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2008 Minivans

145791025

Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Just checked, no recalls at all for any 2008 Siennas, which started production in July.

    No recalls at all for any 2007 Siennas.

    No recalls at all for any 2006 Siennas.

    You have to go all the way back to model year 2005 to find one single recall, and it was for a rather minor issue of a trim bezel around a seat belt.

    So much for them "slipping badly". :P

    The opposite is true, in fact. The van came out in 2004, and they have ironed out all the teething issues.

    That makes a new Sienna a very, very safe bet. :shades:

    Source: NHTSA.GOV.
  • carcom2carcom2 Member Posts: 212
    I just think it drives much better and I probably will not tow anything.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    They had a five van comparo between the Dodge Grand Caravan, Honda Odyssey, Toyota Sienna, Nissan Quest, and Hyundai Entourage.

    Any guesses as to how they finished?

    They tried to equip these vans as close to $35k as possible, but the Nissan was around $39k, with the Toyota around $30k.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    What year, model, engine, transmission, etc. of each?

    Were they lazy like CR and just MSRP or did they know how to shop for the best actual price for each? :lemon:

    Since you posted the data, I would guess they liked the Odyssey the best. :blush:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    They used the top engine in the Dodge, the rest all have standard engines and transmissions (including the 3.5L 266 hp Sienna). The Odyssey was a 2007, not the revised 2008 model.

    Given that the name of the magazine is "CAR and DRIVER" I'm not surprised they go with the most "carlike" of all the vans as their number one choice.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Silly Silly Hans, you don't get it do you!

    Don't play this game. You should know by now you can't win.

    If you have a 4spd auto and Honda offers 5, your's is garbage, obsolete etc.. If your's has a 6 spd and Honda offers 5, your's is unproven garbage. If you don't offer all the airbags as others, your's is unsafe, but if you then offer more airbags, say knee airbags in addition to curtain etc.., so what. If you get $5000 off your minivan and someone pays dealer markup for a Honda, you can only use MSRP numbers to calculate resale value, not actual transaction prices. If your minivan doesn't get anywhere near EPA numbers, you just point to EPA numbers anyways. If your minivan is 1.4 secs slower to 60 mph - get off the road you're a hazard!! If your minivan is 1/10th sec faster, your engine will probably blow up at 20,000 miles, hence the need for better warranty. If your minivan offers innovative features, you probably don't need em to begin with, unless they later show up on foreign minivans, and then they'll be of much better design, quality and a necessity. Total recall numbers only matter, even if they're voluntary and minor, unless you have a foreign vehicle and are fixed via TSBs. You also can ignore the TSBs and tons of complaints online because others are more passionate then you are and have much higher expectations then you - so dismiss those numbers. If you had a single bad experience with a domestic product - never ever buy another, they're all crapola! And bash em every chance you can on Edmunds. Keep reliving the pain, oh, and you don't actually have to own em either, it could be an old family vehicle or story passed on from generation to generation!! Even Edsels are fair game!!

    Don't try playing the numbers game :)
  • hause7hause7 Member Posts: 153
    what, you can watch car and driver, they took it of our spike tv a year ago. how can i see the van comparro?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    No, the magazine that can be found in any Barnes & Noble or Books a Million. I have a subscription to Motor Trend and Automobile, I think it is something like $12 for 12 issues for all of these magazines including C&D. I recently swapped C&D for Automobile since C&D and MT are VERY redundant.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Thanks for the post dennis. I didn't say anything close to what you are accusing me implicitly of doing.

    Why do you have to try and pick a fight filled with implied insults towards me and my post (the one hans replied to)where one didn't previously exist?

    I said C&D picks winners based on which drives most sporty-like a car. I didn't "bash anything every chance I got" on Edmunds, like you say. I didn't screw around with numbers. I didn't even bring up the subject of reliability. Yet you pin all of these insults on me, and if not all on me, on all Honda owners.

    A little maturity, or respect, at least, would be appreciated dennis.

