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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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    jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    What fin said.

    As a BMW owner & fan of German steel, I'd say that BMW's new offerings - specifically, the latest 5-series - are obviously a response to a resurgent Audi. I don't think that BMW senior management expected Audi to roar back from the dead as decisively as it has.

    In my German-car-loving NYC suburb, I see far more Audis than I did 3 or 4 years ago. As far as I can tell, Audi's gains are at the expense of other German brands.

    I don't think that BMW pays nearly as much attention to any Asian competitor - not even to Infiniti, which some think of as the Japanese BMW.
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    It's a good article. I think it's fairly accurate and well balanced. Insecure BMW enthusiasts will probably be offended by the comparison. Hyundai owners will say the price difference is a lot wider given Hyundai's large discounts. And what about the failure to mention Hyundai's superior warranty? :blush:
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    which is all, I have ever said, for HYUNDAI to 'find room' in the luxury market, they must establish a luxury brand (why is there a need to keep repeating this?)

    That's a good question: why is there a need for you to keep repeating this? If someone says "The sun rises in the West" hundreds of times, does it make it any more true?

    I think it's indisputable that Hyundai has already carved out ROOM in the luxury market, based on facts such as sales of the Genesis. The point open for discussion is, when will Hyundai (by whatever badge on the trunk lid) be viewed by the majority of buyers as being equal to established luxury brands like MB and Lexus? That is, when will the size of Hyundai's luxury "room" be at least same as that of competitors like those?
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Deal of the Week: Hyundai Special Pricing Through Costco (Edmunds Daily)

    Well, why not? Tiffany was worried about Costco selling diamonds a few years back (CNN).

    The bad news for Hyundai is that "sales of both vehicles have not lived up to expectations, with the Genesis averaging under 2,000 units sold (Sedan and Coupe combined) per month this year and the Veracruz averaging only about 500 deliveries. Just for comparison, BMW has out-sold the Genesis with their 5-Series and the Lexus RX has outsold the Veracruz."
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Many people have commented that it has a harsh/rough ride, is very uncomfortable in the seats, and lacks the refinement the IS, ES, and LS have.

    Indeed, this what Toyota and Lexus have both done very well over the years - understanding the American preference for the 'soft' boulevard cruiser. Simply put, what is 'refined' to the American carbuyer is usually a whole lot different than what is for the European. Blame it on those ludricrous spongebob warboats of the past, but the American carbuyer seeks isolation from his driving chores , the European wants involvement.
    Most of your German sedan fanboys will have no use for Lexus products for precisely that reason - even to the pont of sacrificing Lexus' superior reliabilites for the German sedan's better dynamics. There is a fine line, apparently, between a firm controlled ride and one that is too harsh (by American standards). The German sedans, at least to this point, seem to be about the only ones that can find that line. Infinitis, I guess, do come closer to that Germanic feel although even they come up short - just like the GSs, IMO
    It should be easier for Hyundai to try to emulate the Lexus approach as opposed to what the G3 do
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    smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Its going to be a very long time backy before anyone will ever consider Hyundai as being equal to MB, Lexus, and BMW. I mean, Audi, Infiniti, and Acura have been around in this country a lot longer than Hyundai and even they are not considered equal and are still working hard/struggling to raise their status and these are established luxury brands. If they are struggling as luxury brands for reputation and prestige that BMW, MB, and Lexus has in this country, its going to take Hyundai a long time, since they are no where even near the level of Audi, Infiniti, or Acura in the luxury regard!
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    sales of both vehicles have not lived up to expectations
    and
    BMW has out-sold the Genesis with their 5-Series and the Lexus RX has outsold the Veracruz."
    you have to wonder if it isn't the Hyundai name holding things back, it's not like the Hyundai products don't have significant price advantages. :confuse:
    Here's a vote that says that the sales would be doing better had they established the Genesis name and the Genesis dealer.
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    smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited May 2010
    Very nice assessment and completely agree with you. I like Lexus and they make some of the most comfortable, softness riding products on the market and that in combo with their sloppy handling has never appealed to me to buy there products yet, though you are right, Lexus sales in this country are even higher than that of BMW and MB which shows what the American consumer feels is important. Personally, I like the driving dynamics that BMW, Infiniti, and Audi offer. MB, at least their more common products, are similar to Lexus in driving dynamics, but with a bit more refinement in handling and suspension set-up, but not up to the standard of Infiniti, Audi, and BMW!
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I think it's indisputable that Hyundai has already carved out ROOM in the luxury market, based on facts such as sales of the Genesis
    and I think it is VERY disputable ---- selling a lousy 1500/month in the $40k upscale sedan segment is somewhat insignificant and does not mean that anybody has necessarily accepted the Genesis as a luxury car or Hyundai FTM as a 'player' in the luxury segment.
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    jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Insecure BMW enthusiasts will probably be offended by the comparison. Hyundai owners will say the price difference is a lot wider given Hyundai's large discounts. And what about the failure to mention Hyundai's superior warranty?

