Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
And regarding rear wheel drive and snow tires. I came from a 2001 LS 430 which is rear wheel drive and I put snows on during the Winter months. Living in Northeast Ohio demands decent Winter traction. It helps, but is no substitute for AWD with a set of decent all season tires. I never considered Hyundai Genesis because of rear wheel drive only.
Thanks,
Chintan Talati
Edmunds.com
Corporate Communications
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
Take rate: 5 percent
Odds of a manual TL being sold: 6305 to 1
Odds of a golfer hitting a hole-in-one: 5000 to 1
http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1004_10_cars_you_didnt_know_you_coul- d_get_with_a_stick/index.html
They had the stick in the previous generation and I think they know how to market this product (manual).
Your post makes no sense- what are you trying to say- that acura cannot sell a TL with a stick? How many manual G37 has infiniti sold?
That's an expose' on par with, "did you know there's mystery meat in most hot dogs?"
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
Still, I exempt any hot dog served at a sporting event from that description. Those are made only of tasty, meaty goodness - a fan-tastic, fan-pleasing delight.
On topic: No, I didn't know the TL was available in manual shift. The fact that I *now* know that it does, but doesn't sell very well, has been met with ear-piercing silence.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
Toyota Camry
Take rate: 3 percent
Odds of a manual Camry being sold: 1237 to 1
Odds of being dealt a full house: 694 to 1
None of my comments had anything to do with the person who posted the article. Anyone who thinks that my comments were "mean" may need to seek medical attention for extreme sensitivity to internet-based comment exposure. I doubt that's the case with our OP!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
BILLYPERKS my point is we all know whos buying these cars- people who have moved up from camry's (ES350's) and buicks-- or other cars that rarely sell manuals.. Sorry Kristie I thought the article was more then 50/50 interesting because they were about the car in question in this blog..
and Billy I have no idea how many infinti G's come standard--but if you look online at your local dealership they prob have atleast one on the lot --and those odds are better then 6305 to 1.
I've been reading up on the TL SH-AWD w/ 6 speed stick and am impressed by both what I read from the road tests as well as owner feedback.
Now I'm a huge BMW fan, but for me the 3er is too small and the 5 is way out of my price range. I'm going to give the TL SH-AWD 6MT a serious look when it comes time for me to purchase my next car, which won't be for at least a year.
My daily driver is a 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH - 5spd manual (122K miles & counting), My wife drives a 2010 TSX Tech - 5spd automatic (12K miles & counting). My wife also leases an '07 X3 that has to go back to BMW at the end of next month with 45K miles.
Performance wise, I think handling is the most important thing to me. My next car's gotta have some cajones too as my Prelude's 156 lb ft of torque isn't much in the age of mid- 6 second (0-60) Camrys, Altimas, Maximas...
Interior material quality and overall build quality are also VERY important to me. I'm more than willing to sacrifice some ride comfort for better handling.
Of course I have to drive it, but from the Prelude & my TSX, I'm very impressed with the way Honda builds a car.
Your thread has a new lurker/poster. Maybe I'll have 2 Black/Black Acuras in my driveway next year.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Kirstie...you're killing me here, girl. You just gave me a grin. Actually, I agree with you regarding ball park "dogs". But, only if they've been cleansed with bacteria killing lotion.
I think manual trans cars in general are dying a slow death. Even Lambos and Ferraris are going the way of auto trans vehicles.
People who can afford to buy the likes of a TL, BMW, Benz, Audi, etc for the most part expect an automatic trans. Yeah, you'll hear of someone here and there who prefers a manual, but they're rarities.
Fact is, manumatic transmissions have become very, very good, for the most part. The TL's is one of those. If fewer and fewer people know how to drive a manual trans, the fewer people there are to teach someone else how to drive one, then even less folks bother to learn.
Even among muscle cars, I remember my former Chevy dealer telling me that automatic equipped Camaros were outselling manual trans Camaros 20-1. And, that's for a car with a dedicated manual trans fan base.
I'm pretty good with a manual trans having done autox and bracket racing in the distant past. There's no way I can shift faster than a good auto trans can shift. Recent auto trans cars have rev matching, quick shift paddles, no clutch take up worries. They've become very good which blunts the need for a manual trans.
I keep hearing that BMW, Infiniti, etc make manual trans cars, I just haven't seen any of them available. I have seen TL's with the 6 MT. They don't last long on the dealer's lots. That said, the market is miniscule for manual trans cars, period.
Even folks who are on a tight budget, who tend to buy base economy cars, will pay extra for an automatic transmission.
Black interior is what I've decided to stay away from since it gets very steamy around the midwest. I think the Black (crystal black pearl) is very sharp....especially with the midnight chrome grill and tailpiece.
