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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Which homeowner do you think is more likely to have a bunch of Sony TVs- the guy with a Lexus in the driveway, or the guy with a Hyundai in the driveway? Betcha there is some degree of correlation.

    I would think so also. But that doesn't necessarily correlate in the way you think it does. I'll bet you are thinking, the person with the Lexus in the driveway is the rich one, and the one with the Hyundai in the driveway is the poor slob who can't afford anything better. What I see in the correlation is, the person with the Lexus is more likely to be brand-conscious, hence more likely to have a brand like Sony, than the person who has the Hyundai. Income-wise, who knows? Maybe the owner of the Hyundai is looking for most value for his/her hard-earned dollars, and they don't like the idea of throwing money away on small, oval-shaped chromed metal badges with an "L" inside. ;)
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I'll go along with that with some reservations. If luxury cars don't deliver what they promise and don't meet the buyers expectations then sooner or later they lose their appeal. Fool me once, etc......Just ask Cadillac or Lincoln.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Eventually, yes. I think that's true with brand loyalty in general. If someone has a bad enough experience, they might look elsewhere. I do see stories like that in Town Hall, e.g. the guy who had BMWs all his life but finally got fed up with reliability problems and switched. That's why it's remarkable I think when Hyundai can grab some of these owners from the "luxury" brands. Brand loyalty can be hard to break.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Why are you interested in personal information about me?

    Trying to dig for dirt? Tossing mud and hoping something sticks?

    Isn't that a bit ... pathetic?

    Let's stick to the topic, OK?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Whatever package gives you the leather on the dash is worth the price. Both the ones I saw (V6 and V8 models) simply look like a million bucks. Is that bundled in?
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Rushing what a bit?
    I don't think a car manufacturer has ever been criticized for getting a good product to market too quickly.

    In general: good product, but not enough preparation in other areas.

    It's the same thing I mentioned before, service quality, image, and the like. People walk into a luxury car dealership expecting luxury class treatment, Hyundai, as good as it is now, still doesn't have it. Like I said, luxury class is nothing like the near luxury, it's quite a gap.

    Don't get me wrong, the product is ready, but are they ready with the preparations? Are luxury buyers ready to sacrifice the "luxury" experience for the sake of price?
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    I personally think the interior is nice to look at (especially the brown leather, I like it a lot), and to some degree the materials have a nice feel. Does it look a mil. bucks? Not to me, the ES350 and '08 TL (haven't tried the new one) have softer leather and smoother surfaces. There's a quality feel to the controls that the Genesis lacks. OTOH, those willing to overlook that "feel" will find a very reasonable entry that gives more feature for the same money (and more room at that). Against Genesis the domestic entries are as good as dead.

    Big question is: will potential buyers feel or think the same way about Equus?

    @Dwengier77:
    But as far as I know the 6cyl. Genesis outsold the v8 by 4:1. So if that's true then one can safely assume that average buyers spend around $30-35k for their Genesis, which is about the average spending for near luxury market.

    Now compare that to the Equus' estimated $50k sticker, it's a big jump, and to a totally different class with totally different mindset.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    Not at all, just curious re: your points of reference. Your "bio" says one thing, but your post says something else. Maybe you moved? Is there a reason you didn't respond to the question?
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    I heard from a Hyundai HQ employee that one reason there is so little marketing for Vera Cruz, Azera and some others is that they have a limited budget and right now are focusing on Genesis and Equus.
    This is another factor of rushing too many new models into the market at almost the same time as you are revising older models.
    I live in the most affluent area of SC (also BMW manufacturing HQ) and believe me the wealthy are interested in the badge. Sure, some wealthy people will go for "value" over prestige, but often that is to get a vehicle that the Prestige brands don't offer. Why do you think Lexus, BMW, Acura, MB, Infiniti, etc. got into the SUV, CUV markets? Because they were losing sales to Ford, Chevy, etc. Why is Porsche building a sedan and SUV?
    I agree with Consumer Reports classification. Genesis, Azera, Lexus ES350, etc. are Upscale brands. The mid and large Lexus, MB, BMW, Audi, etc. are Luxury brands. See their April Car issue. :)
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    What I see in the correlation is, the person with the Lexus is more likely to be brand-conscious, hence more likely to have a brand like Sony.

