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And 350Z to a Corvette."
or let's really go crazy!
Let's compare a 4Runner Ltd to a GX470
and maybe a Camry XLE to an ES?
By the way, y'all, Toyota was not the first Japanese car company to introduce high-line branding to the US. I believe Honda beat them by a couple of years, with the Acura Legend.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2007-09-20-veracruz_N.htm
Craig
I see a lot of nice reviews, which I can see on a Fusion, or any car really.
Don't see one that compares apples to oranges, yet.
But the night is young.
All I'm saying is if you want Lexus so bad, you know what you have to do, Cowboy.
I think Hyundai will have a very nice Chrysler 300 competitor. That's good, right?
DrFill
http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4220226.html?page=1
Give it a rest.
Hyundai builds a good vehicle, but they're not really a sales threat, so why worry 'bout it? Aside from the Santa Fe and the Elantra and maybe the Sonata, the lineup doesn't pull in the buyers. Look at the lukewarm acceptance of the Azera.
I guess it is a bit fun to run through the Hyundai hen house here, cause you WILL stir 'em up, but I think the Genesis has a good chance to succeed.
Let it.
It keeps his blood pumping strong and we want our good doctor to stay healthy. Please just play along. I mean, don't you know that Hyundai and Kia are just playing along, too?
Most of us get it that Toyota is a huge appliance maker that sorely lacks a real body design department like Hyundai/Kia's. That they lack total confidence in their engineering/quality control manufacturing departments to the tune of not offering their buyer's a decent Warranty.
What is a mystery is why and how they sell as many cars as they do. Let's all play along, K? Sit back for a moment and wait for the tsunami to swarm us and convince us that Hyundai should just throw in the towel and give up on trying to commandeer a luxury audience. It will be good for us to know that Hyundai/Kia are washabe's that dardent stand a tootin' chance. Play with us, please.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Money wise, yes. Car wise, no. Don't drink the skunky water.
7. To Hyundai: It takes patience and money to make money and take the road that's less traveled.
That's really priceless. You're saying that instead of producing great cars now, Hyundai should be patient, and wait until later to produce great cars.
Too late! Hyundai already builds great cars. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.
There you go again, comparing sales. If you compare the cars, you lose.
Name a comparison, other than the MT hoax, where a Hyundai won the comparison?
Elantra? Sant Fe? Sonata? Veracruz vs Highlander? Pilot? Buying a Hyundai is NOT about having a superior machine. Certainly not against a Lexus. :lemon:
Just because the tore apart a 99 RX300, rebuilt it, added a 3rd row seat, and and then commissioned MT to appraise their facsimile, doesn't make it a Lexus. Just ask an owner after 3 years.
The umpteenth reason not to lend credence to this MT comparison, which cheerleaders are hanging their hat on.
When we compar 350Z to Corvettes, then we can compare Hyundais to Lexus. Not before.
If Hyundai wants to take comparisons seriously, they need to make a serious investment. That's fair, right?
Why should they get a free ride. :mad:
DrFill
DrFill
Fill, since you get so much pleasure here in Edmunds, certainly you value this organization right?
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=106434
Or is this a hoax too?
Hyundai wins again! Not just competes....WINS! BTW, You get cudos for helping make this one of the most active threads in Edmunds....This will certainly give Hyundai greater exposure and with all the great links to facts provided people will learn just how good Hyundai is....Thanks fill!
Craig
Playtime's over, boy.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=109710/pageId=692- - - 96
They all but said: We threw them a bone, tried to put them over, but in the real world, they sit with the domestics. Nice try, doh.
I thought you could tell a weighted comparison from one that is not. But you do subscribe to MT, so I guess I give you too much credit, yes?
Copying a last-generation car well doesn't a winning formula make.
Unless you are a charity case.
DrFill
Hmm. I don't buy that. It's like saying a Honda Pilot with leather seats and DVD compares to a Porsche Cayenne Turbo or is maybe better because it has DVD.
