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Pretension remains a huge factor...the traditional brands would be slumping if not. I think some journalists like to write about new things just for the sake of newness.
So if you or no one else can define this market... how can you and some others here be so sure Hyundai doesn't compete in said market?
Note I didn't say that the Genesis doesn't compete with the E Class and 5 Series. What I said was, I think the Genesis' main targets are the J3's luxury brands. But I also said they are not the only targets. I have no problem with anyone stating facts about car sales, e.g. that the E and 5 are doing well sales-wise. It's the confusion about the ability for a competitor to take away sales from a car that has positive sales growth that I was trying to clear up. No ire involved.
There's links to various tour groups to Ulsan if you're interested. Found a really interesting one about the mayors of Bergen and Stavanger visiting the Hyundai shipyards in Ulsan. Looks like even Europeans get to the ROK to check out Hyundai. Some the ships had really huge hood ornaments on the prows, though. :P
BTW, the Genesis was runner-up for the 2008 MT COTY--at half the price.
I just haven't seen any evidence that the Genesis has robbed the big name competition of sales or market share...but I do believe it has severely impacted the Japanese competitors to the big names both ways.
Have the Chinese made field trips to sample the tuned treats of the maker in Ulsan? No doubt some Norwegians have an interest in shipping - it's an important business there...but I doubt many German auto enthusiasts are lining up at the car factory doors in the same city.
You are #1 talking about high performance sports cars - not luxury cars, and #2 mistakenly also equating high price with luxury - something not always the case.
Never is a long time.
In light of what Toyota did, I don't rule out that Hyundai will someday be accepted as a luxury brand. The Equus is coming after Lexus very hard.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/16/report-honda-to-kill-off-acura-rl-legend-glob- - ally-discontinue/
Agreed.
In light of what Toyota did, I don't rule out that Hyundai will someday be accepted as a luxury brand. The Equus is coming after Lexus very hard.
Nope, don't agree. Toyota created a brand new brand (Lexus) that was, from the get to, meant to compete with MB, BMW, Jaguar, etc.Unless and until H does the same thing - different brand name, separate dealership body - I believe that H will remain a mainstream brand with a couple of luxury offerings.
By no means am I suggesting that the Genesis and Equus will fail - as I noted in a previous post, I'm sure there are going to be some number of folks who have champagne tastes but a beer budget, and will choose the Equus over the S-class or 7-series strictly as a value proposition. This is not a bad thing - I suspect the market is large enough to accommodate all manufacturers. I doubt that the Genesis / Equus will put a huge dent into the MB / BMW business.
Note - for those of you who think I am bashing H - my folks own a Hyundai - a 2003 Sonata GLS V6. They bought it instead of the Camry LE they were going to get. Why? Better value for money was the primary reason. H has done a fantastic job of turning their reputation around in the past 10 years or so.
Wait a minute... are you saying the only "big names" in the luxury car market are non-Asian? So Lexus and Infiniti don't qualify, for instance? If so, i find that quite a myopic view of the luxury car market, especially the market in the US.
Correct, it's not. But it does mean selling/marketing an $80k+ car alongside ordinary cars. If Nissan can do that, why not Hyundai--but with not nearly as big a price differential? In each case, the high-end car(s) help elevate the brand. For Nissan, the GT-R tauts the sportiness that Nissan wants people to think exists in its offerings. For Hyundai, it's not sportiness (although the coupe could help there), but quality and luxury. Different goals, but a similar approach.
Nissan did make a distinct division for luxury cars, albeit they are selling only one luxury car today through that special and expensive channel. Was it worth the effort and money? I wonder...
I am making a comparison between Nissan's strategy, which is to sell an $80k+ car alongside lesser cars, and Hyundai's strategy, which is to sell a $40k+ car and soon a $50k+ car alongside lesser cars. I think it's on the topic of this thread, since Hyundai has been blasted by some here for their strategy re selling their high-priced cars alongside Accents and Elantras.
I am glad though that you agree a luxury car doesn't have to have a high price--that is exactly what Hyundai is trying to get across to car buyers.
IMO, Nissan was going after the sporty image long before this GT-R came to our shores. Nissan has been making sports cars for some time longer than I've been alive.
Toyota also has sold luxury cars through a special and expensive channel, and has markedly influenced at least the NA market....very well worth it for them.
