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http://investorjunkie.com/our-2010-hyundai-genesis-purchase
I remembered an old TV ad comparing a Hyundai sedan and a Lambo and saying that Hyundai was much cheaper and had more room. What kind of joke was it?!
Most people buying luxury vehicles will not even look at Hyundai. It's all about the image. For those people, buying a Genesis will make other people think that they cannot afford to buy MB, BMW, Audi, Lexus, etc. Guess can never be Gucci. American Eagle can never be Armani (well, they are American Brands against Italian Brands).
To be fair and appreciate the effort of Hyundai, I agree they did a good job on Genesis but they really need a different division, just like Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura. There are too many affordable vehicles under that brand.
Just as there are misconceptions about Hyundai, there are also misconceptions about Lexus. I have owned several Lexus' over the years and the only model that has a floaty ride and little road feel is the ES.
The LS has a rather taut ride and good road feel. No, you would never mistake it for a sports car but it is not intended to be a sports car. It rides and drives much like an S class Mercedes, but it is much quieter and more refined feeling.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Excellent blog, thanks for the link!
A few comments reminded me of comments I have read on this thread, and I believe reflect the attitude of many savvy car buyers these days.
"With either car, we didn’t care about the luxury brand status."
"We weren’t buying the car for the “snob” appeal and cared less what others thought of the car."
"We cared more about the reliability, safety and features of the car, than if we can get a freshly brewed cup of coffee at their service center. When purchasing a car, the goal should be visiting the dealership at little as possible, not becoming best buddies with the service rep. This seems to be the deal when buying a Mercedes Benz."
I don't believe the blogger is a Hyundai fanboy. Even if his experience with the Genesis is perfect, I believe he is too smart to ever become a fanboy.
In the car industry, momentum is elusive, even hard to define, yet crucial. It's the convergence of several things,,, the product line, quality, styling, pricing, advertising, and even that old devil public acceptance. I can feel Hyundai's momentum building with each new release since 05. That's good news in every way for all car buyers, and we should all welcome it.
I'll be in the market for a new car in ~3 years. I don't know if it will be a Hyundai or not, but I bet it will be influenced by Hyundai many ways.
I am glad Hyundai kept the slanted H on the trunk and here's why. They created, designed, built, insured their plants and people who built the car, stood behind it with the best Warranty in the business and lastly, it's a car they should be proud of building. Of course the slanted H should be on the car anywhere they want to put it.
Until the dorks who put Hyundai down come up with a better car they should just shut the hell up unless they can build a perfect beast.
Like ta see 'em try. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
The real test of Hyundai's brand strategy will be the Equus. If they can sell a $50-60k car under the Hyundai label, it will put to rest the fading memories of the Excel. If not... that will lend credence to the theory that Hyundai has pushed too far, too fast. We'll know later this year.
Hyundai is doing all of us a favor, because the price of good cars is being held down by their presence. As for the the German marques, there is no doubt that they still give a more "religious" or spiritually fulfilling drive...but they tend to give back all that Karma when they start having expensive breakdowns just as the warranty runs out.
There is no point in criticizing the shopping decisions of Americans. People will vote with their feet, and they voted NOT to buy the Phaeton, though I think it was a good car that in 2004 had so many problems off the bat that they were essentially dead in the water. The lack of a marquee name did matter too, of course. But I really believe that VW wanted to present the greatest car in the world, and had the misfortune of being too ambitious with their first attempt.
Someone has commented on the northern sales of Genesis lost because of the lack of all wheel drive, and I suppose that is true. But I am pretty sure they will get around to it. The Phaeton tried to have everything, but the emotional cost of going through the growing pains was too great. Meaning Hyundai is making sure that Asian reliability is still an accepted benefit of their vehicles.
And, let's face it, some people want a reliable car more than they want the spiritual experience. I sold a used Phaeton because I lost patience with the rate of repair work. Hyundai is trying to walk the line between both worlds with the Genesis. Personally, I don't think they have their suspension quite up to snuff, yet, and it might prevent me from buying the next one, but I am still impressed by the value, and the gas mileage (20 mpg city, and 27 mpg highway (at 80 mph cruise control). Hyundai has done most things with this car very, very well.
Yeah, they will have to pay dues, but the dues are in sweat, not in time. I don't think they are likely to quit before getting it right. I suspect my next vehicle (though I live in the South) will be an all wheel drive Hyundai, because the weight issues of all wheel drive are being somewhat compensated for by the elimination of friction losses in the non-driven tires.
I may end up getting a Subaru. Now that's a brand that I think should come up with a luxury branded car. I am almost surprised they haven't. I think all wheel drive safety features are going to become more clear in the future, and even in warmer weather.