    This not at all insecure BMW owner isn't offended in the least. I just think that the comparison is sort of silly. But that's the beauty of the Internet: it provides an audience for this stuff. You can compare a microwave oven to a miniature poodle, & someone, somewhere will link to your article & call you perspicacious. I love this stuff, dumb as it is, & that's probably why I waste as much time as I do on the Web.

    Length of warranty doesn't matter to the majority of 5-series owners who are out of their leases before the warranties run out. I'm the relatively rare bird who owns my BMW, which will turn 9 next month. (Knock wood - no real problems yet.)

    If I could spend 5 minutes with BMW's CEO, I'd tell him to worry more about the Infiniti; the new Ms are far & away the biggest Asian threats to the 5-series. And whereas the Genesis still can't be had with AWD - IMO, a colossal blunder on Hyundai's part - both the M37 & M56 offer AWD variants. Here in NY, upwards of 90% of the Ms will be sold or leased with AWD.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I guess Infiniti is a failure in the luxury sedan market then. Their M sales have been typically under 1500/month in the past year or two.

    Actually, what 1500 Genesis sedan sales a month means is that some 18,000 buyers a year have accepted Hyundai as a maker of luxury cars, despite the Hyundai badge. Is that a huge "room"? No. Is it a "room"? Yes. How long has Hyundai been in the luxury market? Not even 2 years. Yet you beat them up for not equalling the sales of much more entrenched competitors such as BMW and Lexus.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    I guess Infiniti is a failure in the luxury sedan market then. Their M sales have been typically under 1500/month in the past year or two.
    Guess again- Sales numbers in the true lux segment is a different animal than sales in the cheaper upscale sedan segment. You need to compare and/or project your Gen sales within the segment that it is really in - not one that it isn't.
    what those 18000 buyers of the Genesis mean is that Hyundai has found that many buyers of a very nice upscale sedan!
    no more no less.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2010
    the European wants involvement.

    When I think of European cars, I think of stuff like this (and eSpace vans):

