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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    edited March 2010
    Could all of those discounts have to do with updated model designs, clearing out the oldies?

    The M, 5er, and E are all new or going to be soon, and the RL hasn't been a contender in 4 years, if it even was back in 05. Tough comparisons.

    It will be interesting to see what happens when the Genesis updates.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    edited March 2010
    True that - it's not derivative of anything I recognize. On that note, maybe H deserves some recognition, even if the concept is kind of odd. At least they are putting out some effort. There's a theme being created here - I can see it in the Elantra, the new Tucson, somewhat in the Sonata.

    If the thing ever hits production, I expect it to resemble something like the new Sonata. It will be very normalized.

    I assume this thing will have raised or stadium seating, or visibility will be an issue too.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Even the people over at the main Acura board are cursing Honda's management for not going thru w/ the plans for V-8 and RWD, much less the current styling

    couldn't agree with you more about the current styling trend, mainly the snow plow grills but I have not heard of the V8 RWD production cancellation? Last time I checked they were still going through with it; could you possibly provide a link to support this so I made read it before I write a nasty letter to Honda???

    greatly appreciate it!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    With Toyota's recent struggles there may be some Lexus owners looking for an alternative.

    They already have several alternatives. Hyundai is one, with the Genesis and soon the Equus.

    I think alot of Hyundai/Kia buyers bought those cars because they offered a great warranty, were getting more and more reliable and were cheaper than the J3.

    And if they were brand-conscious, they would have popped the extra bucks for a more "respected" brand ala Honda or Toyota or one of the luxury brands. (Like the Coach purses, right?) But they didn't.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    they would have popped the extra bucks for a more "respected" brand ala Honda or Toyota or one of the luxury brands

    I was thinking more along the lines of pure affordability. People who may have only been able to afford something under 20K. A 17K Sonata looks much better on paper to a family than a smallish Corolla or Civic for the same money.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    A brand conscious person would buy a used Honda or Toyota or the like before they would be caught dead in a Hyundai. Just like brand-conscious folks with little cash buy their Coach purses on eBay. :)
  • nybrokernybroker Member Posts: 25
    In 2001 Hyundai entered the luxury market into the US. They introduced the XG300. It was supposed to compete with the likes of Lexus, Acura, and Infinity at the time. The vehicle had plenty of features, was quite comfortable, and priced fully loaded under 30K. I owned one of those.. FOR A VERY SHORT TIME
    From day 1 only had problems some minor from rattles, unrefined engine/transmission etc to major items such as continutous oil leakes replacement of many engine parts.
    In summary the car was poorly made and with less than 50K miles I had traded it in.
    Its experiences like this that I will NEVER buy a Hyundai again.
    In 2007 I test drove a VeraCruz could not pull the trigger
    Horrible experience drives folks away.
  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Them are some of the skinniest mirrors I've ever seen on an automobile, man. Whoo!

    As Fin said, they look very much like the mirrors that Japanese manufacturers put on cars for home market distribution back in the 70s & 80s. You like them? I think they make Hyundai's concept look dated.

    As for the rest of the design, I could say that it reminds me of the huge bugs that I see hovering around the porch light on a hot summer night. But I won't.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The XG300 a luxury car? Hardly. It was introduced to compete with cars like the Avalon and Maxima (although it was much closer to the Avalon in driving dynamics). It started at under $24k. It had less equipment and power than a 2006 Sonata LX. But it was the forerunner for the Azera--which also is not a luxury car. Unless you think cars like the Avalon and Maxima are luxury cars.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    As Fin said, they look very much like the mirrors that Japanese manufacturers put on cars for home market distribution back in the 70s & 80s

    Those aren't mirrors, they are cameras, the rear display is in the dash. :shades:
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    I am sure the Edge is a nice vehicle, but how does it blow away the Stepford wife's choice (I assume you mean the RX)?

    Lincoln is an interesting subject...to those over 40


    Yes, I have driven the RX Lexus, wasn't impressed at all with it, other than being a tad bit quieter in the ride than the Veracruz, it was a whole lot noisier in the engine department, and not a nice noise at that. The interior of the Edge in the 2011 model is a lot better looking than what the others have to offer, and for a lot less money.

