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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    You dont like the Elantra????? Why? :confuse:
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    That's kind of funny, because one of the things the 2006-8 Sonsta got ripped on was the placement of the center-stack vents.

    Backy, I never understood why the vents were an "issue". I had a 2006 Sonata, and for the life of me I never understood the CR somments about them being set too low. All you had to do was adjust the angle if the cool air was a bother. I did find the dash a bit boring overall. That is one thing I like much better on my Optima.Otherwise I think the Sonata is better. (sorry I digress)
  • according2u06according2u06 Member Posts: 95
    You're right, backy, the Altima uses round vents. But the vents are still divided horizontally, not vertically.

    Yeah, you could say the a/c vents used by Camry and Accord are boring. But it certainly doesn't deter people from buying these cars eh? :) So, I don't see what's wrong with Hyandai doing what most others are doing as far as a/c vents go as long as it helps their sales. Or are you telling me they think being different is more important than sales???

    BTW, don't get so defensive. I like Honda but am not a Honda fanboy, I have no problem with Sonata catching up or even surpassing the Camry or Accord. It would actually be better for us buyers of these cars afterall, don't you think? :D
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Not sure what you mean by "divided horizontally". The vents on the Sonata have to have horizontal louvers on them.

    Do you think that if Hyundai had used horizontal, rectangular vents it would have helped their sales? IMO, being a little different will be better for sales. I see several hints of that approach on the 2009 Sonata. For example, the USB port, the sport-tuned suspension and sport shifter on the SE (not many mid-sizers offer a special suspension option or sport shifter), the leather/cloth seats on the SE, even a little thing like super-sized cupholders. To me, it shows Hyundai is trying very hard to stand out, which is hard to do in this crowded market.

    I agree that the strong competition in this class of cars is good for all buyers. I even said something like that a day or so ago. ;)
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter seeks to interview owners of cars with more than 100,000 miles on their odometers. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com today, February 21, 2008, with your daytime contact information and a few sentences about your vehicle.
  • according2u06according2u06 Member Posts: 95
    Yeah, I should've said 'placed' horizontally. I'm not sure how else to describe this. Maybe you'll see what I mean if you look at the interior photos of each car. :)

    Oh and I don't think there is anything wrong with being different or trying to stand out, I just think that doing what most people like or used to is better for their sales. Only time will tell if their approach is going to work(again, the interior is GREAT, except the ac vents seem a bit radical IMHO).

    I totally agree stronger competition is great for everyone. This means we could have cheaper and better Camry, Accord, Altima. Sonata etc. = everyone is happy. Ok, maybe except the automakers selling these cars. :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Not to pull out the giant Nit Pick, but the vents on the Sonata ARE arranged horizontally--i.e. the center vents and actually all the vents align horizontally.

    Have you noticed the center vents on the Sonata bear a resemblance to those on the new CTS? Are those radical too? ;)
  • according2u06according2u06 Member Posts: 95
    Actually, I was only referring to the placement of center vents. Not whether they align horizontally with the other vents. Yes, they do align horizontally with other vents. How can it be otherwise? :)
    Check these out and see the difference yourself...
    Accord
    image
    Camry

    Sonata
    image

    I do see the resemblance to CTS. Whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen.
  • according2u06according2u06 Member Posts: 95
    Sorry for the double post, I wasn't able to edit so had to post again.
    Actually, I was only referring to the placement of center vents. Not whether they align horizontally with the other vents. Yes, they do align horizontally with other vents. How can it be otherwise? :)
    Check these out and see the difference...
    Accord
    image

    Camry
    image
    Sonata
    image

    I do see the resemblance to CTS. Whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen. :)
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Yes, they do align horizontally with other vents. How can it be otherwise?

    Ask Pontiac! This is in a car you can buy new today believe it or not! :surprise:

    image

    Can anyone guess what it is?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The pic Baggs posted is a Grand Prix.

