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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Don't feed a troll. It won't do much good.

    What redesigned/refreshed vehicles should we expect to lay eyes on in 2008, people?

    Mazda 6, of course. What else? Any changes to the Fusion for 2008? Will the redesigned version debut this year? How about the Camry, changes there? How about our less-talked-about domestic friends, the G6, Sebring, and Avenger? Or the Legacy?

    Just looking to create some new topics to kick the year off on a good note in here.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The new drivetrains will debut in late 08 for the Fusion and Milan (3.5L V6, new 2.5L I4, hybrid I4). Still not sure about interior or exterior updates and apparently we won't see anything at Detroit so we'll have to wait for Chicago or New York to be sure.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    " I have a Honda with problems and since it is our first I am certainly not willing to sing the praises despite our problems being fixed under warranty. So, maybe all Honda owners don't sing quite so loudly but grumble in the back of the choir ."

    I'm sorry you had problems with your Honda. Having a car company fix the problem for free as if it weren't there would be enough for me to do some singing. People don't forget, that is why Hyundai, imo, will have a tough time, and, because people don't forget Honda is the car that sells itself.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    And, therein lies the problem . . . Honda sells itself whether there are other valid market choices or not. Many Honda buyers turn a blind eye to any other competitor, and simply buy Honda. Historically, it's tended to be a safe bet. This was also reasonably true with Toyota, but everyone knows what's happening with some of their products now. Thus, one has to be careful basing a major purchase totally on a historical track record and perception. This mind set is exactly why so many people got burned by continuing to buy Detroit products, and were unwilling to initially give Asian products a chance a few decades ago.

    I, too, have owned Honda's in the past, and still do - an Accord. But, I took a chance on a 2006 Hyundai for my wife, and haven't regretted it in a minute. For the past 25 months, it's been more glitch-free and reliable than any new car I've ever purchased. It had absolutely no issues at delivery, and still doesn't. My past two Civics and the current Accord don't share the same track record however.

    Hyundai may have a tough time changing peoples minds, I agree. But, if they produce well-built, trouble-free reliable cars regardless of their price point, perceptions will eventually change.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Don't forget the 2009 Sonata, due in 1H08 with major changes including a new interior, exterior tweaks, more powerful engines, tweaked suspension etc.

    The Sebring, Avenger, and Camry are too new for any major changes.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Not sure anyone else noticed, but there's another comparo of the 2008 Accord and Malibu and 2007 Camry posted on edmunds.com's home page. It's a companion piece to the comparo done by six people selected from the general public. This time it was Edmunds' real editors doing the comparing. The results are in the next paragraph, so stop now if you don't want to know yet.

    Accord LX-P was first, then the Malibu 2LT, and in last place the Camry LE. So the order was the same as the public's comparo, in which the Accord edged the Malibu and the Camry brought up the rear. This comparo was like the one Edmunds did a couple of years ago, in that it was based on "how much car can we get for a certain price point", in this case $23k. Except they did something rather odd, I think. In almost every comparo I've seen, the winner of the previous comparo gets a chance to take on the newcomers. But not this time. In Edmunds' last comparo like this, they pitted the Accord and Camry I4s against a Sonata GLS V6, and the Sonata won--and as the editors noted, it wasn't close. Wouldn't it have been interesting to see how either the Sonata SE V6 (MSRP just under the $23k limit) or maybe the Sonata Limited I4, loaded up with everything except a moonroof (MSRP just over the $23k limit) would have fared against the new Accord and Malibu, and the Camry? I think that would have been a fairer way to approach the comparo. Given that the base Sonata V6 beat the Accord and Camry (albeit previous-gen models) last time, I think the better-equipped Sonata SE V6, and maybe the loaded Limited I4, would have had a great chance in this field of sparsely-equipped I4 competitors. But now we'll never know, will we? :(

    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=124091/pageNumber=1
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    But now we'll never know, will we?