    As far as Lincoln goes, I think the MKT, which is the Flex based model, is really well appointed, and has a ton of power in it. Would I buy one over a Flex, nope, I can't see spending an extra $10K for the same ride, same as I would not buy an ES over a Camry. At least there is a big difference between a Flex and the MKT, unlike the ES to a Camry. The MKT is only based on the Flex platform, the body and interior are different. An MKZ which is the upscale Fusion, is also one I would not spend the extra on. Other than some different skin, and Homelink on the visor(Why the Fusion doesn't have it is beyond me), it is basically the same car. At the CAS there was not a single Town Car or Grand Marquis, next year will be the last year for both models, and the end of an era for the RWD body on frame cars. :cry:

    I have driven and ridden in a Mercedes S600, and frankly I could not see spending the money these cars cost. For what reason? To show you're a snob with money? Hey looky I have an expensive car and you don't, and that my friends is what the definition of Luxury is all about! Those who put Hyundai down are a good example of that, oh you drive a Hyundai, what cant afford a REAL car?
    When I had my Veracruz, and would pull up next to an RX350, I would look over and laugh because I know they paid more for it and got less. I will happily get another Hyundai if the need ever arose, the only reason I didn't replace the Veracruz with an AWD version was cost, I got an excellent deal on the Flex that I couldn't pass up, and after being at the auto show, and looking at all the other brands with cars of similar size, I know I made a good choice with it, no other car out there has the room and convenience of the Flex, Except the MKT, some were obviously more "luxurious" with fine leather and real wood, but you cant seat 6 adults in 2 buckets and a bench, but you can seat them all comfortably in the Flex.

    You know what really matters to me is having a home to raise my children in, to me that is more important than what brand of car I drive, I prefer my 6000 SqFt house, 5+ acres and 3 horses over some expensive branded car.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I don't like the RX either, both for its blandness and for its target market. I live in the center of the trophy wife universe for my region, and driving behind those things is torture.

    People drive a S600 for the feat of keeping one of the most complex cars in automotive history on the road. It's bought new just to have the most cylinders, and then kept around to prove that the owner can deal with such madness. Cars are not logical machines.

    6000 sq ft? Sounds about as practical as running an old S600 as a taxi ...what's the point of having such a large house? ;) ...different people have different priorities...that's what makes things interesting, variety. If everyone drove a practical logical car, this would be a boring world.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited March 2010
    those "mirrors" are really cameras. He's right. I think.

    And no, I never said that I liked the "mirrors" at all. I asked if anyone knew anything about them. Since no one really knows for sure I'm gonna go with the notion that they're cameras.

    Just sort of putting out "feelers" here and hunting and gathering. I think I'm gonna see something great in the Azera size range soon, something that is now called the Hyundai i-flow concept. That's all there is to say about it, right? Yes, we'll have it here in one of Hyundai's biggest markets, the United States of America.

    Any dangling participles here that need re-hashing and haberdashing? :confuse:

    Yes, I do like the body style, not those funky mirrors. I knew something was up about them.

    Who's getting Joe Namath information that the car isn't coming to da States, anyway?

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • LASHAWNLASHAWN Member Posts: 303
    Well I test drove both cars, Genesis was 2009 model, and I liked the ride of the Genesis a whole lot better. In my mind the Avalon had the floaty ride and the Genesis felt as if I were riding on air. This is my opinion after having driven both vehicles, so when the time comes I will be purchasing/leasing the Genesis.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Glad that you took the time to check both vehicles out. It makes a difference in people who see for themselves when they compare cars side by side. There are others that just assume that the Genesis is inferior to other luxury cars.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    In my mind the Avalon had the floaty ride and the Genesis felt as if I were riding on air.

    That is why ride is sooooooo subjective. Riding on air is the absolute last statement I would make about the Genesis's ride. However, ride aside you will be making a good purchase. I am just about to hit 9000 miles and no problems to date. Car has been flawless in that regard.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Perhaps Hyundai feels so confident in the quality of their vehicles from top to bottom that they feel that they don't have to create another brand or marque.

    Perhaps Hyundai doesn't feel inferior like Toyota and Honda obviously did when they spun off Lexus and Acura. I'm trying to think of something that would make me change my family name. It would take something pretty drastic. I think it would be easier to rehabilitate it rather than attempt to hide it.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Inferior? I doubt it. Since no Asian automaker was known in the US for luxury cars at that time (with the possible exception of the Cressida), they took a reasonable approach in creating separate luxury brands/identities. But now it's well known that Asian automakers can produce luxury cars with the best of them. The J3's success in selling luxury vehicles helped pave the way for Hyundai to do it 20 years later. Except Hyundai decided to use their foray into the luxury market as a way to build the perception of their brand, vs. creating a new brand.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    Perhaps Hyundai doesn't feel inferior like Toyota and Honda obviously did when they spun off Lexus and Acura. I'm trying to think of something that would make me change my family name.