    Below is a Honda Civic w/o the vent placement as mentioned. The old Ford Focus had misaligned vents as well, along with all GM trucks in the past.

    image
  • according2u06according2u06 Member Posts: 95
    LOL. That's funny baggs32. The pic about the Pontiac Grand Prix is interesting and.... well, uniquely odd.

    thegraduate: The Civic pic you posted is the Civic Si right? I thought the diaplay gauge was blue? Or is it only blue on regular ones? I certainly like blue display gauge much better than red ones(they hurt my eyes).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yes, this is the Civic Si. The 1.8L models all have blue displays.
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Bingo Grad! It was a 2008 Grand Prix. I never noticed the vents in the Civic, (probably because I don't care for the Civic too much to begin with). I can't say I like how they placed those vents. Seems like there's too much air too close to the driver. looks like the passenger vents are situated similarly, but they aren't quite as big. They're not ugly like the GP's vents though.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Economical Hyundai Elantra PZEV is best value in midsize class
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Well, the Versa is mid-sized inside (like the Elantra) and less expensive than the Elantra, so I'm not sure whether the Elantra is the best value in the mid-sized class, but it's one of the best I think if someone doesn't mind an I4 that is low-powered compared to most other mid-sizers these days.

    Frustrating review, though. It says very little about the car. But lots about the history of the Miwok Indians. :surprise:
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    Didn't learn much about the car or driving experience. Looks like he lives in CA but writes for the Wash Post. Typical Marin County existential style. Thanks for posting though.
  • weezycomweezycom Member Posts: 8
    FWIW, Warren Brown does live in northern Va., just outside of DC.

    I'll leave it to him (or others) to make any comment on his existential Marin Co. style.
  • niceguy1234niceguy1234 Member Posts: 37
    I went to the GM showroom, and tried to compare Toyota Camry vs Cheve Malibu. I found the center console of the Malibu is too long extended to the back center seat. I tried to slide from left pessenger seat to the right seat, and my feet could not cross (my shoe is 1 ft long). I had to tweested my feet side way in order to slide my body thru. I found this is very inconvienience for adult passengers to enter the car from one side (for safety reason).

    While I tried the 08 Camry, the rear center column (floor) is pretty flat and big enough for my feet to pass thru easily.
  • drwilscdrwilsc Member Posts: 140
    I sat in a Pontiac G8 at the Cleveland Auto Show. This car will be replacing the mediocre and outdated Grand Prix. The interior is vastly improved. This car appears to be improved in a number of ways. Its claim to fame so far has been the available huge engine, but from sitting in it I think it looks to be a nice car in other areas as well. Even the base engine is now GM's excellent 3.6 liter, finally putting to rest the venerable old 3.8 liter in this line of cars.

    I understand the G8 is more of a large, rather than mid-sized, car. But since the Grand Prix post was here I felt the response here was indicated.
  • niceguy1234niceguy1234 Member Posts: 37
    I think the new Honda Accord has too many buttons on the center console. It can make you lost attention on driving if you play those button. You may press the wrong button easily.

    For older people, they prefer simple center console like the Toyota Camry instead.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    I watch a TV show called Autoline Detroit and according to some dealers the Koreans are extremely disappointed in their inability to make inroads on the Honda/Toyotas of the world. They have now a really good product and great warrantees, and yet they are considered an "entry" brand, I really dont see an Hyundai Azera as anything less than an excellent car.Other than resale value,what do the other orientals like Lexus have over it? The nav system? :confuse:
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Other than resale value,what do the other orientals like Lexus have over it?

    3 things actually:

    Reputation
    Reputation
    Reputation
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Isn't reputation the same thing as resale value, assuming the same condition rating?
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    No, I meant that some people won't even consider a Korean brand based on their less than stellar past reputation regardless of current quality and value. I don't have anything against them personally and I would probably recommend a Sonata to someone who was looking but I personally don't want one - it's just a personal preference.
  • drwilscdrwilsc Member Posts: 140
    Sitting in the Camry and Accord back-to-back at the car show, I have to totally agree with you with regard to the Accord's dashboard vs. the Camry's. The Accord's dash is both busy and ugly, the Camry's is much better. All of those black buttons in the center of the dash simply do not appear to be well thought-out. My wife, independently of me, came to the same conclusion, and she drives a Honda Odyssey. I also felt the the Sebring's dash had way too many cheap-looking plastics, and I wanted to like it having owned a 2001 Sebring for several years. The Aura (which I happen to own) has a clean-looking dash, I liked it about as much as the Camry, my wife actually liked the Camry better.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    No, I meant that some people won't even consider a Korean brand based on their less than stellar past reputation regardless of current quality and value.

