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Whhaaaaaaaaaaat? The Hyundai motor dates back to Mitsubishi designs from the 80s. They added variable valve timing, just like Ford did in the Jag with the DT (although why they didn't do it in the Fusion/Mazda6 I don't know)
The 4 cylinder is all new, but its a GEMA motor, so its in Hyyndai, Mitsubishi, DCX, and others.
I still think Captain does not know the difference between the Ford Vulcan 3.0 and the Duratec 3.0.
If even BMW can't make a naturally aspirated 300HP I6 then I really don't have much confidence in every other manufactures.
That's including Toyota, Honda, Nissan, GM and of course, Ford.
A V6 might not be as "refine" as the I6 but probably has more potential of making 300+ HP. Rumor has it that the Toyota 3.5L 2GR-FSE has the potential of making 350HP and Nissan already demonstrated that their 3.7L VQ can make 330HP.
Precisely what Ford SHOULDN'T do if it ever expects to sell competitive cars again.
As the proud owner of a 2007 SEL AWD 3.0-liter V6, 6-speed automatic transmission Fusion ($27,105 MSRP) I find the car to be very competitive. All Ford vehicles may not be at the top of the heap, Captain2, but some certainly are. I see nothing wrong, or disadvantageous, with refining a good product to make it better. Besides, the 3.5 Duratec V6 has already been proclaimed by Wards Automotive to be one of the best 10 engines in the world. It just that FoMoCo can't produce enough of them to satisfy the need.
Boz
Understand that this is a 'value' judgement kind of thing meaning that I happen to put a lot of importance on how an engine feels and sounds at high (4500+) rpm. I can understand those that might be perfectly happy driving anything with a DT in it, but, I simply don't believe thst those folks drive the way I do
But you said that Ford needed a more powerful V6 to be competitive. I say they offer the V6 at I4 prices to do that and improving that motor in every way helps that cause. In doing that they can potentially pull people away from an Accord or Camry I4 purchase because the Fusion will offer much better performance for a very minimal FE and refinement hit. Forget about competing with the V6 models. That market is very small.
If they ever feel they need a souped up V6 to compete with the V6 CamCords then they can always offer some sort of sport model with a turbo or the 3.5L. I don't see that happening though.
Ford is only 'selling' (given the rate at which they are losing money maybe 'selling' and 'giving away' are interchangeable terms in Fordspeak) all the Fusions they can make right now because they are intentionally limiting production down there in Mexico.
Hermosillo can only produce about 300k vehicles per year at full tilt and they are at full tilt producing all three variants. They'd need another line to produce more and I don't even know if that's possible given all the plant closings right now. Production isn't limited in the way I think you were implying.
I assure that if the engines in the Fusion was even close to those others I mentioned, not only would the Fusion production and sales be up, but also that the price differential would be a whole lot less - apples to apples. If Ford truly wants to sell 'a better idea' they need to start with truly better drivetrains - in the process of producing a car that can justify a premium price.
So given Ford's current financial situation you think they can sell more cars by raising the price? Even if they improve the car they still have to keep the price down right now and attract as many people as they can to their lots IMO. That's certainly not the way old Henry did it.
I can't say I've ever driven a Camry or Accord V6 but I have owned a Mazda6 V6 and never had a problem with it's refinement. Our Escape Duratec30 was a bit coarse at high RPM but we rarely pushed it there because the low end was enough to get us around the local hills and valleys.
The Mazda version was much quieter and free revving than the Ford version IMO. The Mazda also had an exhaust tuned to sound throaty which I think might leave the impression of a noisy engine on some people when it really isn't.
Further, Mitsubishi has not had a hand in any engine design (with the exception of the GEMA engine)since the late 80's as you correctly noted.
I was under the impression the 2.4 IS the GEMA engine :confuse:
Small wonder then that many still discount Hyundai as a "real car" manufacturer. Many have facts stuck in the 80's and believe them to still be true.
None of this info was being used "against" Hyundai, Ford outsources parts of engine development to Cosworth, Toyota has help from Yamaha, etc.
Yeah I know but many do not have a modern view of Hyundai and remember the bad old days and think they still apply...people less informed than you of course!!
I think it is far more likely that the Camcord buyer is shopping the I4 over the V6 because of fuel economy (and price) issues and not looking at the 4 cylinder as much of a power tradeoff BECAUSE those particular engines are every bit as smooth and quiet as the Ford V6.
I don't know for sure, but I believe that the Mexican Fusion plant is not operating at capacity and nor has it ever - a condition that is good for Ford in the sense that it keeps supply down and demand up as high as possible. Chrysler has a big problem right now with overproduction and excess inventory.
