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Comments
I'm not into exploitation, especially when I'm on the wrong end. But,,, there's a sucker born every minute (I guess every 20 seconds these days).
So, guess how many cars have been returned as of September under this program? Anyone?
1988 Excel 3 door GLS
1992 Scoupe LS
1998 Sonata GLS
2001 Santa Fe GLS
2007 Santa Fe Limited
2008 Veracruz Limited-Current vehicle
Why do I hate all the positive Hyundai press and great sales? The cat is out of the bag and the sweetheart deals of yesterday are gone. I used to consider Hyundai and a hidden treasure. You always got so much car for ridiculous money as you could always negotiate unbelievable deals. Less so now it seems.
I've not only watched Hyundai quality grow through the years, I experienced it first hand. As for the question if there is room for Hyundai in the luxury market......If the Veracruz and Genesis are not proof enough just wait.....They're just getting going.
Smart buyers don't buy price any more than they buy a badge. Smart people buy quality, engineering, options, comfort, styling, value, and warranty. This is especially so in down economic times. I suppose some of them will return to more frivolous makes when the money is flowing once again, most probably won't find it necessary.
True,,, and perhaps Genesis can do the same favor for Lexus owners.
I dunno, that's definitely changing gradually.
You know how it is - public perception lags 5 years or so behind reality.
Acura doesn't have a V8 (never mind Honda), and now Hyundai does, and it's a good one. Do you really think the image of a Honda having more prestige than a Hyundai will last?
In global sales Hyundai just left Honda in the dust.
Image, or perception, ought to be next.
I watched an older episode of Top Gear yesterday, and Jeremy Clarkson said Honda sold 3 cars that interested him in the UK - the NSX, the S2000, and the Civic Type R.
Guess what? 2 of those 3 are out of production, and the 3rd isn't sold in the US. So not a single car in the Honda/Acura lineup perks their interest. Not one.
The Genesis sedan won the North American Car of the Year, which is voted on by journalists, so we all know it has the respect of the press. The rear drive coupe isn't exactly premium, but the performance and fun aspects are nailed down, and they have Rhys Millen drifting one to play the fun angle for them.
How long can Honda ride on their old reputation? And will they ever earn respect in Europe?
(fintail is probably eating this stuff up)
Toyota got too big for their own good. They are their own worst enemy. I have nothing against them - I own one, but you can't build a billion cars and maintain the same quality you had when you built half as many. Their rep will slowly erode as well.
No, I don't. And I agree that Honda and Toyota are benefiting from their reputations. I have nothing against either of them, have owned some of each and wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again. But I no longer see any advantage in owning one vs. a Hyundai with the exception of crash safety (Hyundai lags Honda and Toyota there on mid-sized cars on down) and resale value, which is due to the phenomenon you mentioned--public perception lagging reality by a few years. Honda and Toyota built their reputations on two things: reliability, and value. Then they went upscale. Sound familiar?
Toyota is in trouble. To their credit, they recognize it and freely admit it, and they are working hard to correct it. They and Honda hear Hyundai's footsteps, as was pointed out in the recently posted article. Hyundai has gained the respect of its major competitors, but not yet from the nay-sayers who can't see the reality in front of their faces because of long-held preconceptions.
No disrespect to Korea, but it does not have such a history and that is why Hyundai is not capable of making a true luxury car. As it has with most of its cars, it is very capable of providing cheaper imitations of what other manufacturers have done, but an imitation will never be accepted as the real thing.
BTW, in 1963, Motor Trend named Rambler as Car of the Year and sales fell from 4th to 6th, to 8th in ‘64 and bottomed out at 9th for the rest of the decade. In 1971, it named the Chevy Vega as COTY and that car proved to have significant engine and rust problems. The Motor Trend website has listed other “errors” in COTY awards, most recently the new Thunderbird, which had lackluster sales before being phased out.
Also, the length of a warranty really doesn't mean anything if manufacturer will not back it. 75% of Mercedes Benz's sold since 1952 are still on the road.
What are the cultural histories of a Honda made in Ohio, a Nissan made in Tennessee, a Chrysler made in Canada, a Chevy made in Mexico, and an F150 made in Canada!??!