    image

    I have an album full of Italian cars almost as bad. It's been a couple of decades since I've been to Germany but I think you're making too large of a generalization about what the driving public drives over there (we may all prefer to be in Ferraris, but that's not the norm).
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    sure would get you 'INVOLVED' - just before you became a grease spot, wouldn't it? ;)
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited May 2010
    Tell me you wouldn't go from a Riscio to a Genesis and not think you were in the lap of luxury. :D
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    smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    True, the Genesis is not considered in the segment of the M, despite its similar size, power, and feature level. Actually, the M has done pretty well for Infiniti over the years. It slots in number 3 for total sales in the luxury sedan market, behind the E-class, and 5-series!
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    from a Riscio to a Genesis and not think you were in the lap of luxury
    actually I could sit in a Gen Sedan today and KNOW I'm in the lap of luxury as I do every day in my Avalon. But in either case, I just won't be sitting in a 'luxury' car.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    the Genesis is not considered in the segment of the M,
    to me it was the M that finally signaled Infiniti's arrival into luxland, after many years of being a bystander to Lexus and FTM Acura. Infiniti for many years had the name, had the dealers, and even to some extent had the rep but it wasn't until they had the M to supplement the earlier G that they really had any impact.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe you and captain2 don't consider the Genesis in the same segment as the M, even though the Genesis is about the same size, both offer RWD, and have similar engine choices (V6 and V8), but many automotive professionals do. If you want to continue to ding Hyundai just because they can deliver a car in that class for much less money, go right ahead. I suppose we have to do the same with Acura then--they can't possibly be luxury cars since they don't cost enough compared to some competitors.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    don't consider the Genesis in the same segment as the M, even though the Genesis is about the same size, both offer RWD, and have similar engine choices (V6 and V8),
    yep, such are the mysteries of the so called luxury market and what folks perceive it to be - IT IS NOT all about what's on a silly spec sheet - because if it was everybody - and I mean everybody - could make one. As I have said countless times before, the Gen is a perfectly fine effort at what could be a luxury car, especially if it could be blessed with a badge that said something other than Hyundai, a different place to be sold etc. etc.
    Don't know that either smarty or I have been 'dinging' Hyundai - only the Hyundai name and how it is perceived in the automobile market today - and only as that relates to their luxury aspirations. .
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You are talking out both sides of your mouth (again). Earlier you said:

    Guess again- Sales numbers in the true lux segment is a different animal than sales in the cheaper upscale sedan segment. You need to compare and/or project your Gen sales within the segment that it is really in - not one that it isn't.

    But now you say:

    As I have said countless times before, the Gen is a perfectly fine effort at what could be a luxury car, especially if it could be blessed with a badge that said something other than Hyundai, a different place to be sold etc. etc.

    So what is it that makes the Genesis not in the same class as cars like the M? Badge? Price? If it's price, you are "dinging" Hyundai for its ability to deliver a fine car at a lower price than competitors. Which IMO is unfair. If it's badge, well, we know where you stand on that, and you know where you can buy a "Genesis" badge for the trunk lid that will solve that little problem.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    So what is it that makes the Genesis not in the same class as cars like the M? Badge? Price? If it's price, you are "dinging" Hyundai for its ability to deliver a fine car at a lower price than competitors. Which IMO is unfair

    D. all of the above

    what you don't seem to understand (or want to acknowledge) is that what makes room in the luxury (or any other market) for pretty much anything is in some part those perceptions that travel with it. The Gen can not be a luxury car, not necessarily because of what the car physically is as much as it is all about the pedestrian perceptions (think Phaeton) that go with the Hyundai name, where the car is sold, what it is sold with and yes, to some degree, the fact that it is too darn cheap. Unfair?
    I'll agree with that, but who ever said it had to be. :confuse:
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    jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    Part of buying into luxury is the dealership experience and to some extent the sales staff. Perception, tradition and status play a large part in the decision for some folks. The auto mag reviews look at the class in objective terms which gives little cred to the badge. From that standpoint, Hyundai is competitive. The luxury car buyer usually has a different bias. Many don't want to be associated with people shopping for cars with few features and mouse fur seats. My Hyundai dealer is a few blocks from the BMW store. I've spent time in both and they are way different. It just depends on whether people can adjust their priorities. I'm not trashing Hyundai -- they have great cars but the sales atmosphere is very different.
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    jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    If you want to continue to ding Hyundai just because they can deliver a car in that class for much less money, go right ahead.

    My only reason for dinging Hyundai is its inexplicable failure to offer optional AWD in the Genesis from the get-go. I live in a very import-friendly metro NY suburb, & I've seen a grand total of 2 examples of the Genesis since it was introduced in August, 2008. (Or perhaps I've seen the same car twice. Who knows?)

    Perhaps this car has been a runaway hit in the South, but in the Snowbelt states it's nothing more than a footnote on the sales chart.

    If Hyundai had been smart enough to use the Infiniti M as a template or target when it developed the Genesis, AWD would have part of the option mix from Day One. As it is, a Hyundai salesman actually told me that when people tell him that they like the Genesis but want to check out the Infiniti before pulling the trigger, he knows that he's lost the sale.

