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Comments
To sort this out; I would start by running a compression test on all the cylinders. If the readings are below 160, or if there is more than 20 psi difference between any two readings; you're going to need an engine replacement or overhaul.
If the compression is good; look in the throttle body air inlet while someone starts the motor and then shuts it off. If there is fuel coming from the injector after the motor stops; the injector should be sent out to be remanufactured. (http://www.rockauto.com) offers this service for Metros.
If the injector does not leak or drip; look at the spark plugs. If they are NGK brand, or if the electrodes are rounded off or burned; replace the plugs with a set of Autolite #63, gapped at .041".
Measure the resistance of each spark plug cable. If any cable has more than 30,000 ohms resistance; replace the entire plug wire set, including the coil to cap wire.
Remove the distributor cap, and look at the inside surface. If the carbon button in the center is missing or damaged; or there are cracks or carbon tracks in the cap; replace the cap with either Beck Arnley #1746959 or Standard Motor Products #JH165T. These are the only two caps which are made from superior insulating material. Even the Standard cap that does not have the "T" suffix would not be as good (despite its higher price). It is also recommended to replace the rotor when the cap is replaced.
Inspect the air filter element, and replace it if sunlight or light from a bright bulb does not easily pass through it. I would also recommend replacing the fuel filter; which is underneath the car, on the driver's side, on the fuel line in front of the gas tank (about even with the front of the rear tire). The bottom of the filter is covered underneath by a plate fastened by 2 or 3 bolts.
If the above steps do not clear up this problem; the distributor ignition pickup or the ignition coil is probably defective.
Any time you can get the 3 cylinder car that RUNS for less than 1000.00 you would have to be OUT OF YOUR MIND not to buy it (I don't care HOW MUCH black stuff is on the tail pipe). Noting is unfixable.
The biggest problem I've had with my car is finding new tires! 13 inch tires are indeed getting scarce!
This is an indestructable car, highly dependable (as long as you have some mechanical ability and can kill gremlins). I'm looking for another one I hope to own 5 or 6 of them eventually! They are FANTASTIC little cars!
Some of the biggest obstacles would be fabricating adapters so the engine can connect to the transmission and to the motor mounts in the body; adapting the computer and fuel pump from the donor vehicle to interface with the wiring harness in the Metro; adapting the exhaust system to match both the physical connections and the flow characteristics of the donor engine; and convincing the authorities to approve this contraption for use on public roads and pass emission laws.
The Mazda 12a has a massively greater power output than the Metro engine did; and it runs at very different RPMs. It would be highly likely to destroy the transmission and driveline in short order. The overall gearing would also probably need to be changed.
Rather than building a car from scratch; I could think of far more practical ways to spend your time and resources.
The most appealing modifications to keep the overall character of this vehicle would either be to go with an appropriately sized Kubota Diesel or to go electric.
If you want to get serious about fixing this; disconnect the wires from the alternator, and tape up any exposed metal connectors. Then install a new ignition fuse (best to have a box of new fuses of that size handy) and see if the fuse still blows when they key is turned on. If the fuse does not blow when the key is on; replace the alternator with ONLY a unit from www.rockauto.com or an alternator from a local NAPA parts store.
If the fuse still blows; inspect all the underhood wiring for chafed, burned, or exposed wires and repair any visible damage. Check the cigarette lighter socket to see if anything is plugged into it which might cause this problem, Check whether any accessories or stereos have been wired into the system which may be problematic. If the problem continues; get a wiring diagram for this car from a factory service manual at a good public library, or by taking out an inexpensive subscription to service data for this car at www.eautorepair.net Wiring diagrams from other sources are often incomplete or inaccurate.
