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Comments
why would anyone care what it looks like?
Regarding actual midsize sedans, looks like the Fusion is quite a deal right now...if you own something else there appears to be $4000 in rebates available...$1000 "conquest" rebate plus a $3000 general rebate. At least this is what edmunds shows in my area.
I actually have 2 friends in negotiations for that deal now. One is dumping a colossal POS 90s ES300 (the dull part is the car's fault, the POS part isn't) to pick up a Fusion, and another buddy is dropping a 90s Accord. They both sound pretty geeked about SYNC, so I guess its doing its job. I was actually kind of bummed I was hoping the guy with the 90s Accord was going to buy my '07 so I could get something a bit more fun.
I guess that is just what a few key features and a good blurb in CR gets you.
Driving position was quite good, although I thought the upper back cushion stuck out a bit too much. The car had Sync but we didn't get to play with it as it was a business trip and we were talking most of the way. The car was rock-solid, not a hint of a squeak or rattle, and not much wind noise or tire noise. About the only gripes I have on the car are that there was a loud growl on acceleration, although I don't mind hearing a little engine noise in that case, and it was hard to open the trunk as there was no good place to grip the lid.
With Milan I4 (AT with alloys) prices advertised at just over $15k (or $189/month 3-year lease with no money down) in my area, I think it's a very good buy.
It might not be more fun, but with the $4,000 rebate, maybe the Ford dealer would be paying you to trade your Accord for a Fusion.
not a perfect car, but it has was i was looking for.
awd, moonroof, and i can fit in the back seat. i'm a little over 6ft in height.
the v6 is raspy when it first starts up. but i don't notice it once it warms up.
last winter i noticed while driving my suv in a couple of snow storms, the only cars i saw moving were an mkz and a milan.
i figure the fusion may not be the best at anything, but is a winner overall.
i call it my "poor man's subaru". :P
I have also realized my annoyance with the suspension is due at least partially to an underdamped condition when cornering. On a steady sweeping corner (like a cloverleaf ramp) the car gets an oscillation that is benign but disconcerting and annoying. I really feel like the car is $1500 away from being something fun; adding Bilstein dampers, maybe a slightly stiffer sway bar if its available, and some real tires/wheels would bring a big transformation, but I don't know if I want to put that into the car or just start with something different.
I do like the way it holds the infant seat and allows seating in the outboard positions and I like the power/economy balance. Interior fit and finish is poor (the dash is a disaster), the EX wheel feels like 80s plastic (because it is) and the shifter throws are a bit long.
The other side of things is I have been driving a lot of midsize sedans for work (Aura, Fusion, Malibu) lately, and none of them really feel much better. I probably should've gone with the Civic SI, a MS6, a GLI, or a TSX but those were all considerably more expensive.
I guess that is just the way the compromises go in vehicle design. I also think that is why I like used vehicles, I feel more freedom to repair and upgrade the vehicle to meet my needs.
So far, I like the way it drives more than any of the other cars. It has sporty handling around curves like an Accord, but with a quiet, comfortable ride like Camry. Interior has no squeaks and rattles after driving it around town for several hours.
The back seat is a bit tight, so rear tall passengers will have to maneuver their knees into the scooped space in the rear seat backs and there is no rear sear armrest. Foot room is also very tight. It's easy to get your feet tangled up in the seats and door openings when entering the rear seat or trying to slide across to exit out of the opposite rear door. The smaller rear seat is a disadvantage vs the Accord and Camry, but I don't plan to carry rear passengers more than for short drives a few days a month, so it isn't a deal killer. It isn't really that bad that they won't be able to live with it.
I didn't like that the trunk lid barely cracks open when you use the remote, unlike many cars where the lid pops open several inches so it would be easier to open with your hands full.
I think a 2009 Malibu 1LT with 6-speed automatic and the standard XM radio, OnStar navigation, MP3 playback and bluetooth will be a nice value for around $22K.
I test drove a couple Honda Accords EX-Ls and I really wanted to like them because they have a big back seat and Honda resale value, but they both had annoying interior rattles that turned up within the short test drives.
The general level of road noise is quite a bit more than the Camry and Malibu, but the rattles are the real problem.
The Camry seems to be the closest to what I want since it has a nice, quiet ride and has resale and reliability in the same range as the Accord. It just doesn't handle or steer as well as either the Accord or Malibu. I could get a Camry SE, but then the rear seat doesn't fold and the body kit is over the top.
I also don't really like the idea of buying a 2009 Camry when I know the 2010 is less than a year away and will be have some styling updates (at least a new grill and tail lights, maybe more) and new features. So, in less than a year I would have an old-looking car and maybe miss some great new improvements. Maybe it will get Toyota's new 2.7 liter engine that might have the same fuel economy with more power than the current 2.4 engine. This is certainly possible if they replace the 5-speed automatic the 4 cylinders now use with the Hybrid's CVT. The 4 cylinder Altimas currently use a CVT, so this isn't impossible or even unprecedented.