For now, my Hyundai is growing on me, and so I remain a staunch believer that they will cut into the Japanese Luxury Market. And if they can match the compliance/cornering balance of the BMW....
Oh, someone earlier in the thread ridiculed the shape of the new Infiniti M series, and I admit that startled me. I think the new M's look Aston Martin beautiful, and I suspect their sales will increase markedly, cutting into 5 series sales very soon, if the driving experience is even close to that of the new 5 series (which incidentally continues to have a ridiculously small back seat). Frankly, I can't buy the 3 and 5 series BMW's because there interior space is impractical, and their interior styling decidedly retro, but not retro enough to be cool retro, rather lame retro.
you are right about Lexus hiting the ground running and the fact that there was little resistance to the NEW luxury brand BUT a few things to remember:
1. The LS was THAT good relative to what the Germans were doing at the time
2. Toyota had such a good name at the time - that the fact that Toyota was making the thing was an ASSET to the new marque
3. they did establish a new brand to at least partially take care of the carbuyer's often absurd brand consciousness.
and lastly
4. those new Lexus dealerships established a new standard for what a 'luxury' dealer should be - in fact reinforcing the Lexus luxury image.
'Paying their dues' is an interesting comment - but in the case of the Gen, Hyundai has really only addressed 1 of these 4 things that Lexus (and Acura) both did so well 20 years ago.
Agree with you on Subaru incidentally - a brand with a solid enough rep that they could ride those favorable brand perceptions through the creation of a 'luxury' brand - one that would perhaps play off the all weather' cpapbilities of most of Subaru's products.
Plus they've increased production quite a bit in Indiana to keep up with demand and may not have the capacity to scale up to another platform without risking a lot. Maybe they could clone a Lexus though, since Toyota owns a good piece of them (16% iirc).
One of the troubling things with Acura, and Honda to, is there lack of a strong/consistent long-term goal/plan direction they want to take the company. One minute they say they want to compete with Lexus, BMW, MB, and Audi then say they don't, then say they want to focus on smart luxury, then they don't then they go back, and they just consistently remain wishywashy. Both companies have begun to be stagnate in the market in regards to style, luxury features, sport performance, sales etc! They both became to complacent in the fact that people bought their products, because they were a Honda or a Acura, and that meant everything in regards to reliability, quality, etc. If you notice the latest stent that happen with Toyota, Honda did not benefit that heavily from their problems. If you notice, Hyundai, Ford, Nissan, and GM to a lesser extent were the biggest beneficiaries of their problems.
Problem is, they no longer can simply rely on their reliability/quality reputation to keep up with sales because now, companies like Hyundai, Ford, and Nissan are really rivaling them in quality, reliability, technological innovation (ie CVT or fuel efficient tubro 4 cyls as examples) and feature content in the bang for the buck category. Its unfortunate. Personally for me, I think my 3G TL was a closer, better competitor to the BMW 3, G35, C, and A4 at the time then the new 4G TL is. Just to clarify, I'm just saying the 3G TL was a nice competitor in style, size, feature content, etc but it was by no means better at sport performance and handling than a 3-Series or G35 at that time!
I mean Acura still makes very high quality/ fit & finish products, great reliability, some of the best technology, namely their nav systems, but they no longer are the best bang for the buck and their is no sign of technological/mechanical innovation, GOOD styling changes, and performance offerings that their main competitors are offering. If Acura and Honda don't get their act together they will be left in the dust. It such a shame, because I do like Acura at heart, I wouldn't have had two vehicles from them if I didn't think so, but I've been turned off with their current exterior styling and probably will be shopping else where the next time around!
you had better do some googling on Acura - because the RL had absolutely nothing to do with Acura's success 25 or so years ago - it was really the Legend which in the mid 30ksat the time a proper attempt at a 'luxury' sedan at the time. Had Acura continued with the spirit of what the Legend was, I don't believe that they have the same second tier luxury recognition that they do today. And yes the Acura brand has lost its way over the years with too much emphasis on misc 'entry level' vehicles IMO. Therefore not a model for Hyundai to follow...
Lexus is probably the best model to follow, with the products Hyundai already has -BUT sold at proper lux dealers with other suitably upmarket products. And don't put too much weight on RL sales numbers, it competes in a different arena than the Gen sedan.
Absolutely.
I wonder how they sell any at all.
I had an 1988 legend two door coupe, and when I see an old one now, I still think it looks so much better than their current "astroboy" designs.
yet another example of what a mainstream brand CANNOT do perhaps - Subaru undeniably a mainstream brand - the car of choice in the mountain states. The Tribeca a bit pricey, perhaps too much so for a mainstream brand.
