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Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon Hybrid

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The newer vehicles have more up to date emission contol components.

    The newer vehicles are slightly cleaner than 20 year old technology. We just had our 1990 Lexus smogged. It was still very clean. I talked to the test fellow. He told me our car was as clean as many 5 year old cars. I think we have long passed the point of diminishing returns on cleaning gas engines. When a cars exhaust is cleaner coming out than the air going in, we need to look elsewhere to improve our air quality. You being in the LA area know where the bulk of the smog comes from, and it is not the cars on the highways.

    At this point the best thing we can do is reduce GHG. The modern diesel engine offers the most bang for the buck. I think the Q7 TDI that will soon go on sale is a great offering. With the blutec V6 it should get close to 30 MPG on the highway. The GL320 CDI that I tested had loads of power and real people are getting 28 MPG out on the road. Not too shabby for a 5300 lb vehicle. Compared to the RX400H that is 1000 lbs lighter, that only gets about 25 MPG on the highway. Plus the RX is much smaller and less capable off road.

    I think GM is missing the boat again by not putting their efforts into clean diesel instead of the hybrids. Jumping on some other auto maker's bandwagon is not the way to lead.
  • galvanggalvang Member Posts: 156
    I think GM is missing the boat again by not putting their efforts into clean diesel instead of the hybrids. Jumping on some other auto maker's bandwagon is not the way to lead.

    Maybe.
    Hybrids are important and are one piece of the puzzle. The American MFGs seem to have an edge on this. Hybrids should eventually be used across the board in all vehicles. The other piece of the puzzle is the clean TDI powerplants where the Euros are way ahead of us. Audi, MB and Honda have or will introduce these powerplants soon. When these two pieces (Hybrid and clean TDI) are combined then you'll have a powerplant that is clean and have much more improved fuel efficiency.

    Mercedes will introduce a Bluetec diesel hybrid in the next couple of years with a 40-50mpg fuel effieciency. These bluetec hybrids will be expensive at first but as with any new technology and with more use, the prices will go down.

    http://www.edbmw.com/blog/2007/11/16/la-show-2007-mercedes-s400-bluetec-hybrid/

    There are other competing technologies but the one above is the most easiest to achieve with existing technologies.

    Did GM miss the boat?? Partly, because of not having the clean TDI and their prices are ridicilous for the hybrid. These issues are complex and are not trivial. If we as a country switched to a clean diesel overnight we would have supply problems in acquiring diesel. Eventually it's all about supply and demand.

    The La Auto show should be interesting with all those new hybrids and other vehicles should be a good showing. It's going to be interesting on what's going to happen in the next few years in the auto industry.

    //GG
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "GM has resposibility and duty to make these hybrids affordable for everyone for country and the environment. This is good example why the goverment will probably add more regulations in the future. "

    GM's only responsibility is to their shareholders and customers. They cannot reasonably be expected to market cars for less than it costs them to produce the vehicles.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "A $.50 gas tax will generate about $80-$100 Billion. I'd propose that every vehicle turned in for recycling that's over 10 yrs old would qualify for this 'bounty', no questions asked. '68 pickup spewing black smoke..$2000."

    That amount of money is not going to pay for a new vehicle for every car out there over 7 years old.

    BTW, California already has such a "bounty" program, but I don't think very many people take advantage of it.
  • galvanggalvang Member Posts: 156
    GM's only responsibility is to their shareholders and customers. They cannot reasonably be expected to market cars for less than it costs them to produce the vehicles.

    Agreed under normal circumstances. Since oil is close to $100 dollars a barrel and the price of gas keeps going and going higher, with the environment with GHG, they aught to be a more of a responsible corporation. Lastly, I am one of those customers that GM has a duty towards , and frankly, I am unhappy with them.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I'm not certain that GM missed the boat at all. I believe that GM, Ford, and Toyota all made a conscious decision to skip that boat and take another one.

    All three of these companies are already heavily into diesel in other parts of the world. Their conscious decision was not to bring diesel to the US - at this time.

    I think several factors weigh in..
    ..diesels and hybrids both accomplish the same benefit; i.e. save about 30-40% of the fuel normally used
    ..until recently the right diesel fuel has not been available here
    ..until recently the technology to pass all the nationwide emissions tests has not been available
    ..'most' Americans don't have a positive view of diesels; to re-educate the public will take some time, time that could be spent making profits off of hybrids.
    ..it's not certain what the upcharge will be for the new clean diesel technology
    ..it's not certain what fuel economy benefit will actually come out of these new clean diesels after the emissions equipment is added.
    ..hybrids have a very very positive image in NA now thanks to Toyota's grunt work so why not profit off that?

    I would hope that GM would expand their 2-Mode technology down to the larger volume lower priced heavy vehicles like $30000 trucks and SUVs and crossovers. It would make a huge benefit to our fuel usage situation.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I don't hae the numbers for the volume of old and really old vehicles out there in the public. How many are on blocks, how many are in the woods as homes for snakes and critters and how many are actually driving is uncertain.