    It would seem that Edmunds, and maybe others, have decided the top three mid-size sedans are the Accord, Malibu and Camry, in that order. Even so, that doesn't made me like our Ford Fusion any less. It is a great car with a host of nice features.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    It would seem that Edmunds, and maybe others, have decided the top three mid-size sedans are the Accord, Malibu and Camry, in that order.

    I think it's more a matter of comparing the newly redesigned models against the best sellers. We all know pretty much all their is to know about the Fusion. When a new redesigned Fusion comes out I'm sure their will be plenty of comparisons done with it included.
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    When a new redesigned Fusion comes out I'm sure their will be plenty of comparisons done with it included.

    Good point. The 2009 Fusion will no doubt be improved over the 2006-08 models. For one thing it will have the 3.5-liter V6 instead of the 3.0 Duratec, which is a relatively "old" engine as such things go. A new I4 is on tap, too.

    What really surprises me is that the Fusion/Milan/MKZ trio hasn't sold very well in the grand scheme of things.
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    Even so, that doesn't made me like our Ford Fusion any less. It is a great car with a host of nice features.

    Same with my Sebring. In 07 they completely redesigned the Sebring but it still gets little respect. I've had mine a little over 3 months and I love it more each day. Great car with a load of features. When people see it and I tell them it's a Sebring they are surprised. Current owners give it high marks on the Edmunds reviews.

    I guess it'll take time to get over the rental car stigma.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    I'm pretty sure the Fusion would have finished ahead of the Camry if it was in the comparo. Well Consumer Reports gave the Avenger (twin of the Sebring) some attention. Too bad it wasn't positive as they said it was crude and cheap. It's one the worst cars in the segment if the auto media is to be believed. Most notably its interior quality gets slammed. It'll take time for the Malibu to get over the rental cat stigma but I suspect the Sebring/Avenger will remain darlings of the rental car companies. I'm not even sure Chrysler will survive as a car company.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I think it's more a matter of comparing the newly redesigned models against the best sellers. We all know pretty much all their is to know about the Fusion. When a new redesigned Fusion comes out I'm sure their will be plenty of comparisons done with it included.

    My thoughts exactly (about comparing the new guy against the annual sales-victors).
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    I'm glad to see that someone has some love for a Sebring.I have owned lots of Mopars including a 97 T&C Lxi, that is still running at over 150K. I read all of the reviews and it seems like the Mopars in general seem to go to the bottom of the lists.
    Having said that,my KIA does seem to have a much nicer fit and finish than any Mopar I have ever bought.If Chevy can do that with their Bu, why cant Chrysler with the Sebring? :confuse:
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    I'm not even sure Chrysler will survive as a car company.

    A lot of people share that opinion. It will be interesting to see where Cerberus takes the company.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    And, therein lies the problem . . . Honda sells itself whether there are other valid market choices or not. Many Honda buyers turn a blind eye to any other competitor, and simply buy Honda. Historically, it's tended to be a safe bet. This was also reasonably true with Toyota, but everyone knows what's happening with some of their products now. Thus, one has to be careful basing a major purchase totally on a historical track record and perception. This mind set is exactly why so many people got burned by continuing to buy Detroit products, and were unwilling to initially give Asian products a chance a few decades ago.


    When you're betting $25k don't you want the safe bet?

    So what am I supposed to base my decision on? A test drive? JD Powers? CR? Or a combination of everything? I think using all the possible information combined, I would come up with the same common denominator.

    Perception is largely formed by reality.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Has anybody seen that Kia commercial that has the salesman gyrating, dancing, sweating and getting water poured over him? That thing is enough to make me never visit a Kia showroom. Maybe they are trying reverse psychology like the "Head On" commercials. It maybe makes you remember the name. However, in my case, it also makes me to remember to not buy their product.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    There are plenty of commercials that don't make much sense to me also. The "maniac" salesman doesn't sound like someone I want to meet. :(
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    We took a safe bet when we bought a second car for our 2 man business.

    I had had my '05 Sonata almost two years last February (totally trouble free) when we bought an '07 Sonata SE (mid level trim).

