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2008 Minivans
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Comments
Did you get to sit in the Stow 'N Go seats? I'm waiting to here and see if they've been improved. Thought the original ones were 2 thin and not cushioned enough. I recently sat in the Swivel 'N Go seats and this time noticed my knees up higher than I would like and my thighs were not completely touching seat bottoms unless I sat wide where my thighs were out on the side bolsters. Somewhat disappointed in that. (I'm just under 6'. Maybe this is not a problem for shorter people. I could get comfortable in the driver's seat after making different adjustments.) It gets better if you slide the 2nd row seats back, but then there is hardly any room for 3rd row passengers feet. Also there isn't much room for feet to slide under the seat in front of you. The Swivel 'N Go facing back is very disappointing for foot space. They should have come up with a better design for more foot room under the seats and should of designed the 3rd row to be able to slide back since there is so much room behind it. And forget about an adult being able to get your legs under the table top which they should have made height adjustable. Plus if the table top is on, you can't swivel the seats back to the front because the back of the seat is in the way. I think if you lower the back of the seat, you can swivel it. Just too many steps and effort I think. A better design is needed. Are you listening Chrysler!!?? I like most everything about the Limited but the seating situation is not that great. My 97 GC has more comfortable 2nd & 3rd row. Also I didn't think the stereo was as fantastic as you did and I heard it and played around with it 2 different times. The bass is very good, mids & highs good, not fantastic. And adjusting the equalizer hardly made much of a difference when boosting the mids and or highs. In the first car I listened to the stereo, it's as if the fader did nothing to add more highs. The system should have sounded much better based on all the hype. I didn't feel like I was surrounded with music. Maybe CD's will sound better. FM was good- acceptable, not exceptional.
Another thing that is actually dumb, is that the metal base that holds the table pole in place, is raised inches above the floor instead of being flush. When the table is not set up, having that base, which is permanently installed in the floor, gets in the way of your foot placement. It's kind of ridiculous to have the base there all the time.
They should give you an option of getting Stow 'N Go with the table. So this way you could stow one or both of the 2nd row and then sit in the 3rd row with all the leg room you want. I guess you could stow the 3rd row and turn the Swivel 'N Go to the back and also have a lot of leg room. I wonder if there are holes in the floor under the carpet of the vans with Stow 'N Go so one could later on buy the base & table to be installed later. They may not want to take on that risk of an individual installing it poorly though.
So I still have reservations.
So you definitely need legroom for at least one adult. Kids will be fine, of course.
Dennis: the rubber bubbles - did they look durable? That sure does seem like a good idea. They could take any size cup, including an octagon-shaped bottom.
I've checked 2 bookstores and no November C&D. How did your B&N get it so early? I usually get it in the mail one month before the cover date, so that would be next Monday. :sick:
I noticed on the cheaper T&C in showroom that they have a much smaller console....mounted to the floor, not the flip kind found on the Kias/Hyundais
Ain't competition grand? They keep upping the ante, and we benefit.
Also many more empty nesters are using these vehicles to transport adult friends, seniors, etc. So the 2 nd & 3 rd rows space, ease of access & comfort are definitely important to adults.
Hope you pay more attention to where you're driving then trying to look into the 2nd and 3rd row of the minivans which gets difficult to see through with so many minivans having the tinted privacy glass on the 2nd and 3rd row windows - LOL
Each minivan builder caters to the needs of a "Guestimated" buyer:
Chrysler: Most innovations (some of questionable worth) for a growing family seeking value but results in cheap feeling plastic laden interior which turns off buyers who want a luxurious looking and feeling interior.
Odyssey: Sporty handling with a luxurious interior with the MOST comfortable seating for 7 adults.
Sienna: Cushy ride with the MOST powerful standard engine and overall fuel economy available with REAL seats for 7 or 8 people.
Kia and Hyundai: Newcomer to the party with cheap initial purchase price because of cheap looking, cheap feeling carpet, seats, etc. for a minivan with many features.
First, though, I have to say it, Car & Driver simply loves Honda. Either that or Honda has the best PR people and just know how to butter them up. The Ody wins mostly on subjective measures.
Example: Sienna and GC are quicker in every single acceleration test, yet the Ody uses the most gas. And by a significant amount - just 16 mpg for Honda. This is for the model with VCM, imagine without VCM! Dodge managed 18mpg, and Sienna got 19mpg.
Nissan and Hyundai got a suck-OPEC-dry 14 mpg. Embarassing. And the Nissan wants premium fuel, by the way. Save up that gas money.
Toyota wins all acceleration tests *and* is the most efficient. It's the lowest priced, the lightest, the most powerful, most cargo behind 1st row, most cargo behind 2nd row, most cargo behind 3rd row, most cases of beer behind 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rows, and widest cargo area. Powertrain score is a runaway first place.
Of the 3, the Ody also has the highest price.