    Can anyone say or guess just when we'll see an AWD Infiniti in the States?
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, I guess there is no requirement for fairness in Town Hall. :P

    Also no props for putting out a product that even you admit is a good one, at a lower price than competitors. You are probably happy that Hyundai raised the prices on the Genesis for 2010. You'd probably be happier still if they raised it another $5-10k or so, so it would be in line with competitors. Oh wait... then you would complain that no one will pay that much for a Hyundai, and compare it to the Phaeton. But I forget... fairness is not part of it.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You don't suppose that maybe Hyundai didn't offer AWD in the first-generation Genesis because... they do have limits? I mean, it was an all-new car, an all-new V8 engine, and their first entry into the luxury market, meaning large marketing costs. So is this really an "inexplicable failure", or just one of the compromises made in bringing a Version 1.0 product to market, while ensuring it has high quality and reliability from day one (considering AWD adds complexity, and cost)?

    If the M is so great because of its AWD... why did the Genesis outsell it for much of the past 18 months?
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    smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I'm sorry backy, while the Genesis is a nice car it is not in the same class as the M, especially the new one, it just isn't. It might not be the right thing, but that is just the way it is. You can show me all the automotive professionals and blogs that say it is, and have plenty of professionals and blogs that will contradict it so there. Its opinion, just like what is luxury and what is not.

    Listen, I've been a strong defendent of Hyundai on here but you do get to be a little bit ridiculous about the Genesis and Hyundai in general. They make some great products now, but you act sometimes as if the Genesis is God's gift to man and it just isn't the case for a lot of people. No car is. They are only cars for God sakes. There is more to life then cars! Every car has its pros and cons with the Genesis having some of each, just like everyone else. Its a fine luxury product There are plenty of cars I would buy before I would be in a Genesis and there are plenty of cars I would take a Genesis over everyday.

    Thats just is the way it is. I'm not trying to knock Hyundai but they just recently, in the last few years made their way into the market scheme of being a reputable/quality car maker on part with everyone else and luxury status just doesn't happen over night. Infiniti and Acura have been hear a lot longer than your precious Hyundai and they are still fighting for prestige. Hyundai's day will come but they have to get in line behind everyone else!

    By the way, in various market data and sales figures I see each month, the MAJORITY, when showing luxury sedan numbers from each manufacturer, do not list the Genesis in the luxury sedan category of the M, 5, E, A6, GS, and RL. This by no means that the Genesis is not a great car, or its not a better value and better bang for your buck but it just came on the scene and still a relatively new model and you just don't snap your fingers after that little bit of time and make it the best luxury vehicle on the market passing the brand prestige and history that those other luxury sedans have worked hard to establish in this country.

    You know what I see the monthly sales figures for the Genesis slotted up against by blogs, magazines, and auto professionals is the ES, G37, TL, Maxima, Avalon, Taurus, and LaCrosse.
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    smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    For the last freakin time, it can outsell the M because IT COSTS A HELL OF A LOT LESS THAN A M, GS, RL, A6, 5, and E! There are more people who can afford a $33-42k dollar Genesis, then a $48-65k dollar M, etc. Its just simple economics, especially in a recession when many more people who could have afforded a M, GS, 5 or E class, are on a budget now and cannot!
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    jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    So is this really an "inexplicable failure", or just one of the compromises made in bringing a Version 1.0 product to market, while ensuring it has high quality and reliability from day one (considering AWD adds complexity, and cost)?

    Good point.

    If the M is so great because of its AWD... why did the Genesis outsell it for much of the past 18 months?

    I'll bet that a regional breakdown of sales numbers for this period would show you that the M, although in the 6th year of its styling cycle, outsold the Genesis in Snowbelt markets.

    As it is, the Genesis seems to me to be largely a Sunbelt success story. I did see a bunch of them during a long weekend in the Palm Beach area in March, 2009 - more than I've seen up here since then.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited May 2010
    It might not be the right thing...

    Agreed.

    ...you do get to be a little bit ridiculous about the Genesis and Hyundai in general.