    TheGrad
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    If you have a 4spd auto and Honda offers 5, your's is garbage, obsolete etc.. If your's has a 6 spd and Honda offers 5, your's is unproven garbage.

    As long as it drives fine and does what it should who cares? Not me people should drive them and see for themselves.

    If you get $5000 off your minivan and someone pays dealer markup for a Honda, you can only use MSRP numbers to calculate resale value, not actual transaction prices

    If your van is 5000 off MSRP right off the bat you got a pricing problem. If your paying over MSRP for a Honda Odyssey it's 2004 or 2005! ;)

    If your minivan doesn't get anywhere near EPA numbers, you just point to EPA numbers anyways.

    Thats been the case for most cars. As far as I can tell all minivans tested by CR got much less than EPA numbers. Really sounds like sour grapes.

    If your minivan is 1.4 secs slower to 60 mph - get off the road you're a hazard!! If your minivan is 1/10th sec faster, your engine will probably blow up at 20,000 miles, hence the need for better warranty.

    The fact is DCX has the highest warranty costs in the business. They spend 6 times as much on repairs than Honda. And only sell 33% more cars. Do figure. The warranty is to sell cars. You wouldn't give more unless you had to. I had the 3.3 liter, I don't think it was 1.4 seconds slower than my Ody(maybe the 3.8L was)but it sure made alot of noise but didn't really seem to be in sync with the tranny.

    If your minivan offers innovative features, you probably don't need em to begin with, unless they later show up on foreign minivans, and then they'll be of much better design, quality and a necessity.

    What you need and don't need is not a big deal. Didn't dodge go with the side windows like Honda. The DCX guys yelled like crazy about that before. Now they seem quiet.

    Total recall numbers only matter, even if they're voluntary and minor, unless you have a foreign vehicle and are fixed via TSBs. You also can ignore the TSBs and tons of complaints online because others are more passionate then you are and have much higher expectations then you - so dismiss those numbers. If you had a single bad experience with a domestic product - never ever buy another, they're all crapola! And bash em every chance you can on Edmunds.

    Look where ya want Chysler led all companies in recalls last year 2.3 million. Where there's smoke there's fire.
    Honda had the least. Is the Chrysler van good, no doubt it is but I gave Dodge 3 shots at my business. I was looking after the Lifetime warranty came out and said damn there just isn't one of their cars I'd buy(now if I needed a truck ;) That's what they need to fix. BTW I loved the edsel do you know where I can get one? Heard they had less problems per vehicle than my 2001 Caravan! :blush:

    You are right with Chryslers numbers it's really not the right time to play the numbers game!
  • hause7hause7 Member Posts: 153
    is it in the October issue?
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Grad - I just replied to your post because it was convenient, not that I was responding to you directly so relax.

    I like how people are changing their tunes now.

    As far as real world recalls and warranty, How many cars does Chrysler sell globally vs Honda, and how do recalls vary global, or laws for filing suits, or even warranties?
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    November issue.....Seems to me that everything you'd want a minivan for, Chrysler knocked out of the ballpark. Great acceleration, smooth ride, extremely quiet ride, storage space, flexible seating. They didn't like the steering feel and handling was limited by the stability control etc.. Toss in one of the best warranty, and willingness to deal and Chrysler will probably sell almost 1/2 million vans.
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    As far as real world recalls and warranty, How many cars does Chrysler sell globally vs Honda, and how do recalls vary global, or laws for filing suits, or even warranties?

    Ok Dennis I'll do your research. For 2006 Honda 3.55 million cars worldwide. The Chrysler Group 2.65 million cars. Cars recalled for 2006 Honda 1096, Chrysler group 2,300,000. As far as laws and lawsuits I'm not a lawyer. But if you send me the 21K you saved by buying the Dodge, you can put me on retainer. DCX(4.7 million cars sold includes all of DCX not just chrysler group) for 2006 led all car companies for warranty costs at 6.1 billion. Honda had warranty costs of under a billion. I really don't think recalls are the best way to see how good quality is I'm happy you now agree with me! :shades:
  • carcom2carcom2 Member Posts: 212
    While you're doing the research, it would be interesting to see a chart with not just the # of recalls for ea. manuf, but the breakdown of what the recall was for. Some things, I'm sure, less severe than others, so just looking at total numbers doesn't tell the whole true accurate picture when deciding on what vehicle to buy.