Using the wiring diagram, locate all the items which are connected to the ignition fuse; and disconnect them one at a time. Install a new fuse and test the system after each change. When the fuse stops blowing; you have located the defective circuit.
thank you
Your car might be overheating because the electric radiator fan is not coming on when the temperature goes up. Mine did that; and I bypassed the stock fan control, and installed a toggle switch under the dash; so I can turn the fan on manually. I'm alert and aware enough that I can succeed with this; but some people do not watch the temp gauge. I also loaned the car to a friend; and forgot to warn him about the need to watch the gauge and manually turn the fan on; and he almost blew the engine when driving in San Francisco.
appear to be going through excess oil.a few months ago transmission fluid level was dropping rapidly,although now has slowed its intake.Thank's for any ideas You may have concerning this issue.Willie
If there is a vacuum operated transmission shifting modulator on this vehicle (which would have a vacuum hose from the engine to the transmission) it sometimes happens that a leak develops in the modulator or the vacuum hose connection inside the transmission; which enables transmission fluid to be pulled into the engine's intake manifold and burned. This would create the clouds of smoke you observed, and would draw the transmission fluid level down.
If there is no sign of oil in the radiator coolant, and the coolant level is staying full; it is probably a modulator leak. If there is oil in the radiator coolant; it probably is either a head gasket or a transmission cooler leak.
If there is no significant oil leakage from the transmsission anymore; worn intake valve stem oil seals will also pull engine oil into the cylinders and create smoke at start-up. This problem is sometimes more cosmetic than serious; but in more serious cases, it can involve worn valve guides as well as seals. So sometimes just replacing the valve stem seals will not be a complete fix.
A radiator shop can run a pressure test on the cooling system to identify the source of coolant loss. This often will reveal leakage which is not apparent form a visual inspection.
If there is a coolant leak; I have often successfully sealed such leaks without tearing the engine down; by using one particular product called Irontite Ceramic Motor seal. This is the ONLY product I would recommend for this purpose; despite any claims you may hear elsewhere. Please read and follow the instructions on the bottle. This product cannot be used in anti freeze; so the cooling system must be drained, flushed, and filed with tap water before use; and then drained and refilled with coolant again after the system is sealed. Irontite also makes another product called All Weather Seal; which is NOT suitable for this purpose. Irontite Ceramic Motor seal is sometimes available in some good auto parts stores; or can be ordered directly from www.irontite.com
Is anyone familiar with this kind of problem? I sure don't want to go through another computer.
Thanks
PS: I love these cars, mine averages 63.4 MPG at 58 MPH on a flat road every day. They are old tin cans on wheels, with moisture under the carpets the floor eventually rust with jagged edges, wires and connections fail under the carpets and rear seat always keep this in mind. If nothing has changed with new ECM, look in to fuel pump electrical. Connections and grounds. Under rear seat of all older GEOs (not sure about yours) Start there to track it down! For an interment problem like this, you could take the back seat out; attach a test light to fuel pump wire 12v wire and ground then drive to work. When the eng dies, look over your shoulder to see if the light is out then figure out why.
I am in my mid 50's and my hobby has been working on muscle cars and restoring them since I was a teenager. Professional I do maintaince and repairs on Cranes, heavy equipment and commercial trucks .
I thought I would just check a few circuits find a short , repair that and be back on the road. I initially thought it might be a ignition switch but not that. After getting under the hood, I found the main 60 amp fuse that powers the fuse panel blown and a 15 amp fuse in the fuel injection circuit also blown as well. After and spending several nights last winter tracing wires I found where the alternator charge wire in the main loom between the fire wall and the engine had a wear spot most likely from vibration had shorted against the exhaust manifold and repaired that. I could understand why the 60 amp fuse that feeds from the alternator charging wire blew but not why the 15 amp FI circuit was shorting out. I replaced the main 60 amp fuse and the dash powers up and it cranks over fine but the entire ignition side of the system seems to be dead. I physically went thru every wire in the harness under the hood and can find no abrasions any where else in the system.
I replace the 15 amp fuse in the FI circuit and turn the key on it blows As soon as the ignition key is turned to the on postion.
