Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

dean3927 · May 2010

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http://investorjunkie.com/our-2010-hyundai-genesis-purchase

r34 · May 2010

I think most reviews said a Genesis has better value than some luxury cars. Is it really a luxury vehicle? I don't know. Whenever people talk about Hyundai, some people will think about value but some people will think about cheap car and cheap people (sorry to say that). I don't think most people will associate Hyundai with luxury. See how hard Buick/Cad tried to change the image?

I remembered an old TV ad comparing a Hyundai sedan and a Lambo and saying that Hyundai was much cheaper and had more room. What kind of joke was it?!

Most people buying luxury vehicles will not even look at Hyundai. It's all about the image. For those people, buying a Genesis will make other people think that they cannot afford to buy MB, BMW, Audi, Lexus, etc. Guess can never be Gucci. American Eagle can never be Armani (well, they are American Brands against Italian Brands).

To be fair and appreciate the effort of Hyundai, I agree they did a good job on Genesis but they really need a different division, just like Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura. There are too many affordable vehicles under that brand.

houdini1 · May 2010

If I ever buy a Lexus, it will be the Wife's car.

Just as there are misconceptions about Hyundai, there are also misconceptions about Lexus. I have owned several Lexus' over the years and the only model that has a floaty ride and little road feel is the ES.

The LS has a rather taut ride and good road feel. No, you would never mistake it for a sports car but it is not intended to be a sports car. It rides and drives much like an S class Mercedes, but it is much quieter and more refined feeling.

bobad · May 2010

http://investorjunkie.com/our-2010-hyundai-genesis-purchase

Excellent blog, thanks for the link!

A few comments reminded me of comments I have read on this thread, and I believe reflect the attitude of many savvy car buyers these days.

"With either car, we didnt care about the luxury brand status."

"We werent buying the car for the snob appeal and cared less what others thought of the car."

"We cared more about the reliability, safety and features of the car, than if we can get a freshly brewed cup of coffee at their service center. When purchasing a car, the goal should be visiting the dealership at little as possible, not becoming best buddies with the service rep. This seems to be the deal when buying a Mercedes Benz."

I don't believe the blogger is a Hyundai fanboy. Even if his experience with the Genesis is perfect, I believe he is too smart to ever become a fanboy.

backy · May 2010

It's nice to see some people are using their own brains in deciding on which car to purchase, vs. worrying about what others will think of their purchase. Obviously the market Hyundai is after. There's many posts here about how not everyone would buy a Hyundai. That is true no matter which brand you talk about--every brand has some percentage of the population who would not want to buy one. To be successful, in the luxury market and overall, Hyundai doesn't need for everyone to be willing to buy one... just some people. Hyundai's increase in US market share over the past few years, and Genesis sales to date, are testament to the fact that more and more buyers are OK with the idea of buying a Hyundai, and even paying mid-$30s to over $40k for one. Even with that slanted H badge on the trunk.

bobad · May 2010

Hyundai's increase in US market share over the past few years, and Genesis sales to date, are testament to the fact that more and more buyers are OK with the idea of buying a Hyundai

In the car industry, momentum is elusive, even hard to define, yet crucial. It's the convergence of several things,,, the product line, quality, styling, pricing, advertising, and even that old devil public acceptance. I can feel Hyundai's momentum building with each new release since 05. That's good news in every way for all car buyers, and we should all welcome it.

I'll be in the market for a new car in ~3 years. I don't know if it will be a Hyundai or not, but I bet it will be influenced by Hyundai many ways.

iluvmysephia1 · May 2010

Even with that slanted H badge on the trunk.

I am glad Hyundai kept the slanted H on the trunk and here's why. They created, designed, built, insured their plants and people who built the car, stood behind it with the best Warranty in the business and lastly, it's a car they should be proud of building. Of course the slanted H should be on the car anywhere they want to put it.

Until the dorks who put Hyundai down come up with a better car they should just shut the hell up unless they can build a perfect beast.

Like ta see 'em try. :shades:

backy · May 2010

Don't mince words, iluv... tell us what you really think!