    All co.'s have recalls. Even on newer vehicles:

    "Honda is recalling 182,756 Civic sedans from the 2006 and 2007 model years in the U.S. to fix a faulty wheel bearing that may cause the wheels to fall off."

    "Toyota recalls 533,000 Tundra's, Sequoia's"

    "Six injuries and 11 accidents led Toyota to announce that it will recall certain 2004-06 Tundra trucks and 2004-07 Sequoia SUVs to repair faulty steering components."

    "We find it odd that both Honda and Toyota made the announcements early in 2007, after the total recall figures for 2006 were announced. If Toyota’s more than half-million recalled vehicles from this incident had been added to its 2006 tally it would have been much closer to GM and Ford’s 2006 recall figures."

    "Toyota recalls 130,000 Tundra's"
    "This is a complicated one, folks. Toyota is recalling all 2003 - 2005 model year Tundra pickups due to a federal regulation regarding airbag deployment and child safety seat use"

    Sorry for this post not having to do with minivans. Hope we can get back to the topic.
  • carcom2carcom2 Member Posts: 212
    I know exactly what you mean.
  • siennamisiennami Member Posts: 116
    Toyota also offers a lifetime warranty just like Dodge and Chrysler. I have one on my '07 Sienna. So that's not an exclusive for them anymore.
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    While you're doing the research, it would be interesting to see a chart with not just the # of recalls for ea. manuf, but the breakdown of what the recall was for. Some things, I'm sure, less severe than others, so just looking at total numbers doesn't tell the whole true accurate picture when deciding on what vehicle to buy.

    All co.'s have recalls. Even on newer vehicles:

    "Honda is recalling 182,756 Civic sedans from the 2006 and 2007 model years in the U.S. to fix a faulty wheel bearing that may cause the wheels to fall off."

    "Toyota recalls 533,000 Tundra's, Sequoia's"

    "Six injuries and 11 accidents led Toyota to announce that it will recall certain 2004-06 Tundra trucks and 2004-07 Sequoia SUVs to repair faulty steering components."


    Please read my entire post. I do not think recalls are the main issues with car quality!! All companies have recalls!! I am just pointing this out to dennis cause I think it's funny(He use to comment how many more recalls my Ody had compared to his 2005 DCX van, stating time spent at dealer, overall reliability, yada yada yada now the recalls per vehicle are about the same LOL).I think recalls might be a good thing in some cases. I noticed you picked Honda and Toyota to make a point of here, why not put GM Ford and DCX issues up?? If you read my post I just gave the answers to the questions I was asked, isn't that what you should do when someone asks you a specific question? Now you want charts plus a risk factor given to each recall(talk about opening yourself up for something LOL). ;)
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    I think that most of the vehicles today are pretty dependable. So it comes down to what you want to use your minivan for and what you want on it.

    I also like to buy American made and American owned if possible. I believe keeping profit in this country is good for all Americans, creating more jobs outside of the automotive field..
  • hause7hause7 Member Posts: 153
    how did you get a copy so early? i was driving around trying to find an issue, no one has the November issue in my area yet.
  • socalawdsocalawd Member Posts: 542
    I think that most of the vehicles today are pretty dependable. So it comes down to what you want to use your minivan for and what you want on it.

    Yep Marine never would have been happy with the Ody it just doesn't fit his needs. I wasn't happy with my DCX van wasn't really what I wanted. First time I didn't keep a car to 100K miles. Was it ok I'll tell ya what never stranded in 50K miles. Just wanted some of the stuff Honda had at the time. Now the Chrysler has all those features and I think it's a van to look at before you buy anything else. In So. Cal. most people don't even look at the Chrysler cars. For value and comparision you should.

    I also like to buy American made and American owned if possible. I believe keeping profit in this country is good for all Americans, creating more jobs outside of the automotive field..

