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2008 Minivans

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Comments

  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    How many miles do you now have on your 39 month old GC SXT? What is your fuel economy?

    (My 2006 Sienna LE gets slightly better gas mileage than my 2002 T&C LX 3.3L got.) :shades:
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    What do you believe in, little green men? I owned almost nothing but American cars and minivans (4 American minivans from 1993 - 2005). Only one was was a POC and that one was a Chrysler product. The other Chrysler products I owned were also junk as was the 2008 Sebring I just drove for three days.

    You don't believe CR and you bash owners such as myself without knowing me or the FACTS. Every American mini I have owned: GM x 2 and Ford excepting the Dodge were excellent. I owned many American cars as well so why do you say I "bash" American vehicles? I state unemotional facts to try and help people avoid buying a new Chrysler rolling piece of junk. You get SO emotional and personal.

    Back off dude and let the information freely flow without insults, racial slurs and innuendo so people can make their own mind up on 2008 minivans.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    How many miles do you now have on your 39 month old GC SXT? What is your fuel economy?

    (My 2006 Sienna LE gets slightly better gas mileage than my 2002 T&C LX 3.3L got.)


    I have 42,000 on my 2005 and using a calculator and not the overhead computer, I get around 17 MPG city and the highest I got on a trip to California, from Arizona was 23.9mpg. Never have been able to go on a full tank without crossing mountains so not sure what I could get on flat land.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Looking at some of the details, dbt was on to something:

    For the Ody, CR gives them below average scores up until the 2003 model, any one want to guess what category?

    Transmissions.

    So not only does CR score these Japanese-brand vans poorly in those categories, they happen to be the ones you guys keep bringing up.

    Honestly, you should stop saying CR is biased, and jump on the CR bandwagon and complement them for accurately pointing out that these Japan-brand minivans are far from perfect! LOL
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    What do you believe in, little green men? I owned almost nothing but American cars and minivans (4 American minivans from 1993 - 2005). Only one was was a POC and that one was a Chrysler product. The other Chrysler products I owned were also junk as was the 2008 Sebring I just drove for three days.

    I doubt anyone on this board has own more Chrysler products than I have. Going all the way back to a used 41 Plymouth and a 48 Chrysler New Yorker. My last two were a 2001Dodge Dakota PU I traded for the 2005 minivan. We had a 1993 Eagle Vision we traded for our 2004 Honda Civic. The Eagle was one of the best cars we ever owned. The only ones we had any real problems with was a 1975 Plymouth and a 1954 Chrysler. I have also owned a Duster, New Yorker, Neon and Charger.

    I have the 2008 CR Buyers guide. If you look at yours, see if they have any blacks spots on the 2004-2006 Tundra and the 2004 -2006-7 Sequoia. Toyota has had a lot of problems with those, especially with the suspension's lower ball joints. But they don't show that in their latest addition. They don't tell about all the recalls on Toyotas and the recalls Toyota should have made on many of their models and didn't. Why? They have had time to update their scores on them, but haven't. Here Toyota has recalled in one year, more carsand trucks than they built. But you'd never know it looking at CR
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    As a matter of fact, in the 2008 CR Buyers Guide, they rate the 2008 Toyota Sequoia. as above average in dependability even though they have had troubles for at least six years with steering and ball joint problems. How do they know the 2008 will be any different than the 2002-2007's? Which they still do not recognize the problem. from 2004-2007
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Now again using the CR Buying Guide, (Rating the 2008 Models.) On page 149, they don't even list the Dodge/Chrysler minivans, under (Minivans) Why? Under (Wagons and Hatchbacks), on the same page, they list the Dodge Caliber, and say it is a new model under predicted reliability and new, under owner satisfaction. But they don't even list the best selling minivans on the market for 2008 under (Minivans)? And then say they aren't biased against American?

    I remember when I looked at CR after I bought my 2005. They had practly nothing good to say about it. Worse than average predictability. I haven't had it in the shop once in 38 months. Talked about how slow it was compared to Honda and Toyota although it was only about 1.8 seconds slower in the quarter mile than the Honda. They said the instrument panel was (busy) What the heck does that mean? There is nothing wrong with the instrument panel. Everything is laid out pretty easy to get at and simple. Not as nice looking as the Honda and Toyota, but (Busy)?
  • carcom2carcom2 Member Posts: 212
    For those that don't think your top load washer washes as well as a side loader, have you used the High Efficiency detergent recommended for the newer top loaders. Some manuf. are requiring it to not void out the warranty I've been told. The HE stuff works better for those HE machines. Our top loader cleans great.