    The price was $16,651; $18,189 OTD incl 6% tax, dealer fees, registration, etc. That's a far cry from $25K.

    (MSRP was $22,080)
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I partially agree with you. One could say the old Pinto was a safe bet, in fact, when it's not your money anyone can say anything. It keeps getting said Honda/Toyota isn't the only safe bet. I agree with that in general. In particular for me though, I would get a Honda.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    There isn't a car company on the face of the planet that hasn't bombed in some aspect or another.

    In my opinion, Honda has the best overall customer service (and cars) in this segment, although Toyotas' is pretty good. People who sing Hondas' praises have a reason to do so.


    I've owned lots of honda stuff including a generator, lawnmower, 2 accords (one of which rolled over into a ditch and still ran another 30k miles until I sold it) and all have been quite good from a reliability standpoint. Until a few years ago, I was very committed to Honda and their products.

    But I came to want/need a vehicle that had better cargo carrying characteristics and Honda only had the CRV and some hard to find Accord Wagons that cost more than I thought they should. I never liked tall cars because I felt handling was compromised too much so the CRV was out. A friend had a Subaru that had been reliable and other people I knew had good luck with them so I gave it a shot and it worked out pretty well. Then a couple years ago, I wanted something that still had good hauling capabilities but was a bit more fun to drive and got the Mazda6. After a couple years of ownership, I have no complaints about reliability (which is what I expected from the research I did in Consumer Reports and JDpowers) while I still enjoy driving it. To me, it's a great combination of comfort, performance, good aesthetics/ergonomics, and utility (because a hatchback can carry many large loads that a sedan could not handle).

    Bottom line, I think most of the cars in this segment will be very reliable... so while I used to sing the praises of Honda exclusively, I've come to understand that the midsize sedan segment has many good quality cars to choose from.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That Kia ad always makes me chuckle, especially at the end with the "Flashdance"-style bucket of water. I think the ad is meant to be tongue-in-cheek--kind of like the current Toyotathon ads in which we see folks pushing perfectly good cars and SUVs off parking garages, or shoving boulders onto their cars, so they have an excuse to buy a Toyota. I like the Kia ad better because it's so campy, but both ads make me smile a little, which I see as a good thing. :)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    '07 Sonata SE (mid level trim).

    The price was $16,651; $18,189 OTD incl 6% tax, dealer fees, registration, etc. That's a far cry from $25K.


    Well, the Sonata SE is a far cry from an Accord EX V6, IMO. The important thing is to get your money's worth, whatever the amount may be.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116

    Someone interested in a BMW or Mercedes is more likely to come from a Honda then a domestic car. Don't you hate it when common sense gets in the way of your conclusions? I'm a former Honda driver that drives an Audi.


    Thats very interesting. A sample size of 1 is always very valid to me. Do you have any links to data that suggests this is actually a trend? I find it interesting that someone would go from a vehicle with a very high rating for reliability and durability like a Honda to one that lacks that record, like a VAG product.

    I think the point wasn't so much that someone went from vehicle X to a BMW or Audi, just that certain car buyers evaluate their needs against all available cars on the market at the time they are planning a purchase.
  • venus537venus537 Member Posts: 1,443
    That wasn't the point of his post and I didn't suggest any trends.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Kia commercial...makes me to remember to not buy their product.

    I would not let a commercial influence me that much one way or another. I did not trade in my Mazda when I saw their dumb commecial with people in a circle singing "zoom, zoom, zoom" and I did not go out and by a VW when I saw and enjoyed their new Jetta commercials a few years ago, the "it's time to pimp zee auto" ones :D ..
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    What happened to the Ford Fusion reviews to the right side of the page? The Fusion entry has disappeared. How come?
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I would not let a commercial influence me that much one way or another

    I wouldn't let it stop me if I was really interested in buying one. I see a lot of ads that are "so dumb they're cute" and like a lot of them, but this one just got to me. My wife feels the same way. I used to participate in sample groups once in awhile so I can't believe that they ran this ad by a sample group and people actually thought it was good. I can appreciate campy as much as the next person but this one was just obnoxious. To me there is a difference between tongue-in-cheek and stupid.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    A friend had a Subaru that had been reliable and other people I knew had good luck with them so I gave it a shot and it worked out pretty well. Then a couple years ago, I wanted something that still had good hauling capabilities but was a bit more fun to drive and got the Mazda6.