As Honda and Toyota keep proving, it is possible to sell things relative to window sticker and not relative to some rebate under invoice. It is not generally good for any car, the car buyer, and especially the mfgr. that they have to discount heavily. The only thing that is required to avoid this - a product that either IS GOOD ENOUGH (or innovative enough), or at least, perceived as being so and presto, the educated buyer will pay the price. Ford's problem, perhaps, is that they don't have the resources financially and otherwise to do any better.
:confuse:
Yeah, right...I really hated having to pay $5000 under the sticker price, when I bought the car I wanted. I feel so bad, I think I'll send a check for that amount to the dealer...or should I send it to Mazda.
The reality is people are not currently willing to pay as much for a Fusion, even if it is as good as an Accord or Camry...mostly because they will not believe it is as good, even if it could somehow be objectively determined that it is just as good.
Note that I am not making a claim one way or the other with regard to the Fusion compared to Accord or Camry. I am saying it does not matter what an objective comparison shows, perception remains that Accord and Camry are much better. Therefore Ford must sell for a lower price.
No, the Fusion V6 does not perform "much better" than a Honda I4. Let's look at some numbers.
MSN Autos (citing Consumer Reports):
2006 Accord I4 - 2.4L (166hp) 5A
0-60 mph 7.91
1/4 mile 16.22 @ 90.8 mph
2007 Fusion V6 - 3.0L (221hp) 6A
0-60 mph 7.47
1/4 mile 15.78 @ 90.9 mph
DIFFERENCE
0-60 mph 0.44
1/4 mile 0.44, 00.1 mph
And remember, my Accord 2.4L I4 (with manual trans) will take a 3.0 DT. I have tested this in the real world, when I found myself next to another young guy in a V6 Mazda6 (automatic, just like the Fusion) at a stoplight. He wanted my lane when the light went green, but ended up merging over right *behind* me. I could hear that DT over my I4 the whole time...
My understanding is that it is. Ford sold roughly 220,000 cars from that plant by 12/06. Capacity is 305,000 according to Ford's site so they probably are at or very near capacity to keep up with demand. Since the Zephyr changed to the MKZ and the Fusion added AWD sales have been up even more so far this year.
Conversely, I've seen that Sonota sales are tanking. I've seen nothing official on that so I could be wrong.
I think the price, with lower than average Ford incentives, is getting people in the showroom door right now and it's only a matter of time before word spreads. If that goes well then they may be on to something and nothing will help that more than some little tweaks to the drivetrain and content to keep things going.
Hyundai which had been very aggressive in an attempt to get as many of us in their cars as possible - pulled back their horns a bit apparently recognizing that it does them no good to sell the Sonata too cheaply.
This recent AWD craze is interesting to me - would think that maybe 90% of us don't drive on roads bad enough that just FWD isn't just fine, so why pay the added cost, mechanical complexities, and FE penalties for it?
The only 0-60 time I could find on the Fusion with ATX from C&D was an estimate of 7.5 seconds so that one looks to be about right. IIRC MT did 7.2 seconds in a Fusion V6.
I realize all these times we've posted were not done by the same drivers, on the same track, and under the same conditions but it's all we have right now as far as an apples to apples comparison goes.
Do you have the link to that 0-60 time for the Accord I4? I'm not saying you're wrong, but that sounds more like the manual tranny time.
thanks for looking up the numbers, kind of fortifies my point. Going a step further, which car do you suppose feels and sounds better doing it. Not to mention the 4 or 5 mpg difference in FE, which to many buyers in this class is more important to them than even that? Not my personal cup of tea, but you surely can't fault anybody for buying something capable of 30mpg overall, in what not too long ago was a full sized car!
Let's not get too carried away now! I even wouldn't buy one for lack of a V6 and manual tranny combo. But that's not common.
Remember that the MKZ did get the new 3.5 and therefore does not suffer from the same maladies as the Fusion/Milan/6.
I don't know that I'd call them maladies but if for lack of a better word. My dad has a Zephyr, I've driven it, and it has plenty of power for the large hills around here which is all I ask. The 3.5L is up my alley too, as more power always is for said hills, but it is completely unnecessary for the average Joe IMO. It surely helps sales though.
This recent AWD craze is interesting to me - would think that maybe 90% of us don't drive on roads bad enough that just FWD isn't just fine, so why pay the added cost, mechanical complexities, and FE penalties for it?