The real test of Hyundai's brand strategy will be the Equus. If they can sell a $50-60k car under the Hyundai label, it will put to rest the fading memories of the Excel. If not... that will lend credence to the theory that Hyundai has pushed too far, too fast. We'll know later this year.

wolverinejoe80 · May 2010

i'm sure they can sell, but how many though? i would say about 200 per month is not a bad number for Equus.

sooththetruth · May 2010

I am startled that there are some stating that Hyundai will have to "pay it's dues" before garnering respect. It seems to me that Lexus didn't have to pay dues very long before a lot of eyes were opened.

Hyundai is doing all of us a favor, because the price of good cars is being held down by their presence. As for the the German marques, there is no doubt that they still give a more "religious" or spiritually fulfilling drive...but they tend to give back all that Karma when they start having expensive breakdowns just as the warranty runs out.

There is no point in criticizing the shopping decisions of Americans. People will vote with their feet, and they voted NOT to buy the Phaeton, though I think it was a good car that in 2004 had so many problems off the bat that they were essentially dead in the water. The lack of a marquee name did matter too, of course. But I really believe that VW wanted to present the greatest car in the world, and had the misfortune of being too ambitious with their first attempt.

Someone has commented on the northern sales of Genesis lost because of the lack of all wheel drive, and I suppose that is true. But I am pretty sure they will get around to it. The Phaeton tried to have everything, but the emotional cost of going through the growing pains was too great. Meaning Hyundai is making sure that Asian reliability is still an accepted benefit of their vehicles.

And, let's face it, some people want a reliable car more than they want the spiritual experience. I sold a used Phaeton because I lost patience with the rate of repair work. Hyundai is trying to walk the line between both worlds with the Genesis. Personally, I don't think they have their suspension quite up to snuff, yet, and it might prevent me from buying the next one, but I am still impressed by the value, and the gas mileage (20 mpg city, and 27 mpg highway (at 80 mph cruise control). Hyundai has done most things with this car very, very well.

Yeah, they will have to pay dues, but the dues are in sweat, not in time. I don't think they are likely to quit before getting it right. I suspect my next vehicle (though I live in the South) will be an all wheel drive Hyundai, because the weight issues of all wheel drive are being somewhat compensated for by the elimination of friction losses in the non-driven tires.

I may end up getting a Subaru. Now that's a brand that I think should come up with a luxury branded car. I am almost surprised they haven't. I think all wheel drive safety features are going to become more clear in the future, and even in warmer weather.

For now, my Hyundai is growing on me, and so I remain a staunch believer that they will cut into the Japanese Luxury Market. And if they can match the compliance/cornering balance of the BMW....

Oh, someone earlier in the thread ridiculed the shape of the new Infiniti M series, and I admit that startled me. I think the new M's look Aston Martin beautiful, and I suspect their sales will increase markedly, cutting into 5 series sales very soon, if the driving experience is even close to that of the new 5 series (which incidentally continues to have a ridiculously small back seat). Frankly, I can't buy the 3 and 5 series BMW's because there interior space is impractical, and their interior styling decidedly retro, but not retro enough to be cool retro, rather lame retro.

captain2 · May 2010

I am startled that there are some stating that Hyundai will have to "pay it's dues" before garnering respect. It seems to me that Lexus didn't have to pay dues very long before a lot of eyes were opened.
you are right about Lexus hiting the ground running and the fact that there was little resistance to the NEW luxury brand BUT a few things to remember:
1. The LS was THAT good relative to what the Germans were doing at the time
2. Toyota had such a good name at the time - that the fact that Toyota was making the thing was an ASSET to the new marque
3. they did establish a new brand to at least partially take care of the carbuyer's often absurd brand consciousness.
and lastly
4. those new Lexus dealerships established a new standard for what a 'luxury' dealer should be - in fact reinforcing the Lexus luxury image.

'Paying their dues' is an interesting comment - but in the case of the Gen, Hyundai has really only addressed 1 of these 4 things that Lexus (and Acura) both did so well 20 years ago.
Agree with you on Subaru incidentally - a brand with a solid enough rep that they could ride those favorable brand perceptions through the creation of a 'luxury' brand - one that would perhaps play off the all weather' cpapbilities of most of Subaru's products.

stever · May 2010

I think Subaru tried to go upscale a bit with the B9 Tribeca and I don't think it ever met sales expectations. Subaru has been leaving their little niche behind a bit, but they still have tons of repeat business by focusing on AWD and versatility, more so than luxury.