    I think it was more than that. It was a way to gain market share. It added more dealerships and exposure. The LS was a way for Toyota to take sales away from BMW and Mercedes. They were not doing that with any other vehicles they were selling at the time.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    When the basement and old converted garage is added into the mix, it comes out to 6000 SqFt, but in reality, the rooms are small. It is a long, narrow ranch home, but it has 7 bedrooms and 4 baths. Someone added an in-law apartment to it. I added 3 bedrooms downstairs, with room for one more and a large family room, then a nice workshop under the addition. Two bedrooms are 9 x 13 down stairs, and one is a big larger that we use as an office. The other bedrooms that came with the house are small too, a queen water bed fills them with barely enough room for a dresser. On paper it sounds huge, but in reality it is just a lot of wasted space. The garage though, HUGE, 4 car, very deep on the house side, I can fit my F350 Dually Crewcab Longbed in, with a shelf and air compressor behind it, and room to pass in front of it with the door closed. The garage is almost as long as the house, and that was one of the reasons we bought it, the other was the room and barn for our horses. Looking back though, I wish we had done an inspection and saved us thousands in repair costs, which are still on going, we had to replace all the plumbing, still have 2 baths left to replace, replace the furnace, add a second one for the room addition, rewire nearly the entire house, and shore up the main beam under the bathrooms where some fool notched it out for a pocket door. Some days I feel like a slight gas leak would make my day. BOOM, start over.

    I saw that car, at least I think it was that car, at the auto show, the one with the funky mirrors, and you could see the dash and see yourself in the dash through the cameras in the mirrors, so those are cameras.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe we can change the name of the discussion to, "Is there room in acdii's ranch home for Hyundai?"
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Sounds like the Genesis has more room than acdii's house!!!lol
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Your garage sounds much more interesting than the house ...in fact, it kind of sounds like the old MB S600 of houses ;) ...and don't let the insurance man see those gas leak wishes!

    If those wings are cameras, that's some lame technology...other makers have the same type of camera stuff, but can make it discreet. I don't want those weird things sticking out of my car.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    Hyundai made adjustments to the 2010 ride so the rear suspension isn't an issue; on that same basis, the "ride" on the Avalon (soft, floaty) is better than on the Lexus GS.

    As for being brand conscious - the Japanese are just as much, if not more so (designer luxury bags are probably a bigger deal in Japan).

    Again, there is a distinction btwn luxury car and luxury brand; eveb tho Mercedes is a luxury brand, the A and B Classes, even tho they carry the Mercedes badge are NOT luxury vehicles.

    The $65K Toyota Land Cruiser is a luxury SUV, even if carries the mainstream Toyota badge; it certainly is more "luxury" than the majority of the Lexus lineup (particularly the ES, IS and HS), not to mention anything in the Acura lineup.

    The Corvette, despite being a Chevy, is a high end sports car (tho, not at the exotic level); sam goes for the Nissan GT-R, etc.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    Well, Hyundai does have plans on the drawing board for a luxury brand to be launched in 5-6 yrs time - to coincide w/ the launch of the next gen Genesis sedan and coupe, as well as a smaller entry level (sporty) sedan.

    But what you say about MB and BMW is very true.

    Over in Europe, aside from the E Class being one of the most common taxi cars, Mercedes models (particularly, everything but the S Class) can be had w/ pleather seats and rather anemic powerplants; hardly the stuff of "luxury" cars.

    And neither Mercedes and BMW are particularly known for the luxuriousness of their interiors - altho both have gotten better, esp. w/ the F segment sedans, both still have stinkers like the current C Class or the X3.

    But probably the best example of an auto brand undergoing change is VW; during the '70s, they were known primarily as makers of the cheap Beetle; now VW is seen as being the premium mainstream brand.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    The $65K Toyota Land Cruiser is a luxury SUV, even if carries the mainstream Toyota badge; it certainly is more "luxury" than the majority of the Lexus lineup (particularly the ES, IS and HS), not to mention anything in the Acura lineup.

    Then how do you describe the Lexus LX which is based off the Land Cruiser? Obviously, Toyota felt the need to make a "luxury" full size SUV.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,849
    Here is a spy photo of the upcoming Equus.... lets not hope this is a trend. What is up with that wing? Hopefully, just a way of disguising the car.

    image

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    LOL!