Living in the NE I do want it. However I also drive a RWD sports coupe through the same snow without problems so I see your point. Maybe with all this power being sent to the front wheels now people are beginning to notice torque steer and wheel spin and don't like it? AWD corrects both of those problems and gives some people something to one-up the Joneses with. :P
If C&Ds time is more accurate then my point with the new Fusion motor makes even more sense. You get performance that falls between the V6 and I4 versions of the competition for the price of the latter. If they can get the FE close or the same as the I4s then what's not to like?
No it's not everyone's cup of tea as you said previously but it could be a very smart move. Smarter than just giving in to pressure and dumping the 3.5L in the Fusion's engine bay.
300HP with a direct injection design and VVT should be doable out of a 3.0L inline engine. Compression might be a bit high, but well within reasonable limits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Theta_engine
The 3.3L V6 in the Sonata (and the 3.8L in the Azera) is known as the Lambda. It is not a GEMA engine, but it is a new design from Hyundai, not a warmed-over Mitsubishi design.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Lambda_engine
No, it's not false savings, it's real money in my pocket. Dollars that I got to keep while buying the car that I wanted to buy. If you look at depreciation in actual dollars, rather than percentages, there is not much difference between Accord, Mazda6, or Fusion.
If you paid $20K and you car is worth $12K in 5 years that not better than paying $16K and having my car be worth $8K. Not that I care much, in any case, as I buy cars to keep them.
My $5000 is also earning about $200 per year interest, after taxes. In five years that is another $1000 "saved".
Car and Driver seems to be the kings of car abuse and will regulary report acceleration times (especially 0-60) that is substantially better than any of us would want to even try to achieve - probably because we paid good money for that car? CR, I think, does things more like what you and I might infrequently try and therefore those differences more realistic.
May be giving into pressure as you suggest, but a 260hp Fusion with a higher degree of engine refinement would sell like hotcakes and you are right, these better V6s do not necessarily cost much more at the pumps. The FE that is possible out of the Toyota 2GR a good example of that.
I like the Fusion, it was on my "short list" at purchase time and I heavily evaluated it. It is a competitive car which keeps looking better as Ford adds standard features, and the reliability reports are looking good. Resale value remains to be seen.
However, the Fusion will absolutely require very substantial powertrain updates to remain competitive, especially with the new Accord just around the corner. I really hope Ford doesn't ignore it as long as they have ignored the Focus. That is a perfect example of a car that could have been a serious contender if it had been continuously developed and refined through the years instead of remaining basically the same. I don't think the Duratec is going to cut it.
fusion sales are still at the bottom of the barrel, and by a big margin. Its not that impressive to have a 205 sales increase when you only sold 45,000 the year before. Here's some numbers for you: rounded and year to date
toyota camry: 144,000
honda accord: 121,000
chevy impala: 108,000
nissan altima: 90,000
ford fusion: 51,000
I just checked Edmund's True Cost to Own stats and saw that it lists the TMV price for a 2007 Sonata SE w/XM @ $20,706. We bought one on 2/24/07 at a purchase price of $16,651. (Both figures need to have dealer fees + TTL added; our dealer fees were $189.)
Knock $4,055 off that TCO estimate and you'll see quite a difference. The financing, insurance and tax info. are also off the mark. If you finance $5,000 and I finance $10,000, my finance charges will obviously be more than double your finance charges. In CT, owners (or lesees) pay a property tax every year on their cars. The tax rate varies from town to town. My town's current tax rate is $21.65 for every $1,000 of the cars value. One town next door has a tax rate of (about) $62 for every $1,000 of value. Another bordering town has a tax rate of $17.89 for each $1,000 of value. (This also means that a car which has a lower "value" pays less property tax each year.)
Insurance: forget what TCO says. How old are you, married or single, your driving record, what town do you live in, how do you use your car (not driven to work, driven to work how many miles?, business use), do you own or rent, do you have other insurance with the same company, have you been continuously insured for the last six months, FICO scores, etc.
TCO and other similar estimates need to start off their comparison with real street prices, not an inflated number. But, your point about the $20K car being worth $12K in 5 yrs vs a $16K car being worth $8K in 5 yrs is valid. I don't pay my bills based upon per cent ages. The mortgage company, utilities, insurance company, etc. want REAL dollars, not per cent ages.
i drive by a chevy dealership every day. those impalas are starting to appeal to me.
That's what I said. But yet someone posted a much better 0-60 time for an Accord I4 with auto tranny. Doesn't make sense at all.