Plus they've increased production quite a bit in Indiana to keep up with demand and may not have the capacity to scale up to another platform without risking a lot. Maybe they could clone a Lexus though, since Toyota owns a good piece of them (16% iirc).

backy · May 2010

Are you saying then that Acura is a good model for Hyundai to follow? A model that has resulted today in only one luxury car, the RL, despite the nearly 25 year history of Acura? A model in which that luxury car has pitifully small sales, e.g. only 558 sales in all of 2010 so far--about 1/3 of Genesis sedan sales for a single month? Should THAT be the model that Hyundai uses to launch its luxury brand?

smarty666 · May 2010

Yeah, I have to agree with backy here and this is coming from me, who has had two Acura products, one currently. I would hope Hyundai would not follow Acura in their model because currently Acura is heading in the wrong direction. It pains me to say it, but my 3G TL and most of the offerings before 2009 were better than the styling and direction Acura has taken the company. Its very disappointing to see and like Cadillac but for different reasons, mainly due to GM corporate culture/problems, Acura's reputation/image has actually decreased in the last few years, mainly because their lack of a RWD/V8 model, no luxury sport coupes, and various other reasons!

One of the troubling things with Acura, and Honda to, is there lack of a strong/consistent long-term goal/plan direction they want to take the company. One minute they say they want to compete with Lexus, BMW, MB, and Audi then say they don't, then say they want to focus on smart luxury, then they don't then they go back, and they just consistently remain wishywashy. Both companies have begun to be stagnate in the market in regards to style, luxury features, sport performance, sales etc! They both became to complacent in the fact that people bought their products, because they were a Honda or a Acura, and that meant everything in regards to reliability, quality, etc. If you notice the latest stent that happen with Toyota, Honda did not benefit that heavily from their problems. If you notice, Hyundai, Ford, Nissan, and GM to a lesser extent were the biggest beneficiaries of their problems.

Problem is, they no longer can simply rely on their reliability/quality reputation to keep up with sales because now, companies like Hyundai, Ford, and Nissan are really rivaling them in quality, reliability, technological innovation (ie CVT or fuel efficient tubro 4 cyls as examples) and feature content in the bang for the buck category. Its unfortunate. Personally for me, I think my 3G TL was a closer, better competitor to the BMW 3, G35, C, and A4 at the time then the new 4G TL is. Just to clarify, I'm just saying the 3G TL was a nice competitor in style, size, feature content, etc but it was by no means better at sport performance and handling than a 3-Series or G35 at that time!

I mean Acura still makes very high quality/ fit & finish products, great reliability, some of the best technology, namely their nav systems, but they no longer are the best bang for the buck and their is no sign of technological/mechanical innovation, GOOD styling changes, and performance offerings that their main competitors are offering. If Acura and Honda don't get their act together they will be left in the dust. It such a shame, because I do like Acura at heart, I wouldn't have had two vehicles from them if I didn't think so, but I've been turned off with their current exterior styling and probably will be shopping else where the next time around!

captain2 · May 2010

Are you saying then that Acura is a good model for Hyundai to follow? A model that has resulted today in only one luxury car, the RL, despite the nearly 25 year history of Acura
you had better do some googling on Acura - because the RL had absolutely nothing to do with Acura's success 25 or so years ago - it was really the Legend which in the mid 30ksat the time a proper attempt at a 'luxury' sedan at the time. Had Acura continued with the spirit of what the Legend was, I don't believe that they have the same second tier luxury recognition that they do today. And yes the Acura brand has lost its way over the years with too much emphasis on misc 'entry level' vehicles IMO. Therefore not a model for Hyundai to follow...
Lexus is probably the best model to follow, with the products Hyundai already has -BUT sold at proper lux dealers with other suitably upmarket products. And don't put too much weight on RL sales numbers, it competes in a different arena than the Gen sedan.

sooththetruth · May 2010

I've been turned off with their current exterior styling

Absolutely.

I wonder how they sell any at all.