    If someone were driving a 12 y.o. clunker with 200,000 mi it's not worth anything monetarily except as wheels. If that owner can be induced to drop off that worthless rattletrap and get a $2000 check toward a newer more modern technology then we should all benefit.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "If someone were driving a 12 y.o. clunker with 200,000 mi it's not worth anything monetarily except as wheels. If that owner can be induced to drop off that worthless rattletrap and get a $2000 check toward a newer more modern technology then we should all benefit."

    The problem is that you can't buy a newer vehicle for $2000. So a poorer family would be out of luck.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have known a LOT of families that buying a used vehicle for $2000 would stretch their budget beyond its limit.

    I just looked at a used 2003 VW Beetle TDI diesel with 265,000 miles. They were asking $5k. I offered $2k. Waiting to hear. It sounded good.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "I have known a LOT of families that buying a used vehicle for $2000 would stretch their budget beyond its limit. "

    The original poster wanted everyone to buy newer cars, so I was comparing the cost to a new vehicle. I think that my 1987 Corolla is likely to provide better service than many cars that are far newer.

    My point was that not everyone can afford a new car, and saying that people should be "forced" to buy new vehicles, or newer vehicles, is blatantly unfair.

    Watch out for repairs on that TDI...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Watch out for repairs on that TDI.

    That is the reason for the lowball offer. I would expect a couple grand in engine repairs very soon. Maybe not.

    I do agree with you that forcing people into new cars may seem great to a car salesman. With many folks losing their homes here in CA it is not likely they will be buying a new car. There is a glut of used cars on the lots. I say get an old beater and drive it till the wheels fall off. Leave the latest technology for the rich folks. A $50k GM hybrid is not for the average person I know. In fact I do not have anyone in my circle of friends that could afford that.
  • tourguidetourguide Member Posts: 190
    A $50k GM hybrid is not for the average person I know.

    You got that right brother. At the 10K premium that will indeed be a limited run. At today's fuel prices ($3.20 per gallon) you could buy OVER FOUR YEARS worth of petrol assuming you drive 15K per year. That covers a lot of miles of driving on just the price premium alone.

    I think right from the beginning GM started planning this thing as a promotional project more than a serious vehicle. They HAD to know the economics of this thing just don't make sense.

    It must be tech that is just WAY expensive, and that is why it isn't being planned for the lambda platform vehicles - I am making this assumption here because GM has been mute over any such plans, and they have talked up all their big developments recently.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think right from the beginning GM started planning this thing as a promotional project more than a serious vehicle. They HAD to know the economics of this thing just don't make sense.

    GM and Chrysler both have known that hybrids are poor economic choices. That is the reason Chrysler scrapped their hybrid long before Toyota even thought of building one. Toyota with their deep pockets decided it was worth the loss to get the green image. It has paid off. They may even be making a profit on the Prius. We will never know as that is privileged information. Toyota was also pushed by the Japanese government to build hybrids. Not sure the subsidies provided by their government.
  • atltsgaatltsga Member Posts: 1
    Apparently - Chevy has a major problem with its doors and locks. My 2007 Chevy Tahoe car was broken into the day after Thanksgiving. The police told me it is very easy for a thief to slip a screwdriver under the door handle and pop the lock. This disengages the alarm also. That easy.

    They do damage to the door handle, door, lock and it costs about $1500 to $1800 to fix.

    The police say Chevy vehicles are the worst. They say there is an after market product that does better. But who is going to buy a new car and then spend money for a new locking system!

    I can't believe that in 2007 - Chevy can not make a better locking system than this. At least make it so the alarm is not disengaged also....

    So word to the wise - DO NOT LEAVE ANYTHING VALUABLE IN VIEW!!!!!!
  • tourguidetourguide Member Posts: 190
    That is the reason Chrysler scrapped their hybrid long before Toyota even thought of building one. Toyota with their deep pockets decided it was worth the loss to get the green image. It has paid off. They may even be making a profit on the Prius.

    It appears they are determined to make a profit on the Hylander Hybrid too as that model saw a massive price bump this year, but at least the HH comes MAXED out option wise for what you START paying in the Tahoe Hybrid. It is a shame too, I test drove the HH and I really liked it, but when I priced it out, I got the blues. :sick:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I just looked at the HH and a loaded Limited is $47,573 before TL. That is $6k more than I paid for the MUCH finer Sequoia Limited 4X4 with all the same amenities. So I would say yes the HH is WAY over priced for what you get. That extra $6k would pay my gas bill for 5 years and then some. I get more room, comfort, safety and I am sure better resale when the price of gas is lower.
  • galvanggalvang Member Posts: 156
    Watch out for repairs on that TDI.

    Where did hear this from?? I did some research and the TDI from Audi has been shipping for a year now in Europe. I've looked at some of the international forums and I haven't seen very many complaints from them. Actually many compliments. Only caveat is that Audi will not introduce the TDI for the Q7 here in the states until next year.

