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No. I won't delve into my reasoning. As I previously said, as a consumer I'm free to spend my dollars and have my biases and hyprocroses. Even though we are having a conversation about it, I'm more comfortable with Toyota as a manufacturer than the others. /ot
When you see staggering numbers, in the millions, in terms of the number of vehicles recalled, and how frequently it happens, it does bring into question the process of quality control and research and development processes. I think that is the case with Toyota. That does not mean they built a crappy product, though.
Please see this for an explanation of why the recalls were so high in 2005 and how much they have fallen since then.
I know it's a bit OT, but I had to let that out. I think I now have a newfound respect for the Accord.
I don't see the RL doing any better with this one than the old one. The MKS has basically the same torque (within 6 lb/ft), same or more features and should be several thousand dollars cheaper. And it looks better.
It's actually about -7%. January Honda sales.
The more I read about the RL, the more I think the Genesis will make a good impression when it hits the showroom.
In the past that didn't seem to matter. People bought Hondas no matter what the price because of their reputation. Maybe that reputation doesn't hold as much water anymore with the increases in quality scores for the other mfrs. Maybe not. Definitely something to think about though. :shades:
So far, 2008 has been a dismal for Honda. Yes, I know, it's only January. However, in my neck of the woods, two local Honda dealers have over 150 Accords in stock. I don't think that is short supply. Also, in my area (Fairfield County, CT), people don't really have liquid cash. It's all invested. They have huge mortgages, fancy cars, and no money. To make things worse, what they have invested is tanking. It's safe to say in my area, no one is going to do so well as of right now.
I had a gentleman come in and try to buy a Mazda3 for his son, and since the stock took a nose dive, he could not use any of it for the car. He needed to use it for income. He needed it for income because the $175K he makes was already spent on living expenses. Sad, huh?
I don't think that is short supply. Also, in my area (Fairfield County, CT), people don't really have liquid cash. It's all invested.
1. it's just a little ol' prediction that 2008 will be good for Honda.
2. People in Fairfield are in BMW and MB terriority. Accords are bought for the hired help. It's like citing an example of car ownership in the one block in Beverly Hills with $50M homes and extrapolating that to the world.
3. I would rather live rich than die rich.
Car and driver imo is too biased on performance critereas which these cars shouldn't pretend they are; sports sedans. Especially 4 bangers like these
Simple truth is that if meaninful critereas of what a family car should embody such as quiet ride, decent performance, safety, space, trunk space, back space, value are placed higher than pure performances critereas without the ridiculous got to have it factor also the sonata would have won or been top two.
I've seen the new altima front crumble under a weak crash test(who wants to drive this unsafe car??), driven the new accord and feel the ride is a little stiff and interior way too crazy, driven the new Malibu and overall a surpisingly decent car~ but i really don't know about gms quality yet. This would be my ranking
Sonata first
Accord second
Malibu Third
Camry Fourth
Altima fifth
Fusion 6th
Avenger 7th
with the v'6 comparisons coming and sonata ready for it with its sport supension version it will be interesting to see where car and driver will place it then
Exactly why are they waiting? The 2008 Accord is out and there are plenty of them on the lots from what I see around here. Are they waiting for incentives? That wouldn't be phenomenal for Honda.
It's ironic that the Civic is the exact opposite (fresh, clean & innovative outside, plain old weird inside (the Star Trek steering wheel needs to be tossed out. Why not borrow the TSX's classic black 3-spoke wheel & reflection-free black dashtop???)
The Accord's boring, overstyled looks are simply going to discourage sales. Revert back to the 98-02 model for design ideas (or even the 90-93!)
As to the earlier comment from someone else, about the past.... this is the first recession we've had in which there was a viable, high-quality, low-priced alternative--actually several--to the Accord. That may be one reason why Accord sales are dipping. Much tougher competition out there than a few years ago.
Because Car & Driver's criterea is different from yours, it's wrong? :confuse: What does engine size have to do with handling? A car doesn't have to have a lot of power, to be considered "sporty". The Sonata seems to be the right car for you, but not everyone's criteria is the same as yours.
I think Hyundai goofed on this one. They should know by now what kind of behavior the editors of C/D are looking for--e.g. crisp handling--and should have supplied them with the SE I4, with its sport suspension and steering, and maybe even the B&M shifter. It would have cost a lot less than the Limited also. Who knows, maybe the sharper handling and extra value points for a lower price would have been enough for the Sonata to tie or even beat the Accord--on everything but "gotta have it" anyway.
backy, I'm not nit-picking here (or maybe I am, but I'm not intending to pick at you), but it would seem to me that there's more a power train than horsepower numbers and acceleration times. The sound the engine makes, the willingness to rev, and the around-town "torque" should be included in scoring a powertrain, right?
I'm not "telling" but instead "asking" since I haven't driven the updated Sonata. I don't know how it sounds or feels relative to the 2008 Accord.