They knock the Toyota in "fun to drive" and "gotta have it", both subjective. Also, if they had picked an XLE they would get better tires to even out performance, even though skidpad grip actually tied the Honda and beat the Dodge by a wide margin. :sick:
The only thing it did poorly on that was measured objectively was the lane change. Braking was only so-so, as well. Again, though, better tires would help here at least a little.
They even complain about a hard to fold 3rd row, yet Toyota offers a power folding feature within the price range of the other vans. :sick:
Dodge did well in acceleration, fuel economy, and was the quietest at 70mph cruise (someone here called that - kudos). Brakes and skid pad let it down, but oddly the lane change was tops.
Let's just say that depending upon what your priorities are, any one of these three could arguably be considered a winner. :shades:
I really wish they had tested a Sienna XLE (or use an Ody LX).
As a current owner of a 2006 Sienna LE and former owner of a 2002 T&C LX, I am ready to buy an Odyssey (primarily for BEST seat comfort and BEST designed dash to prevent glare).
I agree that the Odyssey is the MOST expensive and the Sienna has the MOST power at the lowest price. :shades:
Maybe it's just me, but the other day I looked through the window of a new 2007 or maybe it was 2008 Sienna locked in the dealer lot. I used to think this van was like a Lexus inside when I first saw it not that many yrs. ago. Now it looks a bit dated. What's your opinion? Maybe I'll have to take one for a test drive.
"Dodge did well in acceleration, fuel economy, and was the quietest at 70mph cruise (someone here called that - kudos). Brakes and skid pad let it down, but oddly the lane change was tops. "
As I've mentioned in other posts, the T&C that I drove with the self-leveling suspension drove much better, tighter than the GC without the SLS. Do you are anyone else know if the brakes might be enhanced with the SLS. I think the skid pad #'s would be better with the SLS. Would you agree?
I've got the itch for a new van though realistically, I should forget it as my 2005 had 21,000 miles on it and I have no problems etc.... I guess I just like to look, keep up with new technologies etc... I built a T&C limited last night...about $37k!! OUCH Then a Oddy EX L w/nav/dvd etc...that was $36k!! Both would be too nice to haul dogs and go camping in...so hanging on to CG SXT
We haul mainly ourselves but do put a child seat and infant seat base in the van. The easy of installation and removal is excellent. Having seats that would swivel and face outward to load the kids would be a bonus but having seats facing backward is definitely a puke generator. It is relatively easy to enter the third row seats and it is comfortable back there. We are taking a long road trip soon with four adults and I anticipate no difficulties.
Our Odyssey has 34,000 trouble free miles and is 24 months old.
Note they actually picked the Sienna for best 2nd row comfort, and while Ody took 1st row honors the Sienna offers the most space in the front row.
carcom2: I already bought an 07 Sienna. The article reinforced my decision in a big way. 0-60 in 7.2 seconds and 19mpg? First at both? For me, right there, it's Game Over. :shades:
It's the whole paradox. Quickest and most efficient, how'd they do that? Over 100,000 miles, getting 19mpg instead of 16mpg means you save $2961 at $3/gallon of gas. Nearly $3 grand! And remember, that whole time, it's quicker.
Note that for what I paid I could only get an Ody LX, which would have had no VCM and less sporting wheels and tires. Even if I has stretched the budget by $1600 to an EX I would still not have gotten VCM. 16mpg is bad enough.
I look at these interiors as purposeful. None are what I would call attractive. The shifter sticks out of the Sienna's center console like a tree growing in the middle of nowhere - but I have to admit the design functions very well.
Minivan designers seem far more concerned about where you put stuff, and making everything accessible, and most do a great job at that.
Very good point about the self-leveling suspension. If it reduces nose-dive, IMHO then yes, that would help braking, as less weight would shift forward, the rear tires could offer more stopping power. A flat stance would also help handling.
Dennis wrote: "Actual numbers don't matter much".
I have a problem with C&D doing that. Why bother measuring if the numbers don't matter all that much?
They rated the Ody 8/7 for handling/ride, while the Sienna got a 7/8. That seems like a fair trade-off. And the skid pad results were identical.
I actually choose the quiet ride over the handling intentionally. The quiet, comfortable ride is ideal for the kids to sleep peacefully in the back on those long trips.
When I want to go canyon carving I take my Miata. :shades:
"Exactly!! Chrysler killed the competition with their minivans early on because they were based on a passenger car chassis and had "car like ride", while everyone else based their minivans on trucks etc.."
What competition are you taking about? When Chrysler came out with its mini there was only one other, the terribly unreliable VW Vanagon. The Vanagon rode like a boat so anything was an improvement. As you have admonished many times, please stick to the facts. Chrysler will tell you in its advertising that it "invented" the minivan but VW had a Microbus out in the '60s.