What are the cultural histories of nearly everything at Wal-Mart, which mostly are made in China!??!
I am writing this on an HP, but I don't think of it as writing on a Chinese computer! At the time it was the best value, and has done it's job just fine for several years now!
Excuse me now, as a real American, I have to put on my Chinese pants, shirt, boots, and cowboy hat, and go for a ride in my [non-permissible content removed] pickup made the the USA!! None of that cheap domestic stuff for me!
Hyundai is successful because of what it offers, not because of where it's from!
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When the Genesis won that it meant not that one single publication liked it, but rather that there was universal approval by a wide variety of american media.
That's quite different.
Well... this his explains a LOT. Now it's clear. For you, this is not about cars. It's not even about car makers. It's about the "cultural history" of a country.
I suggest you do some research on the cultural history of Korea. You may learn something. Maybe enough to come back here and apologize to the people of Korea for saying that they are not capable of creating a "luxury car".
Then I suggest, as soon as the Equus is available in your area, take one for a drive. Maybe then you'll agree with industry experts--people who evaluate cars FOR A LIVING, and don't seem to have prejudices against any particular race of people, that the Equus is indeed a "luxury car".
When a tree's branches spread wider than the roots, it withers. It can no longer send nourishment out to the far reaches. When the roots become old an inefficient, the new branches can not be sustained.
That lesson has been known forever, yet only a few of the most excellent businesses really heed it. Toyota, and eventually Hyundai will have to split off certain vehicles and allow engineering, manufacturing, and marketing to be mostly autonomous.
well OK BUT 'your 'smart buyers' that apparently will buy anything because of a low pricetag' (or FTM) a rather worthless warranty need to understand that it is things that may have a 'badge' that actually can cost LESS than those Korean products. Like, for example, Civics/Accords/Corollas/Camrys cars that certainly have a more prestiguous badge, certainly sell for more but ultimately COST LESS. You can diss 'cost of ownership' stats all you want but class leaders in this regard are NOT usually Korean - so much for 'smart'.
Read somewhere (perhaps here on this forum) that those 'rip-off' Japanese brands did better (sales wise) wth C4C than the cheaper (Korean brands). Goes to show I guess that, indeed, given a price independent choice that the choice does go back to those brands with real (or perceived) quality differences :P .
give me a break, the fact that a "Hyundai' can not be a luxury car' has nothing to do with 'the Korean people' or any 'insult' in that direction . Ford, Chevy, Toyota, and several others can't make a luxury car either - perhaps you would have us 'apologizing' to everybody??? :confuse:
PS the Equus will never be a 'luxury' car as long as it is sold with a Hyundai label and at a Hyundai dealer. At any price....
Anything is possible. Dodge just made Ram a brand.
I guess they want to echo GMC truck, sort of.
Chevy doesn't have a luxury car because GM had decided to hand that responsibility to Cadillac. But as we've discussed, Chevy is capable of making a $50k sports car.
And Ford has delegated its luxury car making to Lincoln. Although the new Taurus is getting pretty darn luxurious, in content and price.
I'm glad you agree though that Korea has enough "culture" to make a luxury car. You just don't like the chrome badge on the trunk.
It lacks the Lexus badge but even has the soft leather and gratuitous fake wood.
I'm tellin' ya, it's a Lexus!
C&D's Taurus stickered for $37.5k.
Nowadays, though, I really think $40k is not luxury, near-luxury maybe, even then entry-level.
Although the national capability/culture statement seems overblown....many enthusiast buyers do buy on brand or engineering heritage. Of course, IMO, the smart money is not spent on new, but on low mileage maintained used.
It works in the USA, where customers expect a bit more warranty and especially service with their big ticket purchase.
In Europe, where Mercedes sells the A-class, it doesn't matter as much.
On the con side, it increases costs, marketing, that warranty, and even small redesigns.
That fine European engineering heritage had done wonders for reliability, hasn't it? And because a car has a MB or BMW or Audi badge on it, I am guaranteed a superior driving experience and the highest levels of quality and reliability, aren't I?
Looking at worldwide sales volumes and the constant inability of the Japanese to crack the European high end market, it looks like many people with real money will sacrifice a margin of reliability for unmatched driving capability and build quality. The high end Korean car certainly won't fare better there.