A 2009 Hyundai Sonata GLS with an option package is a possibility only if incentives are increased so I can buy one cheaply enough to offset the low resale. I plan to change cars roughly every 5-7 years. I don't want a 2008 Sonata.
I think the most likely car will be end up being a factory order Camry LE with VSC, JBL/bluetooth and alloy wheels. I will also consider a 2008/2009 Camry Hybrid if I decide I can live with the subcompact-sized trunk in the Hybrid.
Next options would be the 2009 Malibu 1LT or 2009 Sonata for the right price.
Least likely option will be a 2008 Accord LX-P if I can live with the road noise and if the LX-Ps don't rattle like the EX-Ls did,
Besides, nobody has ANY idea about the resale values of the Camry, Malibu, or Sonata in 5-7 years. Many can (and will) assume that the Camry will hold it's value better than the other two, but from all the problems I've heard about the current-gen Camrys, while hearing next to nothing about the Malibu, I wouldn't be so sure. You can also get a better out-the-door price on the Malibu and Sonata compared to the Camry, which would offset most (if not all) of the supposed lower resale value. In 5-7 years, why not try to sell it yourself? It'll make a great used car if it's taken care of (which I'm sure you will), and you'll get more of your $$$ back.
Most of all, buy what you prefer to drive, and can better enjoy (and not just tolerate) on a day-to-day basis.
The invoice of a Sonata GLS automatic with option package A (power seat, steering wheel controls, automatic headlamps) plus bluetooth is $20066. With $1000 rebate that would still be $19066. A 2009 Camry LE with alloy wheels, bluetoo and VSC would have an invoice of $21,208 and no rebate. About $2100 difference. You don't have XM on the Camry, but you get a more powerful stereo with the bluetooth fully integrated. Currently KBB shows about $3500-$4000 more trade-in value on a 5 year old Camry LE than a Sonata with the same mileage and condition, so the Sonata will need bigger incentives than only $1000 for it to be worth it to me even if the resale difference narrows somewhat with this newer Sonata. The only advantage I can see for the Sonata is factory XM radio, longer factory warranty and not having to wait 8 weeks to order a Camry LE with VSC
.
I don't know what the pricing will be on the 2009 Malibu 1LT with 6-seed and bluetooth. Pricing should be out in a month or two. The Malibu 1LT would have the extra conveniences of remote starter and the 110V outlet.
The Camry's and 2009 Malibu's bluetooth are fully integrated with the stereo and steering wheel controls which I prefer over the Sonata's and Accord LX-Ps bluetooth that require to manually mute the stereo and then take a hand off the wheel to answer and end calls. You only get a fully integrated bluetooth on Accords with factory nav.
The Malibu and Sonata have standard XM radio and the Malibu also includes one free year of OnStar with Turn By Turn Navigation.
Malibu, Sonata with option package and Camry have fully automatic headlights (that turn on when when it gets dark.) Accord only has auto-off headlights.
Malibu has the smallest trunk lid opening by far, so some items won't fit through the opening even if the trunk is large enough for it to fit otherwise.
All except the Malibu have very roomy rear seats All except the Malibu have 8-way power driver seats. The Malibu has optional 6-way power with manual backrest unless you get the top trim LTZ.
So my advice is, buy the car you think you'll like driving the most for the next 5-7 years. That's a long time to live with a car. After those 5-7 years, purchase price and resale will even out, especially if you invest the money you save buying the Sonata. That has been my experience owning two Hyundais over the past 7-1/2 years and comparing their depreciation with those of the comparable Hondas, which have historically high resale values. But if you get the Sonata, it would be wise to wait a few months until the rebates ramp up on the 2009s. That should not be a problem for you since you'd have to wait until late this year to get a 2009 Malibu or early next year to get the Camry you really want, a 2010 model.
Another thing to consider is that the Mazda6 will be redone this fall, and it wil be the newest design in the mid-sized class when it debuts, so it might bear waiting for if you want the "latest and greatest", which it seems you do (ala 2010 Camry).
If I get a Camry XLE, I would lose the folding rear seat, but if I was going to take the time to factory order one anyway, I could order an XLE with nav and skip ordering the optional heated leather seats.
The price of a 4 cylinder XLE with nav, stability control and the standard cloth seats is now closer to the Sonata Limited with nav. I would give up the leather that I don't like on blazing hot summer days anyway, so it isn't much of a sacrifice.
5-7 years is a long time in the life of an automobile, and many things can change between now and then. Frankly,if gasoline hits $6-8 per gallon, the value of any current automobile available today will be in the dumper.