    And I suppose many of them have been duped. Sony and other Japanese and American brands are outsourcing heavily. Beneath the familiar logo's beat Korean or Taiwanese hearts. Brand loyalty is almost an oxymoron. Some German and Korean cars are manufactured in Alabama. Many Japanese and Korean cars are designed in California and built in KY, TN, or OH. Sears and GE appliances are full of Korean and Taiwanese components. It's a noble thought, but nearly impossible to "buy American" these days, It just doesn't make sense to be loyal to a badge as it once did. People that still buy badges are either uneducated to the above, are in denial, or easy marks. I think Hyundai is cashing in on the fact that car buyers are beginning to understand the above.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    People are free to share or not share any information they choose and they aren't required to explain their choices. Let's drop the focus on the personal and get back to the subject.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Your "bio" says one thing

    Old School Edmunds members may recall in the past they had little flags next to your name when you entered a post. That's why I have Brazil on there. Too bad they discontinued that.

    image

    Is there a reason you didn't respond to the question?

    Yes - if I answer them, that would imply it's OK for you to ask.

    If you have observations about the demographics of luxury car buyers in your area, please share, but let's keep this on topic.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I agree with Consumer Reports classification. Genesis, Azera, Lexus ES350, etc. are Upscale brands. The mid and large Lexus, MB, BMW, Audi, etc. are Luxury brands. See their April Car issue.

    Up until 2008 CR classified the Azera as a large sedan, not upscale, not luxury.

    For 2009 they started categorizing by price in the buyer's guide, so it fell in to the $30,000-$45,000 category.

    The Azera they tested was priced at $30,075, so it just barely made that cut, but they don't see it as upscale, else they would have categorized it that way all along.

    So the only reason it was grouped with Lexus and Infiniti is that $75 and the fact that they tested a loaded up Limited model.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Brand loyalty is almost an oxymoron. Some German and Korean cars are manufactured in Alabama. Many Japanese and Korean cars are designed in California and built in KY, TN, or OH.
    I don't think there is anybody out there that doesn't understand all this - but they still pay the extra money for the Sonys or the Lexus' (or whatever), don't they? Brand loyalty and brand perceptions, however, do still exist, and influence purchasing decisions all the time.
    And yes, the folks out there that are inclined to give Hyundai a 'fair shake' are indeed also the ones that can minimize whatever importance things lilke brand perceptions and reputations have.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    the folks out there that are inclined to give Hyundai a 'fair shake' are indeed also the ones that can minimize whatever importance things lilke brand perceptions and reputations have.

    Agreed.

    I buy the cars that best meet my needs within my budget. I could care less if it's a Ford or a Hyundai or a Mercedes.

    This is probably why I've owned a few Subarus. A lot of Subaru owners could afford more pricey cars but simply choose not to. You might say the same of some Volvos. They're not flashy but they get the job done.

    I'm not out to impress my neighbors, I'm out to impress - me!

    I think Hyundai is trying to appeal to those types of folks, absolutely. Intentionally, even. No self-respecting badge snob would buy a car without a badge on the nose! :D
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    No self-respecting badge snob would buy a car without a badge on the nose!
    And it's when those same badge 'snobs' can see past the the end of their own noses and admit a Hyundai branded product into their 'acceptable' classification (however, begrudgingly) that Hyundai has found a 'place in the luxury market' .
    Think back to 1990 and the LS - those German badge snobs could look at a relatively high price for something that certainly had the expected quality, AND it wasn't a mere Toyota - it was something 'new' called a Lexus. Magically, acceptance into that lux fraternity came quite quickly.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm not sure if they ever will accept the newcomers. There are a lot of folks that still think a luxury car must come from Europe.

    That's why I think Hyundai will do better with younger folks. If you got your driver's license in 1990, after Lexus came out, you'd be about 36 years old today. That's probably right around the age Hyundai is targeting, too.

    I doubt they'll get a lot of 45+ year olds that recall the Excel.

    And that's OK - a young demographic is a good thing in the long-term.

