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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    It is a glorified station wagon,

    image

    why would anyone care what it looks like?

    Regarding actual midsize sedans, looks like the Fusion is quite a deal right now...if you own something else there appears to be $4000 in rebates available...$1000 "conquest" rebate plus a $3000 general rebate. At least this is what edmunds shows in my area.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    It's a Ford. I wouldn't buy a Fusion at any price.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Regarding actual midsize sedans, looks like the Fusion is quite a deal right now...if you own something else there appears to be $4000 in rebates available...$1000 "conquest" rebate plus a $3000 general rebate. At least this is what edmunds shows in my area.

    I actually have 2 friends in negotiations for that deal now. One is dumping a colossal POS 90s ES300 (the dull part is the car's fault, the POS part isn't) to pick up a Fusion, and another buddy is dropping a 90s Accord. They both sound pretty geeked about SYNC, so I guess its doing its job. I was actually kind of bummed I was hoping the guy with the 90s Accord was going to buy my '07 so I could get something a bit more fun.

    I guess that is just what a few key features and a good blurb in CR gets you.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I got to take a nearly-new (500 miles) Milan Premier I4 on a long drive this week, courtesy of Hertz (literally "courtesy", it was free because they messed up my reservation). Tasteful white pearl color with black/tan leather, nice-looking alloys. I thought it was a very good highway cruiser--smooth and quiet; I felt the big bumps but they were muted. Fuel economy was pretty good. I was getting nearly 37 mpg by the trip computer when cruising around 65 mph on mostly level terrain, but that dropped during the trip due to stops, some urban driving, and more aggressive driving by my travel companion to 32 mpg overall for about 380 miles.

    Driving position was quite good, although I thought the upper back cushion stuck out a bit too much. The car had Sync but we didn't get to play with it as it was a business trip and we were talking most of the way. The car was rock-solid, not a hint of a squeak or rattle, and not much wind noise or tire noise. About the only gripes I have on the car are that there was a loud growl on acceleration, although I don't mind hearing a little engine noise in that case, and it was hard to open the trunk as there was no good place to grip the lid.

    With Milan I4 (AT with alloys) prices advertised at just over $15k (or $189/month 3-year lease with no money down) in my area, I think it's a very good buy.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I was hoping the guy with the 90s Accord was going to buy my '07 so I could get something a bit more fun.

    It might not be more fun, but with the $4,000 rebate, maybe the Ford dealer would be paying you to trade your Accord for a Fusion.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,253
    i have had a fusion sel awd for a little over a month.
    not a perfect car, but it has was i was looking for.
    awd, moonroof, and i can fit in the back seat. i'm a little over 6ft in height.
    the v6 is raspy when it first starts up. but i don't notice it once it warms up.
    last winter i noticed while driving my suv in a couple of snow storms, the only cars i saw moving were an mkz and a milan.
    i figure the fusion may not be the best at anything, but is a winner overall.
    i call it my "poor man's subaru". :P
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • oldcemoldcem Member Posts: 309
    I was shopping for a midsize two weeks ago to replace my business use car. Ended up with a Saturn Aura XE 3.5. Saturn was running rebates and 0% finacing. In addition they were willing to put more money in my trade-in. I've put over 2K miles on the car and I'm impressed with it. Build quality seems quite good. In addition its got DSC, traction control, antilocks, a trip computer, Onstar, satelite radio, and automatic headlights, all as standard equipment. The low tech push rod 3.5 makes plenty of power, and, loafs along at 70 MPH at 2000 RPM. I'm getting 30+ MPG running the interstates. I considered the Fusion, but, it dropped out of contention after my test drives.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Speaking of my '07 Accord EX 5speed manual 4-banger, it did 411 mostly freeway miles (although some traffic and some "extra-legal" speeds) on 12.7 gallons of $3.43/gal BP 87 unleaded for 32.4 mpg. I think its size/power/fuel economy balance is its best feature.
    I have also realized my annoyance with the suspension is due at least partially to an underdamped condition when cornering. On a steady sweeping corner (like a cloverleaf ramp) the car gets an oscillation that is benign but disconcerting and annoying. I really feel like the car is $1500 away from being something fun; adding Bilstein dampers, maybe a slightly stiffer sway bar if its available, and some real tires/wheels would bring a big transformation, but I don't know if I want to put that into the car or just start with something different.
    I do like the way it holds the infant seat and allows seating in the outboard positions and I like the power/economy balance. Interior fit and finish is poor (the dash is a disaster), the EX wheel feels like 80s plastic (because it is) and the shifter throws are a bit long.
    The other side of things is I have been driving a lot of midsize sedans for work (Aura, Fusion, Malibu) lately, and none of them really feel much better. I probably should've gone with the Civic SI, a MS6, a GLI, or a TSX but those were all considerably more expensive.
    I guess that is just the way the compromises go in vehicle design. I also think that is why I like used vehicles, I feel more freedom to repair and upgrade the vehicle to meet my needs.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The TL sway bars, and HFP Suspension may be all you need to make your car what you want it to be. These are very common mods done to 7th gen Accords.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    I have a 2008 Malibu LS 4 cylinder for the rest of the weekend. It's a fleet model that has been decontented with no OnStar, XM or MP3/RDS radio.
    So far, I like the way it drives more than any of the other cars. It has sporty handling around curves like an Accord, but with a quiet, comfortable ride like Camry. Interior has no squeaks and rattles after driving it around town for several hours.