I did drive the manual trans TL SH AWD as my dealer had a couple available when I was shopping. They're great, great manual trans cars. Probably the most refined manual trans lux sports sedan I had ever driven, bar none. You should drive one and form your own opinion.
But, we're getting to the end of the model year for Acura (August? Sept?). If you want a 2010, and you can find a manual trans car, I think I might jump on one because I'd bet the initial shipments of '11s won't be manual trans cars.
I'm not in the market for a car right now. We're in the middle of trying to buy ahouse right now & I want to get comfortable making mortgage payments for at least a year before I even start car shopping. Besides, my aforementioned 2001 Prelude Type SH is wonderful for now. 122K miles and still as tight as the day I picked it up.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1004_10_cars_you_didnt_know_you_coul- d_get_with_a_stick/index.html
no BMW, Infinitis, on this list== seems motor trend hit it on the head when they put a Camry and BUick on the same list as Acura. Your arguement should be look the A5 is on the list-- but my counter would be is the S4/S5 on the list? A True sports car?
And automatics will always out sell manuals-- always in america -but for BMW and infiniti you will get a number of people looking to get into manuals -those numbers are no where near 6300 to one. -- Acura well built safe car but its not a sports sedan-and does not live up to its comp in performance- please find me an article by a major publication that says otherwise.
IMHO, the real difference in driving a stick vs. automatic is that YOU -- not the car/computer -- get to decide WHEN to shift gears.
With your eyes on the road and dictated by your mood, your brain tells your right hand and left foot how to maneuver next. No automatic (or manumatic, steptronic, or whatever fancy name) can ever match that until engineers can connect the control of shifting mechanism to human mind. Paddle shifters may come close if only the time lag can be eliminated.
Anyone who thinks that my comments were "mean" may need to seek medical attention for extreme sensitivity
Maybe I should have clarified that the "mean" feeling was after a series of "not-positive" collective responses to sween's post, and not directed to just one person or just kristie's comment.
but still, not sure who needs medical attention here... I can give one if anyone needs it
My comments are regarding the article - seriously, it was about 50/50 interesting vs "so what?" in my opinion. Camry is one of the "so what?" vehicles on the list. Yes, they make a manual Camry. No, it isn't at all surprising that it doesn't sell well.
None of my comments had anything to do with the person who posted the article. Anyone who thinks that my comments were "mean" may need to seek medical attention for extreme sensitivity to internet-based comment exposure. I doubt that's the case with our OP!
But, the numbers of cars you can buy with manual transmissions (regardless of whether or not you can actually find them on dealer lots) seems to me to be dwindling every year. At some point, the manufacturers have to decide whether those numbers are enough to warrant continued production of them, at least in this country.
In the sports lux category, manual trans cars may be stipulated as being produced. Good luck finding them, though.
I know when I was shopping, the only manual trans Audi I found was an A5 (not the A4) in my entire state. I could have swung a helluva deal on it, too as the dealership was honest in saying Audi forced them to take a manual trans car. They know it would take a long time to sell it (it had been there 5 months when I looked at it 3 months ago....it's still there). It wasn't a weird color (it was black with black interior) or optioned strangely either. It was a pretty straight forward A5 that they couldn't move because of the manual trans. I could have made a great deal on it, if that's what I wanted.
Same when I looked at the Benz C300 lux sports sedan I looked at Sales person said they're available, as a special order from the factory. But, they hadn't stocked them as general inventory for 3 years.
Good luck finding a new BMW with a manual trans on the dealer's lot. I'm sure they're out there. They're just extremely hard to find and not big movers.
I love a good manual trans car. I've been eyeballing a pristine manual trans '98 Mustang Cobra Convertible with ~20K miles that one of my friends has for sale. He bought it new. Always garaged, never seen rain, nor snow. Totally optioned up. Just a real cream puff. Now, that's a perfect car that has a manual trans.
(if I could only get him to be realistic on the price).
In my lux sports sedans, I prefer manumatics (as it seems the vast majority do). I know the one in the TL is a very good one. I've become used to downshifting into corners with the paddle shifters on mine, then blasting out the other end of a sweeper.
ctl....kirstie doesn't need me to defend her. But, I disagree with your assessment of her as a host (she's witty, funny, likes to mix it up). I do believe somehow, there seems to be some very sensitive folks here regarding her post. I didn't find it condescending, nor mean spirited at all. Just sayin'!
I try to baby mines because I plan on keeping her for the long term but when going around corners or merging on to the freeways, the manumatic turns the car into a beast.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
When I picked up my wife's TSX, there was ONE sitting on the lot - white/black/tech.
If it is out there, and I want one, I'll find it.