I had an 1988 legend two door coupe, and when I see an old one now, I still think it looks so much better than their current "astroboy" designs.

captain2 · May 2010

the B9 Tribeca and I don't think it ever met sales expectations.
yet another example of what a mainstream brand CANNOT do perhaps - Subaru undeniably a mainstream brand - the car of choice in the mountain states. The Tribeca a bit pricey, perhaps too much so for a mainstream brand.

houdini1 · May 2010

In my mind there is one big problem with opening a luxury channel. In so doing you put a cap on the lower level brand so as not to compete or be as good as the luxury brand.

I think this is one of the reasons that we have seen Toyota's and Honda's quality go down in the last few years. They are being decontented, subpar materials are being used, etc. etc. You start a luxury brand and you are competing with yourself. You have placed a ceiling on what you can do with the lower level.

backy · May 2010

And the Legend became the RL when Acura moved away from names to letters. So what? Acura, for all its efforts, has one luxury car to show for it--one that is a mere blip on the sales charts. I also remember the early days of Acura giving us the Integra (a nice little car, gussied-up Civic that it was, but no luxury car) and the Vigor ('nuff said on that one). Yet a couple of posts ago you were touting Lexus and Acura in the same sentence as models of how to roll out a luxury brand. Now it's just Lexus. Maybe Hyundai saw the 1-out-of-3 success ratio of the J3 in starting their own luxury brands and decided to try a different approach. .333 is real good in baseball, but not in business.

Since the Equus will compete directly, price-wise, with the RL, I'll keep in mind what you just said about less than 150 sales a month being something to not put much weight on.

captain2 · May 2010

They are being decontented, subpar materials are being used, etc. etc. You start a luxury brand and you are competing with yourself
an interesting theory - I always thought Toyota though had done a reasonable job upgrading materials as well as fit/finish for their Lexus branded products - I mean an ES350 may be a mechanical twin of a Camry XLE, but go look and them closely and there is something you get for the extra money - other than a name. Don't believe that the ES really competes with the Camry, even if it should. Such is the power of the Lexus name.
Don't believe that the Lexus only LS has been decontented or even cheapened , although it has gone up in price substantially. The D3, however, have made 'competing with themselves' and artform over the years - think of all the Cadillac and Lincoln rebadges, and FTM all the Chevy std. switchgear you can have on a $100k Vette - for no extra charge.

Hyundai, if it does decide to try establishing that luxury brand though will have to avoid that temptation to rebadge 'standard' Hyundai products, just for the sake of some sales $. Anything that effectively hurts the exclusivety of (and lends some commonality to) a product, will also damage any luxury pretensions of that product and the 'Genesis' brand. The Germans have generally kept things on a higher plane over the years , although the BMW 1s and MB Cs have got to have you wondering. :confuse:

captain2 · May 2010

Since the Equus will compete directly, price-wise, with the RL, I'll keep in mind what you just said about less than 150 sales a month being something to not put much weight on
you have this tendency to want to compare things (like GS sales or RL) only when you think those comparisons somehow support your position. I mean if you want to compare Gen sales with something then compare them to the sales of other upscale sedans and if you are going to want to compare Equus sales to something that it more obviously targeted at - try evaluating it in relation to the LS/7/S sales that Hyundai thinks it will be an 'equal' to.

backy · May 2010

So now you are saying we should not compare cars that are in the same price range? How then should cars be classed for comparison? I have tried to do it by the size and features of the car, e.g. compare the Genesis to other large-ish RWD luxury sedans that offer both V6 and V8 power, e.g. GS and M. But you didn't like that comparison because the Genesis cost less than those cars. But you DO think it's OK to compare the Equus, which will start around $50k, with the LS, which starts at $65k and goes to $75k (n/i the stretch version). Why is it OK in your mind to do that, when it's NOT ok to compare a car like the Genesis 4.6 to the Acura RL, which are within a few thousand dollars of each other, or the Genesis to the GS or M?

Talk about making comparisons only that support your position! :P

captain2 · May 2010

And the Legend became the RL when Acura moved away from names to letters. So what?
Guess you didn't want to google anything - you only show that you really don't know how good Acura products were when the brand was established. The RL came 10 years after the original Legend and a lot less of a car - to wit:

takes confidence to name a car the Legend. If it had been forgettable with nothing legendary about it, Acura could have found itself derided for the irony. It would have forever become the butt of automotive jokes, or worse, part of an Alanis Morissette song. Luckily for Honda's luxury division, its bravado paid off with the Acura Legend, a car that's still held in high regard years after it bowed out in favor of an ironically forgettable replacement.