So, get what really excites you, assuming you have the cash to pay for it!
I would expect gas-guzzling SUVs will continue to lose value and popularity and many people will downsize from V6 and V8 cars and trucks down to 4 cylinder models.
Some people driving midsize cars might downsize to compacts and subcompacts, but there are still alot of people who going from a 14 mpg SUV to a 25 mpg mid-sized sedan will be be more likely than them dropping all the way down to a Civic or Yaris.
I'm considering the Camry Hybid even with its tiny trunk (at least the rear seats fold down and provide a small pass-through unlike the Altima Hybrid) and I could easily average over 35 mpg with that, but then after 7 years the resale might not be very good because the second owner may be scared of owning it after the 8 year battery warranty expires. They'll probably look past that if gas is over $5/$6 a gallon though and it would still have 1 year left on that warranty anyway and the buyer should feel lucky to have a warranty of any kind on a 7 year old used car.
In 7 years, there will be better and a wider selection of hybrids as well as many more diesel cars available if gas prices keep going up at the current rate.
Good point.
As a matter of fact, since there are soooo many used Camrys out in the used car market right now, that is effecting the wholesale/trade value of the car. They are a dime a dozen. Right now at the auctions, they are not going for much over book, compared to what they used to do. This by no means implies that the resale is not great. The Camry still has a great resale value. You cannot forget, a car in only worth what someone is willing to pay!, not what a web site says it's worth!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=781RajEcM4E
I like it the most so far, but the Camry is close. I'll probably check out the 2009 Sonata GLS before making a decision.
There are also a few other cars (Altima, Sentra, Civic) that I may consider if I hear that they'll add VSC for 2009.
Dealers should be able to take orders for 2009 Malibus in just a few more weeks. Maybe before the end of this month.
Civic is adding VSC for 2009, as an option at least.
If I keep it for 7 years instead of 5, the resale difference will be less.
If they don't overproduce them and try to force sales increases with big rebates, then the resale may be better than expected.
Maybe they should just accept the fact that this car will not sell 400K a year like a Camry or Accord and not dump them on the market with $3000 rebates like Hyundai would do and what they did with the old Malibu and fleet sales.
http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr041008.html
Maybe when the new Malibu reaches the end of its life (or becomes the next "Malibu Classic"), there will be big rebates on it also. It's a brand-new model now, so no need to ramp up the rebates just yet. I'm seeing discounting in my local area, though.
Took 'em long enough. The Elantra beat them by a year. Now maybe a Civic is worth considering when I buy this fall.
Used to be Honda was ahead of the game...how'd they let Hyundai get an edge on them?
Mazda offered stability control in the Mazda3 two years before the Civic. However, there still is no DSC in the 2008 Mazda6 :confuse: Apparently, the new 09 Mazda6 will have it.
DSC: Dynamic Stability Control
Many mfgrs call "stability control" many different things. Those are two acronyms that mean the same thing.
Not having ESC is a deal-breaker for me. Sometimes I get stuck driving in garbage, and being in it for an hour or more doesn't fill me with confidence...
Why do you think 2009 Malibus will be at dealers in June, when the 2008s didn't appear until last November? If 2009s will be available in June, I wonder why GM went to the trouble of just now introducing a new powertrain for the LTZ for the 2008 MY--which ends in less than two months?
I recall in the 70's that the MPG ratings figured very prominently in most car ads (and probably went a long way in influencing all my car buying decisions since, regardless of fuel prices)
What if it came with a long wheelbase option with seating for 8, yet was shorter than most midsizers?
I'm referring to the Ford Tourneo Connect, a vehicle I fell in love with during a visit to England. It's sold primarily as a commercial vehicle in Europe, but I really believe its no-nonsense utilitarian 'style' would have LOTS of appeal stateside. Think of it as a modern-day VW Microbus, with none of the silly sporty/luxo pretense we get from any current vehicle here.
Ford.... stop it with the overweight 4wd V6 slushbox 16mpg crossovers you love so much, and get this thing federalized!
link:
http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/tourneoconnect07/-/-/-/-/-/-
I'd take a lonnnng look at this if I was in the market for a traditional midsize car today.
GM is almost done taking orders on 2008 Malibus. They should start taking orders on 2009s by the end of the month and start building 2009s sometime in June. So the very first 2009s could hit the lots before the end of June or else July.
all-new MAZDA6 sports sedan will launch later this year, with an expected on-sale date in late summer, 2008.
the 2009 MAZDA6 was designed and engineered for the needs, wants and desires of the North American customer.
(that doesn't sound so good to me)
As on every Mazda, balance, dynamics and on-road feel ... will set the MAZDA6 apart from its competition.