    The back seat is a bit tight, so rear tall passengers will have to maneuver their knees into the scooped space in the rear seat backs and there is no rear sear armrest. Foot room is also very tight. It's easy to get your feet tangled up in the seats and door openings when entering the rear seat or trying to slide across to exit out of the opposite rear door. The smaller rear seat is a disadvantage vs the Accord and Camry, but I don't plan to carry rear passengers more than for short drives a few days a month, so it isn't a deal killer. It isn't really that bad that they won't be able to live with it.
    I didn't like that the trunk lid barely cracks open when you use the remote, unlike many cars where the lid pops open several inches so it would be easier to open with your hands full.

    I think a 2009 Malibu 1LT with 6-speed automatic and the standard XM radio, OnStar navigation, MP3 playback and bluetooth will be a nice value for around $22K.

    I test drove a couple Honda Accords EX-Ls and I really wanted to like them because they have a big back seat and Honda resale value, but they both had annoying interior rattles that turned up within the short test drives.
    The general level of road noise is quite a bit more than the Camry and Malibu, but the rattles are the real problem.

    The Camry seems to be the closest to what I want since it has a nice, quiet ride and has resale and reliability in the same range as the Accord. It just doesn't handle or steer as well as either the Accord or Malibu. I could get a Camry SE, but then the rear seat doesn't fold and the body kit is over the top.
    I also don't really like the idea of buying a 2009 Camry when I know the 2010 is less than a year away and will be have some styling updates (at least a new grill and tail lights, maybe more) and new features. So, in less than a year I would have an old-looking car and maybe miss some great new improvements. Maybe it will get Toyota's new 2.7 liter engine that might have the same fuel economy with more power than the current 2.4 engine. This is certainly possible if they replace the 5-speed automatic the 4 cylinders now use with the Hybrid's CVT. The 4 cylinder Altimas currently use a CVT, so this isn't impossible or even unprecedented.

    A 2009 Hyundai Sonata GLS with an option package is a possibility only if incentives are increased so I can buy one cheaply enough to offset the low resale. I plan to change cars roughly every 5-7 years. I don't want a 2008 Sonata.

    I think the most likely car will be end up being a factory order Camry LE with VSC, JBL/bluetooth and alloy wheels. I will also consider a 2008/2009 Camry Hybrid if I decide I can live with the subcompact-sized trunk in the Hybrid.
    Next options would be the 2009 Malibu 1LT or 2009 Sonata for the right price.
    Least likely option will be a 2008 Accord LX-P if I can live with the road noise and if the LX-Ps don't rattle like the EX-Ls did,
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    Don't shortchange yourself and buy a car that's inferior in your mind but has better resale value compared to what you REALLY want. Buy what you prefer to DRIVE.