Equus at least has a modern V8 engine.
I agree the hood ornament is just tacky.
You are contradicting yourself by saying that the Japanese have better reliablity, in general. But the Europeans have better build quality. What are you talking about?
In some ways they probably are, but to me they mean 2 different things.
An example serves best.
2010 Yaris: great reliability, low quality interior materials.
80s Jaguar: fantastic materials, awful reliability.
A luxury car pre-requisite includes good quality materials, but most certainly not reliability. Historically, reliability of some luxury cars has been just woeful - would you buy a pre-Ford Jaguar? An 80s Maserati quattro-porte or Audi?
No contradiction, sorry.
I think that is changing, now that it's possible to buy luxury cars that are reliable. Given the choice, I expect luxury car buyers would rather drive a reliable car.
I think also you are confusing materials quality with build quality. I think low-end cars like the Yaris and Corolla, and Hyundai's Elantra, have excellent build quality. But obviously they cannot match much more expensive cars in the quality of all materials, and still be priced where they are.
Making the Veracruz , the Azera, Sedan, and Equus all a Genesis brand perhaps what they should have done in the first place. You did'nt mention the Coupe - something that would seemingly be better as a Hyundai. But either way, some sorely needed brand separation, a closer parallel to what has been done previously and by eliminating the low end models some differentiation with mass market Hyundai products. . A luxury brand dealer does not sell 'cheap ' cars.
Backy - that's not true, at least not since 2005.....
"Lexus' arrival in the Japanese market in July 2005 marked the first introduction of a Japanese luxury marque in the domestic market"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus
Also sold as Lexus in Europe, Russia, and Asia....
Just for what it's worth...
Hyundai has not reached this pinnacle of reliability, as it takes decades to build up that kind of reputation. From my experience driving Hyundai's, they still have a LONG LONG way to go before catching up the the Toyota's and Honda's of the world (recently test drove '07 or '08 Elantra, so yes, I've driven one in the last 3 years.)
The Town Car as dated as it is has had an OHC engine since 1991.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Curious though how your recent test drive of an Elantra gave you a good handle on how far away Hyundai is from Honda and Toyota in reliability?
Lexus today
Lexus has grown to become the top-selling luxury brand in the United States. In 2006, Lexus sold 322,434 vehicles in the U.S., more than any other luxury competitor, foreign or domestic. In terms of volume, Lexus has been the number one selling luxury marque in the U.S. for the past seven years. Lexus vehicles are now available in over forty countries across the Americas, Europe, Asia, and Oceania, and the Lexus marque ranks as the fourth-largest luxury brand in the world by volume.[10] Lexus was finally introduced to the Japanese market on July 26, 2005, ending domestic sales of Lexus-similar models under separate brands. The compact IS sedans, convertible SC, and mid-size GS sedans became available in Japan in the 2006 model year.
http://www.automotivehistoryonline.com/Lexus.htm
The Japanese public wanted the status of the Luxury Name, and so Toyota introduced it in Japan. Obviously, there are still "Toyota" luxury cars, just as Chevy still has the Corvette.... but the customer demand is to move the luxury cars into an exclusive name and out of Toyota....
That's not what I said. Here is what I said:
That's true, but I was thinking of how Toyota sells cars outside the USA as Toyotas, even though they'd have a Lexus badge here.
The Toyota Crown Majesta is an example of a car that Toyota sells outside the USA as a Toyota, although it would have a Lexus badge here.
My original point was that Toyota does make luxury cars (contrary to another poster who said they don't), and they sell them under the Toyota brand. Thank you for corroborating my position.
since I guess I'm, that poster - OK for you nitpickers , I'll rephrase - Toyota does not make (or market) luxury cars IN THIS COUNTRY. What is or is not 'luxury' has a whole lot to do with brand perceptions, and how the name Toyota is perceived overseas is inconsequential. in this hemisphere.
Hyundai, I'm told, has a better overall rep overseas than it does over here although not necessarily as a 'luxury' marque. That is all well and good but really has no effect on the decidedly pedestrian and non-lux character of the Hyumdai brand in this country.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Maybe if we knew some of this info we could get you some help. :shades:
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460