To dominate markets on a global basis, you need to dominate the largest markets. Your "big names" don't even dominate the largest luxury car market: the US. Lexus has outsold both MB and BMW through June. Where is the domination over the Japanese luxury marques? And on a global basis, Toyota dominates MB and BMW and every other "big name" in the automotive market. MB and BMW aren't even in the top ten, worldwide.
But now I understand your attitude towards Hyundai.
No, because there is too high a price differential (see: Phaeton). And if they came out with, say, a $40k sedan that was worthy of that price, they would be cannibalizing Cadillac sales, so that is a no-op strategy for GM.
Hyundai, however, has no such internal competition.
How many of those Lexus sales were RX/IS and not actual "luxury" models?
MB and BMW are easily the worldwide highline leaders, hands down. This is not about total sales, it is about the upper end of the market. Lexus is barely a blip on the radar in the global lux game, and Infiniti is that much smaller again. Everyone wants to emulate those Germans.
Just one example, me. I chose the V6 Genesis over the 5 Series BMW mostly because the 5 series back seat is not reasonably large enough.
My perception of the value of the Genesis was increased further by the low cost, low maintenance cost into the future, and my preference for the beauty of the interior.
Did I notice the difference in the driving experience? Well, I did, but did not deem it worth the money.
I had all but purchased a used 5 series when I went to look at the Genesis.
I would have paid more for the BMW if the back seat were adequate for my needs, and if I felt the BMW would be reliable, and if there had been a dealership willing to pick up the car for maintenance, since I live 70 miles from the nearest one.\\
However, Hyundai, because they have no separate Genesis showroom, had a dealership on my way to work.
I have already had a VW Phaeton, requiring maintenance 70 miles away. In this instance, the LACK of a luxury marque dealership probably earned Hyundai the sale.
Convenience mattered to me.
Lexus is just a paper company, and I refuse to play their game and recognize it. If Lexus has a widespread dangerous defect that's covered up, Mr. Toyoda is paraded before the Congress, not Mr. Lexus.
Do you think that's about Lexus quality, buyer perception, or serious disadvantages imposed on non-EU car makers? I haven't researched it, but I'll bet taxes and red tape on Japanese products are outrageous. Level the playing field, and I bet Lexus sales skyrocket.
Someone bought a Phaeton?
So, in fact, the big names do dominate their segments of the largest markets.
No matter, this evolved from Lexus being unable to crack the European highline market...I can't see why H would be able to do otherwise, trying to sell the Grandeur for lower E/5er money doesn't point to competent planning.
You didn't talk about $70k thresholds and "upper end of the market" before--why now? Because you realized that the European automakers do not in fact dominate any market outside their home market, when the market is viewed generally and not through a very small lens?
Do you happen to have handy the actual sales numbers for your "big names" in countries like China and Japan, to substantiate your claim that the big names dominate those markets?
IMO 20,000 cars per year is "a crack", but I know it won't be enough for you, nor will the fact that Toyota outsells the 2 big home teams (MB and BMW) in Europe. I'll bet Hyundai would gladly take 20,000 luxury car sales in Europe... for a start.
******
Uhh, the LS400 w/ an original MSRP of $35K was more of a "discount luxury car" than the Genesis sedan - while both are/were closer in price to the C Class and 3 Series, the LS400 was a "full-size" luxury sedan, as opposed to the Genesis, which is "mid-size."
And that analogy is far from accurate.
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The Genesis sedan may not be taking a lot of sales away from the Germans (altho, there are a decent no. of former BMW owners in the Genesis forum), but ever since the Genesis sedan was launched, the sales figures for the Lexus GS and Infiniti M have declined (w/ the new M, Infiniti saw a bump, but after the 1st month, even the new M is seeing a sales decline).
Coincidence? Maybe.
It's also quite possible that the declining sales of the GS and M are merely coincidental w/ the increasing sales of the Genesis.
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Hardly (gee, is it possible to exaggerate even more?).
Young people today don't see Hyundai the same way as older people (well, some of them, anyway) who can't quite comprehend that things change.
The Sonata would be no worse than the Camcord (might even be better since the Camcord is seen as being "beige") and is better than the smaller Corolla or Civic and the even smaller Yaris.
As for giving a teen an old BMW for a 1st car - aside from all the maintenance issues, an old car (whether it is a BMW or other) wouldn't be as safe since it doesn't have all the latest safety gadgets, much less having advanced structural integrity (via both engineering and use of high-tensile steel).