    If my wife hadn't owned an 80s Hyundai Excel in high school, we would probably have had an Elantra by now (when my wife was commuting 100 miles/day). If I hadn't had a k-car in high school, I probably would've owned an SRT4 by now (at least until the little one showed up).
    If Ford still made a Contour V6/MTX, I probably would've bought that again. If Subaru still made a turbo stick Legacy wagon, I am sure we would own one now (I still regret getting the base wagon, but the vehicle overall is terrific).

    The point is some people have biases in their past and it takes a while to over come those, and sometimes, the manufacturer no longer makes what someone is looking for. It took Toyota a while to overcome the stigma of overheating toyopets in southern California, and it took Honda a while to overcome the rusted clasped shock towers in the midwest.

    I also think the Koreans need to look at their dealer network. The 3 closest Kia dealers look like a Walmart and are run like a 3rd world marketplace. Hyundai dealers are marginally better. Honda/Toyota is more like Best Buy, its a commodity product and they know it. If they don't give your price, there are 3 other dealers within 50 miles with the exact same car.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    All of those black buttons in the center of the dash simply do not appear to be well thought-out.

    I submit that what a dash "appears" to be, at a car show, does not give much indication of it's true functionality. Having fewer buttons on a dash will many times create complexity. If you have to press a button 5 times, to cycle through selections, while watching the display for your preference, it creates much longer "eyes off the road time" than pushing one button, one time. More buttons can be easier, and safer than less buttons.

    For example, my 03 Accord has 1 button for selecting all the A/C vent choices. You push the button however many times to get to the selection you want (floor, windshield, dash vents + combination of floor/windshield for heat and defrost). While this eliminates 3 buttons, and looks neater on the dash, you have to push the button usually at least 3 or 4 times (while watching the display). If you happen to accidentally hit the button 1 extra time, you have to push it 3 more times to cycle back to the correct choice. My Accord has automatic climate control, so I can change the vent positions by the temperature setting. If I had an 03 Accord without the auto climate, I would be wishing for more buttons.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    And of course, most mid-sized cars today have at least the option of audio controls on the wheel.

    I like the rotary knob approach for HVAC controls. The knobs are big and grippable even with mittens on (more important than some of you may think, unless you've lived where it regularly gets below zero). They are also intuitive. The only time I'd need to look at them while turning them might be when adjusting between, say, heat and defrost, but I seldom do that while driving and if so it's a click or two away.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    If you have to press a button 5 times, to cycle through selections, while watching the display for your preference, it creates much longer "eyes off the road time" than pushing one button, one time.

    I concur that watching a display while cycling through a control can create substantial eyes off road time, but my question is why must the driver look at the display? Is there no other feedback that the button is depressed? Is it due to latency in the system (is there a lag from selection to action)?
    Multiple presses of the same button/control usually reduce eyes off road time because the driver's finger is already located so the glance to position the finger is eliminated.

    More buttons can be easier, and safer than less buttons.

    Again, I concur in some situations, but visual search in a crowded field can also result in eyes off road time. There is also the issue of real estate and packaging, as there are only so many locations where switches can be placed within the reach of the driver and not blocked by another control.

    You push the button however many times to get to the selection you want (floor, windshield, dash vents + combination of floor/windshield for heat and defrost). While this eliminates 3 buttons, and looks neater on the dash, you have to push the button usually at least 3 or 4 times (while watching the display).

    That seems a little odd as I thought there was an FMVSS requirement to have the defroster be a top level choice (ie a direct button press).

    If I had an 03 Accord without the auto climate, I would be wishing for more buttons.

    My '07 Accord is much more conventional. There is a knob for fan speed, a knob for temp, and a row of buttons to select where the air should go (defrost, feet, face, etc).

