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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    But if people buy in to the mystique of the name, by all means, exploit it.

    I'm not into exploitation, especially when I'm on the wrong end. But,,, there's a sucker born every minute (I guess every 20 seconds these days).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Awhile back there was a thread here on the Hyundai Assurance program. Some (I won't name names, it could be embarrassing) claimed the Assurance program would lead to a flood of used Hyundais hitting the market and depressing resale values, while costing Hyundai a ton of money. Some questioned whether it should be offered on the Genesis.

    So, guess how many cars have been returned as of September under this program? Anyone?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    One?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Less than one, actually. Per state. ;)
  • craigmricraigmri Member Posts: 243
    Guys, been a while since I've posted here. I hate all this positive Hyundai news over the last few years. I have owned the following Hyundais over the years:

    1988 Excel 3 door GLS
    1992 Scoupe LS
    1998 Sonata GLS
    2001 Santa Fe GLS
    2007 Santa Fe Limited
    2008 Veracruz Limited-Current vehicle

    Why do I hate all the positive Hyundai press and great sales? The cat is out of the bag and the sweetheart deals of yesterday are gone. I used to consider Hyundai and a hidden treasure. You always got so much car for ridiculous money as you could always negotiate unbelievable deals. Less so now it seems.

    I've not only watched Hyundai quality grow through the years, I experienced it first hand. As for the question if there is room for Hyundai in the luxury market......If the Veracruz and Genesis are not proof enough just wait.....They're just getting going.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Hyundai and Kia are about the only mfgrs that aren't being killed by the economy - think possibly it could be because they sell price?

    Smart buyers don't buy price any more than they buy a badge. Smart people buy quality, engineering, options, comfort, styling, value, and warranty. This is especially so in down economic times. I suppose some of them will return to more frivolous makes when the money is flowing once again, most probably won't find it necessary.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Lexus has forced the Germans to keep prices somewhat in check, if anything...and maybe to work on the durability of components

    True,,, and perhaps Genesis can do the same favor for Lexus owners.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Accord, Camry, and Avalon, to satisfy those cash-poor BMW owners. And those badges have more "prestige" than Hyundai

    I dunno, that's definitely changing gradually.

    You know how it is - public perception lags 5 years or so behind reality.

    Acura doesn't have a V8 (never mind Honda), and now Hyundai does, and it's a good one. Do you really think the image of a Honda having more prestige than a Hyundai will last?

    In global sales Hyundai just left Honda in the dust.

    Image, or perception, ought to be next.

    I watched an older episode of Top Gear yesterday, and Jeremy Clarkson said Honda sold 3 cars that interested him in the UK - the NSX, the S2000, and the Civic Type R.

    Guess what? 2 of those 3 are out of production, and the 3rd isn't sold in the US. So not a single car in the Honda/Acura lineup perks their interest. Not one.

    The Genesis sedan won the North American Car of the Year, which is voted on by journalists, so we all know it has the respect of the press. The rear drive coupe isn't exactly premium, but the performance and fun aspects are nailed down, and they have Rhys Millen drifting one to play the fun angle for them.

    How long can Honda ride on their old reputation? And will they ever earn respect in Europe?

    (fintail is probably eating this stuff up)

    Toyota got too big for their own good. They are their own worst enemy. I have nothing against them - I own one, but you can't build a billion cars and maintain the same quality you had when you built half as many. Their rep will slowly erode as well.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Do you really think the image of a Honda having more prestige than a Hyundai will last?

    No, I don't. And I agree that Honda and Toyota are benefiting from their reputations. I have nothing against either of them, have owned some of each and wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again. But I no longer see any advantage in owning one vs. a Hyundai with the exception of crash safety (Hyundai lags Honda and Toyota there on mid-sized cars on down) and resale value, which is due to the phenomenon you mentioned--public perception lagging reality by a few years. Honda and Toyota built their reputations on two things: reliability, and value. Then they went upscale. Sound familiar?

