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2008 Minivans

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For the first comment I was referring to the Door Weld issues on the Sienna.

    You let that myth (CR not reporting that issue) slide right by.

    Maybe you do just look at the pretty pictures. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Link to the thread you mention?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good point about the GM pickup tested, and the axle ratio.

    Keep in mind, though, that the quick Tundra with the bigger engine and the shorter axle ratio still got better mileage than the tall geared, small engined Silverado.

    You say the Tundra "won" but that's not how CR does it. They give individual ratings, and the Silverado scored well, so I wouldn't call it the loser.

    To answer this question

    why do they call it a comparison test?

    I don't think they do that. In fact they include older ratings from models they tested before, which aren't even present to be compared. Often times the highest rated model isn't even evaluated in that particular issue! So there is no winner, in those cases.

    The current issue covering sport sedans is an example. The CTS scores higher than BMW or Mercedes yet it's still not the winner for the class.

    The engine Consumer Reports selected for its test is the one that breaks camshafts, seemingly at random

    Correct, the glass camshafts I mentioned. As soon as CR had enough data, they rated the Tundra "Below Average" for reliability and removed their recommendation. They don't have a crystal ball, but when data became available they made the correction.

    That article would have you think they still recommend the Tundra to this day. They no longer do.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Well written response, by the way.

    I will respond to a couple of things you brought up.

    It's true that the south is giving tax breaks for new assembly plants, and the states are helping (Alabama, Mississippi), but the offer is available to everyone. I'm sure the Unions block that for the domestics.

    Also, remember that it was the Big 3 that demanded that the Japanese build cars in the US of A. Iacocca mentioned that a lot in his book.

    83% N. American content

    The key here being North American, not just American or USA only, but USA, Canada, and Mexico.

    The problem I have with saying North American = Domestic is that it implies that a job created in Mexico is better than a job created in, say, Korea. Both are foreign countries.

    So it's 83% Mexico/USA/Canada. Let's see the break down. I want to know what % is USA only.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    I believe marine2 is referring to this discussion:

    Minivans - Domestic vs. Foreign
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Subscribed, thanks. :shades:
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    They don't give a breakdown of content. But I looked at it wrong, the sticker says 83% American/Canadian content. Mexico is not mentioned. The only breakdown of that is Engine and tranny, made in U.S. My old truck said N.American and I just took it for granted this was the same, but it's not.

    But the thing I was trying to point out still applies. If they had to have all the plants in the US, they couldn't compete at all. There is just to much of an advantage to the foreign makers here, that the American makers don't have, in wages, pensions, vacations, health care, taxes, etc.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'll reply in that other thread. The discussion belongs there.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    I believe marine2 is referring to this discussion:

    Minivans - Domestic vs. Foreign

    Right on Karen, thats where this should be. I would like to take all the rest that deals with American and foreign there.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    In that case you get a pass. ;)
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I don't think they do that.

    Are you looking at only the pictures? Even the pics would show you they're making comparisons!! Every issue they test similar cars - WHY? because it's a comparison. At the beginning of every article, they list ALL cars in that segment and give them ratings...not a comparison?

    I'm glad CR knows which models and options buyers are likely to buy. So if someone is looking to tow a large trailer, they'd equip both the Toyota and GM with largest engines available and make a fair comparison, not the base engine in the GM and top of the line in the Toyota and declare Toyota the winner!

    I'm sure GM execs aren't sitting around, paying any attention to CR.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    I'm still trying to find out what CR meant when they said the instrument panel on my Dodge GC was busy.What the heck does that mean? I thought it was pretty well laid out.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    I'm still trying to find out what CR meant when they said the instrument panel on my Dodge GC was busy.What the heck does that mean? I thought it was pretty well laid out.

    What they mean is, it's not like the japanese vehicles they're used to, therefore different and different is bad.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Sorry to read your son owns a Sienna XLE? Will his front door welds break like they have been breaking in the 2004-2007 Siennas?

    Will the transmission fail in your 2006 Odyssey like they have been failing in MANY Odysseys? :blush:
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    CR has a LOVE affair with Honda and Toyota. Their mustard seed size brains can't comprehend a vehicle with BETTER controls for HVAC, stereo, windshield/rear wipers and washers than the simpleton controls made by Hondota.

    Chrysler vehicles had a separate control for Bass, Treble, Fade, and Balance while Toyonda has the less user friendly "one knob does everything" for the stereo which forces the owner to scroll thru everything to change the balance left/right.

    My 02 T&C LX had a separate control for front wipers/washers and 3 controls for the rear wiper/washers while Hondota have all of these on one stalk located on the right of the steering wheel.

    My 02 T&C LX had a POWER On/Off button for HVAC with a 5 speed fan while my 06 Sienna LE has only 4 speed fan with NO power on/off button....just for a few examples.

    However, the Sienna does have ONE feature that is better than the Odyssey or GC/T&C: The transmission selector has P-R-N-D-4-3-2-L while the others don't have a position to hold the transmission from shifting above 1st gear ( and 4th gear in the Ody). I have not driven a Chrysler minivan with the 6 speed. :shades:
  • hause7hause7 Member Posts: 153
    Actually the Tundra 2WD rate above average while the 4WD rated well below average. They recommend the 2WD not the 4WD.
  • hause7hause7 Member Posts: 153
    The door weld problem stopped in the 2008 model year, even though my 04 Limited AWD has 4 times the miles you have on your 06 with not one problem.

    We had the radio controls in our T&C like you said, it made it look cheap to me and i like the one button does all idea.