    Tahoe Hybrid, yep it's a upscale man's green mobile. I was at the auto show in LA I sort of gave them an ear full on their pricing and model strategy. The vehicle is now listed here at this website. It looks like they lowered their prices by a grand from their initial pricing announcement.

    That is the reason Chrysler scrapped their hybrid long before Toyota even thought of building one.

    I talked to Chrysler at the auto show, they are delaying their hybrid intro till next year. They had a Hybrid Aspen with a boat attached there. It looked nice. Chrysler was just recently bought out by a private equity firm, so, I suspect changes in priorities and personel may have cause the delay.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "Watch out for repairs on that TDI. "

    I made the original comment, based on VW in general, which in my experience tend to have quality problems. They do drive well when they are tuned up and in working order though.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I think right from the beginning GM started planning this thing as a promotional project more than a serious vehicle. They HAD to know the economics of this thing just don't make sense.

    It must be tech that is just WAY expensive, and that is why it isn't being planned for the lambda platform vehicles - I am making this assumption here because GM has been mute over any such plans, and they have talked up all their big developments recently.

    When GM announced the pricing for their new hybrid SUVs I was shocked also. But I will admit that I missed this subtle nuance in their strategy, gagrice will appreciate it.

    Yes it appears that there is a $10000 price premium for this over a 'standard' Tahoe/Yukon but in fact it's only about $2000-$3000!!! Surprising, isn't it?

    'How can this be?', you ask.

    This initial launch of the 2-Modes is not intended for the general public. It doesn't matter what the price is, OK a little. This vehicle is not intended for Mr/Mrs Middle America. It is intended for the select few that GM wants to own it. These would be loyal well-to-do GM customers who will spread the good word about the hybrid. These would be GM owners who might be in the media spotlight, Rush Limbaugh for example, who will promote the benefits of GM's system in the top of the line hybrid. These would be well-to-do Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade buyers who were expecting to pay upwards of $50-$65K for their SUV whether it was a hybrid or not.

    This vehicle is going to have a limited production of about 10000 during the first year and it's reported to be sold only in limited areas from a central inventory probably somewhere in Michigan. IOW apply to GM to purchase one of these and they will decided if you will be allowed to get one. I don't know about you but I don't think I'd have the 'clout' to be approved.

    Oh for those that do buy one...they will end up spending LESS money over the life of the vehicle than if they had purchased the non-hybrid luxury trim of the Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade.

    Now in 2-3 yrs after these have proven themselves you likely will see a $39000 hybrid base model Tahoe vs a $35000 ICE. Now that will make sense for some families.
  • galvanggalvang Member Posts: 156
    I made the original comment, based on VW in general, which in my experience tend to have quality problems. They do drive well when they are tuned up and in working order though.

    Well, after further review, I did found some engine failures with the Q7 3.6L gas engines. Strange, because consumer reports rated the 3.6L Q7 as "above average" for reliability and "worse than average" for the 4.2L V8. For the Yukon/Tahoe XL it was rated "worse than average". Generally, I tend to agree with your statement that build quality of some Euro manufactures are not as good as the mainstream Japanese manufactures.

    What, Rush Linchmob, what does this guy know about green??
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Nothing but he is loyal to GM. He often makes fun of the Prius and he appeals to a certain demographic. It might be this demographic that GM wants to attract, among others.
  • mxypltzmxypltz Member Posts: 1
    There is a law of diminishing return when it comes implementing hybrid technology on larger cars/SUV's/trucks. The Tahoe Hybrid has quite literally pushed it into the absurd and this is a vehicle only for those with more money than sense. People please! This is GM's vain attempt at trying to maintain it's most profitable line of vehicles, all the while adhering to the ever tightening CAFE standards. GM would do better at throwing their ever declining profits into smaller displacement diesel engines that can motivate this SUV better and get the same or better gas mileage; running on biodiesel to boot. GM, wake up and smell the peanut oil! You would do better at trying to modify the Aveo into some kind of Pruis competitor rather than appeal to those few dim bulbs who think they are doing the environment any good in a Tahoe hybrid. What's next on your brilliant to do list? An anemic H2 hybrid??
  • galvanggalvang Member Posts: 156
    Yea I am a little critical with these guys, but lets face it they did come up with a large truck hybrid that maybe some day in the not to distant future maybe be competitive to the old gasoline engines and the dual mode hybrid may be implemented across the board to all vehicles. I concur, GM would have served the public better with a clean diesel for their trucks and SUV. You got to give GM some credit as they are planning a 4.0L Diesel for the new H2.