    Toyota is in trouble. To their credit, they recognize it and freely admit it, and they are working hard to correct it. They and Honda hear Hyundai's footsteps, as was pointed out in the recently posted article. Hyundai has gained the respect of its major competitors, but not yet from the nay-sayers who can't see the reality in front of their faces because of long-held preconceptions.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    England, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the United States are internationally recognized as having exceptional cultural histories. These cultural histories had tremendous impact on these nation’s ability to produce true luxury cars.
    No disrespect to Korea, but it does not have such a history and that is why Hyundai is not capable of making a true luxury car. As it has with most of its cars, it is very capable of providing cheaper imitations of what other manufacturers have done, but an imitation will never be accepted as the real thing.
    BTW, in 1963, Motor Trend named Rambler as Car of the Year and sales fell from 4th to 6th, to 8th in ‘64 and bottomed out at 9th for the rest of the decade. In 1971, it named the Chevy Vega as COTY and that car proved to have significant engine and rust problems. The Motor Trend website has listed other “errors” in COTY awards, most recently the new Thunderbird, which had lackluster sales before being phased out.
    Also, the length of a warranty really doesn't mean anything if manufacturer will not back it. 75% of Mercedes Benz's sold since 1952 are still on the road.
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    ""England, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the United States are internationally recognized as having exceptional cultural histories.""

    What are the cultural histories of a Honda made in Ohio, a Nissan made in Tennessee, a Chrysler made in Canada, a Chevy made in Mexico, and an F150 made in Canada!??!
    What are the cultural histories of nearly everything at Wal-Mart, which mostly are made in China!??!
    I am writing this on an HP, but I don't think of it as writing on a Chinese computer! At the time it was the best value, and has done it's job just fine for several years now!
    Excuse me now, as a real American, I have to put on my Chinese pants, shirt, boots, and cowboy hat, and go for a ride in my [non-permissible content removed] pickup made the the USA!! None of that cheap domestic stuff for me!

    Hyundai is successful because of what it offers, not because of where it's from!

    .
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota got too big for their own good.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Let's not confuse the Motor Trend COTY award (given by one single publication) with the North American COTY award - voted on by all the automotive media in North America.

    When the Genesis won that it meant not that one single publication liked it, but rather that there was universal approval by a wide variety of american media.

    That's quite different.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    England, France, Germany, Italy, Japan and the United States are internationally recognized as having exceptional cultural histories.

    Well... this his explains a LOT. Now it's clear. For you, this is not about cars. It's not even about car makers. It's about the "cultural history" of a country.

    I suggest you do some research on the cultural history of Korea. You may learn something. Maybe enough to come back here and apologize to the people of Korea for saying that they are not capable of creating a "luxury car".

    Then I suggest, as soon as the Equus is available in your area, take one for a drive. Maybe then you'll agree with industry experts--people who evaluate cars FOR A LIVING, and don't seem to have prejudices against any particular race of people, that the Equus is indeed a "luxury car".
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Toyota got too big for their own good.

    When a tree's branches spread wider than the roots, it withers. It can no longer send nourishment out to the far reaches. When the roots become old an inefficient, the new branches can not be sustained.

    That lesson has been known forever, yet only a few of the most excellent businesses really heed it. Toyota, and eventually Hyundai will have to split off certain vehicles and allow engineering, manufacturing, and marketing to be mostly autonomous.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Smart buyers don't buy price any more than they buy a badge
    well OK BUT 'your 'smart buyers' that apparently will buy anything because of a low pricetag' (or FTM) a rather worthless warranty need to understand that it is things that may have a 'badge' that actually can cost LESS than those Korean products. Like, for example, Civics/Accords/Corollas/Camrys cars that certainly have a more prestiguous badge, certainly sell for more but ultimately COST LESS. You can diss 'cost of ownership' stats all you want but class leaders in this regard are NOT usually Korean - so much for 'smart'.
    Read somewhere (perhaps here on this forum) that those 'rip-off' Japanese brands did better (sales wise) wth C4C than the cheaper (Korean brands). Goes to show I guess that, indeed, given a price independent choice that the choice does go back to those brands with real (or perceived) quality differences :P .
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    apologize to the people of Korea for saying that they are not capable of creating a "luxury car".
    give me a break, the fact that a "Hyundai' can not be a luxury car' has nothing to do with 'the Korean people' or any 'insult' in that direction . Ford, Chevy, Toyota, and several others can't make a luxury car either - perhaps you would have us 'apologizing' to everybody??? :confuse:

