resoundingly enthusiastic, but there have not been dates released by Mazda that have not been met regarding the Mazda6 (mostly because mazda has released very few dates or details for the North American launch). Once again your efforts to sling mud are defeated by lacking one important element...facts.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    More gadgetry than convenience, if you ask me. I still don't see the big advantage.

    I originally agreed with you, however, after using them quite frequently, I find them really convenient
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