    Now that CAFE bill is in debate in and on capitol hill ready to be passed lets see if the Prez has the stomach to sign it in lieo of his close relationships to "ole".
  • JBaumgartJBaumgart Member Posts: 890
    Has anyone done the math, not to see if the hybrid premium is worth it on these two models, but more from a gallons saved standpoint? Assuming that these models get 20 MPG vs. 15 average for their non-hybrid counterparts, that's only an extra 5 miles per gallon, which doesn't sound like much. But for every 1000 miles traveled, the hybrid would consume 50 gallons vs. something like 66.7 gallons for the conventional models, a savings of 16.7 gallons. How would this compare to smaller car hybrids, say a Honda Civic Hybrid vs. the regular Civic, just in terms of the gallons saved? Or to medium sized vehicles, like an Escape Hybrid to the regular Escape? Looked at it this way, maybe the GMC/Tahoe hybrids don't look like such a dumb idea?
  • galvanggalvang Member Posts: 156
    Sorry to say but the math does not add up for the Tahoe/Yukon. Here's the fuzzy math for the hybrids. Lets assume you drive 25K miles a year and gas = $3.25/Gallon

    Hybrid 25K miles/20mpg = 1250 gallons of gas per year
    Non-Hybrid 25K miles/15mpg = 1666.66 gallons of gas per year

    1250 gallons X $3.25/per gallon = $4062 per year in gas
    1666 gallons X $3.25/per gallon = $5416 per year in gas

    So you save about $1400 a year in gas with a hybrid.

    If the price premium to a Hybrid versus a similar equipped non-hybrid is $10K then it would take a little over 6 years to recoup the gas savings vesus the cost of the Hybrid. That's if you purchase it. GM needs to lower the price premium. :sick:

    On a lease the numbers will probably be quite different. On a Lease you would drive less and now the costs are based on depreciation of the vehicles and the lease cost.
  • bboozebbooze Member Posts: 34
    Has anyone actually been able to find one of these things? I'm interested but haven't been able to figure out where I can even find one? Anyone actually buy one yet?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Sorry to say but the math does not add up for the Tahoe/Yukon. Here's the fuzzy math for the hybrids. Lets assume you drive 25K miles a year and gas = $3.25/Gallon

    Hybrid 25K miles/20mpg = 1250 gallons of gas per year
    Non-Hybrid 25K miles/15mpg = 1666.66 gallons of gas per year

    1250 gallons X $3.25/per gallon = $4062 per year in gas
    1666 gallons X $3.25/per gallon = $5416 per year in gas

    So you save about $1400 a year in gas with a hybrid.

    If the price premium to a Hybrid versus a similar equipped non-hybrid is $10K then it would take a little over 6 years to recoup the gas savings vesus the cost of the Hybrid. That's if you purchase it. GM needs to lower the price premium.

    Three key points have to be made here as clarifications/additions

    1) Until now we have all lived in times where the price of fuel has been constant for a long time if not our whole life. In your example you suggetst $3.25 / gallon forever, or at least the life of the vehicle. This idea of a 'constant fuel price' is all but dead. Here is a link to what the price of fuel has been doing over the last 5-8 yrs.

    INflation adjusted gas prices over the last 90 yrs

    A more valid scenario would be that fuel will escalate like all commodities do at some 'nominal' amount every year from now until it runs out sometime later this century. I think it's very conservaltive but use $.50/gall per year as a factor. If other economic/geo-political factors like an invasion of Iran occurs or massive demand from China and/or India or further devaluation of the US$ occurs then our personal fuel prices will escalate even faster.
    2007 fuel will average about $3.00 per gal nationwide
    2008 = $3.50
    2009 = $4.00
    2010 =
    2011 = $5.00
    2012 =
    2013 = $6.00
    2014
    etc, etc
    2020 = $9.00 - $10.00 per gallon

    If you own a verhicle for 5 yrs then you have to estimate that your average fuel cost will be $4.50.
    If you own it for 7 yrs your average cost will be $5.25 per gallon.
    If you own it for 10 yrs your average cost for those 10 yrs will be $5.75 per gallon.

    If you were/are a small business owner ( we all are to an extent ) then this is how you would forecast your decision to purchase one asset or another.

    2) The pricing of the Tahoe/Yukon hybrid has been reported in a lot of places as being $10000 'extra', but it's not. Yes the prices of the current initial launch is very very high but if you look at what models are being offered as 2-Modes in fact GM is only offering the hybrid versions initially to their top end buyers. They are offering them to the ones that would normally pay $48000-$51000 for a loaded up LTZ trim. They are not offering them to the everyday Tahoe buyer. To the upscale buyer who's expecting to pay about $50000 for the Tahoe the 'premium is only about $3000-$5000. Again this is for the first year's launch of 10000 special units. Now 2-3 yrs down the road GM will have 'perfected' the model and received results from this initial launch so you can then expect to see a $40000 base 2-Mode vs a $36000 non-hybrid; a $44000 LT2 2-Mode vs an LT2 non-hybrid, etc, etc. At that point the entire range of buyers can 'do the math'. Right now it's only being directed to the top shelf buyers. If you are not a 'top-trim-buyer' then this vehicle is not for you, at least initially. That's why they aren't marketing it to the general public at first.

    3) Resale. At some point from 7-12 yrs nearly all vehicles become worthless or have a nominal value if they still run, $2000. Up to that time though whether you keep it 3-5-7 yrs when you resell your 2-Mode you will recapture some of the 'hybrid premium' and if in 7 yrs fuel is $6.50 a gall or more then you might recapture all of it..