    I recall a while back looking at some demographic data, and Kia had the youngest buyers in the whole industry. Those same owners are in their prime earnings years and obviously don't have qualms with buying a Korean nameplate.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    any manufacturer with products in the lower ends of the price spectrum would normally have a younger demographic.

    I doubt they'll get a lot of 45+ year olds that recall the Excel
    assume you left a 'don't' out of that :confuse: Without those legacies Hyundai has not nearly the problems they still have today, meaning that they possibly would not have had to extend their warranties as they did and/or discount their prices that steeply as they still do.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, the only reason the Genesis 3.8 is in CR's Upscale sedan category is its price. If CR had tested a loaded 4.6, it would show up in the Luxury sedan category along with the likes of the $42k Lincoln Town Car.

    Note that the Genesis 3.8 is CR's top-rated Upscale sedan, topping Lexus, Acura etc.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    There are a lot of people putting Gray Poupon on their hot dogs and immature adults out there! ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ... meaning that they possibly would not have had to extend their warranties as they did and/or discount their prices that steeply as they still do.

    With respect to this discussion... note that other automakers who have "regular" and "luxury" brands have also extended the warranties on their luxury brands, and in recent years have even extended the warranties (especially powertrain warranties) on their regular brands. Which "legacy problems" caused them to do that?

    Also, compare current rebates and discounts on the Genesis to those of competitors. What do you see? What is the rebate on the Genesis right now (and for its entire history), for example? Zero. What are the legacy problems that are causing other automakers to discount their cars as steeply as they do?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    other automakers who have "regular" and "luxury" brands have also extended the warranties on their luxury brands
    yep, those stalwart D3 brands with similar legacies have certainly extended their warranties as you note. They had to - much like Hyundai had to years ago. BMW started throwing in regular maintanence because their dealers were getting a justifiably bad rep. But if want to talk about the J3 extending warranties on any of their products (regular or lux brands) -(36/60- then I don't know what you are talking about :confuse:
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    to figure things out is this:
    Imagine yourself in the market for $30-40k car and $50k car. You have the cash, ready to buy. What will be the first 3 models that come in your mind for each category?
    Be honest with yourselves, will a Genesis or Equus be on top of your list? I bet it'll be no for most people.

    This is the type of mindset Hyundai is facing.

    The way I see it:
    Genesis faces far less competition. Acura went cuckoo with the new TL, while domestics are practically shooting themselves in the foot. Leaving only Lexus ES and Infiniti G ( albeit a bit extreme for some) the actual competitors. I can see why it's considered the top upscale car.

    Equus is a whole different story, with dozens of far more established not to mention more refined competitors it'll be hard to compete without the right cards, the cards that Hyundai doesn't have yet IMO.

    PS: I don't believe the J3 started all this "Luxury Division" thing in US. I believe the Americans started this themselves with Chevy-Buick-Cadillac and Ford-Mercury-Lincoln. The Japanese did not create this mindset, Americans already have it since I don't know when.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    any manufacturer with products in the lower ends of the price spectrum would normally have a younger demographic

    A happy coincidence for them.

    To clarify - I meant I do not think that older buyers that recall the awful Excel and Scoupe will aspire to own a Genesis.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They don't even use the words Upscale or Luxury, at least in their 2009 buyer's guide. They go strictly by price range.

    I'm sure if they still did, the Genesis would fall in to the Upscale.

    In 2008, the Saab 9-3 was listed as an Upscale sedan, while the pricier Avalon was under Large sedans. So they didn't used to go by price.

    I guess it got harder to categorize what's what, so they changed it to just a price cut-off.

    Having said that, I seriously doubt CR would have put the Genesis under Large Sedans, and they don't have a Really Large Sedan category. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Imagine yourself in the market for $30-40k car and $50k car

    Good question, but I think we really have to split that in to 2 questions.

    Imagine yourself in the market for $30-40k car

    Would I test drive the Genesis? Yes. Without a doubt.

    You mention the TL, but the fact is the TSX V6 is closer in price to the Genesis 3.8, making the latter a screaming bargain. To be honest I tend to prefer small and sporty, so I can't say it would be at the top of my list, but it might be at the top of my wife's list, after she just sat inside one and said "WOW".