The Acura Legend was launched in 1986 alongside the Integra sport hatchback to create the Acura brand in North America. Actually co-developed with British automaker Rover (which named its version of the car the Sterling 825), the Legend -- available in sedan and coupe body styles -- was immediately a hit among consumers and reviewers alike.

a review/article, incidentally, from Edmunds.com

remembering of course that those shiny new Acura dealers were wonderful and only to be bested by those Lexus (and Infiniti) dealers a few years later.
The Legend (and Integra to a lesser degree) both had a lot to do with Acura's early success and did establish a 'luxury' brand. What they have done with it (2nd tier lux brand IMO) since the Legend (with the RL etc) is not the point . Honda in effect showed Toyota/ Lexus how to do it. If Hyundai really thinks that somebody is going to pay $50 or $60k for a Hyundai branded product, I think that they should be reading their history books.

wolverinejoe80 · May 2010

Integra was a car for import tuners. it had absolutely nothing to do with a luxury. and maybe it's just me, but that's what acura should've been. a luxury brand that has a small hardcore coupe.

acura maybe have been still cool if they stuck with the original formula. but too bad they had to replace integra with horrendous RSX.

backy · May 2010

I don't want to google? Ha. That's funny.

The Acura Legend, sold as the Honda Legend outside the U.S., Canada, and parts of China, was a sporty luxury vehicle sold from 1986 to 1995 as both a sedan and coupe. It was one of the first vehicles sold under the Acura nameplate, and was the flagship sedan under the Acura nameplate until being replaced in 1996 by the Acura RL (officially badged as the Acura 3.5RL). The 3.5RL was a rebadged version of the third generation Honda Legend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acura_Legend

But I like your thought about how the Civic-based Integra helped Acura establish itself as a luxury brand:

The Legend (and Integra to a lesser degree) both had a lot to do with Acura's early success and did establish a 'luxury' brand.

If that was OK for Acura, I am sure you'll agree it's OK for Hyundai to use economy cars to help establish itself in the luxury market.

As for Acura showing Lexus and Infiniti the way... I guess if Hyundai isn't concerned about longevity in the luxury market, they could follow Acura's lead. Or Infiniti's. Infiniti also hasn't done really well in the luxury market--like Acura, only one luxury car, the M, to show for all their money and effort over the years. And the M hasn't been much of a sales success, has it? No, not a great model to follow either. Maybe Lexus--rebadge the Sonata as a Lexus, as Lexus did with the Camry to form the first ES, spruce it up some, and use it to help establish itself in the luxury market--kinda like Acura did with the old Integra. What do you think of that idea? You should like it, since you liked it for the J3.

stever · May 2010

what a mainstream brand CANNOT do

Subaru is more mainstream than they were when I saw my first one in the early 70's in Evergreen, Colorado. Very narrow, but the owner loved it's ability in the snow. But Subaru can't really afford to invest too much in a luxury ride I don't think. Too much risk if it bombs.

Subaru's owner, Fuji Industries has 4 main divisions and 15,000 employees.

Hyundai Motor has 75,000 employees. Hyundai Motor is just a division of Hyundai Kia Automotive Group.

The revenue streams are a bit different.

lemko · May 2010

I remember the Acura Legend very well. A co-worker bought one and it truly lived up to its name. That's coming from somebody who is hardly an import fanboy. The Legend was a great name. Acura lost something when it went away from great names like Legend and Integra to today's alphanumeric gobbledy-[non-permissible content removed].

lemko · May 2010

I don't know if the Integra was built with tuners in mind. I think it became a preferred car of tuners as the cars became affordable as they aged and young buyers could afford them.

bobad · May 2010

I think this is one of the reasons that we have seen Toyota's and Honda's quality go down in the last few years. They are being decontented, subpar materials are being used, etc. etc.