    So the actual fact is that if you do a comparison of ..
    $53000
    ICE Tahoe LTZ @ $49000

    Factor in say..
    5 yrs of fuel at 15000 mpy @ $4.50 / gal on average OR
    7 yrs of fuel at 15000 mpy @ $5.00 / gal on average

    Then deduct whatever a reasonable amount of resale 'recapture' at 5 yrs ( 33% ) or 7 yrs ( 10% )

    Now your more realistic equation for these initial top-trim-buyers is

    A) Cost of Depreciation:
    2-Mode .. $53000-$17500 = $35500 for the vehicle alone for 5 yrs
    non-hyb ..$49000-$16200 = $32800 for the vehicle alone for 5 yrs

    B) Cost of fuel 15000 mi / ( 20 mpg )or ( 16 mpg )
    2-Mode .. 5 X 750 X 4.50 = $16875
    non-hyb ..5 X 938 X 4.50 = $21100

    Cost of Depreciation + Cost of Fuel =
    2-Mode .. $35500 + $16876 = $52375
    non-hyb .. $32600 + $21100 = $53700

    There is no such thing as a 'payback' or 'breakeven point' in these analyses. These are depreciating assets that generally generate no revenue, that at some time in the future are worthless and that we have to spend more and more money every year to keep them in use. The only valid comparison is what a small business would do. Estimate the total costs over a specific period or lifetime and see which one cost less.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Has anyone actually been able to find one of these things? I'm interested but haven't been able to figure out where I can even find one? Anyone actually buy one yet?

    First they are not on the market until the beginning of 2008.
    Secondly they are not intended for the general public. They are only making 10000 of them initially, all in the top trim level. If you are a top-trim-buyer and expecting to pay $50000 -$55000 for your Tahoe you will be able to go to certain stores and put in your order then it will be sent to you from the central inventory, probably in Michigan somewhere.
  • galvanggalvang Member Posts: 156
    Spyderman you are wrong again. Now granted my numbers were rough estimates and I made assumptions so individuals can easily grasp it and I stand by them. I could devise a very complex mathimatical model utilizing differntial equations to express changes in pricing over time to obtain a more accurate answer. I didn't such that regular folks can understand it.

    Second, your numbers for the non-Hybrid are completely off the mark. The hybrid Tahoe officially is a $10,000 adder to an equivilent equiped non-hybrid version. This came from several direct GM sources while I was at the auto show in LA. Have you conversed with a direct GM corporate rep about this vehicle? I have. Also, your assumption of the Tahoe Hybrid equating to and LTZ model is absurd. I verified that the Tahoe Hybrid equates to a souped up LT in which for MSRP is about $45K. The LTZ model contains a large number of equipment that is not even offered in the hybrid. Additionally, a 2008 Tahoe non-hybrid comparebly equipped are being heavily discounted to about $40K-41K therefore, the price premium on the hybrid is even higher. As you are well aware of, GM will not intially give discounts to their Hybrids until their inventory begins to swell up.

    As for depreciation, it was in context of comparing leases to actual purchases not when individuals trade in their cars. Here is some sample leases, again this is a rough estimate it does not include Taxes, licence, maintienece or other incidental fees.

    Assume the following for both hybrid and non-hybrid: MSRP pricing, Money factor =8.00% or .0033, 36 month lease, depreciation of 61% after 3years, ok avg. cost of gas
  • galvanggalvang Member Posts: 156
    I didn't get a chance to finish and edit the above. Again, sample rough estimate lease based on the above criteria:

    Total Lease Cost = Depreciation Financed + Lease Charge

    Tahoe Hybrid: Capital Cost = $53K
    Residual = Cap cost x Depreciation (3yrs) = 53K x 61% = $32330
    Depreciation Financed = 53K - 32330 = $20670 or $ 574/month

    Lease Charge =(Depreciation financed + Cap Cost) x (Money Factor)
    Lease Charge= (20670 + 53k) x .0033 = $243/month or $8752 (3yrs)
    Total lease cost = 8752 + 20670 = $29422 or $817/mo

    Tahoe Non-H: Cap cost = 45K
    Residual = Cap cost x Depreciation (3yrs) = $45K x 61% = $27450
    Depreciation Financed = 45K - 27450 = $17550 or $487/month

    Lease Charge = (Depriciation financed + Cap Cost) x (Money Factor)
    Lease Charge= (17550 + 45k) x .0033 = $206/month or $7430 (3yrs)
    Total Lease Cost = 7430 + 17550 = $24980or 694/mo

    Hybrid gas Cost is 15Kmiles(yr) / 20mpg = 750 Gallons x $3.75 gallon = $2812/yr
    Non H gas Cost is 15Kmiles(yr) / 15mpg = 1000 Gallns x $3.75 gallon = $3750/yr

    The difference in a 3yr lease is about $4500 so the amount to recoup in terms of gas is lesser with a lease assuming that the critical parameters for the lease is the same. In reality, dealers will probably charge higher money factors and/or lower residuals for the hybrids. These numbers could be skewed either way.