    Now question #2:

    Imagine yourself in the market for a $50k car

    Hard for me to imagine. I'm far too practical and can't imagine spending that much on any car, in fact if I had that sort of money I'd buy 2.

    In fact that's what I did, a Miata and a Sienna.

    If I had to spend $50 grand on one car? No, I do not think Equus would be on my short list. I'd sit inside one out of curiosity, but I think it's ugly and that alone would keep me away. Ironically I'd be more likely to get a Genesis 4.6 loaded up and pocket the change.

    There's no doubt Hyundai has a much bigger obstacle getting people to pay $50 large, but I'm sure projected volumes are much smaller.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Think back to 1990 and the LS - those German badge snobs could look at a relatively high price for something that certainly had the expected quality, AND it wasn't a mere Toyota -

    That's a major difference in the way you and I think. I always have and always will think of the Lexus as a Toyota. That's a good thing, actually. It wasn't a good thing back when Toyota gave their loyal owners the shaft by artifically jacking up the price. (when they spun off Lexus at huge expense).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not to mention the price was not high - low 30s for the V8 IIRC.

    Shockingly low price, actually.

    The Europeans actually had to adjust prices downward later and/or add content.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    If Toyota had simply released the Lexus under the Toyota name, without all the marketing razzle-dazzle, I bet they could have sold the car $2K cheaper. And they would have sold well, too.

    Top of the line cars should be loyalty perks for owners that move up. There should be a bigger, better car stationed every $2-$4K up the line. Hyundai is doing an excellent job with their line.

    The Toyota line still has very weak warranties, and their prices are thousands more than comparable Hyundai's. Do you know what that you get for those extra thousands? Nothing! They're extra profits for Toyota. I bet Toyota's profits are obscene, because manufacturing costs are probably very close. Toyota's may even be cheaper to build.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Do you know what that you get for those extra thousands? Nothing!

    It may depend on the model, but I didn't really feel that way about the Hyundai Entourage vs. the Toyota Sienna.

    Everyone kept telling me it would be $5 grand less, but the real difference once similarly equipped was closer to $2 grand. The Sienna is wider, offered 8 seats, had more HP, and slightly better materials.

    Funny thing is, I feel like the Entourage did not match some other Hyundais for interior quality - the Azera and Veracruz were much nicer inside, particularly the leather.

    Also, ALG rated resale for the Entourage at just 1 star, their worst possible score. Other Hyundais do much better. The Veracruz gets a shocking 5 stars!

    Let's just say Entourage wasn't the strongest vehicle in their lineup. No wonder they cancelled it.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    don't know that you are giving us 45 pluses enough credit - while it is true that as a group there might be a little more Missouri show-me mentality we might also remember what crappola the Japanese foisted on us initially, only to eventually get to a point that most of us would likely agree on a generally higher J3 quality standard. Sure, Hyundai, GM, Chrysler (or anybody FTM) can improve - it's been done before - we just might be a little harder 'sell' ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    when Toyota gave their loyal owners the shaft by artifically jacking up the price. (when they spun off Lexus at huge expense).
    one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever read on these forums. HOW exactly do you think that Toyota shafted anybody when they could sell every LS and ES they could make, provided the consumer with perhaps the most reliable and well built line of cars ever made and lastly didn't have a huge expense at all establishing Lexus and more likely they made money at it. I assure you and every other 'H' fanboy on these forums that a Lexus is worth precisely what they sell for, no more or less, and NOT what you think they are 'worth'. Dealer frnchise fees are astronomical BTW , not to mention the costs to build those palaces now called the Lexus dealer. The line of dealers ready to pay for the privilege of selling the new brand stretched as far as the eye could see back in the late 80s . IF only Hyundai had that kind of following a few years back (whenever they came up with the Genesis idea) then we likely would have 'proper' lux Genesis dealers.
    But you see, this is the kind of thing that can happen when you've properly earned a quality reputation in the car business - something Hyundai still is waiting on.......
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, you don't know what I am talking about, do you? The J3 used to have 3/36 powertrain warranties, now they're 5/60k. And their luxury brands have longer warranties, base and powertrain, than their regular brands. Why did they do that? What legacy problems made them do that? :confuse:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    we just might be a little harder 'sell'

    Well said.