    "Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus are the main luxury brands; this 1st tier and 2nd tier stuff is nothing but a bunch of BS; before you and others make the ridiculous statements about Acura that you have, why don't you all go and get one."

    *********

    Why would I get an Acura when I could have the better driving dynamics (much less better prestige) and RWD of a BMW?

    As for the whole tier-1 luxury stuff, aside from the consensus on numerous auto boards catering to luxury buyers that Acura is NOT a tier 1 luxury brand, auto publications also say the same thing.

    From MotorAuthority -

    http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1025150_acura-forges-ahead-with-tier-1-luxury- -plans-nsx-could-be-revived

    "Overall image in the marketplace and status on the street have likewise proven difficult to develop. That's why Acura is making a hard push specifically to boost its image and achieve 'tier 1' luxury carmaker status."

    From Auto Spies -

    http://www.autospies.com/news/Acura-to-make-huge-shift-to-tier-1-luxury-will-off- er-Acura-only-vehicles-26623/

    "We’re not at all impressed with the new Acura RL or the new TSX, but it seems like Acura is having dreams of a “huge shift” next year that will move the brand closer to tier 1 luxury brands such as BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Lexus."

    From Leftlanenews -

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/acura-to-continue-push-to-tier-1-brand-nsx-hangs-on-- to-life-support.html

    "Tough economic conditions have forced several automakers to delay or completely abandon future plans, but Acura says its quest to become a Tier 1 luxury automaker is still on. Acura laid out its plan to become a Tier 1 automaker at a recent dealer meeting."

    From egmcartech -

    http://www.egmcartech.com/2008/12/08/how-long-will-it-take-acura-still-aiming-to- -become-a-big-league-luxury-player/

    How long will it take? Acura still aiming to become a big-league luxury player?

    It seems like dealer Dave Conant really believes in Acura and Honda’s U.S. executives when they say Acura will soon be a top-tier luxury brand playing in the major leagues with Lexus, Mercedes and BMW. So much so that Conant spent $20 million upgrading his Acura dealership in suburban Los Angeles betting that this time Honda will succeed.

    “We invested in this facility on the bet they really mean it,” Conant told Automotive News.

    Jeff Conrad, vice president of American Honda’s Acura division admits that dealer expectations are high. He says that Acura is working hard to improve its vehicles, marketing, and retail network but reaching those goals will take some time.

    “Every product we launch becomes more of a Tier 1 product.” Conrad says. “But you don’t just snap your fingers and do it overnight. It is a long-term effort.”

    ***************

    Hmmm, it seems that even Acura executives DON'T think that Acura is yet a tier 1 luxury brand.

    How 'bout more quotes from Honda/Acura brass?

    From Edmunds -

    http://blogs.insideline.com/straightline/2007/09/acura-redefines-brand-image.htm- l

    Acura wants to be known as a "Tier 1" luxury brand, and as such, is in the process of redefining their product line and their image.

    “Our goal is to move Acura into a Tier 1 luxury brand,” says John Mendel, the executive vice president of automobile operations for American Honda. “We’re pretty clear about it. BMW is well established, and Acura is not in terms of a brand image..."

    ***********

    For someone who purportedly is/was an Acura owner and asserts to be knowledgable about the industry, much less Acura - you seem to know amazingly little about how Acura's management sees itself and its future.

    Apparently, Acura is ABANDONING its effort to make it to tier 1 status and is focusing on "SMART luxury."

    "According to sources, Acura dealers are being told that going forward, Acura will be abandoning the 'Tier 1' initiative. The new focus is said to be 'Smart Luxury'."

    http://tsxclub.com/forums/automotive-discussion/40554-acura-smart-luxury-not-tie- r-1-a.html

    http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=868825&thread_style=fancy

    "you show me the link to where people who own Acura's are saying that Acura isn't aluxury brand or pretends to be one; I'd love to see that!"

    ******************

    Aside from the ones above - http://rl.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75813

    "I'm really sick of tired of people making these ridiculous claims that the Acura TSX and TL are rebadaged Accords and vice versa; I don't care what models they are outside this country, I only care about whats offered here! I found that people, like yourself, who make these ridiculous rebadage claims have either:

    A) can't afford the luxury cars themselves so decide to put them down as rebadaged version to make themselves feel better that they only can afford the mainstreams

    [or]

    B) have never even test drove these models back to back in order to see the various differences between them that makes them separate entities"

    *********

    Funny, considering that I come from a family that long have driven BMWs and Porsches; and the no matter how one looks at it, the TSX IS the JDM/Euro Honda Accord.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So... do we need a new discussion, "Is there room in the luxury market for Acura?"