    For the money the Audi Q7 buys a much more advanced upscale vehicle than Tahoe/Yukon hybrid for the same price.

    I think that insect, spyder, just got swatted. :sick:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Let me interject an alternative for those that are considering this GM hybrid. For a few dollars less you can get a Mercedes GL320 CDI. It is documented to get 27+ MPG on the highway. It will tow 1500lbs more than the hybrid. The GM hybrid is rated at a low 6000 lbs. You are getting a proven technology in the Mercedes diesel. I could do all the math. I will leave that to those that are interested enough. 25% increase in economy over the hybrid and about 35% increase over a ICE only Denali.

    The Mercedes is built in the USA for those that are worried about our auto industry. And the Mercedes has more leg room in the second row.
  • fshifshi Member Posts: 57
    hybrid Tahoe has a 6.0L v8, leather seating, sunroof, NAV-DVD, running board standard. MSRP 50K
    traditional Tahoe has a 5.3L v8. MSRP 36K.

    I would assume upgrade 5.3->6.0 is 1.5K,
    Leather seating 1.5K,
    Sunroof: 1K
    NAV-DVD 4K.
    running board 0.5K.
    TaxCredit ??K

    It is reasonable to pay 5K premium for a Tahoe Hybrid.

    Tahoe 21/22 MPG,
    Mercedes GL 320 CDI 18/24 MPG, 3-5k more than Tahoe comparable MPG, and less capable.
  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098
    "For a few dollars less you can get a Mercedes GL320 CDI."

    Not for sale (new) in CARB states.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not sure where you got your mileage figures. The Tahoe hybrid is listed with 20/20 MPG the GL320 CDI has a window sticker of 20/25 MPG. I have a friend that drove his to San Diego and calculated every tank. He averaged 27.9 MPG for the trip from Oregon. Sadly they are not for sale new in CARB states. So the price for used ones here is outrageous.

    Edmunds has the Tahoe Hybrid with an MSRP of $52,395. Add a sunroof and rear entertainment and the TMV is $55,246.

    That aside you lose 1900 lbs of towing capacity with the hybrid over the regular Denali. That would be the closest apples to apples comparison. That is about $5k difference. The loaded Denali has a TMV of $49,970.

    Something I noticed. The new hybrid still uses the old 4 speed auto instead of the 6 speed that is in the Denali. That seems strange.
  • fshifshi Member Posts: 57
    2008 EPA Rating: Tahoe Hybrid 21/22, Mercedes 18/24 (2008 rating is about 10% lower than 2007). More info can be found in the following article.

    What Do Tahoe, Camry Have In Common?
    Chicago Tribune

    By Jim Mateja

    Dec. 16, 2007

    The Toyota Camry sedan and Chevy Tahoe SUV have something in common.

    Nope, not four-wheel-drive security or three rows of seats to hold seven or the ability to tow 6,200 pounds. Only Tahoe does that.

    The two share a 21 rating in city mileage. Surprise!

    Camry makes that with its 2.4-liter, 4-cylinder gas engine; Tahoe with its 6-liter, V-8 gas engine teamed with a battery pack that's new for 2008.

    Folks either have to start calling Tahoe fuel efficient or Camry a gas guzzler.

    Tahoe, of course, also offers a V-8 that swills a gallon every 14 miles while Camry offers a hybrid that sips a gallon in 40 miles. But the mileage rating on the Tahoe hybrid and 4-cylinder Camry show it's not easy to base a vehicle's mileage merits based solely on size.

    We tested the 2008 Tahoe hybrid that goes on sale in January. Chevy took no chances you wouldn't recognize it by plastering "Hybrid" decals on the doors and rear window and "Hybrid" badges on front and rear quarter panels

    Tahoe is a splendid SUV with lap-of-luxury ride that smoothes the ripples and dimples in the road. It's like strapping yourself into your favorite easy chair.

    Standard stability control with traction control, anti-lock brakes, side-curtain air bags and a camera to see what's behind when backing up cover all the safety bases.

    Seats are wide and well cushioned, controls at your fingertips and flip-and-fold second-row seats provide a wide aisle to the third row, where, sadly, room is tight and which leave precious little space for more than a couple small duffel bags in back. At least the seat backs fold flat to provide cargo room even if it costs you a couple passengers.

    But where Tahoe stands out is its dual-mode hybrid power. The Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu sedans and Saturn Vue crossover offer a mild hybrid that shuts off the engine when coasting or sitting at the light.

    Child's play to Tahoe, which starts in gas mode, can drive at up to 32 m.p.h. on batteries before switching back to gas and gets a battery assist to pass, merge or climb. As a bonus, the 6-liter, 320-horsepower V-8 has active fuel management that shuts off 4 cylinders when cruising.

    To keep the driver in the loop, there's an "economy" gauge in the instrument panel with a solid green (green, get it?) line at 12 o'clock. If you don't stand on the accelerator, zip into and out of traffic and lead-foot the gas pedal, the needle stays at "noon" for optimum mileage.