    CR, wether sometimes biased or not, just like our opinions even when trying to be as objective as possible, doesn't always have info. matching our own experience. It's just another tool that you may or may not consider to make your decision. Use your brain. I've had much better experience with all 3 Dodge/Chrysler products we currently own compared to CR ratings. And like them better than the Ford/Mercury stuff of the past. When I've looked at CR "black dots" in some categories, they did not coincide with my actual experience at all. I have had no regrets at all buying these 3 - 2005 300C, 2002 Intrepid, 1997 Grand Caravan.

    Anyway, for all you complainer and also the optimists, seems like you should check out the Chrysler website accolades from Popular Mechanics, Popular Science and others:

    http://www.chrysler.com/en/2008/town_country/accolades/awards/
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    Once again personal experience/observation trumps CR. Just remember, opinion is like a rectum, everyone has one including CR and we posters to these boards.

    Having owned many minivans I qualify for having seven opinions (rectums?). Would I buy another VW or Chrysler? HECK NO! I am glad to see VW teaming up with Chrysler because the baby of that marriage will undoubtedly be the most black dotted model in CR's minivan history.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    As to that 2nd article, the issue is that public perception lags a few years behind reality.

    Many domestics have indeed improved, look at the CR ratings for the Fusion for instance. The public perception will catch up about 4-5 years from now.

    They still have the Taurus fresh in their memories.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Whoa, whoa, wait a second...

    Mitsubishi was the one hiding defects (not recalls). Not Toyota.

    You're talking about 2 different companies.

    I'll also point out that Mitsubishi was basically being controlled by Chrysler at the time. Though the hidden recalls were due to corruption at their headquarters in Japan, certainly not anything Chrysler did.

    I don't see recalls as a bad thing per se. A recall is a manufacturer taking reponsibility for a problem, and a problem that they have found a solution for.

    The hidden defects scandal is very, very different. Mitsubishi knew about patterns of problems and hid that knowledge, in fact did *not* recall those vehicles. A recall would have been the solution - but no, they chose not to recall them.

    So we should not say "hidden recall" at all, really.

    And for the record I don't trust Mitsubishi, in fact I've argued this issue with some Outlander owners in the crossovers thread. They pitch "Made in Japan" as a defacto advantage, and I disagree.

    The Sienna is built in Indiana, the Ody in the US/Canada, FWIW.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Once again personal experience/observation trumps CR. Just remember, opinion is like a rectum, everyone has one including CR and we posters to these boards.

    Having owned many minivans I qualify for having seven opinions (rectums?). Would I buy another VW or Chrysler? HECK NO! I am glad to see VW teaming up with Chrysler because the baby of that marriage will undoubtedly be the most black dotted model in CR's minivan history.

    Your right there. This may be my first minivan, also my sister's first and my brother's second. Between four of them, only a freeze plug had to be replaced. I think that's pretty good.

    Problem is, many Americans are still judging American quality to the stuff they were putting out in the 70's and early eighties. Things have changed. Chrysler had problems in the 1990's with trannies. Honda had problems with trannies in the early 2000's. Toyota had engine problems in the early 2000's. But all put out some pretty reliable stuff now. If they didn't we wouldn't buy them and brother wouldn't buy his second one, after owning the first for five years.
  • maryh3maryh3 Member Posts: 263
    Marine, I laugh on my way to the bank and don't let it phase me. I found 2 articles that sound like I could have written them.

    http://www.allpar.com/cr.html

    http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/consumer-reports-never-to-be-truted-ar4156- 9.html

    But we have to stop all this CR discussion as the moderator doesn't want this forum to overlap with their CR/JD Powers board.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The vans are not listed because they are new and had not yet been fully evaluated at that point.

    Also, the 4.0l V6 engine is new to the vans, though I believe it was used in the Pacifica. They may not have enough data, however.

    Plus the 6 speed transmission is new.

    They can't really forecast reliability for an entirely new powertrain, which seems fair.