(that sounds better)
Let's not get too hasty with those numbers yet. The power is assumed but we don't know that the engine will be built in Japan like the CX-9's. Ford has the capability to build the 3.7 here in Ohio. I'm not saying the aren't using the Japan built 3.7 but it would make more sense for them to use the one built here so keep costs down.
One other thing I noticed which is a HUGE disappointment to me is the lack of a manual tranny for the V6 models. Those get ATX with sport shift only. You can still row your gears with the I4 though. Seeing as Mazda couldn't keep V6 models with MTX in stock when this car was first introduced 5 years ago I would have thought that drivetrain combo would have been a no-brainer. :confuse:
I'll wait to see the car in the showroom with an options list.
The vast majority of Americans do not want a manual. Since only Americans feel there is a need for a V6 in a car such as this, I guess that is why no manual. With the 4 cyl, they can just use the manual that the rest of the world gets.
I have tried twice (2005,2007) to get a Mazda6 V6/stick and both times been put on a waiting list (or offered the opportunity to take yellow or purple one on the lot). I was not so excited about the yellow '05 or the purple '07 so that didn't leave me with a whole lot of choices. They had a number of 4cyl/5speed base (VE?) models which at that point had single disc CD players and dealer add-ons for satellite radio ($480), 10 hp less than the Accord 4 cyl, and slightly worse mileage.
The MS6, which I wish I could've bought, was just out of my price range.
The MS6 was my first choice, the Mazda6 V6 was my second choice, and I wound up with a 4 cyl Accord EX stick, which wasn't really even on the list.
The vast majority of Americans do not want a manual.
I think this is true, but those same Americans that don't want an stick are choosing their bland midsize sedan based primarily on price, so without features that differentiate them in the marketplace (AWD - Subaru, 4 cyl power- Honda, etc) there is little to separate them from being a commodity. I think if you make a sport sedan, you would want enthusiasts to buy it.
I like my Mazda6, but it is not really a "sports sedan" is it? (well, mine clearly is not...but even if it were a V6 manual, would it be?)
When I wanted another manual transmission minivan in 1997, I could not find one. Does that mean that the manufacturers were making a mistake by choosing to not build them?
What is that about air filters... :confuse:
BTW, I think in 2006 and 2007 the MS6 was selling for $23-24K...isn't that about the same as an Accord EX?
I don't think there is anything particularly un-sporty about even the base Mazda6, and I think sportiness isn't always about power (the E36 3-series is considered sporty and power-wise it was about the same as my Contour). The problem with Mazda's 4 banger is its the least powerful in its class. Supposedly that will be corrected in the future with respect to both power and economy.
When I wanted another manual transmission minivan in 1997, I could not find one. Does that mean that the manufacturers were making a mistake by choosing to not build them?
Eh, yeah, I do think they were making a mistake by not building one. If it would've increased the satisfaction of the buyer, eh they need all the help they can get. And if one company did it, it would've differentiated them in the market. They could have a strip-o model undercutting the prices of their competitors and they could have a psuedo-sport model that was actually a little sporty. The Reliant came in a stick, the Ranger came in a stick, the Accord comes in a stick, as does the Camry. They all could've done it. The 90s MPV was a stick at one point IIRC, as was the Caravan, Aerostar and Previa.
The trick isn't going to be making 1 size fit most (Toyota) the trick is going to be giving people what they actually want and making money at it (BMW).
BTW, I think in 2006 and 2007 the MS6 was selling for $23-24K...isn't that about the same as an Accord EX?
When they were dumping the '07s last summer, I got my Accord EX for 19k, but its a 4 cylinder/5speed. It was a little bit of the luck of the draw as I think had it been on the lot, an EX-L would've been about the same price.
I'm sure Toyota stockholders wouldn't agree with you. My Mazda6 handles a lot better than most other mid-sizers but I would not call it a sport sedan. As far as people buying midsizers because they're cheap, I read on the Honda Accord forum all the time where people are spending $27-28000 on new Accords. That isn't exactly cheap in my mind. If Mazda was selling tons of the V6 "6" with stick I'm sure they would (or will as we aren't totally sure they won't) continue to offer it.
As far as BMW offering a real sports sedan and what the enthusiust want, try their new BMW 1 which is now thier entry vehicle and which when totally optioned out can MSRP for about $50k. Just saw a review on it in the Chicago Tribune and was shocked at the price.
The 5-speed manual Mazda6's sold really well in the 4-cyl in all years, and in 2003-2005 sold well in the V6. As for resale, the 5-speed is desired from what I see. When I go to auctions, the 5-speed manuals go for just as much as the autos. When I see a Mazda6 manual tranny come in for trade, I do not deduct for the 5-speed because it is desired.