    Another gauge under the tachometer in the IP shows instant mileage as well as whether in V-8 or V-4 mode. Activate the menu on the navigation screen and press "hybrid" and a schematic appears showing when in gas, batteries, or both, or, like the mild hybrid, when the gas engine shuts off.

    The gauges are more fun and informative than watching a map plot your two-block progress.

    But what better way to learn conservation than to practice waste. So we stood on the pedal and watched as the gauges and schematic showed we were getting 2 m.p.g on the way to 60 m.p.h. down the merge lane to Interstate 94 in V-8 mode.

    Once secure in the right lane and using the aluminum foot rather than lead, fuel economy varied between 24 and 28 m.p.g. in 4-cylinder mode. If it weren't for the digital display, we would never have suspected 4 rather than 8 cylinders were working. No sudden feeling that a chute just opened.

    Next test was side roads, where we were able to ride in battery mode up to 27 m.p.h. in a 25 zone. Chevy says a top speed of 32 m.p.h. is possible in battery mode on flat roads. We settled for 27 m.p.h. for about half a mile on a wavy road.

    Reaching 32 m.p.h. for a mile without burning a molecule of gas also was impossible because a minivan rode our bumper to make it known that speed limits, fuel conservation, global warming and the kids' safety were secondary to getting them to school by 9 a.m.

    Thanks to the gauges and schematics, Tahoe taught that high mileage takes more than a bunch of batteries and shutting off 4 cylinders. Add in light pedal pressure; flat roads (a 35 m.p.g. reading on a long, flat stretch); coasting, which brought 49 m.p.g. downhill; and fellow motorists who don't mind a vehicle puttering along at 27 m.p.h.

    One suggestion for Chevy: A small digital speedometer in the IP and devote the extra space devoted to incorporating the hybrid gauges/schematic into one big display. Seeing what wastes or conserves gas encourages habits that save it.

    The 2WD Tahoe rated at 14 m.p.g. city/20 m.p.g. highway starts at about $38,000; the 4WD rated at 14/20 at about $39,000. The 2WD hybrid rated at 21/22 starts at $49,590; the 4WD rated at 20/20 at $50,045.

    So up to 7 m.p.g. more for about $10,000 more. Not really since such popular items as navi system, back-up camera, leather seats, power pedals and running boards are standard. But Chevy won't break out the price premium.

    Micky Bly, director of hybrid vehicles for GM, says the Cadillac Escalade SUV and Chevy Silverado/GMC Sierra pickups are next up for the dual-mode technology in 2009.
  • bboozebbooze Member Posts: 34
    Are you suggesting that dealers are not going to be willing to deal on these things? It looks like the 3LT is the comparable "gas-only" Tahoe and that lists for about $10k less and I've seen people claim they've gotten upwards of $10k off that list price. So say I negotiate a 3LT down from an MSRP of $43k (for 4WD) to a final price of $35k, do you think it would be reasonable for me to expect that I'd be able to talk down a $53k MSRP Hybrid down to $45k?
  • bboozebbooze Member Posts: 34
    Spoke to a dealer who said these things are going at MSRP - and that's it. No 'play' like there would be for the non-hybrid Tahoes.

    Does this sound right? I guess it's possible/likely given that this is being rolled out in limited numbers but just want to see if anyone has been told different.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    2008 EPA Rating: Tahoe Hybrid 21/22, Mercedes 18/24 (2008 rating is about 10% lower than 2007).

    You are comparing a 2WD Tahoe Hybrid to AWD in the GL320. Not that it makes much difference. I guess we will see if it lives up to the hype. Being an early adopter of GMC hybrid technology I am skeptical. I also know people that get 22 MPG on the highway with the Tahoe 5.3L V8. So not any gain on the highway. The non-hybrid Tahoe with 5.3 V8 is rated to tow 8200 lbs. So you give up a lot more than the $10 grand buying into the GM hybrid.
  • silver8asilver8a Member Posts: 2
    talked to my dealer today loaded hybrid with roof 53,000 loaded ltz 54,000
    ltz has 20"rims hybrid 18" rims supposidly the hybrid will be dealer allocated and shipped from a central location my dealer will discount and also accept GM supplier discount. He told me if they don't discount they feel that there will not be a lot sold since they want to get a jump on the Chrysler Aspen comes later in the year at approx 5,000 less than the tahoe.
  • fshifshi Member Posts: 57
    two mode hybrid yields like 50% fuel economy gain for city 10-15% gain on highway with electric assist. EPA rating has a normal distribution. It is likely to find some traditional tahoes to have better highway MPGs than hybrid Tahoe, but that is not representative. 10% highway fuel economy gain is statistically significant, with everything else being the same. I agree with you that we will see if it lives up to the hype. But I bet it will win the NA truck of the year title.
  • bboozebbooze Member Posts: 34
    >

    Okay....well, I guess that's just what it would cost. Seems like a big leap though when you consider that you could probably get a loaded 3LT for about $35k or less but the hybrid is going at MSRP no matter what. So the reality is that there is almost a $20k difference between the hybrid and regular Tahoe with nearly the same options. Suddenly I'm feeling less enthusiastic... :(:(
  • galvanggalvang Member Posts: 156
    I happy to see that the President took no hesitation in signing the new energy security bill. It brings in many new laws to insure our country is a leader in the new alternative energies for the environment, our economic well being, and for our security. Though, the bill is not perfect but it is a start for our energy independence.