    The vans are listed under the historical reliability ratings.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    CR should be used for hindsight - not foresight.

    Bingo, I think that statement pretty much nails it.

    Now, the exception to that rule, in my opinion, is when a certain powertrain combination has been in production for a while and has done historically well.

    For instance, Toyota's 5 speed automatic, code name U151E, has been used for years in many models and always scored well. I think it's fair to expect better than average reliability.

    Then look at Toyota's new 6 speed, code name U660E, which has been more problematic. It's used the V6 Camry, and indeed, the complaints we've heard in the real world are the reason CR dropped their recommended rating from the Camry V6 (V6 only, the 4 cyldiner and hybrid models still do well).

    Anyone care to guess which transmission is used in the 4 cylinder Camry? You guessed it, the older 5 speed. And yes, as you would expect, it's still reliable and still recommended by CR.

    Now, going back to the poing Mary made, hindsight tells us the U151E, which is still used in the Sienna to this day, has been and continues to be a reliable transmission. So this hindsight still tells you the Sienna's transmission is a good one.

    CR failed to predict reliability for the U660E, however. They recommended the Camry V6 without any historical data, and this bit them back. This is the "not foresight" part Mary mentioned.

    Even though Mary and I haven't agreed often in the past, I think she made the most valid point yet about CR.

    We should use CR's data wisely. Odds are, if the 4.0l V6 in the Pacifica proves to reliable, and the 6 speed automatic used in other vehicles prior to the Grand Caravan also score well, then the Grand Caravan will, too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    This guy is on a mission, and I like that he runs the site on his own, accepts only data from actual owners after verifying the VIN numbers show that the vehicles are for real:

    http://truedelta.com/latest_results.php?session_code=

    This is a small operation so he doesn't have enough data to rate a lot of vehicles, but he's building up his database.

    By the way, that allpar.com article actually recommends True Delta for reliability history over CR.

    Also, it's a real grass-roots effort. He goes to different forums and asks members there to register and start giving him input.

    Note the Sienna still scores extremely well. There isn't a lot of data for Dodge but the Grand Caracan scores better than average.

    Any how, another source if anyone's looking.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's good, but those aren't exactly the leaders in automotive publications.

    I'd be more impressed if it were Edmunds, Car & Driver, Road & Track, Autoweek, Automobile, etc.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    I think these two make much more sense when talking of quality and perception.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DeLarge/recall

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1753099/posts
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    In general, it is hard to dispute somebodies experience and I think it is a mistake to do so with most issues in life

    Dangerous logic in my opinion. For example, if your neighbor is killed because there car flipped over and they could crawl out of the car because they were tangled in their seatbelt and died, but if they weren't wearing a seatbelt they might have been able to crawl out and survive, so by your logic you'd stop wearing a seat belt because you have a personal experience where a seatbelt actually cause a death. So you're ignoring research over a single personal experience.

    Or you need routine surgery to save your life, but there's a small chance that you could die under the anesthetic, but the studies and research say it's unlikely. However your cousin died uner anesthetic for a minor surgery, so based on this personal experience you'll never go into anesthetic.

    That sort of logic is nonsense.

    If you want to live your life ignoring all reasearch and study and just live based on your personal experience that's up to you, but I just hope you have a lot of personal friends that are a good statistic sample of the population ;)

    BTW...I have a bosch front loading washer that will make your whites so white you'll think they're brand new and that's without using bleach!

    To get on the car topic...there's more to having a quality car than not having something break down after 150,000 miles. I don't want to drive a vehicle with poor handling, braking, driving dynamics, interior cheapness, etc...just because it will go 150,000 with zero problems. Personally I'd rather drive a minivan that has the driving dynamics of a car, with great interior quality and features, comfortable seats, good MPG, etc...and if it's to spend a couple more days in the shop than the previous car then that's okay, because the overall driving experience after years of driving a vehicle are more important than a few extra days in the shop.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    As to that 2nd article, the issue is that public perception lags a few years behind reality.

    Many domestics have indeed improved, look at the CR ratings for the Fusion for instance. The public perception will catch up about 4-5 years from now.

    They still have the Taurus fresh in their memories.