    Funny how when someone uses facts and logic to state a point of view, it's "ridiculous". Or when someone has a different opinion than you do, it's "ridiculous." What I think is ridiculous is someone who puts so much store in Acura thinking it's ridiculous to consider the Genesis, especially the 4.6, a luxury car.

    Its a fine luxury product

    Oh, wait.... you DO think the Genesis is a luxury car. I wasn't sure for a minute just what your opinion on that is.

    There are plenty of cars I would buy before I would be in a Genesis and there are plenty of cars I would take a Genesis over everyday.

    That is true for me as well. It doesn't mean I can't see the Genesis for what it is, without putting on a "It can't be a luxury car, it's from a Korean company not known for luxury cars" filter.

    Hyundai's day will come but they have to get in line behind everyone else!

    Why? Would it be unfair somehow if Hyundai accomplished in just a few years what it took your "precious" Acura 25 years of trying to achieve... and they're still trying?

    ...you just don't snap your fingers after that little bit of time and make it the best luxury vehicle on the market passing the brand prestige and history that those other luxury sedans have worked hard to establish in this country.

    Where did anyone, including me, say the Genesis is the best luxury vehicle in the market? This discussion is about Hyundai having some "room" in the luxury market... not whether they dominate it. Which of course they don't, and won't for a very long time if ever. But this is not about having the biggest house on the block... it's about being in the neighborhood, even if it's in a condo.
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    smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Its an entry level luxury sedan, just like the TL, G37, A4, 3-series, C-class, etc but not a full luxury sedan like the GS, M, RL, A6, 5, and E are. The Equus would fall into that vehilce classification of a luxury sedan. Now if the Equus when it gets here sells better than the M, then you'll really have something to pout your chest out about!! Cross your fingers that it does well for Hyundai!!

    Maybe ridiculous was not the right word to use and I apologize but I mean you do seem to like Hyundai, and I can see why you do, they offer great value and bang for your buck in regards to quality/reliability/features, and emphatically support them when MB, BMW, and Lexus people come on and trash the Genesis and Hyundai as a brand. I mean if I or any one else mentions something from Nissan, Ford, Toyota, Acura, Infiniti, Audi, etc etc it just seems like you don't find anything from anyone else that appeals to you, except Hyundai.

    I just get the impression that Hyundai is the only vehicles you would consider at this point and nothing else could not match up to almighty Hyundai. Maybe, I'm wrong, who knows, its been a long day :sick: I get confused easily anymore :P !

    Actually, I understand where you coming from about defending Hyundai. I have to do the same thing with Acura, though they are making it extremely difficult to do with their current butt ugly styling :sick:
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I mean if I or any one else mentions something from Nissan, Ford, Toyota, Acura, Infiniti, Audi, etc etc it just seems like you don't find anything from anyone else that appeals to you, except Hyundai.

    I just get the impression that Hyundai is the only vehicles you would consider at this point and nothing else could not match up to almighty Hyundai. Maybe, I'm wrong, who knows,...

    Yes, you're wrong. Look at my profile. Look at all the cars from all the brands I've owned. I just leased a new car. Guess what? It wasn't a Hyundai, but a Nissan. I also own a Mazda. Yes, I own two Hyundais right now, and I like them a lot. But when I bought those I looked at several other brands too; the Hyundais just happened to float to the top when it came to writing the checks.

    I think there is a fairly common misconception here, promoted by those who call anyone who makes positive comments about Hyundai a "fanboy" :P , that those who see good things about Hyundai and its chances in the luxury market don't or can't like anything else. Why that perception is there, I don't know. It IS possible for someone who keeps close watch on the automotive market to appreciate multiple cars, and brands. This image some have in their minds that anyone who has a positive thought about Hyundai and its luxury offerings is a raving, foaming-at-the-mouth fanboy really has got to go.
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    smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    edited May 2010
    Well then I must apologize about my assumptions of you. I'm a big enough persona to admit when I made a mistake. I'm no fanboy of any automaker because I've seen first hand with GM and now with various Japanese automakers that brand loyalty means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, because no matter how long you are with a company, when you go back in to buy or lease, your just a another piece of crap off the street to these salesman and they'll try to hose you at every opportunity. I've seen it time and time again. Consistently, I've gotten worse treatment and prices from the dealerships I've bought or leased from before or currently, then other dealers I got prices from that I haven't done business with ever before. Its just incredible to watch every time I car shop!