My problem with the paddle shifters is that I know there's a torque converter that doesn't like when I redline the car.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
As to manumatic and paddle shifters, besides the time lag and the torque converter as nyccarguy mentioned, it drives me crazy that you have to go from gear 6 to 5-4-3-2 when cornering. Even though it may not actually shift through each gear, those tapping (and counting in head) just kills all the fun.
I'm not so certain I'd be one to drive a manual trans on a day-to-day basis. I've had them in muscle cars, in the first BMW I owned, and in Japan based sports cars. Fun on weekends. Fun in good weather. Day-to-day? Not so much, especially in traffic, in bad weather, etc.
Just my opinion, of course.
I don't see availability ever getting better, and probably leaving the U.S. based luxury cars entirely at some point.
As an example of how good automatics have become, I remember reading one of the trade rags a little while ago where they tested an automatic 'vette vs a manual trans 'vette. The automatic 'vette was faster.
I know the economy stinks but acura introduced this car as the 2009 model and they sold 33k cars --new model mind you --sure honda sales in 2009 were down 20% y/y -- but in 2004-06 (3 yrs) it sold 75k on avg.- its clear that most performance lux car buyers are not looking at the brand- even with the great lease rates and commercials about how safe they are. (do the math on manuals from my previous post-- they are rare in TL form almost as rare as finding a BP supporter outside tony haywards family) So i would conclude that acura might depart from manuals quicker then other U.S. based lux brands and concentrate on Lexus not BMW (or have they already done this and not told the owners??) I think lux makers that support the sport market will continue to offer manuals (in limited form).
here is the data from 09
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/american-honda-december-sales-up-156-per- cent-80720207.html
You could probably make that same comparison between the Infiniti G and M, although the M is available in a V8 (where the Acura RL was going before the Honda cutbacks), and the G is moving down market with the G25. Given the announcement for the G25, I see it competing more in the Buick Regal sandbox.
Given that Acura revamped their entire lineup in the last 2-3 years, based on the interviews I've heard with their execs, they knew it was going to take a little while for the dramatic changes to be accepted. That being said, I see next year as being a nice one for them.
Regarding manual trans, good luck finding a manual trans BMW, Audi, Mercedes on a dealer's lot. You'd probably have better luck finding a manual trans Acura TL than any of those other brands.
A Lexus buyer is substantially different than those who'd buy any of the brands above. The Lexus buyer would not like the ride of any of those car brands, regardless of how well they handle.
Lexus' target was Buick (probably Cadillac, too). They hit a bulls-eye. Now, GM/Buick is hitting back. Again, I don't see much cross shopping with those and Acura/BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Infiniti and Buick/Lexus.
if anything, I think the luxury cross shopping goes as follows:
Mercedes-Lexus-Buick
BMW-Audi-Infiniti
with Cadillac and Acura kind of thrown in between all these depending on what model Acura or Cadillac people are considering!
just my two cents!
Bring back the legend, integra, nsx - Acura has lost its vigor.
No big disagreement, except that I could see a Mercedes buyer looking at a Cadillac....maybe a Buick....probably cross shop a Lexus, too.
BMW/Audi/Infiniti, more or less is where Acura plays. Again, the size and performance of a 5 series, A6, or M series, for the price of a 3 series, A4 or a G.
My feel is they need a sports car-- a Viable flagship with a V8-- A coupe a convertible and a hybrid- bring back the legend (coupe and sedan). Stop recycling the same cars (accords) and put out something that puts it on the leader board and not a company like the atlanta braves- sure good competitive team but never wins the ring.
sween....Acura made it's bones with arguably the best 6 cyl engines on the market throughout their existence. They've either delayed or canceled the V8 they had planned for the RL. While another NSX would be exciting, it would be a very low volume car. Even the previous one came with a 6 cyl.
V8s are falling out of favor except in the muscle cars and the largest SUVs.
The Acura Prez wants to have the brand be viewed as leading edge compared to the competition of BMWs, Mercedes, etc. I had a video interview with him a couple of months ago, but can't remember where I saw it.
Again, seems like you like the Buick. Not my cup of tea, and haven't heard anyone except you who would cross shop the Acura with a Buick, but to each their own.
best 6cly engines in the market thats an interesting statement-- where can they prove that- or can you provide documentation that this is the case? They delayed the V8 prob because they could not sell a RL - while the NSX did prove to be a low volume car-the line did use its technology (like the Vtec) and incorporate it into other cars-they also cut back on indi racing- Lexus now has a supercar- at a stupid price - toyota has its nascar backing-- nissan has a supercar and a Z car-- BMW has the M line-- Audi the S line (plus racing)- and Benz has AMG.
I agree with you on V8's are now "falling out of favor" as the ford taurus sho commercials tell you, but to be a true lux car you need a standard V8 (atleast one). Each one of the flagships have one.. except the RL.