    I agree Honda isn't the only choice, but if I were to get a midsize sedan it would be an Accord. I nearly bought the EX a few years ago. But then I drove the Forester XT. Much roomier than a Mazda 6. Sunroof is great and the turbo makes it a blast to drive. Full time AWD doesn't hurt either.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Actually, it seems to be missing from all the places where it should be like the other Ford Fusion discussions (at least the ones I spot checked). I reported it.

    Thanks for letting us know!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    You should see it now. :)
  • urnewsurnews Member Posts: 668
    You should see it now.

    I do. Thanks for your assistance.
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    Hey, why isn't the 08 Sebring listed to the right with the others? Is it not considered a midsize sedan? Fix this please.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Member Posts: 425
    I agree Honda isn't the only choice, but if I were to get a midsize sedan it would be an Accord. I nearly bought the EX a few years ago. But then I drove the Forester XT. Much roomier than a Mazda 6. Sunroof is great and the turbo makes it a blast to drive. Full time AWD doesn't hurt either.

    Yup, I almost got the Legacy GT wagon at the time... if it weren't for the huge price premium (about 5 k more than the Mazda6) and the seats that weren't comfortable for me, I would have been very happy to own one. Extremely fun to drive (though a bit soft - nothing a couple suspension bits couldn't fix) with excellent grip in the NW's wet weather due to AWD. And of course the crash ratings of the Legacy are excellent too.

    I find it odd that with the increased desire for more fuel efficient vehicles that more cars in this category aren't offering more body styles that offer greater cargo carrying capability. Some wagons and, to a lesser degree, hatchbacks offer utility similar to a smaller SUV/ crossover w/ out the weight/gas mileage and handling penalty. If consumers want a vehicle that has more flexibility in hauling things, they will have a hard time finding many choices in this segment anymore. But in the end, fortunately the Legacy/ Outback and the Mazda6 are good choices for those who want family friendly comfort and utility.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Only 9 competitors may be shown on a page, I believe. There are more sedans on topic here than actually fit on the side.
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    Only 9 competitors may be shown on a page, I believe.

    So, what determines the 9 that get displayed - whoever sent Edmunds the most money that month?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Used to it was whoever created the discussion in the first place.

    That was the case when I created the Midsize Pickup Comparo discussion.

    Why the obvious chip on your shoulder?
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    Why the obvious chip on your shoulder?

    The new Sebring seems to get no respect.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Feel free to talk about the Sebring here, or any midsize sedan that is or is not listed in the categories.

    The manufacturers of the cars that are displayed within the nine vehicle limit send us the same amount of money as your annual membership fee, so you can see that you have the same weight with us that they do - actually you have a lot more, because you are here talking to us and they are not! :-D

    FWIW, there a large number of vehicles in this segment that "get no respect" - all we have to do is get a conversation going about any or all of them if anyone is interested. Give it a try!
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    Pat,I think that right now it's just that the Malibu is the "car de jour" that is all.I would love to see more discussion about my car too,but maybe there is nothing more to say,
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Wow, that is kind of a weird article though...they compared the Altima with the Taurus and Kia Amanti or whatever its called. And then the Legacy is in there too. Did they skew things bigger because the Accord is straddling the class lines between mid and large? They also tested the Camry and not the Avalon.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The new Sebring seems to get no respect.

    CU said it had a nice 6 speed auto and the 3.5 was lively, or something along those lines.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I find it odd that with the increased desire for more fuel efficient vehicles that more cars in this category aren't offering more body styles that offer greater cargo carrying capability. Some wagons and, to a lesser degree, hatchbacks offer utility similar to a smaller SUV/ crossover w/ out the weight/gas mileage and handling penalty. If consumers want a vehicle that has more flexibility in hauling things, they will have a hard time finding many choices in this segment anymore.