There is a mag that is not biased towards performance... it's called Consumer Reports. I suggest looking there for 'unbiased' reviews.
Half a second in 0-60 times doesn't seem like 2 points-worth, but then again I don't know how the rest of the point system worked.
As far as "gotta-have-it" goes it sounds like they're trying to put a point value on the cachet factor to me.
Why do you make it sound like I don't think C/D should be entitled to its opinion? C'mon, get real here. What I did was point out that the numerical scores for the Accord and Sonata were very close, except for a couple of purely subjective factors like "gotta have it". Like you said, you can't express everything about a car in numbers. They had a lot of verbal praise for the Accord. But also for the Sonata, if you read the comparo.
Oh yes, CR - the import shopper's guide.
Here's the place for that ongoing debate that really doesn't belong here: Comments: Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings.
I concur, but if your sole emphases is on utilitarian concerns, I don't understand why you need CR.
Oh yes, CR - the import shopper's guide.
Given the number of Ford and GM vehicles on the recommended lists, I don't know if that is true anymore.
When it was true, eh Ford and GM kind of got there on their own.
The Fusion seems to be an actual competitive vehicle in the midesize vehicle segment.
I get the impression that you are being overly sensitive about someone pointing out how close a Korean car has gotten to the Accord in the opinion of the editors of C/D.
To Hyandai's credit though, I think, based on the reviews I've read and heard, they have made major improvement and as much as I hate to say this, it won't surprise me if their Sonata surpasses the Accord within the next 1~2 model generations. They certainly have surpassed the Accord in the features, price, and warranty department. Personally, I actually like the new Sonata's front end styling better than the 08 Accord ( the Accord's rear looks better than Sonata's though).
Given the improvements Hyundai has made to the '09 Sonata, addressing nearly every shortcoming in the '06-'08 models, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sonata overtake the Accord as early as the next genreation of the Sonata, in 2011(?).
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To use an analogy, this kind of qualititative interperation is exactly what separates BMW from the rest of the pack. If you discard items that can't be quantitatively measured such as precise feel, interior design, exterior design all cars boil down to their numbers and nobody buys that way. So while numerical information regarding the vehicle is important, qualitative impressions play just as large a role in vehicle selection.
Make that GOTTA HAVE IT vs. CAN'T GET IT. Rumor is Chrysler is cutting half it's vehicles starting with the Viper.
And to keep it on topic - not sure if that includes the Avenger/Sebring or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.
What objective criteria do people typically look at? Price, size, mpg...maybe certain performance numbers. (Expected reliability is kind of a hybrid, partly objective and partly subjective, IMO). Most other stuff I can think of is subjective: styling, materials, ride, handling, seat comfort, convenience.
I'll challenge that remark as you really don't know what criteria "all" people use to buy cars. You might know the criteria of a few of your friends.
These "feelings" don't mean squat to the majority of family car buyers
You can validate this statement how?
Maybe these subjective feelings mean more the potential BMW or Mercedes driver but not so much to "ole Joe" I think.
OK, you did add I think to the end.
I heard last month that the Viper might be getting a temporary axe (GM brought back the Camaro) to free up some money to enhance the Sebring.
When you buy a car, do you go by a numerical scoring system? If you do, the Sonata may be the perfect car for you. Going by the number of Accords sold each year, many people use their "feelings" and "intagibles" to decide. If you are only going by the numbers, there would be no need for a test drive. You could just get the numbers from comparison tests, apply them to your own system, and go out and buy that car.
By the way, I thought the 2009 Sonata is the 'redesigned' model, and the 08 Accord beat them again? Or is it just the mid cycle 'refresh'? If so the Sonata could catch up earlier than I think they might if they indeed address all the shortcomings of the current model.
Seems to me that, if the majority of folks buy a car primarily based upon the technical and quantitative scores a car gets, then the car getting the highest score each year would also be the best selling...assuming prices are relatively even between models.
Looks like a simple theory to prove or disprove. My guess is that sales don't follow technical scoring data in a 1 to 1 correlation....I think you will find that people also include other factors in their decision making process, such as previous brand experience, dealer treatment and reputation, etc...
Of course, most car buyers in the family sedan segment are not looking at factors such as fun to drive, gotta have it, etc. This is borne out by the sales figures.
But, does that mean C&D should not judge family sedans by these criteria? Clearly, a proportion of buyers do buy cars (even family sedans) based on more "subjective" criteria. In fact, Edmunds created a whole new section of their website to cater these buyers (Insideline). These types of buyers are the main subscription base of a magazine like C&D. How, then, can you fault C&D for using these measures? Indeed, they'd be foolish not to use "subjective" measures; they would lose their reason for existence.
When reading a car review, it's important to know who the reviewer is and for what audience he is writing. And, as is often said on these forums, drive the cars for yourself and decide what fits you best.
Sure, the performance enthusiasts' favorite cars will often have the bragging rights, but, hey, don't let that bother you.