    :sick:
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    As already stated, the XG300 was the precursor to the Azera and thus, not a luxury model.

    And yeah, the XG was crappy, esp. the ones w/ Mitsu drivetrains and powerplants.

    Hyundai now is totally diff. from Hyundai of 6-12 yrs ago; much the same way that Honda of the 1980s was diff. from Honda of the 1960-70s.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    I saw that one...didn't want to create a firestorm here by posting it :shades:

    Manufacturer plates too, nice. Maybe that's the "tuned" H I have heard about.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    Oh, you can even get an S class with fake leather in Germany...of course, the average consumer can't tell it from the real thing.

    I haven't seen anyone else in the world classify the W204 C as a "stinker" inside...

    Firm no-nonsense interior design isn't a bad thing in the eyes of many. Germans have always gone for the austere treatment, as opposed to the nouveau riche Lexus ideal.
  • j2jj2j Member Posts: 147
    OK, maybe "stinker" was a overly harsh (still holds true for the BMW X3) - but still disappointing for the price-range, esp. in comparison to the interior of the A4.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,092
    edited March 2010
    Yeah, Audi has made some admirable interiors, with much more detailing than BMW and MB...of course, it took long enough for the four-ringed cars themselves to catch up ;)

    I have owned various years of C, E, and S...and they all seem similar in their lack of showy details, which I am not complaining about. Form follows function.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited March 2010
    again, your links prove nothing but rumor and speculation! show me a link where honda and acura corporate stated they were canceling the V8 and RWD platform and then you'd have more credibility

    in fact, the one link lists the source as anonymous, yeah that's really proof positive, lol!!!! :D
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Why would I get an Acura when I could have the better driving dynamics (much less better prestige) and RWD of a BMW?

    As for the whole tier-1 luxury stuff, aside from the consensus on numerous auto boards catering to luxury buyers that Acura is NOT a tier 1 luxury brand, auto publications also say the same thing


    Acura isn't trying to compete with BMW in terms of sports performance and handling, they are trying to build a refined, well made, luxury vehicle that is good in all areas, much like MB; I've always thought BMWs were overpriced, glorified, overrated, race cars that could never beat or even come close to the resale value or reliability that Acura has and because of that I've felt BMW has lacked prestige because of those latter points! but everyone's idea of luxury and prestige is different, I don't think BMW is and you don't think Acura is so who cares!

    by the way, those suppose links where Acura owners don't think that Acura is that luxurious compared to the rest is all bogus and BS; I belong to two of those blogs and no one says that; that is def something you made up; plus your links open to nothing, no specific topic, etc!

    just because you and other's don't like their current styling cues does not mean they are not in tier 1 luxury now! plus, all those random links you posted from different sites are all people's opinion and speculation that they are not in tier 1 and doesn't mean anything to me since I've read several articles from some of those same sites among others stating the exact obvious so it doesn't prove anything

    your statement that you would never be in a Acura when you could be in a BMW, Audi, etc just goes to show your bias against them and why your opinion has not weight! again, go buy and own one, experience the dealership, sales process, etc and then come back and let us know; until you do that, you can't come close to giving a fair and un-bias opinion/review!
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    How's this then?

    http://www.egmcartech.com/2009/08/31/acuras-v10-v8-plans-on-hold-for-now-may-pla- n-rsx-successor/

    From the article:

    Just last summer, Acura dealers were told to look forward to a V8 version of the Acura RL. But the program was put on hold by Honda President Takanobu Ito as part of the company’s cost cutting efforts. Also gone was the rear-wheel-drive program, which has now been pushed back to 2015 at the earliest, report Automotive News
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited March 2010
    again, your providing the information from a third party auto blog; I want to see the press release from Honda or Acura stating they are canceling the V8 RWD platform for the time being; I'm searching Honda and Acura media newsroom right now!

    they better not have! it was suppose to go into the RL for the 2011 model year; God knows that car needs it to become their top car again and compete with the V8 options from Infiniti, BMW, Lexus, Audi, and Mercedes
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    edited March 2010
    How about this then from Ward's Auto dated 7/29/2009. If you want to see it for yourself, you will need to purchase a subscription to login to their site.