    The thing is they don't want those vehicles. Americans will pay a premium only if a wagon is a tall pseudo-SUV or "Crossover". This is why the Mazda6 wagon could only be priced at $1150 above the comparable sedan, while the Edge is priced at $3885 above the comparable Fusion (a bit of that difference is accounted for by the 3.5 vs. the 3.0). Now if you are a manufacturer and the customer has told you "put this wagon on stilts and I'll give you an extra $2500 for it" what would you do? I'm pretty sure you'd be installing those stilts.

    Mazda certainly has done this with their CX vehicles. In the case of Subaru, no one wanted the Legacy wagon they wanted the Outback.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Speaking of "getting no respect", I noticed that the 3rd-place car in the mid-sized I4 cars ranked by CR was the Optima, behind only the Altima and Accord. Not too shabby. It's also tied for 2nd (with the Aura) in the comsumer rankings on the right of this page--again below the Altima.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Good point. I would just caution to weigh the ranking with the number of reviews for any of these cars. The fewer the reviews, the less reliable the results are, of course.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I certainly don't put much stock in people reviewing their own cars. These are just two reasons: 1) It depends on what the owner is comparing the reviewed car to. If the car is the first new car, and most expensive car they have ever owned, they are more likely to be impressed. But if the car is the cheapest car they have ever owned (previously owned expensive luxury cars), they will likely be less impressed. 2) The owner has spent close to $20k on this car, so he/she obviously has a good opinion of it. Not many people will spend that kind of money on a car, then give a review saying how inferior it is to the competition.
    I think comparison tests done by people who don't own any of the cars, are more likely to be fair and unbiased.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    You'd rather people who don't own the cars do the reviews? ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Of course. How many times has an owner said "I paid too much for this car" or "I think my car is the worst car in this segment, but it was cheaper, so I bought it anyway"? Anyone who reads more than two pages of the "Midsize Sedans" forum will come to the conclusion that owners are biased in favor of the cars they own. Don't you think so? If they didn't like the car more than the others, they wouldn't have bought it.
  • drwilscdrwilsc Member Posts: 140
    The new Sebring seems to get no respect.

    Does it deserve it?

    I drove a 2001 Sebring for 6.5 years and actually liked it a lot. I wanted so badly to like the newly redesigned Sebring. I looked at an 07 Sebring before buying the Aura. I was unimpressed at the build quality, ambience, and performance. While I am always a bit skeptical of Comsumer Reports' opinions, read the article on the Sebring's twin, the Dodge Avenger. They point to very objective flaws in the car ('clunks from the suspension', 'our car came with a wiring harness hanging under the dashboard on the driver's side that was easily kicked', 'more wires hang under the seat and in the trunk'. They said that many of those who took the car on long trips described the seats as painful over time. They showed a picture of a huge blind spot because of a poorly designed rear door pillar.

    The Avenger they tested had the top-of-the-line 3.5 liter engine. It did 0-60 in 7.7 sec. and got 20 mpg. The Accord V6 tested in the same issue was both quicker (0-60 in 7.4) and got better fuel economy (21 mpg). The Saturn Aura XR they tested last year blew its doors off, doing 0-60 in just 6.6 seconds.

    When you're up against the likes of the Accord, Malibu/Aura, Camry, Fusion, etc. mediocre simply doesn't cut it.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    The thing everyone has to do is analyze the various reviews and then make a consensus judgement.

    i.e. under MPG rating, one person might rate 22 MPG a 9 and another person might rate 22 MPG a 6. There is so much subjectivity without a defined standard. But by reading many reviews, one can get an overall impression of the car being reviewed.

    I wouldn't feel qualified to rate a car I took on a 15 minute test drive. I could only honestly rate a car I had driven a few hundred miles for the rating to have any credibility.
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