    I guess at 40 I'm a bit young to have known that older Japanese crappola. All I remember is TV ads for the Tercel that got something like 100 miles per gallon and my dad complaining about gas prices while driving a land yacht-sized Buick.

    I was meant to drive small cars even from a young age.

    I was in college when Hyundai started up in the US, so new Excels for $4995 seemed attractive at the time, until you saw the 2 year old used ones selling for $2000, and looking like, well, crap.

    Hyundai has come a long, long way. They made great strides in the 90s, but I think they've made another push recently. On some models - not all.

    Also, powertrains have improved tremendously, and that's a more recent phenomenon. They used to be underpowered and inefficient, even half a decade ago (170hp V6s?). Now they're more competitive.

    Sadly, the Entourage was more old-school Kia than new-school Hyundai. I followed those threads for a while and they had some alignment and tire wear issues. Good torque, neat shift control, and loved the electro-luminescent gauges on the Limited model only (the Sedona doesn't get those), but the bones were pure Kia. :(

    I look forward to the next generation Sedona, though.

    Just looked it up - Acura TSX V6 is *GASP* $35,660.

    You almost have to buy a Genesis.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Good thing I bought my first Hyundai at age 44. If I had waited one more year, I probably would have paid $6000 more for that underpowered, noisy Civic that was my 2nd choice. ;)

    The thing about considering a Hyundai, whether a Genesis or something else, is it encourages the buyer to make a thoughtful, well-researched decision. That takes some time and effort. It's much easier to just drive on over to the MB or Lexus or Acura dealership and pick out a color and options package. With Hyundai, especially a +$30k one like the Genesis, it's more like, "Hmm, this looks like a good car for me, but they are new to this market. So I'd better check it out."
  • dwengier77dwengier77 Member Posts: 30
    I have to say again i work with a good number of people in my career. I have found that in my experience, most of the wealthier people i have met are not as brand conscience as people think, however it is a different story for those who make a lot of money but have relatively little savings. These are the folks in my experience who are buying the badges that they can barely afford. I work with a lot of doctors and you would be amazed at the peer pressure in that community. A high percentage of my doctor clients are buying the badges and status symbols, but not really saving.
    SOOOO my point is the truly wealthy in my experience really have no problem driving the Towncars, Cadillac, or Hyundai. For them it is the deal and comfort they get that is important.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    Interesting thought. However, I have spent many years working and living among doctors, attorneys, plant owners, plant managers, business owners and so forth. Based on my experience the truly wealthy ones are as prone to drive a prestige/badge brand as the nouveau riche ones.
    While some do drive Fords, Chevy's and so forth as daily drivers, it is often because their friends own those dealerships and they try to support them. Look in the garage though and you'll likely see Lexus, MB, Audi, etc.
    According to Wall Street Journal, luxury brand sales are going down, as are just about all except Hyundai and a couple of others. However, what will be happening a year from now when the economy (hopefully) has returned to normal?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    and I think that it's because in this economy the value quotient goes up even more than during "normal" economic times. Things are tough all over, though signs are showing lately that we're coming out of this severe downturn.

    It is hard to beat the value of a Kia, and now with Peter Schreyer(ex-Audi Motors Design Chief) as Design Chief the new Kia's are downright sharp looking.

    Heck, I have always loved Kia bodystyling. I thought my 1999 Kia Sephia blew Honda's Civic and Toyota's Corolla stying cleanly out of the water. Now, with the Forte Kia can truly glean much more of the open automotive compact carbuying market.

    If Mitsubishi hadn't designed such a beautiful automobile in my 2008 Lancer GTS I would've held on to my '01 Kia Sportage 4X4 until this new Kia Forte 4-dr. sedan came out. Both Mitsubishi and Kia offer the great 10 year and 100,000 mile Warranty, too, which is a great addition to your purchase for peace of mind.

    But it has truly been heartwarming to watch what the American people have done during this depression in making new carbuying decisions in buying Kia's. Americans are a pretty smart people, that we are. :shades:

    The following information comes from the Kia World website, posted on September 11, 2009.