    Really hard to follow whats what in a global economy. But I love thing built in the US by us. I still have only bought one car built outside the US. My 2001 caravan(Windsor Ca). I recently bought 1000 shares in Ford when it was in the mid 7$ range. I think they could get themselves back in the swing of things. Chrysler has got alot of work, as does Ford. Each has come a ways in quality in the last 5 years. Chryslers warranty cost are high but have been reduced by 40% in the last 5 years. I remember a time when I didn't think I'd buy anything that wasn't a Pontiac. They called me and my 2 friends team Pontiac. Boy did I love my 1973 Grand Prix SJ 455 4 barrel. Talk about bad gas mileage. :cry: Man it was a great car for a 17 yo.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I just picked one up and read it at Barnes & Noble Friday night. No special skills required! I'm in the Birmingham, Alabama area.
  • carcom2carcom2 Member Posts: 212
    I sat in a 2007 pretty loaded Odyssey today. The dealer was closed but someone forgot to lock one of the doors of the van in the lot.

    I know it's a matter of taste, but as nice as some of the van is like the looks of the seats, I really dislike the dash. It does nothing for me. The 2008 T&C is nicer to me. Maybe partially due to a a nice mix of colors with the faux wood & chrome. The Honda is pretty much all the same color. The tan looks better than the grey.

    Seats were confortable. I didn't look at the window switches, but it seems like the 3 rd row windows do not open. Is that true? Also the 3rd row windows did not have the window shades. And there is not enough room to put your left arm on the built in arm rest because of the wall protruding into that area. I thought that was weird. The right side was fine. The T&C has more storage areas. The Odessey seems to have more 3rd row leg room but less room behind it than the T&C. Also the T&C stow area in the 2nd row has much more room than the in floor storage area of the Odessey. So I don't even care how good the Odessey may possible drive, I can't own a car if I don't like the dash.
  • hause7hause7 Member Posts: 153
    maybe thats why i can't find it, you live in a complete different area than me, i live in Sacramento, ca. thanks though for informing me. =]
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Ha, must be the time difference! :) lol
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    So I don't even care how good the Odessey may possible drive, I can't own a car if I don't like the dash.


    Not crazy about the dash in my 2005 Dodge GC. But I wanted Stow-N-Go. We bought the 2004 Honda Civic because the wife like the dash better than she did the Ford Focus. Even though she thought the Focus drove and rode better. I tried to talk her into the Focus, but she liked that colorful speedometer. Women.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    The dash is definitely a matter of taste because I absolutely hate the fake wood and chrome on a lot of new cars. To me it's the ultimate in a cheap look. Or more so, a car trying too look expensive on the outside.

    Reminds me of these new developments that have a brick veneer on the front of the house, so if you're standing directly in front (for a real estate picture!) they look great, but look on either side or down deep and they're cheap.
  • hause7hause7 Member Posts: 153
    what place did the sienna come in? what was the 0-60 times?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You folks will have to excuse me while I laugh, but...

    Does anyone else find it amusing that when anyone here criticizes Toyota they point to vehicles other than the Sienna?

    That's like telling someone they are ugly because of the way their sister looks. :D

    I have a subscription to C&D but the Oct. issue is not here yet. I'm not surprised that the Ody would be the enthusiasts' choice, though. I've mentioned it handled the best of the vans I sampled, though I didn't find the advantage compelling enough to overcome other factors.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I hate to ruin the ending!
    CAR AND DRIVER STORY SPOILER ALERT!!! LOOK AWAY IF YOU DONT WANT TO KNOW THE OUTCOME!!!

    0-60 times

    7.2 Sienna
    8.0 Grand Caravan
    8.7 Odyssey
    8.8 Quest
    8.9 Entourage (I can't remember exactly, I could be wrong about the Hyundai's time).

    Finishing order: LOOK AWAY, LAST CHANCE!!!!!