    The trade off between the number of switches and visual clutter lead to things like i-drive and Audi's MMC. It is also why touch screens make their way into non-nav vehicles like the Infiniti.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    I hadn't thought of that,but you're right. The multiple switcher were better.My optima has only a knob which cycles the choices of the air duct preferrences. It looks nice,but it does take the drivers eyes off the road. Of course I can just set the temp. and let it do it automatically.Usually that works OK. I wonder how the computer makes the choices...hmmmmm :confuse:
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    If you have to press a button 5 times, to cycle through selections, while watching the display for your preference, it creates much longer "eyes off the road time" than pushing one button, one time. More buttons can be easier, and safer than less buttons.

    Or, if you actually are familiar with the car you drive (something that usually happens after a few drives), you KNOW exactly how many times to hit the button in order to get the desired function, without increasing the "eyes off the road" time.

    Sorry, but Honda has a fascination with buttons that neither helps the aesthetics nor the actual functions. Conversely, you have BMW's needlessly-complex and frustrating Idrive, quite possibly the worst control ever placed in a car. Whatever happened to the simple logic of the center console? A separate cluster for the radio (with 8-12 easy functions) located above the HVAC controls (also a separate cluster, with a few easy-to-use rotary knobs and/or a few buttons). Both fall easily to hand, and are easy to operate.
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    "A separate cluster for the radio (with 8-12 easy functions) located above the HVAC controls (also a separate cluster, with a few easy-to-use rotary knobs and/or a few buttons). Both fall easily to hand, and are easy to operate. "

    This is what the '07 - '09 Camry has. Same as my older Toyotas.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    This is what the '07 - '09 Camry has. Same as my older Toyotas.

    As well as the Fusion/Milan, the Altima, the Mazda6, the Malibu, and the Sonata.
  • drwilscdrwilsc Member Posts: 140
    You push the button however many times to get to the selection you want (floor, windshield, dash vents + combination of floor/windshield for heat and defrost)

    The Aura has simple dials to choose these selections (as Backy mentioned in the previous post) and manages to be clean and simple without toggling through a menu of choices with a single button. I do have have to agree, though, that the 08 Accord may well be an improvement to the 03, which sounds very inconvenient and possibly a little dangerous if you start fumbling through these choices while driving.
  • karpediemkarpediem Member Posts: 46
    Just wanted to toss out that my wife and I were deciding between the Accord and Altima. When we took the Accord for a test drive it started get too warm by our heads from the heat, so I went to change the fan to the floor and it was the most frustrating thing in the world because I couldn't find the stupid button. There were so many buttons, I felt like I had ADD. Furthermore, the button ends up being a MODE button which I have never had in a car before.....it's always been pictures. I couldn't get over all the buttons, and they even tried to save some by using a MODE button you have to hit multiple times. We just bought the Altima yesterday and are very happy with our purchase.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I like the buttons for vent placement over the knob, because with the buttons five in a row, I don't have to look. In fact, in my 1996 Accord, pictured below, the button selected for vent not only has an LED, but actually clicks in when chosen, aiding in tactile feel for knowing your choice was selected. It helps reduce eyes-off-road time further by becuase of the pressed-in part: say I have Face/Feet selected and want Feet/Defrost, I just feel the indention of the pressed button, and go right 2 buttons. It's hard to explain, but hopefully you get what I mean.

    The radio being seperate from the climate is fine, but I would prefer the display and knobs be up higher (I have an aftermarket Pioneer unit now, which I had installed when I got the car in 2002).

    image
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I'm not speaking for thegraduate, but not everyone gets in the car being the last person who drove that particular car. :)