    Kia sales increases 24 percent in August 2009. Kia Forte (Cerato) leads Sportage and Rio in second and third spot.

    Kia reported its global sales figures for passenger cars, recreational vehicles (RVs), and commercial vehicles for August 2009, recording a total of 139,656 units sold. This figure represents a year-on-year increase of 24.1%.

    To date in 2009, Kia’s best selling model in overseas markets has been the C-segment Cerato (known as ‘Spectra’ or ‘Forte’ in some markets) with 180,184 units sold. Kia’s Sportage compact SUV and the B-segment Rio followed closely with 111,868 and 108,760 units sold, respectively. The C-segment cee’d takes fourth place with 80,705 units sold, while the Picanto completes the top five with 62,590 units sold.

    By region, Kia posted year-on-year sales increases in China (21,770 units sold, a 104.9% year-on-year increase), North America (44,870 units sold, a 55.0% year-on-year increase) and Korea (25,184 units, an 8.1% year-on-year increase).

    Cumulatively, through the first eight months of 2009, Kia’s global sales increased by 8.5% year-on-year and reached 1,032,572 units. The Chinese market experienced the highest gain with 141,513 units sold to date, representing a 39.4% increase. Korea, general markets, and North America showed cumulative year-on-year sales increases of 23.3% (252,519 units sold), 10.3% (185,223 units sold) and 4.9% (248,838 units sold), respectively.

    In terms of vehicle category sold overseas, Kia’s recreational and passenger vehicles achieved year-on-year increases in August of 31.1% (39,183 units) and 30.2% (72,549 units), respectively.

    Hyoung-Keun Lee, President of Kia Motors Corporation, said “We are very encouraged that in August we have already surpassed the million unit global sales mark, despite the various and difficult challenges facing the automotive industry. These results are promising and we look forward to carrying this momentum through to the final quarter of 2009.”

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Um, those are 2 separate questions, I was just too lazy to retype the whole thing :P

    In the 30-40k market Genesis is very tempting, no doubt. And like you said, the v6 TSX counts, and falls short miserably in both size and features. I prefer G37 myself, and those looking for sporty sedans won't even look at Gen. OTOH those shopping Lexus and Acura will find Gen very tempting.

    50k class, nuff said. :shades: Equus won't even make it to the list of most people, IMO.

    @Bobad:
    Toyota wouldn't have sold Lexus with Toyota badge because they wanted to quickly move on from their old image. They gave totally different customer service to their customers vs. Toyota customers, it'll be hard to understand unless one experienced it him/herself.
    The "luxury" experience and service is worth the extra $$$ in most cases. Is it possible to shave $2k if the car's sold under Toyota brand? Maybe, but not that much, if you compare the prices to the prices of the same unit under Toyota name in other countries you'll see that the prices are similar, be it Toy badged or Lexus badged.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    In response to: what do I get for the extra $$$ I pay for a Japanese competitor vs. Hyundai?

    I say it depends on model. Elantra/Sonata vs. Camry? Let's see... I get better cabin, more refinement, better ride and comfier seats (but I get worse product fit-finish :P ), and the big hit: resale value. Comparing SantaFe vs. Highlander, different story, there isn't much advantage Toyota has in this area IMO.

    Just my 2 cents. :shades:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You mean Elantra vs. Corolla, right?

    Personally I'd take the cabin of the Sonata, even the current one, over the Camry's any day. And have you seen the 2011 Sonata's cabin--and everything else?
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    The fit and finish of my Elantra is equal that of either the Civic or Corolla. I spent weeks visiting dealers prior to purchase with a tape measure and vernier caliper on this one! And, resale... while still lagging behind Honda and Toyota, Hyundai has recently made giant strides in this area. I was recently offered only $3K less than I paid for my Elantra, and it's almost 3 years old. Times are "a changing"...
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Which is a good thing, I personally find Toyotas' resale value overrated, and it's about time Hyundais get a little more respect.

    Corolla's fit and finish is still above Elantra's, but Camry's fit-finish is horrific for a Toyota (hell, I doubt it'll pass for Hyundai nowadays). Mismatched panel gaps and rattling dash is getting overly common in Camrys, and taht's not a good thing (but good news for Hyundai ;) ).