    PS the Equus will never be a 'luxury' car as long as it is sold with a Hyundai label and at a Hyundai dealer. At any price....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    FWIW backy's not the one who said it had to do with the Korean people...
  • cipollacipolla Member Posts: 22
    Had my 08 VC limited serviced at my Hyunadi dealer, I was told that Hyunadi no longer will make the VC. They will start sometime in the future and will be sold only with the Genesis and Azera,Equus and not with sold with other Hyunadi's.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Can you clarify? As a seperate brand, you mean?

    Anything is possible. Dodge just made Ram a brand.

    I guess they want to echo GMC truck, sort of.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Toyota can't make a luxury car? You're kidding, right?

    Chevy doesn't have a luxury car because GM had decided to hand that responsibility to Cadillac. But as we've discussed, Chevy is capable of making a $50k sports car.

    And Ford has delegated its luxury car making to Lincoln. Although the new Taurus is getting pretty darn luxurious, in content and price.

    I'm glad you agree though that Korea has enough "culture" to make a luxury car. You just don't like the chrome badge on the trunk.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    A loaded AWD Sienna Limited stickers in the $40s, and comes with HIDs, laser cruise control, Navi, backup cam and audio sensors, and the requisite entertainment system.

    It lacks the Lexus badge but even has the soft leather and gratuitous fake wood. :D

    I'm tellin' ya, it's a Lexus!

    C&D's Taurus stickered for $37.5k.

    Nowadays, though, I really think $40k is not luxury, near-luxury maybe, even then entry-level.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    That's true, but I was thinking of how Toyota sells cars outside the USA as Toyotas, even though they'd have a Lexus badge here. I have this feeling someone at Toyota HQ is shaking his head, saying, "Ah, those funny Americans... some of them need to see a 'luxury' badge on an expensive car before they'll buy one, despite all of the Japanese culture and tradition for quality that goes into our Toyotas. Well, we are glad to accommodate them!"
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I think it was md4cow who called the Equus something along the lines of a Korean Town Car. I suspect that's pretty accurate - especially design-wise.

    Although the national capability/culture statement seems overblown....many enthusiast buyers do buy on brand or engineering heritage. Of course, IMO, the smart money is not spent on new, but on low mileage maintained used.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    There are pros and cons to each approach, though.

    It works in the USA, where customers expect a bit more warranty and especially service with their big ticket purchase.

    In Europe, where Mercedes sells the A-class, it doesn't matter as much.

    On the con side, it increases costs, marketing, that warranty, and even small redesigns.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Ford wishes, in its wildest dreams, that the design of the Town Car were anything close to that of the Equus.

    That fine European engineering heritage had done wonders for reliability, hasn't it? And because a car has a MB or BMW or Audi badge on it, I am guaranteed a superior driving experience and the highest levels of quality and reliability, aren't I?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Styling wise, the Equus and the TC are about equal to my eyes. Supersized Azera greenhouse with a comical almost cynical hood ornament. There's something to brag about. It might be more advanced mechanically...but the TC also dates back to the Harding administration. I bet the driving experience is pretty much what the TC would be had it ever been updated. It's no 7er or S, I will bank on that.

    Looking at worldwide sales volumes and the constant inability of the Japanese to crack the European high end market, it looks like many people with real money will sacrifice a margin of reliability for unmatched driving capability and build quality. The high end Korean car certainly won't fare better there.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I won't defend the Equus' styling (to me it looks like a giant Elantra) but didn't the Town Car get a dated pushrod V8?

    Equus at least has a modern V8 engine.

    I agree the hood ornament is just tacky.
  • paradigmexpparadigmexp Member Posts: 16
    Build quality and reliablity. Aren't these two factors linked together?