Those who have driven let's say the X5 4.8 will be able to compare a luxury vehicle to a near luxury vehicle with a clearer demarcation. I have no doubt Hyundai is capable of producing a car with leather seats and bluetooth and HID, but I won't call it luxury unless it measures up to the standards of a luxury vehicle.
There are those who are less discriminating and might call the aforementioned Pilot with leather seats luxury, and that is part of the conversation.
No fill, YOU said that not Edmunds. You asked me to produce an example of Hyundai winning a comparo and I have already produced two. That Edmunds comparo was based on comparable priced cars and the Hyundai Won. Nothing changes that. The article you produced is a different comparo not based on comparable priced cars.
Curious what your motive is here. Are you in the car biz? You sure as heck ain't a Doctor!
Craig
If you don't mind the hand-out, why should I right?
My mistake.
DrFill
What's the best CUV you can buy for $30K and under? How about $35K?
I submit that the Hyundai Sonata, Azera, Santa Fe, Veracruz, and (soon) Genesis win their price class. They all have the styling, engineering, quality, reliability, performance, options, safety, and warranty that it takes to make their customers feel they got their money's worth. Read it again. That's a formidible lineup. It's just a matter of time before those cars are discovered by the general public. Meanwhile, I'll enjoy my semi-exclusive car.
I know what you're going to say, but it is about the price. It's always about the price. A car that costs $10K more should be way better, and should not even be compared to a less expensive car. The fact they are compared hints that maybe someone isn't getting their 10K's worth. But, it's only money.
Let's compare a Tahoe to a Mercedes GL
I have done both. I was not overly impressed with Lexus or the GL I drove. I do not like the looks of the new Tahoe/Yukon. I ended up buying a Sequoia Limited 4WD. I think with the panic in the market, it was the most bang for the buck. Only have 500 miles on it and am pleased with all but the NAV.
If I wanted a small CUV I would have bought the Veracruz not the RX. It would have been based on dealer experience. I have had great service with Drew Ford/VW/Hyundai. I have had poor experience with Bob Baker Lexus.
The GX470 is way over rated and over priced. It was just a $56k 4Runner. I will keep my $15k in the bank and settle for the Toyota. Same goes for the RX350, it is just an over priced Highlander that is quite frankly less attractive.
Congratulations! Nice vehicle indeed! It's probably the best car in its price class.
Apparently everyone here is the exception, and every survey over the lat 15 years is wrong, but what are the chances someone will find the car, dealer experience, risk factor, and service better at a Hyundai dealer than Lexus?
You have to consider all factors.
Chances are pretty slim. Like lottery odds slim.
DrFill
If this is being called "luxury" then it should be measured in the "luxury" segment.
If you want to say the Veracruz has the best doodads/$ ratio of any CUV under $30K that might be a true statement. If you want to say it appears Hyundai has a great product at a reasonable price, I would kind-of agree. But calling it "luxury" is a misnomer when one examines some "real luxury" vehicles.
It's always about the price, the question is how high. I'm am sure Lexus owners can point to what makes their vehicles a luxury item, while Verzcruz potentials dismiss these same items or say there is no difference.
I don't buy the hoopla in the press, never did. You have to be comfortable with what you buy and why you want it. I'm not a Lexus fanbody or a Hyundai hater. It may be a good value for the dollar, but Lexus is not about value. It's about producing luxury vehicles, and therein lies the difference.
Gagrice,
My brother-in-law and I recently tested the Sequoia and liked it...Nice choice!
Question about the Navi. Do you not like yours and if so, may I ask what is it you dislike? We are waiting another few weeks for the Veracruz with Navi to show. I'm thinking if it does not come with a back-up camera and integrated bluetooth we're gonna go without that Navi option and use my Garmin C320 instead as its just fine for basic Navigation.