I have a tester made for checking for shorts (Can't remember the brand right now) It has a signal generator you tap into the fuse holder or on to a wire in the circuit and a receiver that you run down the wiring harness to find the short. I has a indicator arrow that shows which direction to trace the affected circuit to locate the short. This procedure while tracing the FI circuit takes me to the fire wall where the main loom passes thru and then plugs into the ECM (as per wire schematic).
I have not pulled the ECM yet because its way up in one hell of a hard part of the dash to get to. At this point I am pretty sure the FI circuit in the ECM is shorted. So I need to find another ECM for a 95 1.0 liter manual trans car is my next step. I have no Idea why the 15 amp FI circuit was not protected when it had the 60 amp main fuse between it and the short I found and it blew like it should have????
The reason I posted this much was two fold. Maybe you have a intermittent short on the main power feed from the alternator around the exhaust manifold causing your igniation causing it to cut out intermittently but has not become a dead short yet! And second maybe some one out their has a ECM for my car they would make me a fare deal on???
I posted my problem here last year but could never get any help. If you'll can bounce your Ideas off me so I would know if I am headed in the right direction, I would really appreciate it! Thanks Guys, I hope my input has helped you also. P.S. I have seen these cars in North Central Texas wrecking yards with 250k on the!!! One good thing is we do not a have rust problem in this part of the country!!! Best Wishes
For Federal emissions standards
FIREFLY 95 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl) METRO 95 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl),
Controller (ECM) Part Numbers are:
30013137, 30016396, 30017506, 3392050G20, 3392050G21, 3392050G22,
For California emissions standards
METRO 95 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl)
Controller (ECM) Part Numbers are:
30015669, 30016395, 3392050G10, 3392050G11
------ ----- ----
Message update: I’m going over the schematics now.
Also my 95 is a 4 door hatchback and the body style has what I call square edges. Their is a newer 2 door hatchback in my area that has the more round sleek body style. From the research I've done in the past a lot of the interior and mechanical parts are interchangeable? The reason I ask is this 2 door has been parked in the same spot for about 9 months or so. It still has a paper tag for a license plate. So I figure the car broke down right after it was acquired. I was thinking it would make a good parts car to have around. I can tell from the road the clear coat is pretty much gone. I was thinking of offering $300-$350 for it. What do you think?
To the original problem I posted on. The main fuse/relay box had blown a main 60 amp fusible link and the FI 15 amp fuse. After looking at the wiring schematic, I figured the alternator charge output wire would be the most likely to be grounded to blow the main fusible link. Their is extremely limited access to the engine harness the way it wraps around between the firewall and engine. So I had unhooked the harness being careful to use an electricians labeling kit to mark where each connector went. I opened up 90% of the engine harness for inspection and the only thing I found was the starter solenoid wire was grounding against the intake manifold. I repaired that section and installed convoluted sleeves over the areas of the harness I had opened and reinstalled it around the engine in the original location.
I checked closely as you suggested under the button side of the main fuse/relay box but found nothing notable.While using my Power Probe circuit tester with the ignition switch in the on position, The fuel injection and fuel pump relays are functioning properly. The one problem I have found is that the pink/white wire that comes from A-23 on the ECM to the fuel pump relay does not seem to be sending a ground signal for 2 seconds when the ignition switch is first turned to the on position. So I used my Power Probe tester to apply a negative signal to the pink/white wire at the relay with ignition in the on position and let the fuel pump run about 30 seconds, it seem fine. I have B+ at the coil and engine cranks over fine but never tries to start.
I did find a 15 amp fuse blown in the interior fuse panel in I think the #4 location. Its the first 15 amp fuse location on the left side row down from the top. I used the power probe tester to apply B+ and it popped the breaker at once. I think my manual say it runs Fog lights,marker lights, license plate lite and some instrument panel items. I also placed a good fuse in the bottom empty slot of the fuse panel ,That is used to operate the MIL system but could not see any new light come on on the instrument panel lights. I am not sure what the MIL light should even look like on a Metro. I have used the lights :sick: before on a 86 Camero OBD1 where you counted the flashes to access the trouble codes.
