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2008 Minivans
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Comments
Let's see if they change any of the driving dynamics, that's a good point. It's already very quiet, so maybe they'll just try to tune it to be more sporty.
Answer: Too many American consumers are TOO STUPID to do any research. Believe it or not, some American consumers think European brand vehicles :lemon: are superior to American or Japanese brands.
My nephew got a VW Jetta AFTER I warned him that Volkswagens are unreliable and Volkswagen dealer service is usually incompetant. After his VW Jetta broke down on the freeway, he got a new Toyota Corolla, and feels the same way I do about Volkswagens :shades: .
Ohhh there's plenty of "legitimate complaints" to go around here....horror tales from Toyota, Honda and Chrysler owners. If one went by the comments on this board "Which One" would be thinking of just taking mass transit. Seeing that "Which One" hadn't driven other makes and just had a misperception, they owe it to themselves to SHOP, COMPARE and make an INFORMED decision. That would be my way not the highway.
I see plenty of people on here badmouthing a make because of a bad experience and it will forever cloud their thinking, they'll take it to their graves, whining and moaning... I've owned awesome domestics and crappy imports, but I looked at all minivans a few years back before deciding on my totally trouble free Grand Caravan.
All Chrysler minivan owners but one ( including Dodge and Plymouth minivans) are completely satisfied. That person got an ABUSED, used Plymouth Voyager.
I loved my 2002 Chrysler T&C LX that our daughter is now driving.
Jeez, how did I shoot you down? Are you taking my "whining and moaning" personally - if you are, that's your problem, not mine. I don't let my experiences color every future buying decision from here to enternity.....that's the difference between my opinion and someone with a bad experience who harps on it constantly. If for some reason you feel i'm referring specifically to you - get over it!!!
I say skip both the VW and Chrysler and buy a Toyota or Honda. You'll get a more reliable vehicle with the better "feeling" switches and finish you seem to like :P
I'm not saying everyone thinks that way, but to me the Chrysler minivans have more features than the Odyssey/Sienna, such as underfoot storage coolers, swivel seats w/table, individual DVD screens, lifetime powertrain warranty, and so for families with kids who take a lot of road trips, these things may be more valuable than a statistic that indicates that the Odyssey or Sienna is more reliable.
Could be the same when the VW comes out, especially for folks who just want to drive something different than their neighbor's Odyssey/Sienna
Note that the Sienna is not among the models with recent problems.
In the context of this thread, i.e. the Sienna being their only minivan, CR has rated Toyota vans as reliable all along, consistently, and still do.
The fact that 6 speed transmission and Tundra V8 are problematic have had no effect whatsoever on the Sienna, of course, since it never got those.
Actually, that CR rated some other Toyotas poorly sort of contradicts the claims of bias that some people make.
Any how, just wanted to point that out. Sienna is still CR's most reliable van, has been for years now.
Now to address the 2nd half of your sentence.
Indeed, reliability is one factor, but the Sienna still excels in many other ways:
* most HP, quickest acceleration
* most fuel efficient (despite being quickest, wow!)
* only AWD option
* only true 8 seater
* most cases of beer in the cargo area in any position!
That last one won me over.
I didn't choose the Sienna because of its reliability scores. But I'll take that, too.
The Sienna LE interior is much more attractive than the T&C LX or T&C Touring. :shades:
Well, I bought my van in May, before the new models were even available for sale.
I have since checked out the Town & Country at the DC Auto Show, and some of the interior materials disappointed me. The "leather" seats look like vinyl, and the material is shiny, plus the plastics aren't up to par, IMHO.
The swiveling seats are cool, but they're still too low to the ground and when they face the rear there isn't enough leg room for either row. They should move the 3rd row back - a lot. Like a whole foot back.
I like the idea of the 2 DVD screens, but we got a 12" aftermarket screen so those screens now seem tiny to us.
The MyGig is cool, but the Sienna is WMA/MP3 capable, so 6 CDs fit more songs than I have in my song library. No gain for me.
That plus we already have a Garmin GPS, which works fine. Just upgraded to a 200 widescreen for $199. Can't beat that for value.
I don't think for the $25 grand that I spent I'd get many of the features you have in mind. Even adding in the huge DVD screen and my GPS we spent just a hair over $26k.
No, REALLY???? Next you'll be saying the way they calculate resale value is flawed i.e...using MSRP not actual sale price, and not factoring in larger rebates on vehicles! Or maybe they lay out their magazine in a biased fashion i.e...mostly pics of imports on the cover and lead of articles!!! I've never heard of such slander!!