    Acura Says Can Achieve Tier-1 Status Without RWD
    By Christie Schweinsberg
    WardsAuto.com, Jul 29, 2009 3:25 PM

    ROCHESTER, MI – Despite buzz from Japan that Honda Motor Co. Ltd. has shelved development of a rear-wheel-drive platform for its Acura luxury brand, a U.S. Acura official remains confident.
    “Can we compete with (first-tier luxury) brands Mercedes, Lexus and BMW without RWD? Yes,” Gary Robinson, assistant manager-Acura product planning, tells Ward’s Tuesday during an Acura media event.
    Robinson does not discuss the program’s cancellation, but new Honda CEO Takanobu Ito rocked the Acura faithful last week when he reportedly announced work had been halted on a RWD initiative.
    Analysts and industry watchers blame Acura’s prolonged near-luxury status on its lack of RWD platforms and V-8 engines.
    “It would be meaningless to emulate what other companies have been doing for more than five decades,” Ito reportedly said of nixing RWD and a V-8. Development of the latter had been championed by former Honda CEO Takeo Fukui.
    “Just when it seems like things were looking up for Acura…the news has been steadily getting worse for the past six months or so,” Jeff Palmer, founder of the enthusiast website Temple of VTEC, says in a posted response to Ito.
    “The cumulative effect of this series of blows is taking its toll on Acura's brand credibility amongst enthusiasts, which arguably drive a brand's overall image.”
    Robinson says Ito’s remarks were not defeatist in any way, just his way of saying Acura wants to carve out its own version of luxury instead of following competitors.

    Acura TSX V-6 variant signals brand strategy.
    “I don’t think Ito-san said anything that stood out in one way or another for us, because I think we’re all pretty clear on what the direction for Acura is,” Robinson says, adding Honda founder Soichiro Honda pioneered this sort of thinking.
    “His thing was about being a renegade and doing things his own way and trying to figure out what was the right thing for the market and the right thing for the customer… not just copying other people,” he says.
    “So, at Acura, that’s definitely something we’ve been thinking about a lot. What does it mean to make an Acura luxury car? You shouldn’t be like everybody else. We don’t want to be another Lexus; we don’t want to be another BMW; we don’t want to be another Mercedes.
    “We want somebody who’s shopping those cars to think of us in the same breath, and we want them to have a reason for buying our car that’s different.”
    Robinson is fuzzy about Acura’s brand direction but says boosting fuel economy is a major focus, noting any technology that improves fuel economy is “something we’re going to be looking at.”
    Those technologies include direct injection, cylinder deactivation, hybrid-electric vehicles and the possible migration of the 2.3L turbocharged 4-cyl. in the RDX small cross/utility vehicle to other Acura models.
    Expanding the engine’s use is “another one of those things we’re looking at as an option to improve fuel economy and another one that has the potential to offer both fuel economy and power,” Robinson says.
    Direct injection, while enabling more efficient combustion, has downsides such as added cost and noise, he says. A nearer-term fuel-economy solution is Acura’s first 6-speed automatic transmission, rolling out in the ’10 MDX CUV, as well as the new ’10 ZDX 4-door sports coupe, later this year.
    Compared with the ’09 MDX, which mated a 3.7L V-6 engine to a 5-speed automatic transmission, the ’10 MDX’s fuel-economy rating is expected to improve by 1 mpg (0.4 km/L) in both city and highway driving to 16-21 mpg (14.7-11.2 L/100 km) city/highway.
    The 6-speed transmission eventually will make its way into other Acura models, Robinson says. Near-term it also is set to power the ZDX.
    Despite Acura’s fuel-economy aspirations, don’t expect a diesel engine from the brand. Honda says the 4-cyl. i-DTEC turbodiesel mill, a version of which powers the European Honda Accord, sold as the TSX in the U.S., is delayed.
    Sources told Ward’s last fall the engine was destined for the TSX.
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    American Honda Motor Co. Inc. spokesman Chuck Schifsky says to get the diesel back on track isn’t a simple matter of picking up where development left off. Engineers would need to reevaluate diesel’s position in the U.S. market from the point in time they decide to reinsert the engine into the product pipeline.
    However, Acura will use its Super-Handling All-Wheel Drive system to enhance its luxury cachet. Already featured on the RL and MDX, the system debuts this fall on the TL sedan, Robinson says.
    “We like what it’s done for the brand. Our customers like it. It’s been a very good image thing for Acura,” he says. “The technology itself will continue to evolve.”
    Customer research shows AWD is becoming a must-have feature for luxury buyers, Robinson says, regardless of where they live.
    Other future strategies include introducing more variants of existing models. That already is taking place with the ’10 TSX, going on sale soon. It benefits from Acura’s optional 3.5L V-6 engine, a step up from its standard-equipment 2.4L inline 4-cyl.
    “All of us now have to look at Civic-, Accord- and CR-V-type vehicles on the Honda side (and) that volume number,” says Schifsky. “I don’t know if we’re ever going to see those kinds of (high-volume) vehicles crop up again.”
    “Niching the niche of a niche” is any auto maker’s best hope for volume growth and expansion of its lineup, he adds. “We’re in as good a position as anybody to capitalize on that (strategy).”