    Besides, nobody has ANY idea about the resale values of the Camry, Malibu, or Sonata in 5-7 years. Many can (and will) assume that the Camry will hold it's value better than the other two, but from all the problems I've heard about the current-gen Camrys, while hearing next to nothing about the Malibu, I wouldn't be so sure. You can also get a better out-the-door price on the Malibu and Sonata compared to the Camry, which would offset most (if not all) of the supposed lower resale value. In 5-7 years, why not try to sell it yourself? It'll make a great used car if it's taken care of (which I'm sure you will), and you'll get more of your $$$ back.

    Most of all, buy what you prefer to drive, and can better enjoy (and not just tolerate) on a day-to-day basis.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    I don't think I'll prefer the Sonata of over the others. I may like it about the same as a Camry and then I might as well just get the Camry unless I can save a lot of money over 5 years with the Sonata.
    The invoice of a Sonata GLS automatic with option package A (power seat, steering wheel controls, automatic headlamps) plus bluetooth is $20066. With $1000 rebate that would still be $19066. A 2009 Camry LE with alloy wheels, bluetoo and VSC would have an invoice of $21,208 and no rebate. About $2100 difference. You don't have XM on the Camry, but you get a more powerful stereo with the bluetooth fully integrated. Currently KBB shows about $3500-$4000 more trade-in value on a 5 year old Camry LE than a Sonata with the same mileage and condition, so the Sonata will need bigger incentives than only $1000 for it to be worth it to me even if the resale difference narrows somewhat with this newer Sonata. The only advantage I can see for the Sonata is factory XM radio, longer factory warranty and not having to wait 8 weeks to order a Camry LE with VSC
    .
    I don't know what the pricing will be on the 2009 Malibu 1LT with 6-seed and bluetooth. Pricing should be out in a month or two. The Malibu 1LT would have the extra conveniences of remote starter and the 110V outlet.

    The Camry's and 2009 Malibu's bluetooth are fully integrated with the stereo and steering wheel controls which I prefer over the Sonata's and Accord LX-Ps bluetooth that require to manually mute the stereo and then take a hand off the wheel to answer and end calls. You only get a fully integrated bluetooth on Accords with factory nav.

    The Malibu and Sonata have standard XM radio and the Malibu also includes one free year of OnStar with Turn By Turn Navigation.
    Malibu, Sonata with option package and Camry have fully automatic headlights (that turn on when when it gets dark.) Accord only has auto-off headlights.
    Malibu has the smallest trunk lid opening by far, so some items won't fit through the opening even if the trunk is large enough for it to fit otherwise.
    All except the Malibu have very roomy rear seats All except the Malibu have 8-way power driver seats. The Malibu has optional 6-way power with manual backrest unless you get the top trim LTZ.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There is no way you will "save a lot of money over 5 years" with the Sonata, even when rebates increase on the 2009s. The market is pretty smart. Money doesn't simply come out of nowhere. One of the biggest reasons the Camry has an advantage over the Sonata in resale value is that the Camry costs more up front. The Sonata has historically had big discounts and rebates, so those are taken into account when calculating resale values. At best you'll save a little money over five years with the Sonata, but more likely it will be close to a wash with the other cars you are considering, except maybe the Malibu since there are no rebates on it and resale value of the new design is an unknown.

    So my advice is, buy the car you think you'll like driving the most for the next 5-7 years. That's a long time to live with a car. After those 5-7 years, purchase price and resale will even out, especially if you invest the money you save buying the Sonata. That has been my experience owning two Hyundais over the past 7-1/2 years and comparing their depreciation with those of the comparable Hondas, which have historically high resale values. But if you get the Sonata, it would be wise to wait a few months until the rebates ramp up on the 2009s. That should not be a problem for you since you'd have to wait until late this year to get a 2009 Malibu or early next year to get the Camry you really want, a 2010 model.