This is one of the most common complaints I hear, and one of the main reasons people jump brands. I can't fathom it, it's beyond my understanding why any car manufacturer would reduce the quality of materials in their cars. Staying the same is OK, charging slightly more is OK. Putting pressure on suppliers to reduce their prices over the long term is the best solution. Reducing materials quality is a sure way to turn off customers and make them look elsewhere. Nothing puts off a customer more than sitting in a new car and noticing it's not as nice as previous models.

houdini1 · May 2010

I always thought Toyota though had done a reasonable job upgrading materials as well as fit/finish for their Lexus branded products

I agree, so perhaps I wasn't clear. The Lexus division is fine...it is the Toyota's, especially the Camry, that has gone downhill, IMO.

dean3927 · May 2010

I agree that the buyer sounds rational and knowledgeable about cars in general.

I thought it particularly interesting that the final 2 choices came down to the Avalon and Genesis (a comparison not inrequently made here), and, a 2010 Genesis at that (with a revised suspension).

smarty666 · May 2010

Yeah I was just going to say, Honda has not cut in material quality/fit & finish and are still class leading in those regards, though there are other areas, like body style/features, etc that I would beg to differ.

It is definitely Toyota specifically who has gone downhill with material quality/ fit & finish! I saw this specifically with the Camry and RAV-4 I test drove last year! Both models are due for major redesigns so will see if Toyota got the message or not!

dean3927 · May 2010

2. Toyota had such a good name at the time - that the fact that Toyota was making the thing was an ASSET to the new marque

You have stated this thought repeatedly in making the point that the situation with Hyundai and the Genesis/Equus today is different from that of Toyota and the LS then, and thus Hyundai ought to have achieved a practically flawless reputation before launching the Genesis/Equus.

I have read at least one professional review of the Genesis, in which yet another expected reference to Toyota and its LS was made. However, the review stated clearly that Lexus helped a less than perfect, still-looked-down perception of Toyota; that the LS helped change people's minds about Toyota products.

Can you demonstrate that Toyota had "such a good name at the time"?

captain2 · May 2010

Can you demonstrate that Toyota had "such a good name at the time"?
the success of of both Lexus and Acura demonstrates it, because neither of them would have made it without the correspondent association with their mfgrs. - and additionally the slower ascent of Infiniti also testifies to the fact that Nissan's rep at the time was on a somewhat lower level and also shows how good that rep must be to succeed in the rapid manner that Toyota and Honda did..

sooththetruth · May 2010

I agree with Captain2. I'm old enough to remember. I bought my first Acura Legend in '88 because of Honda's rep, and suspected the Lexus would be highly reliable. My father bought a first year Lexus LS400, and the first drive was just shocking for me, but my father had no concerns about buying it. Both the big German Marques and the American marques' reliability were in the toilet by 1989, and the Japanese big 3 records were immaculate. (Toyota/Honda/Nissan).

fintail · May 2010

Around here a lot of Integras sold to the middle aged secretary types when new. When they hit about 5 years old they'd depreciate to the level where the kids would pick them up.

captain2 · May 2010

it truly lived up to its name
yeah, it did - and a 'proper' lux car entry in its time. What it didn't do in its last rendition is keep up with the fad to RWD, a continuing mistake on Acura's part IMO. It's success, those beautiful Acura dealers, and the whole way the transaction process was handled did establish a benchmark for many others to follow - including Lexus.

captain2 · May 2010

Acura lost something when it went away from great names like Legend and Integra to today's alphanumeric gobbledy-[non-permissible content removed].

can you say Lincoln? Does anybody out there really know which one is the Fusion clone, which one the Taurus etc. etc.? Limits product differentiation AFAIAC
Actually would suggest that Genesis is a great name, but do believe that eventually they'll have to come with something different than simply Sedan and Coupe for the individual Genesis branded models . Kinda like Genesis Equus although I'm still not sure about Equus - or how to pronounce it :confuse:

smarty666 · May 2010

I tell you one thing about Acura that you touched on that is true, you can say what you want about their reduced status, lack of V8, RWD, styling, etc etc but by far they have a great dealership/buying experience. All you have to decide is what color you want and if you want nav or no nav, that is it. There is no beating around the bush about option packages, oh this deletes that, and you can't get that if you get this, etc etc!