    @Backy: Yeah, you're right I mean the Sonata vs. Camry, Elantra vs. Corolla, I forgot to type the Corolla :P

    And no, I haven't seen the upcoming products' interior yet. Any link you can share?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    @Bobad:
    Toyota wouldn't have sold Lexus with Toyota badge because they wanted to quickly move on from their old image. They gave totally different customer service to their customers vs. Toyota customers, it'll be hard to understand unless one experienced it him/herself.
    The "luxury" experience and service is worth the extra $$$ in most cases. Is it possible to shave $2k if the car's sold under Toyota brand? Maybe, but not that much, if you compare the prices to the prices of the same unit under Toyota name in other countries you'll see that the prices are similar, be it Toy badged or Lexus badged.

    I've experienced it. I just don't buy into it.

    It's my opinion against your's, because we'll never know. I am simply saying that Lexus under the Toyota badge (and the promise of somewhat better service) would have sold just as well or better than under the Lexus spin-off banner. That whole spinoff was to take advantage of Toyota's popularity, and to scam dealers and buyers out of money. You see, Toyota could have sold Lexus a lot cheaper without all the voodoo marketing, and they would have sold just as well. By the time Lexus arrived, people were already sold on the quality and value of Toyota cars.

    I hope Hyundai has the decency to not do that. So far, so good.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Since the Sonata isn't considered (by anyone I'd guess) a "luxury" car, probably better not to continue that discussion here. There's a discussion on the 2011 Sonata in Town Hall with links to lots of pics. It's due here in early 2010.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    I have know many people who purchased Lexus' because they were NOT Toyota's, but had Toyota's reputation for reliability. They were willing to pay the extra for the badge and the prestige.
    It took Lexus a year or two to get there, but they got there.
    While some people may cross shop Lexus ES350 and Avalon or even Camry XLE, doubt there are very many.
    In marketing, the name matters - in cars, clothes, appliances and many other products. Maybe not to all, but to many.
    BTW, may want to check out the Wall Street Journal's monthly data on automobile sales. Think Hyundai went from a 2.3 to a 3.3 market share or something like that and had large increase in sales. Kia was probably about the same. This gives a somewhat more balanced view than just XX% increase in sales.
    Question is will they be able to hold on to it when economy improves and Detroit Three bring out more economical cars? Let's hope so - more competition is good.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    have know many people who purchased Lexus' because they were NOT Toyota's,

    I don't doubt that a bit. However, it makes no sense to me, at least not since I was 17 years old.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    It could've been a bit cheaper. But not by much IMO. In comparison, Toyota Aristo (sold as GS300 in US) cost only about $500-1000 less than it's Lexus twin. HK market is a good place for comparison as it has pretty much every brand in existence in it's market.

    Another problem is would it have sold so well in US market?

    Overseas market didn't need Lexus, Toyota had the huge success with cars like Crown and Celsior, enough to sell luxury Toyotas without the need of a new badge.

    From what I see the problem isn't just the manufacturers' strategy, it's the US consumers that demand their luxury cars not to be tied up with economy nameplates. Like I said earlier, it started with Cadillac and Lincoln, not Lexus.

    The only way to change this is to change the American mindset, and it's not an easy job.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The only way to change this is to change the American mindset, and it's not an easy job.

    Truer words were never spoken! We've seen examples of that in microcosm in this discussion. What puzzles me is, mindset inevitably changes. Why wait for the inevitable, and miss out on a good thing?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I prefer G37 myself, and those looking for sporty sedans won't even look at Gen

    Can't argue with that, it's my favorite in that segment as well, especially since you can get one for a BMW 1-series price and it just about matches the 3-series in most ways.

    For us, though, it would depend. I'd want a sports sedan, but my wife would probably opt for the more luxurious Genesis, if it were hers primarily.

    Any how, we're not even shopping in the sedan segment. I have a minivan (trip vehicle) and a roadster (fun commuter/errands), and she has an AWD crossover, which is our winter car. Each vehicle serves a different need.

    A luxury sedan would probably make a comfortable trip car, but no sedan can match the acreage a minivan provides, and with kids that's what we need right now.

    Perhaps when the nest is empty. :shades:
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