Your information is very outdated.
Toyota in fact extended the warranty to 7 years 100k miles on those.
Considering the vans affected were 2004-2006, owners should be covered for at least 3 more years, if not longer.
CR reflects that issue in their detailed scores for the 2004 model under "Body Hardware".
So you are 100% wrong, CR is not biased. They in fact identify that issue specifically, and report the problem objectively and accurately.
Bad, bad example. :P
It's not just this one example, it's a list of biases - some very visible, some subliminal?
The 2004 through 2007 Toyota Sienna Door Check Mounting Panel Warranty Enhancement is for ONLY 5 years or 100,000 miles....NOT 7 years or 100,000 miles. :sick:
This is stated in the Warranty Enhancement document we received for our 2006 Sienna on December 31, 2007.
A mere 2 year extension on this severe defect provides NO reassurance for us. We do NOT intend to keep the Sienna for 3 more years nor will it stay in our family because our daughter does NOT like our 2006 Sienna with 19,600 miles as well as her 1999 GC SE that now has 107,000 miles on it..(and she has gone on 4 long 1360 mile round trips in our Sienna with us). :shades:
Chrysler reliability problems are ancient history but Toyota and Honda are having reliability problems with recent models.
The Ody and Sienna have very nice things about them, Ody's handling and Sienna's power but they are not God's gift to the market and both of the companies reliability has been failing. I think the American maker will continue to make a comeback. Ford is even making some really reliable cars now like the Fusion. Time will tell.
failing just after warranty
That's still FALSE. Even a 2004 with a 5 year warranty will be covered until 2009. That can't be after warranty, period.
The 2nd claim:
Toyota's weld's failing CR does not mention this at all and still recommended them like no tomorrow
Also FALSE. As I pointed out, CR specifically includes that issue in the Body Hardware rating, with a big black dot. So CR reports this issue accurately, yet they are being falsely accused of a "not mention" that is in fact mentioned.
If you have a beef with CR, at least come up with something accurate.
To believe the original assertion only shows that the believer is 100% biased against CR, and wrong.
I think they're a great value and should not be ignored.
But ... all vans have their issues, for the Sedona/Entourage it's been an alignment issue with vibrations that sent one Edmunds member to court to win a Lemon Law suit. And won, by the way. About 6 people here on Edmunds reported having that issue, so it's fairly common.
Perhaps a couple of Edmunds members have door issues with the Sienna, but certainly not 6. Plus more Siennas are sold.
So the problem rate for the Sienna doors is still much lower than the alignment/vibration issues with the Korean vans.
It wasn't a deal killer for me, even still, given $19k would buy a pretty good basic van, and at that price I can forgive a lot.
Cheers and enjoy your van. If you're going to take a shot at CR - at least take the time to look at their ratings. I think that's a fair request.
Hmmm, what is your source?
I think you could be wrong after all.
My 2007 was not covered by that warranty extension, come to think of it. I wish it had been. Why not get a free warranty?
I'm pretty sure it was only 2004-2006 models.
Are you 100% sure about the 5 year limit?
Given you were wrong about the model years, I dunno...
Edit: hansienna: you are wrong about the model years, it's up until 2006, not 2007:
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/24/toyota-fixing-600-000-sienna-doors-but-its-no- - t-a-recall-mind-y/
So if you think about it, the only issue the two of you complain about doesn't even affect 2007-2008 vans. So buy a new Sienna and have no worries - there are no major issues to complain about! :shades:
Is it not true that Toyota extended the warranty because of the amount of customer complaints. This was not something they offered from the beginning and many customers were SOL paying large amounts of money to have this design flaw fixed. What happens when the failure happens after 5 years or 100k which I am sure for many it will? Consumer Reports has a bias towards Japanese vehicles. If you do not agree then this is your right.
Anyway the whole point, which you seemed to miss, is that Japanese quality is dropping and American manufactures is growing. This is good, I am very happy the American car makers are pulling it together, good for us all... Americans that is.
You are emotional. Your negative emotions and bias against CR have tainted your objectivity. You made conclusions without even LOOKING at CR's ratings. I mean, sheesh! C'mon? How lazy is that?
Your claims are entirely false, and spreaing myths like that is harmful to readers of this thread. They deserve to know the truth.
OK, perhaps I am passionate about the truth.
Better?
Continue.
Consumer Reports is unbiased and tells it like THEY see it. I have has issues with CR in the past based on their evaluations. Their Frequency of Repair charts are based on real world experience of owners such as myself.