I wish more could follow that model, including Hyundai, but I do give Hyundai credit, that unlike many other manufacturers, GM, Nissan, and Lexus come to mind off the bat, their option packages are not too complex and pricy and relatively easy to choose among!

schnellesauto · May 2010

Agreed. Acura needs a rear drive based instead of the Wrong (Front) drived based for me to ever consider them. The other issue is that many of their lineup are based off their lower end Honda's.
RDX is a CRV
MDX is a Pilot
TL an Accord
TSX, a European Accord

Infiniti does it (entire lineup of rear drive with optional AWD) that are not based on their Nissan USA vehicles, except QX56 which changes for 2011, why not Acura?

smarty666 · May 2010

Very good points. I just hope Acura follows Infiniti in the non-mainstream division platforms for their vehicles. I think Acura will someday but not any time soon. They don't even know what direction they want to take their company/goals/objectives let alone change their platforms completely.

captain2 · May 2010

I just hope Acura follows Infiniti in the non-mainstream division platforms for their vehicles
certainly better than the 'rebadging' they are intent on doing now - Infiniti in my mind didn't really get in the lux picture until the 2nd generation M followed the G circa 05, they had the dealers and FTM what was a generally accepted lux name, but nothing much else other thsan rebadged Nissans to that point. In that way much like Acura.
Hyundai OTH has the unique product that might otherwise qualify - if it only had the dealers and the lux name.

backy · May 2010

Infiniti in my mind didn't really get in the lux picture until the 2nd generation M followed the G circa 05...

What do you consider the Q-ship? An economy car? :surprise:

dennis87 · May 2010

Sorry, but I can't agree that the two German masques were in the reliability toilet. I have and had both a 91-93 Benz and they were dead reliable. Sold '91 in January with 205K miles and it is still being used in area and it never burned a drop of oil. The 93 is a 300SL 24V with about 120K miles again other than normal maintenance no other costs.

As far as Hyundai moving into the luxury market. In my opinion having just brought a Genesis, I think they have a great product especially considering the price but they must upgrade their dealers which just don't provide buyer environment when compared to Benz, Lexus, et-al

smarty666 · May 2010

Very true, Infiniti really didn't return to the luxury market until the last Gen M and 1st Gen G Sedan. Pre-2003 it was not looking very grim for Infiniti. Frankly, the 2003 G and FX are probably are what saved them from the scrap heap and brink of extinction!

smarty666 · May 2010

Just because you had great reliability experiences, and by the way I'm more than happy you did, does not mean the vast majority did. If you look back at CR long-term reliability history, prior to about 2006, Audi, BMW, and MB had a lot of black dots in many different areas. I had a 2002 C-Class, and while overall it was not that bad and a lot of fun to drive, I did have 3-4 different things under warranty that needed to be fixed/replaced.

Overall, though it is not that way anymore. As I said, since about 2006-2007, all 3 have improved dramatically in overall reliability, especially in their big selling models. I mean the new GLK got a practically perfect score after its first year and has much better than avg reliability already!

fintail · May 2010

Oh, I didn't claim MB had problems with reliability then - it didn't. Maintenance was pricey and MSRPs were steep, but the cars were solid. The dark ages came about 10 years later for MB, and even then many of the cars weren't bad...I have a car from the tail end of that era, and it has been pretty decent, especially as I drive it hard sometimes. MB has pretty much come out of that dark age now.

captain2 · May 2010

the Q45 was a very underestimated car IMO, but never really did much perhaps because of all the cheaper stuff Infiniti was messing with at the time - the G20/I35s etc.. A good car to be sure - just not a player for whatever reason

captain2 · May 2010

the 2003 G and FX are probably are what saved them from the scrap heap and brink of extinction
and before that it was Renault, Carlo Franco and a few billion French francs!

backy · May 2010

Here's a couple of thoughts on the reasons the Q did so poorly in the marketplace:

Low sales are attributed not to the cars overall quality or performance, but to lack of advertising and the debatable prestige of the Infiniti name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infiniti_Q45

So Acura started well, with the Legend, then collapsed to irrelevance in the luxury car market. Infiniti didn't compete strongly in the luxury car market until the M debuted a few years ago. Not good models for Hyundai to follow, IMO.

Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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