To say the acura prez wants to have a brand leading view - i would agree that the brand has great technology - the AWD is interesting but nothing its comp doesnt offer-- great nav i'm guessing hes talking about..none of which comes to power or performance-and its styling is one that only the CEO would love.
Standard TL shoppers are looking a buick dont kid yourself..
I'll be into Buick in maybe 10 years -and in my mid 40's..while i'm cross shopping it against Acura- the buick folks are noticing (look to your right, another laCrosse ad) i woundn't knock the car if i was you- its the same as the standard TL just better looking. :shades:
You often mentioned Buick, but have you driven a LaCrosse or Regal yet? While Buick may have improved with these new models, it is hard to imagine that its cars suddenly are on par with those segment leaders in terms of quality and performance. Even if initial data looks good, the long term reliability and resale value are still big question marks.
You said that you will be into Buick in 10 years. Wondering why wait that long if you think so highly of it? I found it especially interesting because, like you, I also drive the Infiniti G. I just can't see how a G owner would want to move into a Buick. The only GM car I would consider is the Cadillac CTX -- a RWD sedan.
C&D just had a comparison test among Huyndai Genesis, Lexus ES350, Buick LaCrosse, and Ford Taurus Limited (not SHO), and they finished in that order. C&D did a good job in picking these contestants. IMO, that's the group Buick belongs to.
jt...I keep forgetting to put the Genesis as a Buick competitor. While I don't lend much credence to the trade rags as few of them drive the same way I do, they're fun to read.
While I did test drive the Genesis, I can see it as a competitor to the Lexus, Buick, probably a Cadillac, too.
Again, anyone looking for a lux sports sedan probably isn't going to like the Genesis. If they like the Lexus, or the Buick, then I can see looking at the Genesis, too. I have a business acquaintance who has an '09. He loves his.
The 5th spot went to Ford. GM, Toyota dropped like a stone.
Jeep, Land Rover, Mini were near the bottom.
In short, Acura makes very good cars.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
Share your vehicle reviews
Problem with Buick, and I have had a few of them over the years, is that it has always been and still till this day, is a poor man's Cadillac!
I would be in a CTS well before anything Buick has to offer!
and smarty - have you seen the stats on the REGAL RS?? pretty competitive and could be a real player vs the TSX-
Though the regal looks like it is going to be a decent competitor to the TSX, IS, G25, though I think they need to increase a few levels of refinement to compeltely be on Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti level!
I made the poor man's Cadillac comment because no matter how good or nice Buick may become, they are always going to have a luxury division above them that is suppose to have nicer materials, quality, features, options, etc and so will always be viewed that way among all the luxury comments!
Buick has been in the crapper for so long though, that despite their positive direction recently, much like Hyundai, its going to take several more years for Buick's luxury reputation and status to improve. I do think though, that if Acura doesn't get its act together soon, Buick will pass them in styling, status, reputation, etc because they are becoming much more competitive in their offerings then Acura has!
Only time will tell though!
Maybe Cadillac DTS and Lincoln Town Car owners are now looking at the LaCrosse.
Anyone who's seen my car has gone out of their way to give it kudos. Anyone who takes the time to drive a TL (even better, a TL SH AWD) will understand the appeal.
Kirstie...I always liked the Integras....styled too conservatively for my taste, but the basic car was good.
It would make sense for this side of Pacific. However, Buick is a huge success in China and that is the main reason why Buick survived. Another factor is that there are Americans who simply would not buy a Chevy but not ready for a Caddy. Buick can fill the gap.
According to Buick, people are trading in their Lexus and Acuras for their cars. But, I don't know how they came up with that assumption. Nor, have a seen any verifiable numbers to support that statement. So, I'm thinking they probably are doing some wishful thinking.
I am all but sure that it is based on stats from their dealerships. So long as there is ONE customer who traded in a Lexus or Acura when purchasing a Buick, they can make the claim, which is, of course, almost meaningless unless they show the whole picture. Like you said, there may be more people trade in their Chevy and Caddy than any other brands.
I too felt GM would have been better to scrap Buick and keep Pontiac and completely retool Pontiac to become the super sport division of GM, and make 4-5 distinct (non-rebadged Chevy models) and could have been an excellent competitor to Scion but they didn't so what can I say
Integras are/were the life to the brand- they got the younger (nonbuick, non-new acura) crowd in the door with cheap performance and Looks-under a lux brand acura GS_R and TYPE R- anyone under 25 would want- quick cheap good cars-- and then these owners grew up and bot the early 2k cars. Now they are to expensive to slow to Big for younger people to care about the brand.
My favorite line -- Kudos on looks.