    Another thing to consider is that the Mazda6 will be redone this fall, and it wil be the newest design in the mid-sized class when it debuts, so it might bear waiting for if you want the "latest and greatest", which it seems you do (ala 2010 Camry).
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    I would probably be more likely to get the Sonata if I were to get a more loaded model with leather and nav. I think the price gap between it and a Camry gets wider on higher end models. A Sonata Limited with nav and bluetooth should be several thousand less than a 2009 Camry XLE with leather, seat heaters, VSC and factory navigation.
    If I get a Camry XLE, I would lose the folding rear seat, but if I was going to take the time to factory order one anyway, I could order an XLE with nav and skip ordering the optional heated leather seats.
    The price of a 4 cylinder XLE with nav, stability control and the standard cloth seats is now closer to the Sonata Limited with nav. I would give up the leather that I don't like on blazing hot summer days anyway, so it isn't much of a sacrifice.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I strongly agree with the other comments about getting what you want. Personally, I would hate to have my second choice of anything over a 5-7 year period, especially if the 1st choice was available, but only a few dollars more.

    5-7 years is a long time in the life of an automobile, and many things can change between now and then. Frankly,if gasoline hits $6-8 per gallon, the value of any current automobile available today will be in the dumper.

    So, get what really excites you, assuming you have the cash to pay for it!
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    The resale of these 4 cylinder cars shouldn't be a problem as gas prices go up.
    I would expect gas-guzzling SUVs will continue to lose value and popularity and many people will downsize from V6 and V8 cars and trucks down to 4 cylinder models.
    Some people driving midsize cars might downsize to compacts and subcompacts, but there are still alot of people who going from a 14 mpg SUV to a 25 mpg mid-sized sedan will be be more likely than them dropping all the way down to a Civic or Yaris.

    I'm considering the Camry Hybid even with its tiny trunk (at least the rear seats fold down and provide a small pass-through unlike the Altima Hybrid) and I could easily average over 35 mpg with that, but then after 7 years the resale might not be very good because the second owner may be scared of owning it after the 8 year battery warranty expires. They'll probably look past that if gas is over $5/$6 a gallon though and it would still have 1 year left on that warranty anyway and the buyer should feel lucky to have a warranty of any kind on a 7 year old used car.

    In 7 years, there will be better and a wider selection of hybrids as well as many more diesel cars available if gas prices keep going up at the current rate.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    If you'd like a mid-sized hybrid but want a bigger trunk than the Camry has, maybe consider the Prius, which has really good rear leg room for two adults plus a much bigger and more versatile cargo area than the Camry Hybrid. And it costs less than the Camry Hybrid and gets better fuel economy.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    The Prius's drivers seat was uncomfortable and doesn't have much adjustment. The seat bottom has no tilt ot height adjustment, not even a manual hand operated lever.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Besides, nobody has ANY idea about the resale values of the Camry, Malibu, or Sonata in 5-7 years.

    Good point.

    As a matter of fact, since there are soooo many used Camrys out in the used car market right now, that is effecting the wholesale/trade value of the car. They are a dime a dozen. Right now at the auctions, they are not going for much over book, compared to what they used to do. This by no means implies that the resale is not great. The Camry still has a great resale value. You cannot forget, a car in only worth what someone is willing to pay!, not what a web site says it's worth!!
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    Here is a video of the Malibu LS.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=781RajEcM4E

    I like it the most so far, but the Camry is close. I'll probably check out the 2009 Sonata GLS before making a decision.
    There are also a few other cars (Altima, Sentra, Civic) that I may consider if I hear that they'll add VSC for 2009.

    Dealers should be able to take orders for 2009 Malibus in just a few more weeks. Maybe before the end of this month.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Are you going to wait to get the 2009 Malibu until there are larger discounts/rebates, so the financial picture after 5-7 years will be more comparable to that of the Accord? That seemed to be an important part of your buying decision.

    Civic is adding VSC for 2009, as an option at least.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    It depends on how much more I like it than the others. If I like it much better, I won't wait that long. There might be another $1000 conquest rebate coming on the 2009s after the 2008s are gone since the vast majority of Malibu buyers are current GM vehicle owners.