Back to my other question. What happens when the door welds fail after the 5 years or 100k? Are the customers SOL? Obviously it is a design flaw and should it not be covered for as long as you own the vehicle? It is the same situation with the Ody's transmissions. Many customers are leaving Honda and swear they will never buy another because of forking out thousands for the new tranny which has the same design flaw. Anyway, I understand you love your CR. I do like most of what they say in contradiction to your sweeping statements of how biased I am against them. Personally, I have come to the conclusion that they rate Japanese vehicle higher then they should. If you do not agree just say so and don't pretend you are the presenter of "truth". You don't work for them or test drive and rate the vehicles yourself. I hardly think anyone qualifies you as authoritative on the subject.
By the way passion is an emotion... so hence emotional...
2004 THROUGH 2007 TOYOTA SIENNA DOOR CHECK
MOUNTING PANEL WARRANTY ENHANCEMENT
The letter inside reads:
"2004 THROUGH 2007 MODEL YEAR SIENNA FRONT DOOR CHECK MOUNTING PANEL WARRANTY ENHANCEMENT NOTIFICATION"
Is it impossible to understand the exact quote directly from the mailing I received from Toyota...or is Toyota LYING in the mailing sent to me? :sick:
ALL the information I have written is contained in the mailing I received with return address on envelope
Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc,
Owner Notification Processing Center
No General Correspondence
P.O. Box 710367, San Diego, CA 92171-0367
The address contained on the letter inside the envelope is:
Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.
19001 South Western Avenue
P.O. Box 2991
Torrance, CA 90509-2991
"Spanish translation on reverse side
Traduccion en espanol en el reverso
And on the reverse side is return address:
Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.
19001 South Western Avenue
P.O. Box 2991
Torrance, CA 90509-2991
Under the address the following is written in large, black letters:
NOTIFICACION SOBRE LA AMPLIACION DE LA GARANTIA DEL PANEL DE MONTAJE DE LA TRABA DE LA PUERTA DELANTERA PARA EL SIENNA, MODELOS 2004 A 2007
(except there are Spanish language accent marks that are not on my computer)
You must kneel at the alter of CR, stare at the little red dots and chant "ummmmm Japanese cars are great ummmmm" and you will find the inner peace you desire!!
Do we want to put the American automotive industry out of business and increase our debt? I mean we have already flooded the world with our dollars that have sank the value of it to new lows. Maybe it's times to look at what America has to offer again. You might be surprised at how good they are.
Toyota recalled more vehicles than it sold in the U.S. last year
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1753099/posts
The Mitsubishi Motors recall cover up is a corporate scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DeLarge/recall
I got me first CR survey after buying my 2005 Dodge Minivan....though I think it was because of my membership in CR (which my parents give me for xmas every year). I was the most difficult booklet to fill out, I started in good faith and after about page 4 said enough is enough! So my totally trouble free vehicle isn't represented for sure, but then, I don't need CR to feel good about my purchase.
The other things CR tests are definitely a matter of taste. I like my cushy, quiet, ultra smooth, soft steering Town and Country. The CR reviewers do not. They prefer the Japanese feel in their cars. I can't say one is better than the other -- its a matter of personal taste. I remember years ago CR reviewed fast food. They raved and raved about McDonalds chocolate shakes (not even milkshakes in those days). I found the older pre-real ice cream McDonalds shakes gross. To each his own.
In general you are better making your own inquiries and observations. I made a mistake a few years ago by buying a front loading washer. CR says that the front loading washing machines are better than their top loading counterparts. They say the front loader washers are easier on the clothes and put less wear and tear on the clothes because they don't have an agitator to pull, twist and wear on the clothes. Prior to purchasing I wish I listened to a friend who told me she was disappointed in her front loader because it did not clean the clothes as well as her older top loader. I did not listen. Now I find I have paid substantially more for a washer that does not clean the clothes very well. And I have never lost any clothes due to them being worn out by a washer. CR's observations were worthless.
My observations about the Kia's is that you get a lot for your money. They are too new and have too few miles on them for me to make any observations about reliability or design. There are several insecure minivan owners on these board who need to constantly reassure each other that they have not erred in their auto purchases. Be happy with your Kia and relax. CR can't possibly have any significant amount of data from which to draw any conclusions about your van. I spent yeara thinking my van was a POC until it kept racking up the miles problem free.