    Like you, I cross shop brands when shopping and I'll go where ever I'm treated the best and like the product as well. If that means going to another manufacturer I have no problem with that. Personally for me, I've become interested in Hyundai and really like the new Sonata. I don't know if I'll get one because by that time a redesigned Camry and Altima will be out and the market offerings might change, but I'm definitely going to cross shop the Sonata.

    Personally, right now I have a Nissan, Infiniti, and Acura. But I've also had Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, Cadillac and Mercedes. So I've had a little bit of everything pretty much.

    Right now, Ford, Hyundai, and Audi are peaking my interest the most but the car market is ever changing with new products, update redesigns, etc so choices can change very drastically.
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    wolverinejoe80wolverinejoe80 Member Posts: 337
    M is a a huge flop if you ask me. M37 review by edmunds was brutal. i don't remember any positive reviews. and it's hard to notice it on the road because it's basically 25% bigger G. M is trying little too hard to be a sports sedan, and the bulbous design didn't help. it won't flop like RL, but i expect it will flop like GS. it will be overwhelmed by Germans. I honestly think Equus is much better than M from what i've heard and read in Korea. it looks better too. Genesis will hold its own against M easily too. just by looking at it Genesis looks more substantial and less pretentious.

    and 'Genesis selling more because it's cheaper' is only 50% right. Genesis sells more because it's cheaper, but it doesn't sell as much as it supposed to be because it's an expensive non-luxury brand car. I'm certain Genesis would've sold a lot more than M if it was wearing an Acura RL badge and priced at 50k. even better, if Genesis was an Infiniti M, Infiniti would've had much easier time selling Genesis than their own M which IMO is the biggest mistake Infiniti ever made in my recent memory.

    from my general observation, Genesis buyers are smart and confident buyers who doesn't need to spend 20k more for the badge. They just want the luxury car with a tremendous value. they think buying a similarly priced FWD is a step down. 3 and A4's are too small for them, and unreliable Germans aren't smart way to invest their money. and surprisingly many Genesis owners I know can afford E or 5 series, but they just chose not to buy it. only other alternatives are Lexus GS, but then Genesis is significantly cheaper.
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Part of buying into luxury is the dealership experience and to some extent the sales staff. Perception, tradition and status play a large part in the decision for some folks.
    Agreed, and for some the whole thing about luxury perceptions and the luxury experience means nothing. The luxury car is reduced to an arbitrary set of specifications and a certain amount of bling. I'll tell you it is very definitely a combination of all those things and because Hyundai has that pedestrian reputation, pedestrian mainstream product line, and those pedestrian dealers that there can't be any room for a luxury' car with a Hyundai badge on it.
    And NOT that this is any real 'slam' at Hyundai - the same thing applies to many many other volume mainstream mfgrs I can think of!
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    You'd probably be happier still if they raised it another $5-10k or so, so it would be in line with competitors
    No, I wouldn't but I think Hyundai would - if they could. Take it from me, though, there is nothing terribly altruistic about the Koreans, they worship the dollar likely more than both of us. You seem to want to reduce Hyundai perception problems to one thing - like a low price - when I'll tell you it is much more than a low price that effects Hyundai's lux aspirations.
    Logically, raising the price that much would push the Gen Sedan out of the upscale niche that it is currently competing in and into one that it wouldn't do nearly as well.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You seem to want to reduce Hyundai perception problems to one thing - like a low price - when I'll tell you it is much more than a low price that effects Hyundai's lux aspirations.

    No, you are wrong about my take on Hyundai's public perception. I know that some people can't get past the Excel from over 20 years ago. And some people still remember who attacked Pearl Harbor, and who had death camps in Europe during WW II. No way that can be changed, until those people find some way to get past the past, or die.