    That could be true. But when a manufacture that is supposed to be known for putting out the best quality of vehicles on the planet, is caught hiding recalls and still has more recalls than vehicles made in one year, I think says something about how much you can trust them. Here you have two Japanese companies hiding recalls, while trying to pretend that their vehicles are much better than anything America makes. That belief is ingrained into millions of people's mind. To the point they won't even try an American vehicle again. That hurts this country, because billions of dollars are being taken out of our economy and helping theirs. It's also helped cause the devaluation of our dollar and hurt us in the balance of trade. Not even counting the good paying jobs lost.
  • carcom2carcom2 Member Posts: 212
    For those of you that think the Chrysler Town & Country has a cheap looking inside but like most of the other things about it, have you seen the pics of the VW Routan based on the T&C? - seems like they've softened up the plasic, used padding on the door armrests, changed the dash, gave the suspension a "European feel", kept the storage in the floor in the second row, offer the power 3rd row seat, changed the front and rear ends, offer the dual DVD's w/ satelite TV, my gig. No Stow 'N Go or Swivel 'N Go available. Otherwise, many shared components from Chrysler. They're both made side by side in the same factory.

    I think the overall appearance "enhancements" is worth checking out.

    PRESS RELEASE

    VOLKSWAGEN UNVEILS ROUTAN AT CHICAGO AUTO SHOW
    European inspired design and driving dynamics highlight new minivan

    CHICAGO – Volkswagen of America today unveiled the Routan, an all new seven-passenger minivan. It delivers the best of both worlds: a vehicle that combines European sensibilities in design, fit and finish, and handling characteristics with market relevant features and outstanding value.

    The Routan is instantly recognizable as a member of the Volkswagen family, with its stylized front grille and exterior treatments. The interior enhancements create an environment that is visually pleasing, modern, and meticulously detailed. The high quality materials, beautiful textures and rich luxurious colors are combined with exacting tolerances and superb fit and finish. While pleasing and contemporary, the interior also follows the traditional Volkswagen design philosophy that form follows function.

    Second row captain's chairs offer an increased level of luxury and comfort while still providing the convenience of a traditional minivan, with over 32.7 cubic feet available behind the third row seats and a full 83 cubic feet is available behind the second row.

    The Routan will come standard with a 3.8L V6, offering 197 hp and 230 lb. ft. of torque when combined with the standard six-speed automatic transmission. A 4.0L V6 will be available rated at 251 hp and 259 lb. ft. of torque. Routan features European tuned suspension and steering optimized for handling and improved driving dynamics. Standard all-season traction control and ESP, brings safety and security to the Routan.

    The Routan comes with a host of unique features, including:

    • Conversation Mirror
    • Rear seat entertainment system with two 9 inch screens for second and third row, wireless headsets, and remote control
    • Dual power sliding doors with power windows
    • Touch screen navigation with twenty meg hard drive
    • Power lift gate with flood lamp
    • Thirteen cup holders

    Volkswagen delivers a competitively priced entry into this high volume segment with prices starting below $25,000. The Routan will be built in an already existing facility in Windsor, Ontario.

    With Routan, Volkswagen dealers add a vehicle that will provide additional, incremental growth in the market. A distinctly designed minivan at an attractive price point will broaden the brand portfolio, while providing a roomy alternative to existing Volkswagen owners.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    When you hide defects, or don't have a recall when you know there is a problem, you cost the consumer a lot of money.Because he will usually have to pay for that repair out of his own pocket.

    When you advertise that your vehicle is very dependable, when it is not, your hurting the consumer and the American auto companies. Your hurting America.

    The Sienna is built in Indiana, the Ody in the US/Canada, FWIW.

    Very true. But there is about a $3,00.00 plus, price advantage they have over an American company and much of their profit goes back to Japan. It does not stay here and help create more jobs for Americans.

    Did you hear about the Toyota senior manager saying that, we used to do quit recalls called, service campaigns' to deal with defects. (www.2006toyotarecalls.com)

    Do you want to bet that many were charged for that fix unless they really put up a gripe about it? If they didn't bring it out that it was a problem and should of had a recall on it, don't think Toyota was going to come out and admit it. No, you yell your head off and Toyota will pretend it's just a bad part you got put on your vehicle and out of the goodness of their heart, they'll fix it for you. Then you come away and think, man that was nice of them to do that. If it were an American company that came strait out and recalled it, people would say, another recall on these American junks. The Japanese cars don't have all of these.
  • jipsterjipster Member Posts: 6,244
    Egads, what were they thinking when they designed the exterior of the new generation minivan. It has the looks and appearances of a Borg spaceship... like a giant cube. The previous generation was much more attractive and sporty looking.
    2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
  • maryh3maryh3 Member Posts: 263
    The HE stuff works better for those HE machines. Our top loader cleans great.