I think this is one of the reasons that we have seen Toyota's and Honda's quality go down in the last few years. They are being decontented, subpar materials are being used, etc. etc. You start a luxury brand and you are competing with yourself. You have placed a ceiling on what you can do with the lower level.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Since the Equus will compete directly, price-wise, with the RL, I'll keep in mind what you just said about less than 150 sales a month being something to not put much weight on.
an interesting theory - I always thought Toyota though had done a reasonable job upgrading materials as well as fit/finish for their Lexus branded products - I mean an ES350 may be a mechanical twin of a Camry XLE, but go look and them closely and there is something you get for the extra money - other than a name. Don't believe that the ES really competes with the Camry, even if it should. Such is the power of the Lexus name.
Don't believe that the Lexus only LS has been decontented or even cheapened , although it has gone up in price substantially. The D3, however, have made 'competing with themselves' and artform over the years - think of all the Cadillac and Lincoln rebadges, and FTM all the Chevy std. switchgear you can have on a $100k Vette - for no extra charge.
Hyundai, if it does decide to try establishing that luxury brand though will have to avoid that temptation to rebadge 'standard' Hyundai products, just for the sake of some sales $. Anything that effectively hurts the exclusivety of (and lends some commonality to) a product, will also damage any luxury pretensions of that product and the 'Genesis' brand. The Germans have generally kept things on a higher plane over the years , although the BMW 1s and MB Cs have got to have you wondering. :confuse:
you have this tendency to want to compare things (like GS sales or RL) only when you think those comparisons somehow support your position. I mean if you want to compare Gen sales with something then compare them to the sales of other upscale sedans and if you are going to want to compare Equus sales to something that it more obviously targeted at - try evaluating it in relation to the LS/7/S sales that Hyundai thinks it will be an 'equal' to.
Talk about making comparisons only that support your position! :P
Guess you didn't want to google anything - you only show that you really don't know how good Acura products were when the brand was established. The RL came 10 years after the original Legend and a lot less of a car - to wit:
takes confidence to name a car the Legend. If it had been forgettable with nothing legendary about it, Acura could have found itself derided for the irony. It would have forever become the butt of automotive jokes, or worse, part of an Alanis Morissette song. Luckily for Honda's luxury division, its bravado paid off with the Acura Legend, a car that's still held in high regard years after it bowed out in favor of an ironically forgettable replacement.
The Acura Legend was launched in 1986 alongside the Integra sport hatchback to create the Acura brand in North America. Actually co-developed with British automaker Rover (which named its version of the car the Sterling 825), the Legend -- available in sedan and coupe body styles -- was immediately a hit among consumers and reviewers alike.
a review/article, incidentally, from Edmunds.com
remembering of course that those shiny new Acura dealers were wonderful and only to be bested by those Lexus (and Infiniti) dealers a few years later.
The Legend (and Integra to a lesser degree) both had a lot to do with Acura's early success and did establish a 'luxury' brand. What they have done with it (2nd tier lux brand IMO) since the Legend (with the RL etc) is not the point . Honda in effect showed Toyota/ Lexus how to do it. If Hyundai really thinks that somebody is going to pay $50 or $60k for a Hyundai branded product, I think that they should be reading their history books.
The Acura Legend, sold as the Honda Legend outside the U.S., Canada, and parts of China, was a sporty luxury vehicle sold from 1986 to 1995 as both a sedan and coupe. It was one of the first vehicles sold under the Acura nameplate, and was the flagship sedan under the Acura nameplate until being replaced in 1996 by the Acura RL (officially badged as the Acura 3.5RL). The 3.5RL was a rebadged version of the third generation Honda Legend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acura_Legend
But I like your thought about how the Civic-based Integra helped Acura establish itself as a luxury brand:
The Legend (and Integra to a lesser degree) both had a lot to do with Acura's early success and did establish a 'luxury' brand.
If that was OK for Acura, I am sure you'll agree it's OK for Hyundai to use economy cars to help establish itself in the luxury market.
As for Acura showing Lexus and Infiniti the way... I guess if Hyundai isn't concerned about longevity in the luxury market, they could follow Acura's lead. Or Infiniti's. Infiniti also hasn't done really well in the luxury market--like Acura, only one luxury car, the M, to show for all their money and effort over the years. And the M hasn't been much of a sales success, has it? No, not a great model to follow either. Maybe Lexus--rebadge the Sonata as a Lexus, as Lexus did with the Camry to form the first ES, spruce it up some, and use it to help establish itself in the luxury market--kinda like Acura did with the old Integra. What do you think of that idea? You should like it, since you liked it for the J3.