I have a subscription to AllData.Com for access to the Factory manual. The Diagnostic Circuit Test recommends unhooking and/ or back probing connectors/ terminals on the ECM. Can you give me any Ideas on how to gain access to the ECM. It is buried way up in the top left area of the dash. It almost looks like the drivers sider door or fender needs to be removed to get to it.
ZENDEN I really appreciate any help on this . My metro has been down for 2-1/2 years now and I am about at my whits end with it !!
All Brakes, Rotors, Pads, Struts, Calipers, are all the same on 2 door, and 4 door cars with 3 or 4 cyl engines. (Most likely all the same Wheel bearings). I believe the wheel base is longer on 4dr GEO also.
I wasn’t ready to say cut open the harness yet I want to identify for sure what FI 15 fuse circuit is first. This way I can figure out where it may have shorted to ground when that wire got hot. I will look into it, and how hard it should be to pull the ECM.
I can not express enough thanks for you taking the time to help me with my Metro's problem. Just to clarify its a 4 DR Hatchback 1.0 Lt engine with manual transmission and A/C. Its pretty much as basic a model you could get except with A/c. I am the second owner, I purchased it from my father (53K) about 10 years ago with 53K miles. It had been very reliable over the years except for a clutch I put in and a front alternator bearing freezing up at about 85k. I think I am @ 89K now. The car has been unmolested by any outside mechanics. I have kept up on all the maintenance including replacing the timing belt and tensioner bearing @ 60K.
The current problem started after a 110 mile trip to my new home south of Dallas,Tx . It sat about two months, then I decide to take it to town and three miles later it just quit. Looking back it it sounded a little erratic while cranking up but seemed to be running fine other wise. Then it just quite like I had turned the key off. After towing it back home I found the 60 amp fusible link in the relay/junction box under the hood blown plus the 15 amp FI fuse in the same junction box blown.
I could find no evident reason for60amp held but the 15 amp kept blowing each time it was replaced. After looking over the wiring systematic I decided to remove the wire harness from around the engine for inspection. I found a area in the starter solenoid wire that had been grounding out. I repaired it as needed, but that did not explain the other fuses blowing. I spent many hours searching for a cause and finally just put the repair on the back burner. Thats when after 2 years I replayed to one of your post last week.
So I hooked back up the harness I had removed for repair. Now the FI fuse that had previous been blowing was now holding (go figure). But the GEO still will not fire up cranks over fine but will not try to fire. With the key on I have B+ voltage at the coil. I have checked the FI relay and F -pump relay. Both are activating normally except the fuel pump relay @ the pink wire is reading a grounded signal. If I apply B+ to pink wire in the fuel pump relay the pump seem to run fine? When I use my power probe tester to apply B+ voltage the fuel pump runs. It does not run when I first turn the ignition as it should. I have checked the under dash fuse panel and #3 labeled Tail 15 amp fuse is blown. I have rechecked it with my power probe tester and it blows the breaker at once.
SO THE CURRENT SYMPTOMS ARE: #3 15amp tail fuse in the underdash fuse panel has a dead short. Cranks but no spark at plugs even though B+ voltage at coil. I have not been able to check the injector for voltage signal. I am not sure how I will do this. I have a Fluke multi meter that has a hold option. Should I hook my leads to the wiring connector in DC mode and try to capture the cranking voltage where the injector harness plugs into the injector and do it that way?
After finding the #3 Tail fuse blown, I have started trying to trace the short in that fuse in the under the dash panel even though it doesn't seem to me it has anything to to with my no start situation. I started by unplugging each circuit connector and testing to see if the #3 was grounded after each was removed. I found that when I unplugged what I believe to be connector #1 the ground signal ceased @ the #3 fuse. I have not found the wiring for this connector yet but I found 4 wires that had a ground signal in that connector. 1st Green/red, 2nd green/yellow, 3rd red/yellow, 4th white wire.
I believe the last thing you ask was on the dash lights. With the key in the on position both fasten seat belt lights are on, lock door light is in and the low oil pressure light is on.
I know this is a lot to take in. I wiil indeed be patient, so take as much time as needed to think about this mess I have. I am by no means a expert but can do about any test you want me too, and have the equipment to preform them. Thanks Again!!!
I forgot but I have a high end electronic test light that uses low power LED's to indicate signals, Red led for positive and green led for negative signals. I purchased it about 10 years ago to check injector signals on my 86 IROC.I will do those test with it.
I fell like there are no signals coming from the ECM. The TAIL 15amp fuse on the interior panel is shorted. The diagrams I look at show the ECM is powered from this circuit. I unplugged the connectors to that fuse panel one by one and probing the TAIL fuse socket until I found the one that when unplugged removes the short/grounded signal from the Tail fuse socket. That connector is C1. I found 4 wires on that connector that had ground signals. One was a solid white wire that schematics show to be the wire that powers the ECM.
My thoughts are that until I solve why the white wire is grounded I can never power up the ECM. I would like to be able to disconnect the connector that contains the white wire from the ECM and back probe it at the connector. Would that not indicate if the problem is in that area of the harness? Or could I probe the pin the white wire connects to on the ECM with the connector removed and if I find a ground signal would that indicate the ECM is shorted internally?
I am not sure how I am going to gain access to the area the ECM and this wiring is installed in? Maybe remover the instrument cluster would provide some room to do what I described.
One last Idea I have is because I found 4 wires grounded in connector C-1 in the back of the fuse panel. I can never remember any grounds ever running thru a fuse panel except one that grounds the fuse panel chassis to the cars chassis where bolts mounts it onto place. Could maybe all 4 of these grounded wires be melted or smashed together some how at some area where they also contact a area that is grounded? It is a very short distance physically between the ECM and the interior fuse panel. That should narrow down the area of the affected area!
I have subscription to AllData.com which provides access to OEM manuals and all OEM Technical Service Bulletins. It shows a to Use a ECM #300009394 manual trans and #30017413 for auto trans cars. Are all the ECM model,year and engine specific. That could make it really tough to find a replacement.
Thanks Doug
ECM’s are on the right side of dash. Usually just take out glove box. I still don’t think you need ECM. It still sounds like that power supply has melted a wire some ware causing a permanent short circuit.
Part numbers for your cars ECM are below.
Fits your GEO Metro 1995 1.0 L 5spd Trans
Call junk yard to verify this info; $50.00
They should be all over the internet if you cant find one near you. I could get one and ship it if it was absolutely necessary. I don’t think that old ECM like that are worth much, price only depends on your location. I am between Baltimore and Washington. I will read your message again and do more research on that short that you just described. Sounds like you are on the right track, Good luck!
For cars with Federal emissions standards
FIREFLY 95 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl) METRO 95 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl),
Controller (ECM) Part Numbers are:
30013137, 30016396, 30017506, 3392050G20, 3392050G21, 3392050G22,
For cars with California emissions standards
METRO 95 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl)
Controller (ECM) Part Numbers are:
30015669, 30016395, 3392050G10, 3392050G11
Test:
FI fuse hot all the time! Supplies constant 12V power to the Main Relay for when needed (MR) Main Relay terminal #4; MR also needs 12V at terminal #1 with key On! Terminal #2 is to be grounded by ECM signal when key is on! When key is turned on, power must come out of terminal#3 to power up the injectors and to send power to the Fuel pump relay terminal #4.
Test this and get back with me please: When dose Tail fuse blow out, with switch on or off? Also key on or off? What ever you have to do to blow that fuse; do that same procedure again; but this time with the (Light 1 Relay removed!)
One thing I discovered is my Geo is a 93 not a 95 like I told you. Also the wiring diagrams I using from AllData show they are for a 93 Suzuki Swift. It actually shows the white wire from the tail fuse connecting thru C6 or C8 (hard to read which) going to pin A26 for TBI systems to the ECM. Also white wire from tail fuse goes thru C4 to the clock, radio, data link connector. C6 to dome light and C2 to ignition switch (key warning).