    I'll bet your top loader does clean better than my front loader. At first me and my other friends who likewise, bought front loaders because they were supposed to be the "cat's meow" blamed the HE detergents for our poorly cleaned clothes. We said "The better detergents like Tide with Bleach are not available in HE". But time, experience and experimentation have made me conclude that clothes simply need more soap and water to get cleaner. These front loaders use so little water and the HE detergent doesn't foam to give a nice soapy water for the clothes to soak in. When your top loader breaks - buy another. I can't blame CR entirely for my choice - I liked the way the front loaders look so I saw what I wanted to see. Perhaps CR did the same. Their recommendations were based upon irrelevant facts -- like an agitator putting wear on clothes. How often have you actually had to throw clothes out due to washer wear? I throw more out due to poor cleaning and stains now!! But the front loaders do look nicer...............
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota's case was very different than Mitsubishi's.

    First of all, they sent a letter to all affected owners. That's not silent, nor is it hidden. Every owner was notified. hansienns can confirm that - he even got one of those letters.

    Nothing hidden or silent about it.

    Even owners that were not affected were still notified. So it's not just the ones that paid for repairs. Those who did pay were reimbursed.

    Mitsubishi's case was completely different. They hid defects until the government intervened. There was corruption at the highest levels, telling subordinates to lie about known defects, even go out of their way to cover them up.

    Sorry, but that is night-and-day different.
  • maryh3maryh3 Member Posts: 263
    For example, if your neighbor is killed because there car flipped over and they could crawl out of the car because they were tangled in their seatbelt and died, but if they weren't wearing a seatbelt they might have been able to crawl out and survive, so by your logic you'd stop wearing a seat belt because you have a personal experience where a seatbelt actually cause a death. So you're ignoring research over a single personal experience.

    "Statistics are like a bikini -- what they reveal is suggestive; what they conceal is vital" -- Aaron Levenstein

    "Use your brain" -- Carcom2

    You are assuming that the wearing of a seat belt IS safer than not. Why is that? Have you seen the study? Do you know how many people actually are killed because they are tangled in a seat belt? IF I did know of somebody this happened to, I definitely would look into the stats, quality of the study, sample size, and do a lot of investigating on my own. However, I only know 3 people who were killed in accidents -- all 3 were driving SUV's, rolled them, were not wearing seat belts, so they were thrown from their cars and killed. I do not of anyone killed because they were caught in a seat belt. Certainly it is possible but my observation and experience tells me seat belts are safer than not in case of accidents.

    Or you need routine surgery to save your life, but there's a small chance that you could die under the anesthetic, but the studies and research say it's unlikely. However your cousin died uner anesthetic for a minor surgery, so based on this personal experience you'll never go into anesthetic.

    I'd consider the alternatives and research the stats. Can I do without the breast implants? Can I do without the removal of the tumor? Are there non-invasive procedures available? How does the longevity associated with the procedures compare?

    I'd consider the possible motivations others have for suggesting my surgery. Physicians make more money doing a By-Pass than angioplasty. Does the physician own stock in a drug or stent company? Does my insurance company prefer angioplasty because it is done out-patient and cheaper than a few days stay at a hospital necessary for a By-Pass.

    I'd rely on my experience and remember that what "they" say today often differs from "they" say tomorrow. Years ago By-Pass surgery was considered great even though there has never been any study which showed that it extended a patients life http://www.antiaginglifeextension.com/ghsplus/bypasssurgery.asp
    Angioplasty then became the cat's meow. But over time they changed and said that arteries opened with angioplasty tended to occlude faster than those which were by-passed. Then stents became the cat's meow. Now they are saying they aren't that great, don't last, and some have been pulled by the FDA.