My Brother had a 2001 Plymouth minivan he bought new. He just traded it in this year for a 2006 Dodge minivan. Only problem he had in six years was a freeze plug and brakes needed replacing.
I have a 2005 Dodge GC. In 39 months, the only problem I have had, and it just started, is the rear hatch latch is sticking, not allowing the motor to lift the tailgate up. It doesn't happen all the time and I am going to put some graphite on it first before taking it in to see if that doesn't clear up the problem.
My Sister has a 2006 Chrysler minivan that has already made two round trips out here to Arizona, from Ohio ( over 8,000 miles) and has no problems with hers yet with over 35,000 miles on it.
My family wouldn't by these vans if they were junk and had a lot of problems. My Brother sure wouldn't buy another if he had a lot of problems with the first one.
Stow and go is a fantastic idea. Mine has been a work horse for me. From moving my daughter, to carrying electric wheel chairs and scooters for my Mom and other Sister. After three years, it still looks great. We own a Honda Civic, so it's not that I don't like foreign vehicles. I'm just telling it like it is.
http://www.carspace.com/marine2/Albums/marine2%27s%20Album/HPIM0133.JPG/page/pho- to.html#pic
If you check CR, you'll see they've withdrawn recommendations of Toyota products due to the problems you cited which they've seen documented in their surveys. Their surveys aren't perfect, but they're pretty good information, and frequently tend to be consistent with broader trends.
"My beef with CR is that they are making judgments about reliability and quality for new cars.
...
In general you are better making your own inquiries and observations.
I made a mistake a few years ago by buying a front loading washer. CR says that the front loading washing machines are better ... Prior to purchasing I wish I listened to a friend who told me she was disappointed in her front loader because it did not clean the clothes as well as her older top loader. I did not listen. Now I find I have paid substantially more for a washer that does not clean the clothes very well. ... CR's observations were worthless."
Ahh, it's wrong for CR to make judgments, but perfectly fine for you to? Fine for you to judge CR's reliability estimates on the basis of your personal experience with one front-load washer? I don't understand your logic here.
CR is one source for reliability information (there are others), and also for testing information. Scrutinize them as you would any source.
And now, back to minivans ...
How has the swivel-n-go worked out for those using it?
Thanks for stating this better than I could.
I never said I loved CR. I was playing Devil's Advocate when they were attacked and criticized of bias. The example given proved the opposite - CR in fact did rate the Body Hardware poorly for the 2004 Sienna.
The funny thing is that bogus claim ended up having the opposite effect from what was intended - it showed that CR was not biased, at least in this specific example - the door weld issue was reflected accurately in their scores.
As dbt put it, they "frequently tend to be consistent with broader trends".
Indeed.
The 600,000 vs. 6 comparison is absurd. Potential number of vans affected doesn't mean 600,000 were affected. They're just being covered if there is a problem. Have it inspected at 99k miles. If the problem has not appeared by then, it likely never will. This is just common sense.
As for the Entourage/Sedona vibration/shimmy issue, they've issued TSBs (who knows how many vans are covered), but the problem still has not been fixed for many Edmunds members. To me that is a bigger concern - it's unresolved.
Back to the van discussion - my 2007 wasn't included, nor were the 2008 models. So if you're shopping for a new van today, there are no major issues to be concerned about.
No van is perfect, of course not, nobody made that claim.
As this poster, like myself, has experienced similar observations of reality vs CR, I responded to him telling him not to worry about what CR says about his Kia - they don't know what they are talking about IMO. You are welcome to regard their judgments and let them influence your purchases but my post wasn't directed toward you. In general I believe people would be happier with their purchases if they used their own observations and asked real people they know who own the product how they like it. Some may disagree, it is their option to do so.
In general, it is hard to dispute somebodies experience and I think it is a mistake to do so with most issues in life. My front-loader washer poorer cleaning observations have been echoed by several women I know using several brands. I know what I see - clothes that look dirty even after washing on the super-cycle, pre-wash, stain-treat program that lasts 1:40 for 1 load. Wish I listened to people I know and trust instead of strangers.
Back to minivans. Don't have my swivel seat van yet so I can't comment.
http://www.hondatransmissionsettlement.com/php/pdf/caht1faq.pdf
that they had to acknowledge "issues". Unfortunately it is hard to know what to expect from an auto until they are tested out in the field for a few years. CR should be used for hindsight - not foresight.
I went to the store this morning and bought some Mr. Zip, extra fine graphite, and that seems to fix my latch problem on my rear hatch. So it's 39 months and counting with no problems to take it back to the dealer for.