Craig
When one is talking about price/performance, etc., you should not be in a luxury market at all. What is a luxury item? It is about the history, prestige, brand recoginition, and sign of a class in this society. (Unfortunately, Hyundai has none of the above.) It is NOT about the value, reliability, or price to performance ratio, etc. Doen't matter what is your your net-worth, if you concerned about price, you are not a true luxury buyer no matter of what car you are ended up with.
It is really unfortunate to this society, a lot of us (me truely included) should not get into the luxury market at all. The reason for this is we all pretend!! :shades:
When a brand tells you we give you a ban for your buck, this is not a luxury brand. (When does RR or Bentley sings that sone?) And for a shopper even concerned about getting the dollar's worth, you are not a luxury buyer. And it should be. There is less than 1% of the whole population deemed whelthy. Rest of us, just pretend. (I couldn't help but laugh when a poster stated his friends drives Hyundai everyday while gararged his BMW.) One can afford a BMW doesn't mean you are in the upper echelon of this society.
It is really unfortunate to this society, a lot of us (me truely included) should not get into the luxury market at all. The reason for this is we all pretend!!
I agree 100%.
In the first place, luxury is hard to define. I'm not even sure how I define luxury for my own purposes. Luxury is not measurable, and the idea of what luxury is ratchets upward year by year.
I think 1 of the greatest sources of disagreement and misunderstanding on this subject comes from high price being perceived as somehow adding to the luxury.
Q. Why is that car so expensive?
A. Because it's luxurious.
Q. What's so luxurious about it?
A. Mainly the price.
It kind of makes you go "DUH!"
IS250/350 - Where is the rebadged Toyota? Please let me know because I wouldn't mind to get a 306HP RWD Toyota sports sedan for under $30K.
GS350/460/450h - Where is the rebadged Toyota of those?
SC430 - Where is the rebadged Toyota?
LS460/600hL - Where is the rebadged Toyota of those? I didn't know that Toyota has a 438HP hybrid full size RWD sedan in its arsenal.
RX350/400h - The RX shares platform with the Highlander but can hardly be called as a "rebadge" job.
ES350, GX470 and LX570 - The best I'll give you is that these are mild rebadge jobs. Compare those with their Toyota counterparts and tell me how many body panels do they share and if they have identical interiors.
So the rest of the Lexus lineup are just rebadged Toyota vehicles with a slightly better interiors huh? Right.
Case closed.
On top of the list I made yesterday I guess I'll add the last and final point:
Hyundai is not a luxury brand. Period!
You guys here are welcomed to continue with these apples to oranges comparisons. Whatever makes you happy I guess...
Let me reword my statement. MOST of the vehicles that Lexus sells are rebadged Toyotas. How is that?
Lexus has a reputation to uphold. A certain standard.
Hyundai certainly doesn't have that problem.
DrFill
I'll keep the light on for ya!
DrFill
Really? I'll give you that for the SC but even the GS is not selling well compares to the competitors I can see many on the street here in So Cal. The IS is going out the door at around 5000 units in a bad month and 6000 in a good one. So they are not selling well? Give me a break.
Let me reword my statement. MOST of the vehicles that Lexus sells are rebadged Toyotas. How is that?
Still not true. Keep spinning, one day you'll get there.
PS. This will be my last post on this topic because it's way off topic. I'd love to continue the discussion with you either on the "Toyota in 2007" or "Is Lexus The Standard of the World?" Boards.
My apologize to those who are here to discuss about Hyundai.
I believe there is a demographic out there that likes luxurious cars, but are too logical, practical, or modest to own one. That is the demographic that may be interested in "near luxury" cars by Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai.
But if you take a luxury vehicle like the X5 4.8 and list all of the options and features and compare it to the Veracruz and see the diffrence, there would be a crude estimate of luxury vs upscale. BTW Almost every manufacturer is attempting to produce upscale cars.