    Odyssey Touring, Sienna LE, Grand Caravan SXT, Quest SE, Entourage Limited.
  • hause7hause7 Member Posts: 153
    Thanks Grad =] they should have used an XLE model sienna, it may have been in first place then.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    They said that the only models available for testing from Toyota were an LE, or a completely loaded model. They went with the model more people will buy, therefore giving Toyota a point in its favor on price, and a detrimental one from features. With the loaded model, it'd just be the other way around.
  • marine2marine2 Member Posts: 1,155
    Does that mean the others are unsafe to drive, because they are to slow to merge onto the freeway traffic or pass another car? That's what many were saying about the Dodge being .7 of a second slower than the Honda
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    No it means the Dodge is safer than these others, that once led the class, when it comes to merging/passing quickly and safely. The Toyota reigns supreme with its 2GR 3.5L V6 in the Sienna though.

    On a personal note, I don't believe you'll find that I was in the "too slow to be safe" camp; I have a car that might run 0-60 in 10 seconds with a tailwind (130 hp Accord, 4-speed Auto). Not fast, just adequate and little more. That's about what the Dodge was (and still is without the 4.0). Our Odyssey (a 2000 model) had 210 hp and 229 lb-ft; not much different from the 3.8L in the Dodge was (205hp, 240 lb-ft?), and it was peppy enough, and plenty smooth. Not unsafe. Those claiming anything going 0-60 in 10 seconds or less as unsafe to drive are just trying to push someone's buttons, and shouldn't be paid attention to.

    0-60 in 10 seconds may not be fast or fun, but I don't remember people complaining 15 years ago when it was normal to have an SUV that couldn't break the 10 (or 12) second barrier. In today's world of 400 hp Escalades, apparently 10 seconds is no longer fast enough. It's not a safety issue though, unless you need every ounce of that power to pass on a two-lane, if that's the case you probably shouldn't be doing that in the first place.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    Exactly...anything with a 0-60 less than 10 seconds is fine.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    All plenty adequate acceleration, but the Sienna actually feels fast.

    What about MPG during their test loop?

    Hopefully my C&D arrives in the mail today.

    $30k MSRP is a very basic Sienna. Mine was $29,292 IIRC, and it's a pretty basic LE, which I ended up paying $25k for.

    They pit that up against an Ody TOURING? Sheesh, man. that's ridiculous! :surprise:

    Seriously, I priced my LE against an Ody EX, and the EX cost $1400 more.

    Step up in price from there to the EX-L.

    Step up from there to the EX-L RES.

    Step up from there to the EX-L NAV RES.

    Step up from there to the Ody Touring.

    We're talking about 4-5 steps up the price ladder!

    It's actually pretty amazing that the Sienna still managed to take 2nd given that handicap.

    Next month: Acura TSX vs. Toyota Corolla! :D

    The price difference is similar.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It was a Touring with no NAV or RES, so it was right around the $35k mark. A top-level loaded Sienna would be over $40k, right? That was the other choice.

    I don't have the magazine (just read it at B&N), so I don't remember the details other than the 0-60, and rough prices.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    NO. Car and Driver weighs PERFORMANCE too heavily. The heavier XLE may have felt "Clumsy and Un-refined". ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Actually, Toyota has slowly de-contented the XLE and Limited models due to complaints about that exact issue - high price.

    The XLE no longer has the JBL sound standard, probably because the Ody EX doesn't come with its premium sound included. Toyota also deleted the tow prep package for 2008, another thing the Ody never had.

    The Sienna Limited deleted the HIDs and the dynamic laser cruise control for MY2007, and they dropped the price by a grand. Now those are basically in a $1200 or so option package.

    I'm not sure about MSRP, but you can get an XLE for well under $30k and a Limited for $33k or so street prices. I think that's comparable to an Ody Touring.

    They should have tested a Limited, then.

    It's more than just the content scores, too, the LE has 16" wheels with high profile tires that carry a lower speed rating. XLE and higher have tires that would improve the skidpad grip, slalom, braking, and steering feel, with a slight trade-off in ride.