Subaru is more mainstream than they were when I saw my first one in the early 70's in Evergreen, Colorado. Very narrow, but the owner loved it's ability in the snow. But Subaru can't really afford to invest too much in a luxury ride I don't think. Too much risk if it bombs.
Subaru's owner, Fuji Industries has 4 main divisions and 15,000 employees.
Hyundai Motor has 75,000 employees. Hyundai Motor is just a division of Hyundai Kia Automotive Group.
The revenue streams are a bit different.
This is one of the most common complaints I hear, and one of the main reasons people jump brands. I can't fathom it, it's beyond my understanding why any car manufacturer would reduce the quality of materials in their cars. Staying the same is OK, charging slightly more is OK. Putting pressure on suppliers to reduce their prices over the long term is the best solution. Reducing materials quality is a sure way to turn off customers and make them look elsewhere. Nothing puts off a customer more than sitting in a new car and noticing it's not as nice as previous models.
I agree, so perhaps I wasn't clear. The Lexus division is fine...it is the Toyota's, especially the Camry, that has gone downhill, IMO.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I thought it particularly interesting that the final 2 choices came down to the Avalon and Genesis (a comparison not inrequently made here), and, a 2010 Genesis at that (with a revised suspension).
It is definitely Toyota specifically who has gone downhill with material quality/ fit & finish! I saw this specifically with the Camry and RAV-4 I test drove last year! Both models are due for major redesigns so will see if Toyota got the message or not!
You have stated this thought repeatedly in making the point that the situation with Hyundai and the Genesis/Equus today is different from that of Toyota and the LS then, and thus Hyundai ought to have achieved a practically flawless reputation before launching the Genesis/Equus.
I have read at least one professional review of the Genesis, in which yet another expected reference to Toyota and its LS was made. However, the review stated clearly that Lexus helped a less than perfect, still-looked-down perception of Toyota; that the LS helped change people's minds about Toyota products.
Can you demonstrate that Toyota had "such a good name at the time"?
the success of of both Lexus and Acura demonstrates it, because neither of them would have made it without the correspondent association with their mfgrs. - and additionally the slower ascent of Infiniti also testifies to the fact that Nissan's rep at the time was on a somewhat lower level and also shows how good that rep must be to succeed in the rapid manner that Toyota and Honda did..
yeah, it did - and a 'proper' lux car entry in its time. What it didn't do in its last rendition is keep up with the fad to RWD, a continuing mistake on Acura's part IMO. It's success, those beautiful Acura dealers, and the whole way the transaction process was handled did establish a benchmark for many others to follow - including Lexus.
can you say Lincoln? Does anybody out there really know which one is the Fusion clone, which one the Taurus etc. etc.? Limits product differentiation AFAIAC
Actually would suggest that Genesis is a great name, but do believe that eventually they'll have to come with something different than simply Sedan and Coupe for the individual Genesis branded models . Kinda like Genesis Equus although I'm still not sure about Equus - or how to pronounce it :confuse:
I wish more could follow that model, including Hyundai, but I do give Hyundai credit, that unlike many other manufacturers, GM, Nissan, and Lexus come to mind off the bat, their option packages are not too complex and pricy and relatively easy to choose among!
RDX is a CRV
MDX is a Pilot
TL an Accord
TSX, a European Accord
Infiniti does it (entire lineup of rear drive with optional AWD) that are not based on their Nissan USA vehicles, except QX56 which changes for 2011, why not Acura?
certainly better than the 'rebadging' they are intent on doing now - Infiniti in my mind didn't really get in the lux picture until the 2nd generation M followed the G circa 05, they had the dealers and FTM what was a generally accepted lux name, but nothing much else other thsan rebadged Nissans to that point. In that way much like Acura.
Hyundai OTH has the unique product that might otherwise qualify - if it only had the dealers and the lux name.
What do you consider the Q-ship? An economy car? :surprise:
As far as Hyundai moving into the luxury market. In my opinion having just brought a Genesis, I think they have a great product especially considering the price but they must upgrade their dealers which just don't provide buyer environment when compared to Benz, Lexus, et-al
Overall, though it is not that way anymore. As I said, since about 2006-2007, all 3 have improved dramatically in overall reliability, especially in their big selling models. I mean the new GLK got a practically perfect score after its first year and has much better than avg reliability already!
and before that it was Renault, Carlo Franco and a few billion French francs!
Low sales are attributed not to the car’s overall quality or performance, but to lack of advertising and the debatable prestige of the Infiniti name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infiniti_Q45
So Acura started well, with the Legend, then collapsed to irrelevance in the luxury car market. Infiniti didn't compete strongly in the luxury car market until the M debuted a few years ago. Not good models for Hyundai to follow, IMO.