    If I keep it for 7 years instead of 5, the resale difference will be less.
    If they don't overproduce them and try to force sales increases with big rebates, then the resale may be better than expected.
    Maybe they should just accept the fact that this car will not sell 400K a year like a Camry or Accord and not dump them on the market with $3000 rebates like Hyundai would do and what they did with the old Malibu and fleet sales.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The IIHS recently released a report on crash tests on several mid-sized sedans. The good news was that they all got a "Good" score for frontal impact, and all but the Optima got a "Good" on the side impact test. The Optima got "Acceptable" on the side test because there is the possibility of a fractured pelvis for the driver. The bad news is that only the Optima got "Good" for rear impact, only two (Avenger and Sebring) scored "Acceptable", and the rest scored "Marginal" or "Poor" on rear impact. Which is surprising since it's not that big a deal anymore to design seats and head restraints that protect necks in rear-end crashes.

    http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr041008.html
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    With the recent strikes affecting production of the Malibu, the odds that it won't be overproduced in the near future look pretty good. And GM still has the Malibu Classic to sell to fleets--until that model is retired anyway.

    Maybe when the new Malibu reaches the end of its life (or becomes the next "Malibu Classic"), there will be big rebates on it also. It's a brand-new model now, so no need to ramp up the rebates just yet. I'm seeing discounting in my local area, though.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Civic is adding VSC for 2009, as an option at least.

    Took 'em long enough. The Elantra beat them by a year. Now maybe a Civic is worth considering when I buy this fall.

    Used to be Honda was ahead of the game...how'd they let Hyundai get an edge on them?
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Member Posts: 936
    What is VSC?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Used to be Honda was ahead of the game...how'd they let Hyundai get an edge on them?

    Mazda offered stability control in the Mazda3 two years before the Civic. However, there still is no DSC in the 2008 Mazda6 :confuse: Apparently, the new 09 Mazda6 will have it.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    VSC: Vehicle Stability Control
    DSC: Dynamic Stability Control

    Many mfgrs call "stability control" many different things. Those are two acronyms that mean the same thing.
  • targettuningtargettuning Member Posts: 1,371
    How did Honda let Hyundai get the edge? By producing one of the most expensive "small" (now medium sized) cars in the class with the least amount of standard equipment as compaired to the Elantra. By that I mean beyond the obligatory power windows (although the DX didn't even have that), steering, and brakes the Civic doesn't have stability control, heated outside mirrors, traction control, XM or Sirius radio (except bundled with the expensive in dash nav. or a dealer installed package) fog lamps (except as a dealer installed option), multi-function trip computer, (on Elantra SE) heated front seats (on Elantra SE with an option package) and probably a few more things I overlooked. Hyundai has some these items on the cheapest model, most of the others standard on their SE model and the rest at least optional.
  • oceana143oceana143 Member Posts: 38
    I like both the Malibu and Altima with a slight edge to the Altima for styling. Does anyone know if the 4 cylinder Altima will have stability control for 2009? Not having it is a deal breaker for me.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I'd prefer to see the 4-cyl with stability control. it's be great with it...they've got such torquey engines that their CVTs can drop the cruise RPMs down to 2000 or below sometimes, even at highway speeds. Good for fuel economy. ;)

    Not having ESC is a deal-breaker for me. Sometimes I get stuck driving in garbage, and being in it for an hour or more doesn't fill me with confidence...
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Forget it, the Civic DX, you don't even get a radio...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Did you see that GM announced the 2008 Malibu LTZ will be available with the I4 and 6AT? So now you won't have to wait as long to get a Malibu with that powertrain, if that is the way you go. Starting price is over $26k though...
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    I knew about the LTZ coming out now, but I still would get a 2009 anyway because factory bluetooth doesn't start until 2009 models. The 2009s should be at dealers by the end of June and I'm not in a huge hurry. I might even wait another 6 months to see what the updated 2010 Camrys and Fusions look like since those could be out very early in 2009.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Isn't the Fusion going to be updated for 2009 (this fall)? It will be 3 years old then.

    Why do you think 2009 Malibus will be at dealers in June, when the 2008s didn't appear until last November? If 2009s will be available in June, I wonder why GM went to the trouble of just now introducing a new powertrain for the LTZ for the 2008 MY--which ends in less than two months?
  • karsickkarsick Member Posts: 312
    My guess is that GM is trying to squeeze 1 or 2 more mpg's out of the car, since I'd guess that's the first spec people want to know about when car shopping now. :confuse:

    I recall in the 70's that the MPG ratings figured very prominently in most car ads (and probably went a long way in influencing all my car buying decisions since, regardless of fuel prices)
  • karsickkarsick Member Posts: 312
    Would you consider a fuel-efficient 30-40mpg, unibody FWD, four-door with hatch, 4cyl (gas or turbodiesel, auto or manual) vehicle that's under 3500lbs, with class-leading passenger room, styled by Peter Horbury of recent Volvo fame?