    Conclusion -- nobody knows the future and knows a product until years down the road and lots of data is available. Whether I got surgery or not would definitely be based upon talking to people I know and trust. Researching. Asking around. Looking at the studies, conclusions and rebuttals associated with them. And most importantly - I'd use my brain using studies, experience, data, personal observations etc. to form my own conclusion.

    I have a bosch front loading washer that will make your whites so white you'll think they're brand new and that's without using bleach!

    I think I'll conduct my own survey here. Admittedly I have a Maytag, and all my other friends complaining have Whirlpools and Kenmore (made my Whirlpool). When I bought a few years ago Bosch was having problems with the spin cycle vibrating and walking on the floor. "They" were recommending that they only be used if you had a basement floor and solid foundation for them to sit upon. I have a main floor laundry so I passed. Your claims, though interesting, will be considered, but I will more likely survey people I know who own one. I know them and can judge if their observations are honest, knowledgable, biased etc. Some people can't admit to making a mistake. Some have no basis for comparison. Some like anything and don't have messy kids who stain clothes. That said, if I buy another I'll certainly look into a Bosch hoping it cleans better than mine and better than a top loader. But I certainly would ask owners I respect and put more faith in them than CR next time.

    To get on the car topic...there's more to having a quality car than not having something break down after 150,000 miles.

    Different strokes for different folks. What you like may not be what I like. If I were CR making a review I'd say "If you want a tight steering vehicle - Buy an Odyssey If you like a smooth, quiet, cushy riding vehicle -- Buy a Chrysler. If you want a powerful, quick engine buy a Sienna. I can't recommend somebody to have my tastes. We won't know reliability for a few years. Come to us in a few years to see what you should have bought."
  • maryh3maryh3 Member Posts: 263
    Or you need routine surgery to save your life

    Actually I'd probably die because I was still collecting data, doing research, watching studies, making observations etc. Making good judgments sometimes takes too much time and we pay the price for being too careful!!
  • carcom2carcom2 Member Posts: 212
    http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=71840da3-223f-4621-9593-6- - 01b8a2bde33&k=54159
  • carcom2carcom2 Member Posts: 212
    Here are some pics:

    http://www.vwroutanminivan.com/routan/

    The black one does show chrome mirrors & handles.

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=6436
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Although CR is the WORST, most biased against Chrysler-Ford-GM, I don't have much more confidence in the vehicle reviews by Edmunds...even though Edmunds graciously hosts CarSpace.

    Neither CR or Edmunds has identified the excessive glare caused by the poorly designed instrument cluster and dash center stack of the current Sienna LE, XLE, and Limited. :shades:
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    I agree that the 2007 Chrysler T&C was more sporty looking with more attractive exterior and interior styling.

    I think the Volkswagen interior is MORE attractive than either the Chrysler T&C or Dodge GC. (I do NOT like the fake wood of the T&C and the instrument cluster of the GC). However, I think the 2008 GC is the MOST attractive of the 3 since I do NOT like the tail lights of the VW Routan or the Grille of the T&C as well as those of the GC.

    I would like to see the 2nd and 3rd row seats in the VW Routan since I am not a fan of either Swivel 'N Go or Stow 'N Go and preferred the 2nd row Quads and 50/50 split Fold and Tumble of my 2002 T&C LX. :shades:
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Toyota's case was very different than Mitsubishi's.

    First of all, they sent a letter to all affected owners. That's not silent, nor is it hidden. Every owner was notified. hansienns can confirm that - he even got one of those letters.

    Nothing hidden or silent about it.


    Even if they sent a letter, they are still trying to hide the recalls from the general public, by not going public with it like the others do. I 'm sure most Americans don't have any idea that Toyota is having the problems they are having now. Most still believe Toyotas don't have the kind of quality problems American cars have had. I know I was shocked reading about it. After you know, you can find several articles of it on the Internet. But it sure hasn't made headlines in the papers or on television as have American products when defects and recalls come out about them. They are trying to protect an image they no longer deserve.
  • maryh3maryh3 Member Posts: 263
    From your referenced article at:
    http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=71840da3-223f-4621-9593-6- - - 01b8a2bde33&k=54159

    The Specs

    - Engine: 4.0-L V-6 SOHC

    - Horsepower: 251 at 6,000 r.p.m.

    - Torque: 259 ft.-lbs. at 4,200 r.p.m.