    But I usually AM the last person who drove my car and I rarely have any idea where I left the climate control when I last exited it. We can call it early senility if you like. :P
  • scwmcanscwmcan Member Posts: 399
    I prefer the knobs (or dials), but only if they have a firm detent that clicks in to each position, then you know one click over is the face etc. Actully there was one system of buttons I prefered more, in my old Volvo 240 there was a boton for floor vents, a button for defrost and (as I recall) a button for dash vent (as well as a rec button), you could have any combination that you wanted (including all three) it was much more flexible than any predetermined dial or button (you weren't forced to only have the five different settings (or so) that the manufactures seem to have decided are all you need nowdays). That said there must be some reason that volvo stopped doing it, and no-one else copied them, so for some reason it must have been decided ti wasn't such a good ides.
    Just my .02 worth.
    Scott
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't see a big difference in feeling for a button and knowing you go right 2 buttons, or feeling for a big dial and knowing that you turn it two clicks to the right to go from heat to defrost. But the main thing is that you like how the controls work.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, with a round knob, you have to look and see what position it is in (unless your fan is blasting, which means you can feel where it's blowing). With the buttons pressed in, you can do it all by feel.

    We're all nit-picking at this point though (especially me!). :blush:
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    My '07 Accord is much more conventional. There is a knob for fan speed, a knob for temp, and a row of buttons to select where the air should go (defrost, feet, face, etc).

    So that's it. Accords without auto climate control have a knob for the vent positions, instead of the button. That knob (on auto climate models) is used for the temperature setting. And yes, there is a sperate button for defrost mode.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    So that's it. Accords without auto climate control have a knob for the vent positions, instead of the button.

    Not quite, elroy, re-read the bold part of your own post. The Accord has a row of buttons in non-Auto Climate models, as in my Accord pictured below (you can't see the whole thing, but you get the idea).

    image

    EDIT: Well shoot, the CarSpace logo covers it up. Go to my carspace page and look in the album for my two Accords to see the photo I'm talking about. It's on the second page in the album.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The Accord has a row of buttons in non-Auto Climate models

    That's the way I would want it. Hit 1 button, one time. I just assumed all Accords (even the ones without auto climate) had the 1 button that cycled through the selections. I like the separate buttons, better than the dial method also. If that means having more buttons, so be it.
  • tedebeartedebear Member Posts: 832
    My 07 has a single mitten size knob that can direct the vent output or switch to auto climate control. It has a nice notch feel to let me know when I've switched to a different setting.

    I usually just leave it on "Auto" because it seems like the car can read my mind when I want a little more heat on my legs or elsewhere. Being that it's a Sebring it's something most people wouldn't expect in a car with a rental stigma and a supposedly cheap plastic interior. ;)

    <img src="http://www.chrysler.com/shared/2008/sebring/gallery/enlarged/int/photo_10.jpg
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It must be too wide, I can't see the reply buttons on the posts.

    Since it's so big though, I can see the rough grain of the plastic around the keyhole and on the dashboard.

    The only thing I'd change about the Sebring's climate control is to make it dual, and add a screen (perhaps a' la Nissan Altima) to see what number you're dialed to.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Uh, yup, I'd say you're nitpicking with the Super-Sized Nit Pick. I know I'm a lot older than you are, yet I have no problem remembering what mode I had the HVAC in when I started the car. ;) So I reach for the big 'ol mode dial, turn it (for example) two detents to the right to put it into defrost from heat (or two to the left to move from defrost to heat), and presto-chango we're done. All by feel (maybe a little peripheral vision when reaching for the knob, but it's the closest of the 3 HVAC knobs so it's easy to find by feel.) And I can do it with mittens on. Not sure if that's possible with the buttons on the Accord--depends on how big they are and how close together they are.
  • hackdhackd Member Posts: 65
    I just bought a Subaru Legacy that is pre-wired for Satellite Radio. They want to charge $450 to hook it up...can I get it cheaper from a store with professional installation. I know I could do it much cheaper on my own but I am clueless in this area....any help would be appreciated.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Too-wide pictures have presented a number of problems. I think they've changed something recently, though, because no longer do they make all the posts on the same page be unreadable by chopping off the right side of each post.

    The Save, Reply, etc., links are still there (these days, anyway, who knows what changes will occur next or when :-)), they are just on top of the right sidebar. But if you can't see them, use the "Last" link or the "Go To" msg number box on the page bar to back the page up and get the too-wide picture below the right sidebar. You'll be able to get to those links then.

    Hope this helps.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Next time you drive your car, try glancing down at the setting on the HVAC mode control before you drive off. That might help. :P
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