    You are contradicting yourself by saying that the Japanese have better reliablity, in general. But the Europeans have better build quality. What are you talking about?
  • paradigmexpparadigmexp Member Posts: 16
    The back seat is makes you feel like an executive. Obviously, this is Where Hyundai is leading all other luxury marques at this point. maybe, just maybe Bentley, Maybach, and Rolls-Royce has back seat massage chairs, auto-matic folding frong passenger seats, and a refridgerator. But, none of the German or Japanese brands come even close. Call that a Yugo, and that is one great car.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Build quality and reliablity. Aren't these two factors linked together?

    In some ways they probably are, but to me they mean 2 different things.

    An example serves best.

    2010 Yaris: great reliability, low quality interior materials.
    80s Jaguar: fantastic materials, awful reliability.

    A luxury car pre-requisite includes good quality materials, but most certainly not reliability. Historically, reliability of some luxury cars has been just woeful - would you buy a pre-Ford Jaguar? An 80s Maserati quattro-porte or Audi?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Build quality and quality in general, and reliability are barely connected at best. Assembly quality, material quality, fit and finish, structural integrity, et al - it isn't connected to a dodgy electrical design or high maintenance needs - both of which are classic European ailments. A car can be beautifully built but need more visits to the shop than something more normal.

    No contradiction, sorry.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You phrased it better than I did.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    A luxury car pre-requisite includes good quality materials, but most certainly not reliability.

    I think that is changing, now that it's possible to buy luxury cars that are reliable. Given the choice, I expect luxury car buyers would rather drive a reliable car.

    I think also you are confusing materials quality with build quality. I think low-end cars like the Yaris and Corolla, and Hyundai's Elantra, have excellent build quality. But obviously they cannot match much more expensive cars in the quality of all materials, and still be priced where they are.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    finally something that makes sense - if true - and they might just be able to minimize the cost of a Genesis only dealerships by simply acquiring the remains of the now defunct GM and Chrysler locations. Remodel, refit, qualifiy the most service oriented dealers and then change the sign. Ought to be able to 'acquire' the dealerships for pennies on the dollar. Timing, in that respect, quite good.
    Making the Veracruz , the Azera, Sedan, and Equus all a Genesis brand perhaps what they should have done in the first place. You did'nt mention the Coupe - something that would seemingly be better as a Hyundai. But either way, some sorely needed brand separation, a closer parallel to what has been done previously and by eliminating the low end models some differentiation with mass market Hyundai products. . A luxury brand dealer does not sell 'cheap ' cars.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    That's true, but I was thinking of how Toyota sells cars outside the USA as Toyotas, even though they'd have a Lexus badge here.

    Backy - that's not true, at least not since 2005.....

    "Lexus' arrival in the Japanese market in July 2005 marked the first introduction of a Japanese luxury marque in the domestic market"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus

    Also sold as Lexus in Europe, Russia, and Asia....

    Just for what it's worth...
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    The reason Toyota and Honda are in a league of their own is because they have had top notch reliability ratings (CR is the best source) year after year after year after decade, across all model lines, for all of their vehicles.

    Hyundai has not reached this pinnacle of reliability, as it takes decades to build up that kind of reputation. From my experience driving Hyundai's, they still have a LONG LONG way to go before catching up the the Toyota's and Honda's of the world (recently test drove '07 or '08 Elantra, so yes, I've driven one in the last 3 years.)
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,854
    but didn't the Town Car get a dated pushrod V8?

    The Town Car as dated as it is has had an OHC engine since 1991.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The Town Car hasn't had a pushrod V8 since 1991 or 1992. The engine in the Town car is the SOHC 4.6 liter Modular V8. Not DOHC or 48 valve of course but indeed modern. That engine might even have variable cam phasing or variable valve lift by now too not sure.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So you are saying the Toyota Crown Majesta, which sells for around $70k in USD, is NOT a luxury car?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Why should it take Hyundai "decades" to build up a reputation for reliability when it took Honda and Toyota only about a decade to do that? That is, roughly mid-70s to mid-80s?

    Curious though how your recent test drive of an Elantra gave you a good handle on how far away Hyundai is from Honda and Toyota in reliability?
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    Nooo..... I'm saying that you were incorrect in stating that Toyota does not use the Lexus name for luxury cars outside the U.S. Your point may be that a Luxury Brand name is not necessary for a luxurious car, but the tide is running in the other direction, backy.....