    - Wheelbase: 3,078 mm

    - Overall length: 5,144 mm

    - Curb weight: 2,096 kg

    - Base price: $42,895

    - Price as tested: $49,370 (incl. $625 flexible seating, $600 tow package, $1,575 entertainment package, $1,075 sunroof, $1,150 MyGIG multimedia

    Why is this so expensive? Is that how much tarriffs add to the price in Canada? That is quite a bit more than they are in the US.
  • bobber1bobber1 Member Posts: 217
    No it's not the exchange rate. The US to Canadian dollar are trading almost equal value. As a matter of fact the Canadian should be stronger.

    That's an expensive van.
  • artgpoartgpo Member Posts: 483
    Do a search concerning the Routan and you will find that a former DCX executive hired by VW (no longer a VW employee) was the driving force behind this stopgap van. The rumor at VW is that this van will have a very short sales life and a true VW designed and built model might be coming soon after. I think I read this on detnews.com.
  • carcom2carcom2 Member Posts: 212
    Canadian dollars.

    They say the base price in US dollars is around $26K or $25K, about $3K less than a similarly equiped T&C.
  • maguymaguy Member Posts: 13
    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. The 2007 was too rounded for me, as now cars have a more squared off look. I love the exterior of the 2008 T&C. The 2007 was getting so long in tooth. That egg on wheels was everywhere. I really like the wood on the inside of my 2008. Despite the hard plastics (which the 2007 had too) the style of the 2008 dash is much more modern than the VERY dated 2007. I looked at both, and the 2008 is a much better vehicle style wise.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Neither CR or Edmunds has identified the excessive glare caused by the poorly designed instrument cluster and dash center stack of the current Sienna LE, XLE, and Limited.


    I've never seen any other owner complain about that either. Perhaps it doesn't bother Edmunds or CR, since it doesn't seem to bother most owners.
  • carcom2carcom2 Member Posts: 212
    Not sure who you are talking to and/or disagreeing with the $25K, but this is right from my post 1165 - VW Press Release :

    Volkswagen delivers a competitively priced entry into this high volume segment with prices starting below $25,000. The Routan will be built in an already existing facility in Windsor, Ontario.

    So as I said before, (I've read it in many articles) this $25K is about $3K LESS than a similarly equiped T&C.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Most Sienna owners have NOT owned a Chrysler T&C before buying a more expensive, less satisfactory Toyota Sienna. (FWIW, I did NOT like the white faced instrument cluster of the T&C but it did not have the glare that is caused by the shiny circles around each instrument in the Sienna instrument cluster.)

    Neither Edmunds or CR will admit that Chrysler minivans have many features superior to those of the Sienna or Odyssey. CR still recommends the Odyssey even though many Odysseys are having transmission failures. Have you read in CR that 2004-2007 Siennas have defective welds in the front doors? (Read about these Odyssey and Sienna defects here in the CarSpace Forums).

    I have owned both a T&C and Sienna and write from experience with one of each. ;)
  • maryh3maryh3 Member Posts: 263
    No it's not the exchange rate. The US to Canadian dollar are trading almost equal value. As a matter of fact the Canadian should be stronger.

    That's an expensive van.

    For comparison:

    Base Price in Canada $42895
    Base Price in US $35670

    Total Price in Canada $49370
    Total Price in US $42305
    Minus $1500 Incentive $40805

    That is almost a $9000 difference for the same vehicle in US verses Canada. Why?
    Destination fees? Canadian taxes? Hidden Tariffs (I thought NAFTA ended these??) or what?
  • maryh3maryh3 Member Posts: 263
    I've never seen any other owner complain about that either. Perhaps it doesn't bother Edmunds or CR, since it doesn't seem to bother most owners.

    If I posted this I'd be accused of a sample size of one.
  • yatesjoyatesjo Member Posts: 186
    Most things in Canada are still priced as though the exchange still heavily favored the US dollar and and still hasn't caught up with the historically anomalous exchange parity of late. Ever notice the Canadian price on the book sleeve? They still charge the higher Canadian price in Canada to the benefit of retailers just to the US side of the border.