However, that doesn't justify the idea which most here seem share that Hyundai is all of the sudden a player in the luxury market. Granted that Hyundai, Toyota and Honda are making some dang good near luxury cars/SUVs but at the end of the day they are still Hyundai, Toyota and Honda. Keep in mind that being a good AAA player doesn't automatically mean that he has got what it takes to be in the Major Leagues.
2. One who pretends, like myself. He/she will think about the toyota, or even tempted by the Hyundai. But even he ended up with a hyundai, don't ever state hyundai is becoming a luxury brand now becuase he is not a luxury buyer!
Nor was Toyota, before it started Lexus. Nor was Honda, before it started Acura. Nor was Nissan, before it started Infiniti. Hyundai is not a luxury brand today--that is clear. Can they evolve in the next few years to successfully attack the luxury market--like Toyota, Honda, and Nissan did? That is the open question. I think Hyundai has a decent shot at success. They are already offering near-luxury models like the Veracruz and Azera that are more "luxurious" than what Toyota, Honda, and Nissan offered at the time those companies launched their luxury brands. Remember that one of the first two Lexus models was a thinly-disguised Camry, one of Acura's initial offerings was a gussied-up Civic and another a gussied-up Accord, and one of Infiniti's initial offerings was a Sentra on steroids. Hyundai can start out attacking the luxury market with far better offerings than what Toyota, Honda, and Nissan threw out there at first.
Talk about a tough act to follow. :surprise:
DrFill
I'm sure Lexus thought of the RX350 a tough act to follow too, until the Veracruz came along to critical acclaim for $10,000 less.
1. I didn't see Honda, Toyota and Nissan try to spin themselves into luxury brands did they? They CREATED another brand and SEPARATE INDEPENDENT DEALER NETWORK. The only beef I have with Hyundai is not that they aren't good enough to make luxury vehicles but it's that they aren't playing it smart.
2. If the top dogs in Hyundai think they can spin the brand into a luxury marque then they are solely mistaken. People here are shallow and it shows with their buying decision. Maybe the Hyundai top dogs in Seoul should organize a field trip to come here and spend couple days visiting various luxury and non-luxury dealerships.
As for Veracruz comparable to the RX350, I still laugh whenever I see that being mentioned.
Call me shallow but in case you haven't out yet, people here in the good ole' USA do buy badges. :surprise:
And since Hyundai doesn't have a brand to use, any efforts in that vain are surely wasted.
Waste not..... :P
DrFill
The Genesis with V8 is already a has-been. Haven't you noticed turbo V6s are producing almost the same power and probably more torque. Let the magazines say what they want, it's the people who will determine if these cars hit their mark, miss their mark or even go unnoticed. And you are right the Genesis probably does compare with LS400.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the editors of MT actually drove the RX350 and Veracruz when they did their recent comparo. Which is what a lot of folks in this discussion who are dismissing Hyundai's efforts haven't done--actually drive their vehicles, let alone own one and compare the ownership experience to that of other brands.
DrFill
Such a waste for a car like Genesis because once it's a Hyundai it'll always be a Hyundai. A different badge won't do it justice. Remember the famous "Camry and ES" example that every Lexus bashers seem love to use?
I don't buy that conclusion and I don't believe it. I do not believe Hyundai knows how build luxury vehicles. They know how to build an attractive vehicle that at a value price, that is their forte. That is what they did with the Veracruz and Genesis. Let me suggest this, the Thunderbird was named COTY, and where is it now? These magazines are looking for readership. I would be more inclined to listen (although still would be skeptical) when CR says the Veracruz is in the same luxury league as the RX. The don't have an advertising axe to grind.
You can believe what you want. But given that multiple, professional reviewers have touted the ability of Hyundais to win over the luxury market--MT's and James Healey's reviews as two recent examples--I will tend to discount the opinion of one individual who has never driven these vehicles and has a negative opinion of Hyundai overall, in favor of these professional opinions.