    Personally I like President Bush even though I don't agree eye to eye on every issue. I do respect him. The congress and him should be congratulated for this bill.

    Pricing for the NoN-Hybrid Tahoe

    If you surf into the www.Carsdirect.com it will list out the Tahoes price which is really deeply discounted about $5k from MSRP.
  • silver8asilver8a Member Posts: 2
    the regular tahoe with the 3lt msrp is 43075.00 there is a 1750.00 rebate now with possibly another 1000.00 rebate coming soon thats a 2750.00 rebate on regular tahoes. talked to a rep in rochester today and they are going to make approximately 10 to 15 thousand hybrid units and will be dealer allocated on sold units. I am spoiled and want mine loaded. with these rebates I may just buy the regular tahoe since I dont want to wait. the reason they are making a small amount of hybrids is if something goes wrong later they will only have to recall a few units and not a whole slew of them.
  • bboozebbooze Member Posts: 34
    "the reason they are making a small amount of hybrids is if something goes wrong later they will only have to recall a few units and not a whole slew of them."

    That's not very encouraging. So it's full MSRP and Chevy doesn't have a ton of confidence in the quality. No thanks.
  • fortopfortop Member Posts: 239
    I have routinely achieved 20 mpg city//22 mpg highway with a base 4.8L Tahoe LS 2WD with a 3.23 rear axle ratio and a very conservative driving style. So, aside from a "Look at me - I'm green" factor, there is no benefit to buying a hybrid Tahoe or Yukon. This base Tahoe can be had for $27/28K - so the difference is more than $10K in purchase price (more options in the hybrid acknowledged).

    GM should be commended for this hybrid attempt - it may lead them to true hybrid efficiency someday. But, anytime you fork over more than $10K cash upfront (or finance it) you lose opportunity cost of the money (e.g. 4%+ invested in a conservative CD) which most calculations ignore. Bottom line, it will cost you many thousands of dollars to look green and you could accomplish the same thing by just driving cautiously.
  • galvanggalvang Member Posts: 156
    Wow, you must have a featherfoot vs lead one. The LS sounds interesting. But I need the extra power for towing. Whats interesting is your price of 28K which pins the hybrid almost twice as much than the LS. Yea, green initially will be expensive but eventually they'll get it down as with Toyota.

    Gagrice pointed out the Mercedes GL320 CDI which is a good alterantive for gas mileage. Only issue is that it is not a clean diesel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The LS sounds interesting. But I need the extra power for towing.

    That is a major problem with the GM Tahoe Hybrid. It has a MUCH lower towing capacity than the regular Tahoe with the 5.3L V8. The 4WD hybrid is rated at 6000 lbs and the 2WD at 6200 lbs vs 7500 lbs for the regular Tahoe.

    PS
    I am sure that is the reason Toyota has limited their hybrids to small CUVs. The Lexus RX400h is only good for a utility, small boat or tent trailer towing.

    The GL320 CDI is clean enough for me. It puts out less GHG than any vehicle in its class including the new GM hybrid.
  • galvanggalvang Member Posts: 156
    The GL320 CDI is clean enough for me. It puts out less GHG than any vehicle in its class including the new GM hybrid.

    HMM, maybe I'll do a little investigation. Funny, I was out doing some last minute christmas shopping a few hours ago and drove by the Mercedes dealer. I was going to stop by and pick up a brochure however the lights were out and the dealer was closed. I was thinking of this very same thread as I drove by.

    The only drawback with a Mercedes its a little bit of a "chicky" vehicle for me. Around here it may not be appropriate. That's why I like the Audi, it's a bit more tougher and masculine at the same time with a little class. My only need is 6K Lbs for towing. I'll still check out the GL320 CDI. Appreciate the info.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Yes. These initially are not intended for the general public. They are not intended for the hagglers and sharpies. They are intended for those who are expecting to pay about $50K for their next Tahoe/Yukon. These would be the 3LT or LTZ buyers.

    Since there will only be 10000 made the first year they will be parcelled out to those who will 'represent GM' the best. The buyer applies to GM to get one and if approved it's shipped from a central inventory.

    Now at some time in the near future the after the technology has been 'market approved' it will migrate down to the other trim levels. At some further time in the future after the R&D has been amortized the true differential should be in the $3000-$5000 range.
  • fortopfortop Member Posts: 239
    Yup. It is mostly the 3.23 rear axle that accounts for the improved gas mileage, but that is not good for heavy towing. What exactly are you towing that is so heavy? Over 5000# and I think a 3/4 ton vehicle is the better choice. If I towed a lot I would look into a Gear Vendor splitter to improve gas mileage - but that actually has the effect of reducing the final drive ratio anyway.
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