    So what you seem to be saying is that Hyundai is in a no-win situation: you don't think they are successful selling the Genesis at its current price (despite evidence to the contrary e.g. sales and uplift in perception of the Hyundai brand due to the Genesis), and they can't be successful if they raise the price. I'll bet you wish they'd just pack up and go home, and not be a bother to the established luxury brands, eh? They've got their gall, coming into the US with their cars that match others costing many thousand more, don't they? :P
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    So what you seem to be saying is that Hyundai is in a no-win situation
    NOT NECESSARILY, all Hyundai would seem to be needing at this point is to continue improving its products as well as its reputation so that then they can turun around and create that 'luxury' brand that they need to have if they ever are going to compete successfully in this particular market. It's not like they don't have any blueprints to follow.
    I'll bet you wish they'd just pack up and go home,
    You can make all the accusations that might make you feel better, but the fact is, I am NOT anti-Hyundai - quite the opposite actually.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited May 2010
    Now you are saying that Hyundai needs to continue to improve their products and reputation in order to be able to create a "luxury" brand. But you have said many times that Hyundai should have sold the Genesis sedan with a luxury brand from the outset--meaning starting two years ago. Which is it? Was Hyundai up to creating a luxury brand two years ago, or will they only be capable of doing it some time in the future? :confuse:

    As for "blueprints".. should they follow the Acura blueprint, which has resulted in (arguably) only one luxury car, the RL, and several mainstream and upscale cars? Or the Infiniti model, which again has resulted in only one luxury car, the M, and with disappointing sales success to boot? Or the Lexus model, which has been a sales success for a couple of models but not across the board, and has seen a drop in quality during its lifetime? (And btw, has seen Hyundai overtake it in terms of brand value, based on the BusinessWeek/Interbrand study.) Or, which blueprint should Hyundai follow? Or just maybe... they should innovate, as they have done successfully in the past 10 years, and try a different model, not the same-old models used by others, with mixed success?
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    smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Very good points! You definitely can't go wrong getting a Genesis. If you like how the car looks, how it drives, the features it comes with then I say all power to you. Your definitely getting a good bang for your buck vehicle!
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    captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Now you are saying that Hyundai needs to continue to improve their products and reputation in order to be able to create a "luxury" brand
    as I have said before - what made Acura and Lexus such an easy sell was the fact that both Honda and Toyota had spotless quality reputations at the time. The Legend (a wonderful car FYI) succeeded in part because it was made by Honda the LS Toyota etc.
    While Hyundai may be improving by leaps and bounds I believe that contentions that Hyundai has even approached that level of reputation TODAY is delusional.
    Whether a Genesis 'branded' product can succeed in the luxury arena will have a lot to do with how far Hyundai can distance Genesis from Hyundai OR if it can (thru product improvement) get it to the point that that relationship is perceived as an asset - not a liability
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    edited May 2010
    Truth be told, I think the way Americans value our wives is partly responsible for the floaty riding cars. Men will sacrifice a little comfort for handling, most women couldn't care less. They just want a quiet, comfortable car. If I ever buy a Lexus, it will be the Wife's car. I will always be stuck with my Tacoma. :sick:
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Hyundai can distance Genesis from Hyundai OR if it can (thru product improvement) get it to the point that that relationship is perceived as an asset - not a liability

    There may be a dated perception that the Hyundai name is a negative, but the reality is, it's not. Perception always lags reality. A great car can change to a bucket of bolts over a couple of model years, and they still sell because of lagging perception. I guess you can call people delusional and get away with it. I think mis perceptions are a form of delusion, in a general way.
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So let me see if I have this straight: you seem to be saying that Hyundai needs to improve its reputation, maybe to a "spotless" level, before it can successfully launch a luxury brand. And you have asserted many times here that Hyundai should have sold the Genesis sedan not under the Hyundai brand, but under a separate, "luxury" brand name, correct?