    I love the gated shifter on the Sienna, use it while driving through Mt. Shasta on I-5.
  • yatesjoyatesjo Member Posts: 186
    I'd rather not have this sound like a rant, but I strenuously disagree with the assertion that we should buy cars from GM/Ford/Chrysler out of some patriotic duty to support American manufacturing. Neither by public subsidy, nor personal choice do I want to pay more than fair market price for a vehicle. To do otherwise is simply bad economics.

    The automotive business is truly international in scope. Ford and GM both have substantial markets and manufacturing sourced internationally; Toyota, Honda, BMW, Daimler, Subaru, Nissan et al have parts and manufacturing sources as well as development and engineering within the US. A company's profits are accrued to the share holders and alongside Ford and GM you can trade Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Daimler etc on the NYSE; and if you invest in Asia/Pacific mutual or index funds, you own some of the Japanese/Korean companies and likewise European companies in those mutual and index funds.

    A decision on which vehicle to buy should be made with the right goals in mind and those goals should purely relate to how the vehicle will be used, the costs entailed and the value returned. All nationalism does is muddy the water and lead people to choose a vehicle that costs too much or does not fit their needs. If American manufacturers can build competitive quality vehicles at competitive prices then they will survive in the marketplace. By subsidizing non-competitive industries all we do is make ourselves poorer while delaying the inevitable.

    Unfortunately for Chrysler, one con that must be weighted into the purchase of their minivan is the possibility that Cerebrus decides to cut their losses and pull the plug. Of the big three, Chrysler is in the weakest position during a domestic economic slump having been divested in the 1970s of the brands that gave it any significant international presence. What is a lifetime warranty worth when the company no longer exists? The T&C and GC are nice vans, but are they enough nicer and enough less expensive to overcome these hurdles? That is one of the questions I am exploring.

    A similar questioning should come when looking at any vehicle from the Big3. GM is in the strongest position, but they are all bleeding cash. Buying a Toyota, Honda or Nissan I would be confident that the manufacturer will be around to support the vehicle for a long time to come.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Toyota, Honda, BMW, Daimler, Subaru, Nissan et al have parts and manufacturing sources as well as development and engineering within the US.

    This is like comparing a fly to an elephant. The engineering and development presence of all these OEMs is TINY.....support engineering in the plant, some artistic design studios maybe in CA, and an "engineering" office here is detroit.

    No one is saying to pay too much for a domestic minivan, or buy an inferior product. That's hardly the case when choosing a Chrysler minivan where you got new technologies/features, equal or better quality, better warranty and lower prices.

    The T&C and GC are nice vans, but are they enough nicer and enough less expensive to overcome these hurdles? That is one of the questions I am exploring.

    Without a question - YES. Having owned previous gens, and in the market later this year for a new one, and having driven it's competition...YES again. I believe even Honda realizes how good they are, as they started heavily discounting 07s and 08s Odys last fall.

    GM is in the strongest position, but they are all bleeding cash. Buying a Toyota, Honda or Nissan I would be confident that the manufacturer will be around to support the vehicle for a long time to come.

    You might want to cheer up some and not be so dire here...... GM is bleeding cash only because of accounting issues. They'll be around long after our bones are dust. Nissan was given up for dead years ago before Renault stepped in. Chrysler is taking the steps needed to grow the business and they have the cash. Once this economy picks up they'll be fine.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    I'd rather not have this sound like a rant, but I strenuously disagree with the assertion that we should buy cars from GM/Ford/Chrysler out of some patriotic duty to support American manufacturing. Neither by public subsidy, nor personal choice do I want to pay more than fair market price for a vehicle. To do otherwise is simply bad economics.

    No one is asking anyone to buy an American vehicle that is priced higher or inferior in quality.

    Please go to Domestic/Foreign and read the posts I put up. There is where we should be discussing this anyway. Thanks.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We may be splitting hairs, but I don't think it's a "shoot out"-style comparion if the CTS beats the BMW and Mercedes and they rank the Inifiniti G35 (not even tested in that issue) #1.

    In a true comparo they would pick a winner from one of the cars tested.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What they mean is, it's not like the japanese vehicles they're used to, therefore different and different is bad.

    It's not just CR that gets "used to" an interior layout, it's everyone. Simple ergonomics make you feel right at home, right away. There's no having to get used to it. You inherently know where things are, it becomes 2nd instinct.

    For the most part, Japanese makes have indeed copied each other, or at least standardized on a basic layout. The headlight switches are all in the same place, the wiper switches, the cruise (in most cases). Koreans hopped on this bandwagon. Even some domestic cars have caved.

    Good Example: hop out of a Mazda, and into a Subaru, and all the controls are in the same place. Then go to a Honda, again, you're right at home. And to a Toyota, and so on. You don't have to go looking for wiper controls. This is good ergonomics.

    Bad Example: you're in a Mercedes, and have to look for the light switch, which is on the dash instead of on a stalk. Then you get in a Porsche, and can't find the key hole, which is left of the steering wheel. Then you go drive a Saab, and the key goes in - the center console? And you can't get it out, until you realize the shifter has to be in Reverse. Then your 7 series Bimmer has a bizarre looking shift selector that takes a while to figure out. I haven't even brought up iDrive or any of those devices.

    If you need a manual to figure something out, it's not intuitive. Bad ergonomics.

    If you can get used to a certain layout, and move from car to car and feel at home instantly. Well, that's just good ergonomic design.

    Notice I didn't criticize domestics - that's because I think the Europeans commit far more sins in that regard.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    ...if you're done talking about 2008 minivans, it's time to shut this down. I don't see any new folks wandering in with questions. You can go to the other discussion I linked to the other day to continue your Minivans-Domestic vs. Foreign debate.
This discussion has been closed.

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