I am not an automotive expert nor employed in the business but I have owned, new:
1983 VW Vanagon (air cooled 9 passenger model, rarest of the rare).
1987 Nissan Van (bought back by Nissan under a recall. Yes, Nissan bought every single one on the road back from its owner after several years of ownership)
1990 Pontiac Trans Sport a wonderfully useful vehicle
1994 Dodge Grand Caravan the creme de la crap
1997 Ford Windstar once again, a very useful, reliable van.
2003 Olds Silhouette had lots of potential but horrible frontal crash rates. I must have been temporarily insane at the time of purchase.
2006 Honda Odyssey EX-L The best minivan ever.
In between and during I rented a bunch of Chrysler minis by virtue of using Dollar and Thrifty from 1995 through 2006.
Seven different vans and lots of personal experience. I only relate what I have known to be the truth.
Up until the mid 90s, there wasn't any real competition, you had Ford/GM with truck based Minivans, you had Toyota with mid engine vans, Nissan had some mini minivan, and Honda had a station wagon. The combination of FWD, car chasis, good MPG, decent ride/handling and space took Chrysler's competitors over a decade to figure out. Look at the Winstar and how long it took Ford just to copy Chrysler's formula, Then Honda, after studying the market, slammed it out of the park in 1999.
Sure VW invented the minivan with their bus but it never became mainstream like Dodge's. It was loud, slow, poor handling etc....I've owned a few air cooled VWs. I could claim my old Corvair coupe invented the ponycar because it was the only thing with bucket seats and manual tranny and was selling great in 1963, Ford noticed and that's history, hence the phrase "ponycar".
I wouldn't use any rental car as a basis for an opinion/judgement...rental cars are abused, base models period. I would also put things in perspective i.e...your insane comment about the Olds? At the time, what were other's crash tests or reliability? It's easy to look back with 20/20 vision. 5 years from now you'll probably post you're driving the best minivan ever again because of progress.
Honda and Toyota were NEVER viable alternatives until they copied the Chrysler size and layout. Chrysler minivans are still the BEST BUY for comfort and convenience at a reasonable price...NEW or Used. :shades:
My son and daughter-in-law went van shopping again today. They borrowed my Odyssey and took it to a Toyota dealer for a test drive of an '08 Sienna XLE. Their opinion was that there was not much difference between the two vans except that the Sienna seemed to have a shorter turning radius. They are leaning toward the Sienna at this point.
There's no question the Toyota leans towards comfort, and that's what I wanted - a quiet, comfy ride so the kids can relax on those long trips.
The turning radius is amazing. C&D didn't test for that but Consumer Reports did. The Sienna turns tighest among all vans, but it also does a tighter U-turn than the Subaru Forester it replaced, which is amazing because that's more than 2 feet shorter.
VW? The Vanagon was big, not really a "mini". It will be interesting to see what they do with the Chrysler platform.
As for the minivan formula, let's not kid ourselves, Chrysler invented it, perfected it, tuned it. Competitors were wise to finally copy them. Does anyone actually miss the old Ody with 4 swing-open doors? Or the mid-engined Previa? About 12 people.
Right now, Honda dealers are really dealing...the Prices Paid forum for the Ody is showing EX and EX-L's going for 26ish which strikes me as an excellent value. I will be interested to see the 08 freshening...I can see why the dash needs it in the Ody, its a little tired looking.
Great feel up front..more room than the 06 GC for the driver. Not crazy about the Ody console but it is convenient.
Looked at a "base" Sienna XLE...more expensive right now, of course. Not crazy about the type of fake wood. Like the three zone auto climate...Ody gets it for 08. Also good driving position.
Tough to rank the two without driving them...high hopes for the Sienna engine and Ody handling. Styling wise I probably would take the Ody, but that's not a driver. If/when we went one, it would probably depend on what the best deal is at the time, particularly when certain options like Bluetooth are factored in.
I might look at the 08 GC/TC, but probably wouldn't buy. Not impressed with the build quality of the 06, driving dyanmics, steering, powertrain, etc are all subpar. My dad loves his van for utility, and it was a great deal...SXT for $21k when he bought it new. But reliability means a lot to me, and my experience with vehicles has indeed tracked with what CR finds--the American cars that my family has owned have had major problems and ended up being ranked below average, and my Camry and my mom's Forester have been absolutely perfect.
I would note that in terms of reliability, sometimes its not just a part that fails, its how the manufactuer handles it. For instance, Toyota has already redsigned the Intermediate Steering Shaft on the 07 Camry. When my made a bit of a noise, I brought it in, there was a TSB on it, it was replaced with a totally redesigned part that Toyota is now putting in 08s. And that was the end of it..it works perfectly now, etc. Contrast that to my last GM product...in 45k miles, it had FOUR steering shafts...including two within 5k of each other. See, it was a faulty part...and GM never replaced it. They just kept putting the same part in over and over again until your car is out of warranty and they don't have to pay for it.