    So what you are saying is that Hyundai made a huge mistake in launching the Genesis sedan in the US back in 2008, and that it should not sell cars like the Genesis or Equus in the US until it has that golden reputation, at a level you are satisfied with, to launch a luxury brand. Right?

    I don't think the 30,000 or so people who have bought a Genesis sedan to date would agree with you on that. Nor would the professional automotive experts who have noted how the Genesis has uplifted the entire Hyundai brand--which of course was precisely the intent of Hyundai's strategy to sell the Genesis under the Hyundai name.

    I find it hard to understand why you don't see why Hyundai followed the strategy it did with the Genesis, and soon the Equus. You constantly talk about how Hyundai needs to improve its brand image, yet you complain when they do that successfully by selling the Genesis as a Hyundai.
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    jayriderjayrider Member Posts: 3,602
    edited May 2010
    Hyundai doesn't need to change the car -- from all reports the Gen meets or exceeds the luxury brands in most areas. The problem is the dealership experience and past perceptions. You won't change the perceptions unless you change the environment and the personnel where they are sold.
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    They make some great products now, but you act sometimes as if the Genesis is God's gift to man

    Backy can certainly speak for himself, but I just wanted to say some of what he says is to refute utterly groundless and ridiculous statements against Hyundai. In other words, he is not saying Hyundai is ever so great, he is just saying it isn't nearly as bad as a few Hyundai haters are saying. I go a little overboard myself to balance what I perceive as unfair statements. Backy (and me) own other brands besides Hyundai, and will both consider other brands when we buy our next car. That speaks for itself.

    I hope you have noticed the vicious and groundless anti-Hyundai bias by a few here. If you don't, I don't know what to tell you.
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    smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I have notice it and I see where backy is coming from. I have apoologized already to him for my incorrect assumptions!

    If you had told me 5 years ago that I would be interested in Hyundai and cross-shopped their products with the Japanese and American offerings I would have laughed in your face! What a difference 5 short years can make! :)
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    bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I have notice it and I see where backy is coming from. I have apoologized already to him for my incorrect assumptions!


    Sorry, I should have read to the end of the thread before jumping in there. :blush:

    Hyundai reminds me of a girl in 4th grade whom I used to accuse of having "cooties", and tease relentlessly.

    Guess what, in a short 5 years, she did a complete metamorphosis, and so did my perception of her! Now I guess there may be 2 or 3 guys in school that would still look down at her and say "cooties" because her dad works at the local sawmill, but that's just their perception, not reality. No matter how great you are, or how hard you try in life, you can't choose your parents, can you?
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    backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Personally I don't have any problem with my local Hyundai dealer. Their service is fast and professional, their salespeople are easy to do business with (at least those I've worked with), and they offer perks like free rides from/to the dealership when a car is in for service, free washes, free PC/Internet usage, and even free oil changes. Is the building luxurious? No. It's a former Toyota dealership, fairly old, and nothing to write home about. Can I get cappuccino in the waiting area? No. (Just regular coffee/tea/hot cocoa.) But I can do without those things. Maybe some folks can't. Also I know dealerships vary a lot, so I have no doubt there's poor Hyundai dealers. From what I've read, Hyundai plans to use the Equus to uplift the level of service at dealerships, at least for folks who buy an Equus. Maybe some of that will rub off on the overall dealership experience.

    I said when the Genesis launched that Hyundai should reserve the right to sell it only to dealerships who met certain, high standards for customer service/satisfaction--give the dealers who were below-par an incentive to improve, and reward the really good dealerships. Hyundai didn't do that of course, so I guess that proves I have no special connection to Hyundai. ;)
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    acdiiacdii Member Posts: 753
    There may be a dated perception that the Hyundai name is a negative, but the reality is, it's not. Perception always lags reality. A great car can change to a bucket of bolts over a couple of model years, and they still sell because of lagging perception.

    Toyota comes to mind with the Camry. I perceived it as a high quality car, only to be let down by its cheap parts and poor fit and finish. I was greatly surprised when I looked at the Hyundais after having worked on them so many years ago when they were known as throw away cheap cars.
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