Your personal experience with the 5M in the Accord doesn't really matter when we're comparing auto trannies. What you posted in #791 is directly below:
2006 Accord I4 - 2.4L (166hp) 5A
0-60 mph 7.91
1/4 mile 16.22 90.8 mph
2007 Fusion V6 - 3.0L (221hp) 6A
0-60 mph 7.47
1/4 mile 15.78 90.9 mph
DIFFERENCE
0-60 mph 0.44
1/4 mile 0.44, 00.1 mph
That 0-60 time you posted is not right according to C&D whom we all can agree tends to really push a car to get times you and I would never dream of trying to get. Since they did publish a time, as I linked you to, of low 8s we have to assume that the Accord I4 5A is "much" slower than the V6 Fusion 6A. If you don't agree then don't ever think of saying the V6 Accord is "much" faster than the V6 Fusion because the difference in number of seconds off the pace for each comparo is negligible.
I don't think the Duratec is going to cut it.
I agree. Not for the long term it won't anyway. I think I did point out that the next gen Fusion will get the Duratec35 somewhere near 2010 for 2011 IIRC. Updating the Fusion, whether it be content or powertrain, each year is a good thing that I hope we can all agree on. That seems to be the trend so far.
funny you admit that you won't get all of that $5k back. And it stands to reason that you won't; a used car is still a used car and when it a buyer is comparing to new car prices used cars will always depreciate a lot. So if you want to pretend you're getting a car that's worth 5k more because you don't like the engine note of a car when I bet 99% of the time you're listening to the stereo and not the sound of the engine, more power to you.
In the end, I think in the Mazda 6, the duratec sounds great. It has a nice growl to it that confirms that your intentions are being matched by the car. As automotive.com wrote about the Mazda 6 v6, "The 3.0-liter V6 in the 6s greatly increases the fun. Like the four-cylinder, it has continuously variable valve timing (VVT) for its intake camshaft; but on the V6, this feature seems to be used more effectively, providing better low-down torque along with a willingness to rev, with good gas mileage and a nice set of sounds from the air intake and the dual exhausts. The Mazda V6 doesn't feel like it has as much low-rpm torque as the Toyota and Honda V6 engines, but it loves to rev and it's a lot of fun to drive."
Of course I would have been willing to pay extra for a car that braked 15 feet shorter in 60-0, or a car that had less body lean when cornering, or even for a car that was less generically styled. Thing is, though, I didn't have to pay more and in fact spent thousands less. And during the time I have this car, I will enjoy every curve, make thanks for great brakes everytime someone pulls out of a driveway in my path, and I will walk up to my car with pride instead of wondering which of 10 other simialar cars in the parking lot is mine as I load a big screen into my car while the other sedan owners make a second trip or pay for delivery.
I don't recall ever saying Fusion sales were at or near the top. Did I?
I know the sales numbers and already told you that the Fusion and it's sisters only sell about 220k units per year which is about half of the number of CamCords (each) sold each year.
My point was that Fusion sales keep climbing and that is true. Fusion sales are actually at 52,000 units this YTD as of 4/30/2007. That's a 22.4% increase over the previous year.
Why didn't you include the Sonata? It's sales are down 31% from last year at this time. See a trend? Also, Fusion sales to fleets are pretty low according to Ford and Hyundai just made some news about selling in high volumes to fleets IIRC.
That was one thing I really loved about that car when I had it. The brakes were nothing short of phenomenal.
Are you so sure about that? Get out on the net people are complaining about the MPG of the V6 Camry. I also posted a link to a site that did independant studies of MPG on the Camry back in this forum. And the actual mileage they were getting was about 4MPG LESS for the Camry..
Wrong on both counts. Fusion fleets are actually going up as we speak, while Hyundai's Sonata fleet initiative ended Q4 last year (a program lasted almost a year from early 06). Sonata sales will be down for the rest of this year because the majority of 06 included additional fleet units, which otherwise would not have skewed the YOY comparison.
The 4 cylinder is all new, but its a GEMA motor, so its in Hyyndai, Mitsubishi, DCX, and others.
Time to get better informed here.
Just to summarize from other posts and add some add'l info:
Hyundai's new Lambda V6s (3.3L & 3.8L) currently can be found in various Hyundai and Kia applications, including the Sonata. Competent engines and flexible, as the Lambdas can be tuned to as high as 300hp (which is a likely candidate on the base engine of the upcoming luxury RWD sedan next year).
The Theta I4s also can be found in many Hyundai and Kia applications, including the Sonata. Don't be confused, these are not the same as the GEMA engines. Hyundai is, however, receiving royalties for these I4s.
Bottom line, both the I4s and the V6s are designed in-house by Hyundai.