    What if it came with a long wheelbase option with seating for 8, yet was shorter than most midsizers?

    I'm referring to the Ford Tourneo Connect, a vehicle I fell in love with during a visit to England. It's sold primarily as a commercial vehicle in Europe, but I really believe its no-nonsense utilitarian 'style' would have LOTS of appeal stateside. Think of it as a modern-day VW Microbus, with none of the silly sporty/luxo pretense we get from any current vehicle here.

    Ford.... stop it with the overweight 4wd V6 slushbox 16mpg crossovers you love so much, and get this thing federalized! ;)

    link:
    http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/tourneoconnect07/-/-/-/-/-/-

    I'd take a lonnnng look at this if I was in the market for a traditional midsize car today.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    They delayed the Fusion update. Now it's going to be a 2010 model, but may be a very early 2010 model that could be out in January.
    GM is almost done taking orders on 2008 Malibus. They should start taking orders on 2009s by the end of the month and start building 2009s sometime in June. So the very first 2009s could hit the lots before the end of June or else July.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The 2010 Fusion rolls off the line in December, on sale in January. It should be at the LA Auto Show. New 2.5L I4, hybrid, 6 speed trannies, new front end, new interior. ESC added for 2009. More power and better mileage from the V6 but it's not clear if it will be a 240 hp 3.0L, the standard 265 hp 3.5L or both.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Well, FoMoCo's partner, Mazda, just released official pictures and engine/tranny choices for their Mazda6. It looks much better then the spy photos I must say. Mazda will be using their 3.7L V6 built in Japan with 273hp and 270tq and also using their newly developed 2.5L I4 with around 170hp. The I4 will get your choice of a 6-speed manual or 5-speed auto, and the V6 gets the 6 speed auto
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    excerpts from the news release

    all-new MAZDA6 sports sedan will launch later this year, with an expected on-sale date in late summer, 2008.

    the 2009 MAZDA6 was designed and engineered for the needs, wants and desires of the North American customer.

    (that doesn't sound so good to me)

    As on every Mazda, balance, dynamics and on-road feel ... will set the MAZDA6 apart from its competition.

    (that sounds better)
  • baggs32baggs32 Member Posts: 3,229
    Mazda will be using their 3.7L V6 built in Japan with 273hp and 270tq and also using their newly developed 2.5L I4 with around 170hp.

    Let's not get too hasty with those numbers yet. The power is assumed but we don't know that the engine will be built in Japan like the CX-9's. Ford has the capability to build the 3.7 here in Ohio. I'm not saying the aren't using the Japan built 3.7 but it would make more sense for them to use the one built here so keep costs down.

    One other thing I noticed which is a HUGE disappointment to me is the lack of a manual tranny for the V6 models. Those get ATX with sport shift only. You can still row your gears with the I4 though. Seeing as Mazda couldn't keep V6 models with MTX in stock when this car was first introduced 5 years ago I would have thought that drivetrain combo would have been a no-brainer. :confuse:
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    The official press release from Mazda only mentions the automatic with the V6, but specifically does NOT say that it's the ONLY transmission offered. Two different sources I've seen mention a 6-speed manual available with the V6 as well.

    I'll wait to see the car in the showroom with an options list.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    I have read from Mazda salespeople on these forums that the stick did not sell all that well in the midsize Mazda6(both I4 and V6)and that resale was a lot lower.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I believe it was also specifically stated that the manual V6 did not sell after a few enthusiasts initially bought them.

    The vast majority of Americans do not want a manual. Since only Americans feel there is a need for a V6 in a car such as this, I guess that is why no manual. With the 4 cyl, they can just use the manual that the rest of the world gets.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    The clips that hold the air filters on tend to break when you try to remove them. More annoying then anything else.