    Similarly, a lot of foreign built cars sold in the US have not increased in price proportional to the change exchange rates meaning their profits on vehicles are going down. The good news is that cars built in the US can be exported more profitably
  • yatesjoyatesjo Member Posts: 186
    From what I can tell, you are the only one in the world who has a problem with glare on the Sienna dash. From my, abet limited, experience in the Sienna I saw no more glare than in the Odyssey or GC/T&C.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    As previously asked, how many current owners of a 2006 Sienna have owned a T&C ? :confuse:

    Many design defects are not noticed until after a vehicle has been driven for a few weeks or months. I did NOT notice the glare from the poorly designed Sienna instrument cluster because the Sienna CE we test drove had a different cluster and I had not driven a Sienna LE (XLE or Limited) that has the Optitron gauges. All NEW Siennas were kept inside the Toyota dealership warehouse. :shades:
  • yatesjoyatesjo Member Posts: 186
    I don't own any minivan yet- I'm just in my early research phase. We have two children and I won't buy until the birth of our third is imminent meaning I can put it off for at least another 8 months.

    As you say, somethings go unnoticed until you've lived with the vehicle for a while. Having read your comments I looked for the problem and couldn't see it so why do you so deeply fault Edmunds, CR and others for not noting a issue that reveals itself under very narrow conditions?

    I'm coming at this as objectively as possible. An engineer by training, vocation and nature, I research obsessively, weigh all the data I can lay my hands on and do cost/benefit analysis prior to making a purchase. Over the last few weeks I actually took the time to read all 1183 comments on this discussion (not to mention other discussions) so to better know what to look for.

    There are a lot of very passionate opinions on this forum, particularly from the Mopar people. The problem is passion often overrides civility, objectivity and reason.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Excellent observations. :shades:

    Sadly, a brief test drive of any vehicle is insufficient to learn advantages/disadvantages of any vehicle. It takes at least a month of ownership and a long trip to become well acquainted with a vehicle.

    Sienna plusses: The most cargo space behind 3rd row, attractive front door panels with padded armrests that open up to provide a very convenient place for my wife to put sunglasses, cough drops, etc. The 2007-08 Siennas have the most powerful engine with the best EPA fuel economy ratings.

    Odyssey plusses: Best handling minivan with the most comfortable seating/legroom for 7 people with a removeable, comfortable seat for an 8th person. Best designed dash and instrument cluster to prevent glare.

    Grand Caravan/T&C plusses: Quietest, least expensive minivan that has the luxury car feature of separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger and the only minivan with 2nd row seats that fold flat into the floor.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Overall for 19,575 miles is now 23.7 MPG. Mileage at last refill was 14.2 MPG which is considerably better than the 10.9 MPG on previous refill. (Overall fuel economy in 2002 T&C LX was 22.3 MPG). My sister gets MUCH lower gas mileage in her 2001 Odyssey EX than I got with T&C.

    At first refill at 322 miles the mileage was 26.7 MPG. Gas mileage for the first 1371 miles was 27.2 MPG. On first long, round trip the mileage was 29.1 MPG. It dropped to 27.8 MPG on 2nd long, round trip. For successive round trips to the same place the Sienna delivered 29.2 MPG, 28.2 MPG, 28.0 MPG, and 28.6 MPG.

    By comparison, my 2002 T&C LX with 3.3L got 25.0 MPG, 25.9 MPG, 25.1 MPG, 27.7 MPG, 25.8 MPG, 25.9 MPG, 25.7 MPG, 25.6 MPG, 29.1 MPG, 26.2 MPG on 10 of the same long, round trips.

    Wind and temperature conditions had a considerable effect on fuel economy for both the Sienna and T&C. :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    As previously asked, how many current owners of a 2006 Sienna have owned a T&C ?

    You have to have owned a certain type of vehicle before having a problem with the next? :confuse: That's what you imply here, that the other Sienna owners don't report problems because they didn't have a Chrysler van before the Toyota.

    I did NOT notice the glare from the poorly designed Sienna instrument cluster because the Sienna CE we test drove had a different cluster and I had not driven a Sienna LE (XLE or Limited) that has the Optitron gauges. All NEW Siennas were kept inside the Toyota dealership warehouse.

    Wait a sec, you didn't test-drive the van you were laying out $25k+ for?
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    No. :cry:

    Remind EVERYONE to avoid my BIG $ 29,280.88 mistake. :sick:
This discussion has been closed.

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