    Oh well, it still got 2nd overall, and to be honest I think C&D would have picked the best handling Odyssey anyway.
  • hause7hause7 Member Posts: 153
    Are you sure it wasn't the October issue? i been calling different laces and all of them have the October issues.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nope, I have the October issue here at home, it's not in there. The November issue didn't come in today's mail, either. :(
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I never said WHICH issue (someone else filled in that blank for me). I don't actually know which issue it was to be honest.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Just so everyone knows the history here. For years before this new generation from DCX, all you'd hear from Honda people was how superior their Oddy's were compared to everyone else's, how great the quality is, how unsafe the Dodge was because is was 1.4 seconds slower to 60 mph than the Oddy, how terrible it was because it only came with a 4 speed auto instead of the Oddy's 5 spd, how it didn't have stability control or curtain airbags, how resale value is so much better but only using MSRP numbers which favor imports, how uncomfortable stow n go seats are and no one really needs them, how someone once owned one and it was the worst vehicle ever produced, or they knew someone who had problems.

    So being a DCX owner (or any other brand), if you pointed out they're shortcomings i.e..recalls or complaints on here.....HOW DARE YOU!!! It's ok only to take the bashings, it's not nice to respond

    Now the world has flipped on these folks and they're grasping for anything to attack DCX still. You'll hear how the base versions don't have the 6 spd or a smaller engine but all the safety devices, and for thousands less than other's. Now, if you're 0-60 time is under 10 seconds everything is fine...but .1 sec over and you shouldn't be allowed on the road. Next we'll hear how unsafe others are because they can't corner as well at higher speeds (even if some manufacturers calibrate their stability control for safer driving as they determine it). As I told Hans, you can't win.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Someone throw me a life preserver... I'm drowning in the sarcasm... :sick:
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    I would say that the 5, or even 6spd auto is much smoother and more efficient than a 4sp auto, so it seems like they could have put some $$ into that over spinning seats...at least in my opinion.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ody threads I've been in were not like that.

    They love their van, for the most part, but they tend to focus on the car-like handling, not acceleration.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Dropped a friend off at the local Chrysler dealership just an hour ago, so while I was there I took a top of the line limited out for a test drive. My observations:

    1) Much faster than my 2005 CG SXT

    2) Major improvements in noise when cruising...very quiet.

    3) Fantastic sound from stereo (the My gig with backup camera). My fav part is the camera - its perfect for hitching up my RV.

    4) Headliner mat'l and quality seemed very german, like my old BMW...maybe same supplier or good knockoff.

    5) The IP graining and texture was as good as I remember in some others I drove years ago before buying my 2005. Still not up to VW's quality though, I'd guess halfway there, which make me curious to the VW version of this van???

    6) The key is not really a key anymore, just a fob that slips into a slot like on a german car. The fob also has the remote start built into it. Slick feature for a minivan.

    7) $37,000 sticker, was lacking power 3rd seat and tow package. Was a stow n go version

    8) The gearshift lever is TERRIBLE!!! My "new" 1963 Corvair coupe has better shift lever on it!! This was atrocious...clunky, rough, hard to shift. Felt like crapola - TRASHY, JUNKY..... WTF Chrysler? Did anyone actually drive this before approving it for production???

    9) The power sliding doors.....IMO, the best available....smooth, quiet high quality sounding action, and I was happy with the ones on my 2005. Big advancement whatever they did.

    10) I like the new gee wiz center console, don't quite understand C&D's issues with it. It seemed solid to me.

    11) I forgot to ask if the window switches light up at night??

    12) The interior was a really nice light cream color....that could never stay clean with a normal family.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Wonder if that gearshift you sampled was bad? Did you ask to try a 2nd one?

    Maybe that is their demo car and it gets a lot of abuse?
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    it was brand new, plastic still on seats etc.... It came from factory that way I believe, unless something happened to it?

    When I get a chance I'll stop by another dealer and check again.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm curious to check one out as well.

    I'm going to the Taste of Lexus event on Saturday but they won't have minivans. They do bring competitors' cars, so it's a great way to sample various models.
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