Its a lousy way to treat customers. Its like they just don't care. Now its not relevant to this discussion because GM doesn't make a minivan, but...it will be a long time before I ever buy another GM product.
So the focus on recalls really isn't the whole story. Hopefully the new Chrysler philosophy will be better, but...is it worth taking a chance with 25+k?
I agree with your early impressions - Toyota wins for the powertrain, Honda for the handling.
The new Dodge falls in the middle for both, if you believe in C&D.
C&D has slipped, a lot, over the past decade. :lemon:
But they've always contradicted themselves, especially when it come to 10 Best.
There comparisons are useful in that you can draw your own conclusions, in case their's makes no sense.
Which is often enough.
DrFill
As stated before, my 1970 Dodge Sportsman van was THE WORST vehicle I have ever owned but I was completely satisfied with my 2002 T&C LX. :shades:
I noticed in C&D the Sienna was LE model? That's the base? Guess Toyota couldn't find a closer match for C&D?They put that up against an EX-L Ody? The Dodge was middle of the line for Chrysler.
For me I was impressed by Chrysler's quietness of their Dodge van, The T&C has even more sound insulation in it, so I would expect slightly better noise insulation - It's kinda important for me, that plus a great stereo with Ipod connection
Sienne LE pkg 3 = Odyssey EX
XLE pkg 6 = Ody EX-L
XLE pkg 7 = Ody EX-L RES
XLE pkg 8 = Ody EX-L NAV RES
There were minor differences, but that covered the big stuff.
I got the LE-3 for $25,247 on an e-quote. An Ody EX was $26,883 no-haggle. An EX-L was $29,052. All no-haggle prices in the DC area, by the way. Freight and fees included.
mfletou1: are you sure you can get an EX-L for $26k even? That's $3000 lower than the prices in May, so I find that unlikely.
Browns Honda is discounting the Touring by $3500, but add back $595 freight and $299 in fees, so it's really only $2606 discount. MSRP on an EX is $29,290, so even with that discount you're at $26,684 for an EX. That doesn't add up.
Of course Toyota changed things for 2008, now an LE with EVP 2 is the rough equivalent of an Ody EX. And the rebate is gone, but I was still able to price one at $25,221 no-haggle.
I'm finding the same thing I saw back in May - on the low-end at least, the Sienna is actually cheaper.
Honda's rear suspension is more sophisticated (explaining the handling advantage) but it takes up more space so you lose a bit of cargo room.
artgo: congrats to your kid! :shades:
A big reason why is that unlike in May, there is $2000 manufacturer to dealer cash that essentially lowers the MSRP by $2k. Honda's got a ton of inventory out there and no '08s have hit the lots yet.
I can believe that for a low end minivan, Sienna may be cheaper, but Odyssey is a LOT cheaper right now if you want leather, etc. And even on a low end vehicle, you basically have to take $2k off the price for an EX so its pretty much on par.
Looks like the timing right now favors an 07 Ody, because Honda tends to introduce the new model year a little later.
Another thing - maybe that incentive is regional? I don't see it in Northern VA, at least not on the Touring model. Is the incentive only on the EX? :confuse:
Timing is everything, eh?
On the other hand, the Sienna LE has the outside temperature/compass and trip computer that is NOT available at any price on the Ody EX. I think the major difference of the Ody EX has more value than the Sienna major difference. :shades:
The Sienna CE has lower base price than the Ody LX and the Sienna LE has a lower base price than the Ody EX...BUT, there is LESS content on the base Sienna CE or LE than the Ody LX or EX.
I think the Sienna interiors look more elegant than the Odyssey but the Odyssey dash is more pleasant on the eyes when there is bright sunshine outside.
There were minor differences, but that covered the big stuff.
You trade off a few minor things. At least I consider auto climate control minor.
To me, personally, I happily gave up ACC (and the lazy susan storage bin) to gain the temp gauge, trip computer, tow prep package, roof rack cross bars, power 3rd row windows, puddle lamps, and a 3rd row that is capable of facing back for tailgate parties.
Consider these trade-offs, but in terms of major equipment they're still comparable, to me at least.
LESS content on the base Sienna CE or LE than the Ody LX or EX
Perhaps, but they cost less and offer packages to make up the difference. Note in my case I compared the LE pkg 3 to the EX.
I don't even think you can get a Sienna CE or LE without at least package 1 in some cases.
I think you can get it all on the Chrysler minivans
I don't like auto climate control at all. I prefer to manually control the vents and settings, so I'm happy there.
I do think an underfloor storage would be useful. Honda offers a small lazy Susan and Dodge offers two large bins.
I guess what Toyota offers instead is a large center console, plus you can actually get two of them - a 2nd for the middle row.
More than one way to skin a cat, I suppose. :shades: