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Honda Odyssey vs. Hyundai Entourage vs. Kia Sedona vs. Toyota Sienna

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For the garage, what about hanging tennis balls from a string so you're warned just before you hit something?

    My dad used to have a Crown Vic and had just an inch or two on either side to squeeze it in his garage, but the tennis ball trick worked perfectly. He set it to hit the windshield when he had to stop.

    You could use the same idea on the sides, too.

    I'm getting used to driving a van as well, but at least the mirrors are big and blind spots are small.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    WHY is the Caravan/Grand Caravan THE BEST SELLING minivan when all the EXPERTS rate the other minivans higher? :blush:

    WHAT do the buyers of minivans know that the "EXPERTS" don't know? :shades:
  • jefferygjefferyg Member Posts: 418
    WHAT do the buyers of minivans know that the "EXPERTS" don't know?

    Rebates, Rebates, Rebates.

    Price and fleet sales are the only things that keep the Caravan ahead of the other vans in sales. They are like the last several years of Ford Tauruses. If you take away the fleet sales their numbers are just not that great.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Best selling does not mean best overall.

    Do you really think the Ford Explorer is the best SUV on the market?

    Dodge has several advantages:

    * they were first, 1984 IIRC
    * they have by far the most current owners
    * loyalty incentives try to keep those customers
    * other incentives keep prices lower
    * economies of scale let them charge less money
    * more fleet sales, as mentioned above

    As for the "experts", well, they get press fleet cars for free, and aren't paying for them. They pick the best product, period, often times with cost no object. It's not their money.

    Also, press fleet cars tend to be loaded up to the gills, to show off all the best features available.

    So they won't have a base Dodge Caravan, they would have a loaded up Town & Country Limited with every single feature offered.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Very well stated. I agree 100%.

    Best selling means the MOST Value for the price paid. Dodge will continue to be the best selling because of all the advantages listed. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm just willing to pay more to get a better overall package. Specifically, more power and better mileage was too hard to resist.

    I keep my vehicles for a very long time, and did some math. A +2mpg difference for me adds up to more than $1000 in savings over the life of the vehicle.

    I bet my TCO will end up no higher than it would have been if I had purchased that $20,600 Grand Caravan (which also lacked SAC and power sliding doors).
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    The GC and T&C with 3.3L V6 has THE SAME EPA rating of 19 City 26 Highway as the Sienna with either 3.3L or 3.5L although either Sienna has more power.

    Since neither my wife nor I drive aggressively, we don't notice the additional power of the Sienna while the gas mileage is almost identical. The Sienna with 5 speed AT has to shift down 2 gears on the same highway where the 02 T&C shifted down only 1 gear to maintain the same 75 MPH speed on I-15. :shades:
  • henryzxhenryzx Member Posts: 10
    My Entourage Limited - With ultimate package has the following options ($28,300) beside 250hp/253 bhp torque - 17inch. aluminum wheels - 4 ABS - traction control etc... plus

    -Leather seatings - quad captain chairs.
    -front driver/pass seat heating.
    -Memory seats/rearview mirrors/pedal.
    -Power seats/pedal/rearview mirrors.
    -Power Sunroof
    -Rear parking sensor
    -Automatic Tilt rearview mirrors when back up.
    -Tri-zone Auto Climate control
    -power sliding doors/liftgate
    -DVD entertainment system
    -13 speakers Infinity Sound system (Surround Sound)
    -Elelectro luminescent gauges cluster.
    -Shiftronic 5 speed transmission.

    The comparable Odyssey/Sienna/Quest that would cost $8000-$9000 more NOT to metion 60k bumper to bumper and 100K powertrain warranty....! For me, I could not tell the difference between those three when driving...The Quest I test drove seems to be more "sporty" than Ody/Entourage/Siena....1000 miles on my Entourage as of Today , not even a rattle ... Zero complaint ! :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sorry, I refuse to compare a 266hp engine to a 180hp engine directly.

    The 3.8l Dodge gets 18/25 so you still sacrifice a bit of economy and some power.

    Also, real world economy numbers show Toyota's advantage to be even greater. You'll see when you get your Dodge. In fact, I bet you'll change your name to hanchrysler and offer polarized opinions (both good and bad) about your new van then, too. ;)

    YMMV.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    An incredible value for the purchase price, without a doubt. You're wrong about the $8000-9000 difference, though. More on that later....

    My LE does has power seats, power mirrors (heated even), power sliding doors on both sides, 12" DVD (aftermarket, though), and luminescent gauges. With the DVD I paid $26.2k or so, so a couple of grand less than you did.

    I have a few things you're missing:

    * seating for 8 (critical for me)
    * auto UP driver's window
    * transmission/PS coolers; ready for towing
    * more HP
    * better fuel efficiency
    * more refinement overall
    * better ride

    Also, you have leather on 2 rows, the 3rd row is actually vinyl. Toyota's leather goes on all 3 rows.

    We preferred cloth, 3 out of 4 of us, so no thanks on the leather. I tend to hate auto climate control, so I'm happy to control that manually. These are just personal preferences. They do carry value to most people, I recognize.

    Loaded Siennas do cost $8000-9000 more, but you get a few things loaded Hyundais do not offer:

    * HID headlights
    * laser cruise control
    * GPS Navigation
    * AWD

    Those are EXPENSIVE features. You should expect a loaded Sienna to cost more, a LOT more. AWD alone is worth $1750. HIDs are over a grand. Laser cruise, who knows, but it's a pretty exotic features you'd only expect on a Lexus. GPS is another $2200 worth.

    That's about $6000 worth of luxury options. So yes, a loaded Sienna will cost a lot more, as it should.

    It's very hard to directly compare similarly equipped models. For instance, an Entourage Limited doesn't come with a 6CD standard. You need to add two options packages to really get it loaded up.

    A loaded Sienna, street prices, runs about $38k. But it would have that $6000 worth of options I mentioned. So that's about $4000 more than you paid for yours without those expensive luxuries.

    You'll get the $4000 back at resale, too. We shopped used Kia Sedona EXs, and they were ~20k or so. A used Sienna XLE ran more than I paid, a good $26-28k and up. It was crazy.

    I don't doubt for a minute that for your purchase price you got a ton of value. Still, I only gave up about half of what you listed, got 8 seats, it's quicker, and uses less fuel, and depreciates less. I spent $2000 less and got a massive 12" DVD screen.

    I'm quite happy and have no regrets at all.

    PS Check out Karl on Cars, his Blog has many entries on their long term Sedona. They're good, and certainly close, but the Sienna is still more refined.
  • shaky4shaky4 Member Posts: 25
    Ateixeira:

    Good post, it was very informative. While I agree with most of your conclusions on resale/value, it seems a bit off about quality/refinement part of the discussion.

    I am an environmental scientist and did independent tests using a precise portable sound meter from my lab. I positioned the sensor 6 inches below the rearview mirror The entourage did come in quieter than odyssey at 63.2 +/- 0.1 dBA vs 64.7 dBA on my cousins 2007 EXL on the same road stretch at 65 mph using an Extech digital sound level meter. My cousin was very cooperative and allowed me to borrow her van. I moved the meter around and the entourage was surprisingly quieter than the Odyssey by an average 1-1.5 decibels (remember we are talking log scale). They were almost equal on road noise until I hit an old concrete stretch on the freeway where Entourage clocked 69 db versus 75 db for Odyssey (It might be the tires!!).

    The result does not surprise me because Motortrend did a comparo of Hyundai Veracruz vs lexus RX 350 (Not Highlander or Pilot remember) and the Veracruz came out quieter in 4 different noise tests, Lexus bettered in 1 test and they tied in the 6th. Maybe your entourage tester was not test-drive ready/refined but I am willing to give any person in Cincinnati area a demo on a weekend with real NIST calibrated instruments. Unfortunately, I do not have a friend with 07 sienna and 06 model would not be a fair comparison. In the past 2-3 years, Hyundai's quality has been phenomenal and you could buy a Hyundai just for quality/refinement.
  • henryzxhenryzx Member Posts: 10
    the Entourage
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    FWIW, I actually drove a loaded up Kia Sedona EX.

    I've read that the Entourage has slightly more sound insulation, though I'm not sure if that's true. They are built on the same exact assembly line. It's possible the Entourage is quieter than the Sedona I tested.

    Also, the Sienna rides more quietly than the Odyssey. Also, like you mentioned, run-flat tires have very rigid sidewalls that would increase road noise.

    It would be interesting to use your instruments to measure noise in a Sienna without run-flat tires, though.

    Any how, the Sedona I drove was not as quiet as my Sienna. Maybe the pressure in the tires was too high, or maybe it just has less insulation than its Hyundai twin, maybe even both.

    Any how, after my test drive, the interesting thing is that I concluded a value-priced model actually made more sense to me. In other words, I priced an Entourage GLS for $19.8k, and at that price it simply owes no apologies to anyone, i.e. it's more than what anyone should expect at that price level.

    I'm talking material quality, engine refinement, panel gaps, switch feel, ride, everything.

    This is my subjective opinion, but if we were talking about ice cream sundaes, I felt that Toyota made a better vanilla that cost more.

    Hyundai offered more toppings. You can get nuts, fudge and caramel, whipped cream, two cherries, the works.

    I got a Sienna with only fudge and nuts. But I felt the ice cream underneath it all was just a little bit better, the way Breyer's is just a tad better than Edy's ice cream.

    If we want to push the ice cream analogy a bit further, I'd even say it has fewer calories (better gas mileage) and stronger vanilla bean flavor (more HP).

    The one thing we can all conclude and agree on is this:

    Now I'm hungry for ice cream! :D
  • shaky4shaky4 Member Posts: 25
    I would take these independent sound tests (including mine) with a pinch of salt. There are too many variables to conclude scientifically like temperature, traffic, wind speed, drafts, humidity, engine temperature (engines are noisier when cold) et cetera. You cannot have a comparison unless you have the vans in same condition driven at exact location, at exact same time, by same driver (which is impossible) under identical conditions.

    When I test drove the top four repeatedly over 2 months scratching my head, the Kia was the quietest followed by Toyota on some days. On some occasions I found Toyota/Honda to be quietest. Unfortunately Hyundai had only a GLS for test drive and it was not as quiet. The limited one was a manager special on the floor and I had to buy my new Entourage without test driving. At idle/initial acceleration, the entourage has a sporty exhaust note but it is whisper quiet with seamless shifts. I also found the interior quality to be quite good, though, I liked Nissan's interior quality the best.

    Kia had hydraulic engine mounts, 5 speed transmission, and independent suspension on all four wheels as early as 2002. My first minivan, a 2002 sedona ex, was whisper quiet and we were sad to see it go.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I remember Nissan did have some very nice fabric on the Quest. I didn't like the interior at all and the 2nd row windows don't go down.

    To be honest I felt the Sedonda, Entourage, Sienna, and Odyssey were all on an entirely higher level than the Quest, though to be fair I haven't driven the newer ones with the redesigned interior.
  • autowriteautowrite Member Posts: 226
    In Canada RunFlat tires are standard on the Sienna and not available on the Odyssey. Up here the Odyssey uses 16" tires.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Best selling does not mean best overall.

    Do you really think the Ford Explorer is the best SUV on the market?


    **Sidebar: Ford's gas-guzzler Explorer (it really eats gas to be so small) is now behind in sales to the number 1 Honda CR-V.

    ****Now back to your regularly scheduled minivans. Stay tuned for to GRAD News for more random updates**** ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Not even on the Odyssey touring?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    True, just happened this year.

    Even the CR-V, though, isn't what I'd consider the best SUV. No V6/engine upgrade option for starters.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Subaru was one of the major manufacturers to start DISHONEST advertising when they began calling a small 4 wheel drive station wagon an SUV. :mad:

    Too many people do NOT know the difference between a REAL pickup and a small Light Utility Vehicle because of false advertising. Same with AWD vs 4 WD.

    Honda CR-V vs Ford Explorer: NO Comparison. Are they the same type vehicle?

    Isn't the CR-V built on a Front Wheel Drive car frame with AWD optional while the Explorer is built on a Rear Wheel Drive truck frame with 4 Wheel Drive optional? :confuse:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Subaru never said SUV, they said Sport Utility Wagon. They pitched themselves as an SUV alternative, not just another SUV.

    And what about 2WD SUVs, are they still SUVs?

    Heck, the whole SUV label is a misnomer, what Sports do they practice, exactly? At least Subaru competes in WRC.

    Explorers aren't particularly good off road, so that may not be the best example.
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Thanks for the corrections. I had misinterpreted the Subaru ads and I agree with you 100 % concerning SUVs and Explorers.

    Things have become very murky now that there are no longer just cars and trucks. :shades:
  • autowriteautowrite Member Posts: 226
    Not even on the Touring Model.
    See the following Canadian Specifications web.

    http://www.honda.ca/HondaCA2006/Models/Odyssey/2007/Specs?L=E
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Wow, did not know that. Thanks for linking me.

    Best regards,

    thegrad
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    WHY do you get preferential treatment in Canada? :confuse:

    I noticed that DaimlerChrysler has also had better options for the Grand Caravan and T&C than we get in the USA. My "built in Canada" 2002 Chrysler T&C LX had zero defects while my "superior"? Toyota Sienna made in the USA had the right side 2nd row seat installed incorrectly. Don't even get me talking about your SUPERIOR health care in Canada compared to the overpriced system in the USA which resulted from too many lobbyists in Washington DC.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Same with Subarus for Canada.

    The WRX has offered heated seats since 2002, and you don't have to get a loaded model, either.
  • jefferygjefferyg Member Posts: 418
    Forgive me, Karen, for getting way off topic here and addressing this, but Explorer vs. CR-V is apples and oranges.

    Oh, here's how to stay on topic. It's like comparing an Astro or Aerostar with a Ody, Sienna, Entourage, Sedona, oh heck even a Caravan! Body on frame vs. Unibody, front wheel drive vs. rwd, etc.

    BTW, I am a big fan of BOTH the CRV and Explorer. ;)
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    Can't compare Odyssey and Sienna with Entourage and Sedona unless it is changed to read Compare Odyssey and Sienna Quality with Entourage and Sedona Junk. :shades:

    The Astro and Aerostar were classified as minivans although they had MORE interior space on a shorter vehicle than the current Odyssey and Sienna.
  • jefferygjefferyg Member Posts: 418
    More interior space? I'm surprised. Cargo space I could see, but overall usable space - I just can't see it. But my point was more about how different all newer minivans (at least those sold here in the States) are very different to their predecessors.

    An eight hour trip is no biggie in any of the new vans. The same trip in an Astro and you'd need orthopedic surgery. We rented an Astro once for a family vacation and I did most of the driving - not a pleasant experience.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Astro was built up in Baltimore, not far from me. They closed the plant, though. It was trucky and met the needs of contractors and other fleet buyers, but not consumers.
  • josm100josm100 Member Posts: 30
    Do you own an Entourage? If you do not then I don't beleve you have enough information to make these statements. I own an entourage and can safely say that your comment is way off base. Nor is it supported by reviews and owner reports across the web. Thanks.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'd have to agree. Even though I chose a Sienna, the Sedona I test drove was certainly competitive and offered a good value. It's far from being "junk".
  • 11b33t11b33t Member Posts: 51
    +1...another case of owner smack talking...
  • shaky4shaky4 Member Posts: 25
    I own an entourage too and have absolutely no regrets, NONE!! And on the day I bought mine I would have purchased any of the top four in my list meeting my requirements (not in order), namely Sienna, Odyssey, Sedona or Entourage. And the NVH levels in Entourage/Sedona are extremely low, and quality top notch, as confirmed by numerous quality/safety awards and positive reviews across the web!! Please refrain from making emotional statements.

    Thanks
  • davethecarnutdavethecarnut Member Posts: 248
    I agree also..no regrets. But, my Entourage has had a few recalls; A/C compressor pulley making noise, idler arm pulley making noise and most troublesome was when we got stranded by the ECU going out and not being able to start the van. My van is an early production model so recalls are inevitable and things are working great now. But it;s so comfortable and smooth riding that the wife and I just love it. And a terrific value too. Although I got to admit, that the vehicle this van replaced, a Honda Accord, never saw the dealer again after we drove it off the lot...
  • josm100josm100 Member Posts: 30
    we have a later production model Entourage and thankfuly (touch wood) have had no problems yet. I think all models have their problems including the Sienna and Odyssey, just look at their forums. IMO anyone considering a new import car will do very well looking at Hyundai and save a lot of money.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Early ones also had some vibration/alignment problems, but Hyundai finally issued a TSB. Not while I was shopping, though, so that was a small factor in my decision to buy something else.
  • Karen_SKaren_S Member Posts: 5,092
    A reporter is interested in speaking with anyone currently considering purchasing a 2008 minivan. Please respond to jfallonedmunds.com by 1pm Eastern on Monday, August 6 with your daytime contact information.
  • shupeshupe Member Posts: 1
    Earlier comments or worries about rapid slowing of Sedona when taking foot off gas. That braking only happens under 40 mph. Cruise over 40 if possible for freewheeling.
  • aberwackyaberwacky Member Posts: 5
    I've been looking at an Entourage limited with Sunroof package and a Honda Odyssey EX-L--I consider them to be roughly similarly equipped for our purposes.

    Last "final" quotes I got were surprising:

    Honda Odyssey-EX-L: $27,536
    Hyundai Entourage Limited: $27,216 (including the rebate)

    The local Hyundai dealership has not been willing to deal at all, despite having eleven 2007 Entourages in their lot and the 2008s on the way. The Honda dealership is openly trying to get rid of the Odysseys to make room for the 2008s.

    My price (my calculated price to pay based on invoice, rebate, etc.) for the Entourage was $24,281 including the rebate, but the dealer won't even come close. Even without further negotiating, the Odyssey is within $50 of "my" price.

    I went into this planning on getting the Hyundai--we have an XG300L and a Santa Fe now and are big fans of the automaker--and you just can't beat the standard features (both safety, warranty and otherwise) for the money. However, with the pricing we're getting on the Honda, I may choose that one. Never thought I would.
  • jefferygjefferyg Member Posts: 418
    In five years from now you won't regret buying the Honda. We love our Odyssey and have had few problems with it. The price you stated sounds very good. I am surprised at the Hyundai dealer not being more flexible. Most of what I've heard about them has been positive.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That dealer needs a reality check. Just look at residual values for both.

    I think your $24.8k is entirely realistic. In fact when I looked at Limited models I remember them being right about that much, $25k.

    Shop at fitzmall.com, they will have much better prices, and they have a Hyundai store.
  • aberwackyaberwacky Member Posts: 5
    This dealer has been very difficult from the beginning, and I would prefer not to do business with them if at all possible because of the typical "car salesman" approach they use. Unfortunately, the two dealerships within 50 miles of me are both owned by the same people.

    I'm getting some quotes from dealers farther away--well I'm trying to. It's amazing to me that some don't even respond to the requests.

    Thanks for the fitzmall reference. I'll give them a try.

    I think I can go lower on the Odyssey--my "low" price was before I knew about the $2000 dealer incentive Honda is offering. Still, though, it's not a bad price.

    Leigh
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If you want to compare no-haggle Honda prices in the same region, try:

    http://www.brownscar.com/

    They have a Honda store. Just make sure to add freight and processing, since they do not include those.
  • aberwackyaberwacky Member Posts: 5
    Does anyone know what Fitzmall's delivery range is? I can't find the information anywhere on their website.

    Thanks,

    Leigh
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not sure...maybe call them up? My family has purchased about 5 cars from them and every experience was a good one.
  • ocuihsocuihs Member Posts: 138
    reliability BEST AND WORST

    Consumer Reports ranked predicted reliability of 2008 models based on survey results from previous years. Here are the magazine’s two best and worst picks for predicted reliability in each segment:

    Wagon/Minivan:
    Best: Pontiac Vibe, Scion xB
    Worst: Chevrolet Uplander, Hyundai Entourage

    Full article at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21324818?GT1=10450
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They need to separate those classes. Which is the best van? Which is the worst wagon? :confuse:
  • lavrishevolavrishevo Member Posts: 312
    Well I purchased my first mini-van about six months ago and before I made my decision I went and looked at them all. The Ody was really the "nicest" out the bunch but also demanded the most amount of cash. I live in Puerto Rico and we have to pay an excise tax on all vehicles. The amount is determined by the cost of the vehicle. So the starting price on the Ody started at 32,000 / Sienna stared at 29,500 and the Sedona was only 23,500. I got the Sedona lx long wheel base with cloth a roof rack, tinted windows, and all the the standard stuff. I honestly was very impressed by the Sedona with it's power and ride. Not as agile as the Ody but just as much power and i have neen getting as advertised 18/25. That is great considering I use the a/c every time I drive it. The Sienna does get better mpg but with the price difference it would take me about 15 years to make up the cost difference in fuel savings. All three vans are nice but for my needs the Sedona was the choice. Ah yes and I added HID for $125.00 off of ebay.
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