    Lexus today
    Lexus has grown to become the top-selling luxury brand in the United States. In 2006, Lexus sold 322,434 vehicles in the U.S., more than any other luxury competitor, foreign or domestic. In terms of volume, Lexus has been the number one selling luxury marque in the U.S. for the past seven years. Lexus vehicles are now available in over forty countries across the Americas, Europe, Asia, and Oceania, and the Lexus marque ranks as the fourth-largest luxury brand in the world by volume.[10] Lexus was finally introduced to the Japanese market on July 26, 2005, ending domestic sales of Lexus-similar models under separate brands. The compact IS sedans, convertible SC, and mid-size GS sedans became available in Japan in the 2006 model year.

    http://www.automotivehistoryonline.com/Lexus.htm

    The Japanese public wanted the status of the Luxury Name, and so Toyota introduced it in Japan. Obviously, there are still "Toyota" luxury cars, just as Chevy still has the Corvette.... but the customer demand is to move the luxury cars into an exclusive name and out of Toyota....
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I'm saying that you were incorrect in stating that Toyota does not use the Lexus name for luxury cars outside the U.S.

    That's not what I said. Here is what I said:

    That's true, but I was thinking of how Toyota sells cars outside the USA as Toyotas, even though they'd have a Lexus badge here.


    The Toyota Crown Majesta is an example of a car that Toyota sells outside the USA as a Toyota, although it would have a Lexus badge here.

    My original point was that Toyota does make luxury cars (contrary to another poster who said they don't), and they sell them under the Toyota brand. Thank you for corroborating my position.
  • ingvaringvar Member Posts: 205
    Please, take a short visit to Toyota and Honda problems & fixes forums, you will be surprised how many unhappy owners trying to fix "super-reliable" cars. I had 2 Honda cars, ex-girlfriend had Toyota. Now I'm driving German and American cars with 0 issues.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    1980s Rolls-Royces were paragons of luxury but buying a used one would quickly send you to the poor house. There was a 1987 or so Rolls-Royce Silver Spur at the Fall Carlisle show for $13K. Some poor uninformed slob would be thinking, "Only $13K for a Rolls? I'm sold!" :surprise: Then when he has to take it in for a brake job or some electronic bugaboo, he'll be repenting his sins! :cry:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    My original point was that Toyota does make luxury cars (contrary to another poster who said they don't), and they sell them under the Toyota brand. Thank you for corroborating my position.
    since I guess I'm, that poster - OK for you nitpickers , I'll rephrase - Toyota does not make (or market) luxury cars IN THIS COUNTRY. What is or is not 'luxury' has a whole lot to do with brand perceptions, and how the name Toyota is perceived overseas is inconsequential. in this hemisphere.
    Hyundai, I'm told, has a better overall rep overseas than it does over here although not necessarily as a 'luxury' marque. That is all well and good but really has no effect on the decidedly pedestrian and non-lux character of the Hyumdai brand in this country.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    There are exceptions to every rule.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Captain, you have never explained why you have this particular fixation on why Hyundai can never be a luxury brand. It would be quite interesting for you to share what is behind all this. For example: Do you sell a competing brand for a living? Do you post in any other forums? Did Hyundai financial turn down your credit app.? Just why is this particular subject so important to you?

    Maybe if we knew some of this info we could get you some help. :shades:

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • LASHAWNLASHAWN Member Posts: 303
    The question I'm posing today is who really cares if Hyundai is perceived as a luxury marque? I think Hyundai themselves would like to be mentioned as a luxury marque, but I think their more concerned with just selling their products and let idiots like us fight over whether they belong in the same sentence as BMW, MB and Lexus. I for one could care less. If RR or Bentley offered a vehicle in the $50k to $60k range, would we argue that vehicle would not be considered luxury? I for one could care less, anyone else agree or disagree with this.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I certainly agree with you 100% and I think Hyundai is just happy to be selling so many cars and gaining so much prestige.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

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