    I have tried twice (2005,2007) to get a Mazda6 V6/stick and both times been put on a waiting list (or offered the opportunity to take yellow or purple one on the lot). I was not so excited about the yellow '05 or the purple '07 so that didn't leave me with a whole lot of choices. They had a number of 4cyl/5speed base (VE?) models which at that point had single disc CD players and dealer add-ons for satellite radio ($480), 10 hp less than the Accord 4 cyl, and slightly worse mileage.

    The MS6, which I wish I could've bought, was just out of my price range.

    The MS6 was my first choice, the Mazda6 V6 was my second choice, and I wound up with a 4 cyl Accord EX stick, which wasn't really even on the list.

    The vast majority of Americans do not want a manual.

    I think this is true, but those same Americans that don't want an stick are choosing their bland midsize sedan based primarily on price, so without features that differentiate them in the marketplace (AWD - Subaru, 4 cyl power- Honda, etc) there is little to separate them from being a commodity. I think if you make a sport sedan, you would want enthusiasts to buy it.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I think if you make a sport sedan, you would want enthusiasts to buy it.

    I like my Mazda6, but it is not really a "sports sedan" is it? (well, mine clearly is not...but even if it were a V6 manual, would it be?)

    When I wanted another manual transmission minivan in 1997, I could not find one. Does that mean that the manufacturers were making a mistake by choosing to not build them?

    What is that about air filters... ;) :confuse:

    BTW, I think in 2006 and 2007 the MS6 was selling for $23-24K...isn't that about the same as an Accord EX?
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    I like my Mazda6, but it is not really a "sports sedan" is it? (well, mine clearly is not...but even if it were a V6 manual, would it be?)

    I don't think there is anything particularly un-sporty about even the base Mazda6, and I think sportiness isn't always about power (the E36 3-series is considered sporty and power-wise it was about the same as my Contour). The problem with Mazda's 4 banger is its the least powerful in its class. Supposedly that will be corrected in the future with respect to both power and economy.

    When I wanted another manual transmission minivan in 1997, I could not find one. Does that mean that the manufacturers were making a mistake by choosing to not build them?

    Eh, yeah, I do think they were making a mistake by not building one. If it would've increased the satisfaction of the buyer, eh they need all the help they can get. And if one company did it, it would've differentiated them in the market. They could have a strip-o model undercutting the prices of their competitors and they could have a psuedo-sport model that was actually a little sporty. The Reliant came in a stick, the Ranger came in a stick, the Accord comes in a stick, as does the Camry. They all could've done it. The 90s MPV was a stick at one point IIRC, as was the Caravan, Aerostar and Previa.

    The trick isn't going to be making 1 size fit most (Toyota) the trick is going to be giving people what they actually want and making money at it (BMW).

    BTW, I think in 2006 and 2007 the MS6 was selling for $23-24K...isn't that about the same as an Accord EX?

    When they were dumping the '07s last summer, I got my Accord EX for 19k, but its a 4 cylinder/5speed. It was a little bit of the luck of the draw as I think had it been on the lot, an EX-L would've been about the same price.
  • m6userm6user Member Posts: 3,181
    The trick isn't going to be making 1 size fit most (Toyota)

    I'm sure Toyota stockholders wouldn't agree with you. My Mazda6 handles a lot better than most other mid-sizers but I would not call it a sport sedan. As far as people buying midsizers because they're cheap, I read on the Honda Accord forum all the time where people are spending $27-28000 on new Accords. That isn't exactly cheap in my mind. If Mazda was selling tons of the V6 "6" with stick I'm sure they would (or will as we aren't totally sure they won't) continue to offer it.

    As far as BMW offering a real sports sedan and what the enthusiust want, try their new BMW 1 which is now thier entry vehicle and which when totally optioned out can MSRP for about $50k. Just saw a review on it in the Chicago Tribune and was shocked at the price.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    I have read from Mazda salespeople on these forums that the stick did not sell all that well in the midsize Mazda6(both I4 and V6)and that resale was a lot lower

    The 5-speed manual Mazda6's sold really well in the 4-cyl in all years, and in 2003-2005 sold well in the V6. As for resale, the 5-speed is desired from what I see. When I go to auctions, the 5-speed manuals go for just as much as the autos. When I see a Mazda6 manual tranny come in for trade, I do not deduct for the 5-speed because it is desired.
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