I will test to see if the tail fuse plug is grounded with the key off, I'm sure it is if IG switch on? On the fuel pump relay I will add B+ to fuel pump terminal #2 and try to start and check for ground signal @ injector if still no start situation. I was able to run the fuel pump before by adding B+ signal to Main Relay fuel pump terminal #4 with relay activated. But I will check the voltage at terminal#2 and I will make a note of that and include in my next post tomorrow! One last thing I can find no Light 1 relay on my drawings. I think I need to find the same ones your using somewhere! Thanks Dennis
FIREFLY 92-93 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl), Hatchback, base and LSI, MT
METRO 92-93 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl), Hatchback, base and LSI, MT, Canada
METRO 92-93 (ECM); 1.0L (3 cyl), Hatchback, base and LSI, MT
Part Numbers 30010098, 3392060E30, 3392060E31 and 3392060E32
Fuel Injection Relay
Key on #1,#2,#4 =B+ and #3 negative
Key off #1,#3,#4 =negative and #2=B+
Fuel Pump Relay
Key On #1,#2,#3=B+ and #4negative
Key Off#1,#2,#3,#4 negative
Tail Fuse has B+ key on or Key off
Fuel pump relay #4 does not get B+ when key is turned on for first 2 seconds or any other time that I have found. When I apply B+ to #4 fuel pump runs until B+ is removed. I have not tried to start with pump running continuously with B+ added to #4. Is this ok? No problem with fuel pump running all the time?
I tried to start the engine after no blown fuses existed by using a starter jumper button attached to starter solenoid and placed about 20 cc's gas in throttle body but engine still did not try to fire up. I used the starter button so could be under hood to observe things while cranking.
I did not get any signal at TBI injector wires! Also I installed a fuse in the MIL fuse socket after no blown fuses but no extra light showed up on instrument panel.
What do you think about the short in Tail fuse going away? Could it possible have something to do with left side combination switch that operates headlights, parking lights and turn signals?
Thanks for your input!!!
PS:I’m not sure about that tail light short circuit at this time with out looking deeper into the schematics.
PS: I’m leaving town very soon, and may not come home till spring! Email me ASAP
it started overheating and my friend discovered the fan was not always turning on when the engine heated up. he would stop and fiddle with the connection to get it going again. we also assumed that there might be something wrong with the coolant intake/circulation. turns out the head gasket needs to be replaced.
my query to those of you who may be in the know is, can you recommend a mechanic who wouldn't laugh at the prospect of fixing this little car? i found a play by play instructions, but it seems like a solid amount of time is needed to devote to resolving this issue. i don't have said time, but really enjoy the car and want to see it moving again.
i took it to a mechanic locally who told me i should just donate it b/c the cost to repair it would be over $1800.
i would love to know if anyone in this forum has any suggestions or knows of a mechanic in New Orleans/South Louisiana who wouldn't see working on this little guy as a lost cause.
thank you!
Runs great, randomly loses power, sputters and pops out of the exhaust then dies. Sometimes starts back up some times wont untill it sits. I have replaced the following with no help
Fuel pump and sock cleaned tank
Plugs wires and coil packs
Cam and crank sensors
Timing belt and sprockets
Any ideas
Perhaps something blocking/stuck in fuel line? I had a fuel filter element break up on a vehicle once, and a small piece of filter element got into the fuel line and I had the same type of behavior. For no reason, it would sputter and die randomly. Sometimes revving the engine would help keep it from stalling out. Turned out the small piece in the line was stuck at a bend in the fuel line and was acting like a butterfly valve. it would turn and block off the fuel flow and the engine would lose power or die. Once it turned back from relief of the fuel pressure, the engine would start again. Cleaning out the fuel line solved the problem.
And welcome to the forums! Always nice to see/meet the new faces. If you have any questions about the forums or Edmunds, don't hesitate to ask! That's what we're here for as moderators
It was just that you didn't mention the fuel line, so...
Hope it stays simple for you!