    Now back to our regularly scheduled topic. ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    So... do we need a new discussion, "Is there room in the luxury market for Acura?"

    Don't go there - we'll wind up with "Is there room in the luxury market for Volvo" too, and additional ones for all the rest. :shades:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It seems we've already "gone there".
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    my whole point being is that this first tier and second tier PERCEPTION is ridiculous and has no reason or logic in the real world! it has been created by third party car blogs based solely on opinion; as j2j just prove, he himself has never bought or owned a Acura, experienced the dealership and customer service, yet can sit there and put Acura down and say their products are rebadaged Honda's; again he only proves my point, just like these car reviewers who throw the rebadge terms around, they don't actually go and test drive these suppose rebadaged vehicles back-to-back and have ever owned or gone through the luxury experience to be making those comments

    its all based on opinion, not fact, and that makes it true, of course not!

    the whole basis of this ridiculous 2nd tier and 1st tier ranking is that Acura is not on the same level because they don't have a RWD/V8, they don't have a sport coupe right now, they don't have styling everyone likes, and they don't have the sports handling that BMW or Infiniti have! I say, who cares! what does any of that have to do with a luxury automaker in a tier ranking? Chevy and Nissan have RWD/V8 options but they aren't considered 1st tier luxury by any means of the imagination so it doesn't have anything to do with anything! Acura beats its competition in quality, reliability, resale value, customer service, buying experience, etc! that is all things that make them JUST as good as BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, etc!!

    what he has done, would be analogous to me saying, BMW is not luxury, and are not good products, despite the fact I've never owned a BMW! how could I make a statement like that if I have never bought or owned one? I couldn't!

    I've had Acura's, Infiniti's, and Mercedes and I can tell you that Acura is DEFINITELY on the same level as the rest!

    considering Acura is "supposed" to be a wannabe luxury automaker, they do seem to win a lot of LUXURY awards against their "supposed" 1st tier BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus competition, along with kicking their butt in resale value again and again!

    in order to bring this back to the point of this forum, this is analogous to Hyundai in that people put down the Genesis constantly like it is a piece of trash because it has a H on its front grill, well actually thats not true, it doesn't have anything on its front grill, and that it is not luxury, because its a Hyundai, despite the fact it is similarly priced and optioned with RWD/V8 with its competition, and has won numerous luxury car awards! what really tees me off :mad: it is just like Acura, most people who criticize the Genesis don't actually go and test drive the vehicles so that they can make a more unbias comparison and criticism if necessary, they just blindly say the vehicle is crap and not luxury!
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited March 2010
    “Can we compete with (first-tier luxury) brands Mercedes, Lexus and BMW without RWD? Yes,” Gary Robinson, assistant manager-Acura product planning, tells Ward’s Tuesday during an Acura media event.
    Robinson does not discuss the program’s cancellation, but new Honda CEO Takanobu Ito rocked the Acura faithful last week when he reportedly announced work had been halted on a RWD initiative.
    Analysts and industry watchers blame Acura’s prolonged near-luxury status on its lack of RWD platforms and V-8 engines.
    “It would be meaningless to emulate what other companies have been doing for more than five decades,” Ito reportedly said of nixing RWD and a V-8. Development of the latter had been championed by former Honda CEO Takeo Fukui.
    “Just when it seems like things were looking up for Acura…the news has been steadily getting worse for the past six months or so,” Jeff Palmer, founder of the enthusiast website Temple of VTEC, says in a posted response to Ito.
    “The cumulative effect of this series of blows is taking its toll on Acura's brand credibility amongst enthusiasts, which arguably drive a brand's overall image.”
    Robinson says Ito’s remarks were not defeatist in any way, just his way of saying Acura wants to carve out its own version of luxury instead of following competitors


    it interesting to note in your posts and in j2j, that the Acura brass never said that they were not a top tier luxury brand but CAN compete with them, meaning they are on the same level! again, I noticed that the OPINION based bias and statement that they are a near-luxury brand is thought about in the ENTHUSIAST COMMUNITY; meaning, the sport performance community doesn't think they are luxury because they don't have a race car focus like Infiniti and BMW do!

    NEWS FLASH, their is more to luxury then high sport performance engines and handling; if this is the judgment of what is and what is not top tier luxury then Acura, Lexus, Mercedes, and Audi would not be considered top-tier since their companies do not have a enthusiast focus/mission for their product line! God forbid if these four companies are more focused on building and producing much more well rounded in all category luxury vehicles!

    I mean they just dumped a 305HP V6 engine into the TL with AWD and manual option! that might not be able to beat a BMW 3-series on paper but it should at least be able to keep up with it ;)

    I'm still looking for confirmation directly from Honda and Acura that they canceled the RWD/V8! I've posted on several Acura owner blogs and will wait to find out more info before reporting back!
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Oh, you can even get an S class with fake leather in Germany...of course, the average consumer can't tell it from the real thing.

    How condescending. I'm leaving. Where's my jacket? It's suede with fringe on the sleeves.
  • acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    Frankly Luxury is all about image. The more expensive the car, the higher class it makes the owner feel. The best example of this is Lexus vs Hyundai. If you look at the RX class and the Veracruz, they are both equal to each other in features, trim fit, finish, etc. Yet, which will people flock to? The Lexus of course because of it's name. Why would it be any different with the Genesis vs other RWD models?

    I used to be a mechanic years back when Hyundai was known for cheap throw away cars, so the perception on them was just that, cheap throw away cars. It wasn't until I went to the 2008 Chicago Auto Show when we were in the market for a 6 passenger CUV and discovered Hyundai was no longer the throw away car company they were once known for. In fact Hyundai is now known as the 4th reliable car manufacturer today, right up there with the J3. The Santa Fe is one of the most reliable SUV's on the road today, and has been for many many years.

    It's all about the image, I'll take the Hyundai over the others and save a few bucks when looking for a luxury ride. For now, I got my Fusion, but some day, I hope to have a V8 Genesis in my garage.

    BTW my Father in law busted his S600 again, its a 6 banger now. :sick: :P
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    exactly, very nice points acdii!!! its just like I've been saying, its the people with BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus that look down upon Acura, Hyundai, etc!

    even if I believed this 1st and 2nd tier luxury stuff, which I don't, do you realize how bad it makes Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes look to lose luxury awards, resale value, reliability, etc to suppose lower tier Acura and Hyundai brands ;)
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    its just like I've been saying, its the people with BMW, Mercedes, and Lexus that look down upon Acura, Hyundai, etc!

    folks have historically been fanboys of the German brands have ALWAYS looked down on the upstart Lexus and Acura brands - ever since the 80s. And not withour reason - on one side of the Atlantic the definitive 'sports' sedans are built that do put a lot more emphasis on the performance side of the equation, while those upstarts on the other side of the Pacific do better at the softer 'highway cruiser' and product reliability. There are a number of BMW/MB owners that wouldn't touch a Lexus - at any price and there are also those J3 'luxury' owners that will never understand putting that much money into something and then watch it spend an inordinate amount of time in the shop. Both 'sides' have their points.
    As acdii did say, however, luxury is a lot about image - something Hyundai doesn't have today - and may never have. Acura, in my mind, still has that image but is waiting for a product to justify it - by current standards. I can't help but equating Acura to somebody like Volvo - but that is hardly fair to Acura....
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Au contrare, Hyundai DOES have an image. I think it can be summed up as "value with quality". Around ten years ago, the image was much different: "cheap ride". Huge strides have been made since then, at least in the eyes of the automotive press and many car shoppers. Some folks of course are still "partying as in 1999" (sorry Prince).

    So, the question is, is there some significant slice of the luxury market that is looking for value and quality, in addition to all the other attributes of a luxury car? I think there is. The J3 proved that 20 years ago when they hit the luxury market with quality cars that were low priced relative to their European competitors.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    very nicely said backy!! Hyundai is definitely "value with quality"; as another posted just prove, their is this idea that true luxury is in sport performance, but the last time I checked, Acura, Hyundai, Lexus, Mercedes, and Audi do not have a sport performance and handling focus/mission that BMW and Infiniti do! their is more to luxury then having the fastest, most powerful, gas eating vehicles on the planet!

    its probably why the ENTHUSIAST community has such a problem with Acura, Hyundai, Lexus, etc because their vehicles are more focused on giving the consumer a much more "jack of all trades, master of none" approach to luxury vehicles!
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