And getting a rookie driver a large SUV or truck isn't exactly the smartest thing either.
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Well, in that case, the LS400 should be compared to the entry-level German models, the C Class, 5 Series and A4 - since that's where it was closest to in price.
Even now - the offerings by Lexus, Infiniti and Acura still undercut their German competitors by quite a bit.
While I'm sure that there are many Gen buyers who have convinced themselves that they have bought a luxury car. They are, unfortunately, fooling themselves only because such an evaluation is much more subjective than that and has little if anything to do with the car itself."
******
You (as usual), contradict yourself a no. of times.
You state that the evaluation is "much more subjective" - then in the same sentence, totally dismiss what Genesis owners actually think (i.e. - subjective).
Once again, the most luxurious model that Toyota/Lexus has is a Toyota (and not a Lexus) - the Century.
And all Infinitis and Acuras are sold as Nissans and Hondas in Japan (just as it was for Lexus until a few years ago).
Anyway, this is all rather academic since Hyundai is planning to sell the 2nd gen Genesis sedan (as well as a no. of other models) under a new luxury nameplate - but it is rather ludicrous to think that the Genesis changes from a non-luxury sedan to a luxury sedan simply b/c of a change in nameplate (by this criteria, a person owning a Nissan Cima or Toyota Celsior doesn't own a luxury sedan even tho they are pretty much identical to the Infiniti Q and Lexus LS).
While Hyundai isn't a luxury nameplate, that doesn't mean that they can't have luxury models (just as not every model that Mercedes or BMW offers qualifies as a luxury vehicle).
You made the initial claim about Japan, how about you show where your numbers come from, and then I will counter. The onus is on you, fanboy. European makers dominate countless luxury markets away from the home market - and luxury markets are what is relevant here.
This discussion was never about total brand sales, but luxury cars...so trying to distract with total sales of Toyota is a weak ploy. How do the Toyota luxury cars fare on the continent? We all know the answer, even if we don't want to admit it.
Hyundai isn't going to get 20000 lux sales in Europe...I see no evidence that H is even going to sell their higher products in Europe at all - especially when the company has admitted the Equus won't be sold in Europe.
Actually, you made the initial claim re the German automakers ruling the world's luxury market, but I haven't seen any figures to back that up yet. I agree they dominate their home market, the EU. So let's see your figures proving that the German automakers rule the luxury market on a worldwide basis, e.g. some other major market besides the EU--how about the US, China, or Japan? And without any artificial price barriers, e.g. $70k.
Hyundai isn't going to get 20000 lux sales in Europe...
Never is a long time. Let's see what happens. Also, I think you might be confusing reports that Hyundai won't offer the Genesis sedan in Europe at this time, for the Equus. I can't find any official statement from Hyundai that they won't offer the Equus in Europe. Can you please post a link to that report for us? I did find this report from C/D in early 2009 that quotes a Hyundai spokesman as saying the Equus will come to Europe "early in the next decade":
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/car/09q1/2010_hyundai_equus-auto_shows
Do you think it was a coincidence that the latest Equus was unveiled in Geneva? I don't.
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews/car-and-driving/hyundai-grandeur-1005925.ht- ml
Still, for a 5-year-old car that was designed primarily for the US market, it seems to acquit itself pretty well in the review, except for the depreciation bug-a-boo. And fuel economy of course. It's not a fuel-sipper.
I don't think the Grandeur is a good example of the know-how running out for Hyundai's high-end models--it's an older design, and not even a luxury car, but a upscale FWD sedan ala Avalon and Maxima. The know-how is going into the new powertrains, the new car models--not the five-year-old Grandeur. With the Grandeur, Hyundai tried to grab a few sales in a low-cost manner by selling "what's on the truck." Since you have complained about Hyundai not attacking the European market immediately with the Genesis and Equus, I am a bit surprised you would chide them for trying to sell a few Grandeurs in Europe while they work on the next-gen car.
LPG model is 43000 Euro and you can load it up to 46000 Euro...of course, as I have never seen any evidence of one being bought and have never seen a pic of one in European traffic, maybe it's just an April Fool's joke that was never removed :shades:
It's not really a lux car indeed...but H is pricing it in lowline E and 5er territory. Are they going to try to sell an 80000 Euro Equus there?
Or maybe it's all a plot... price the Grandeur high, with no expectation of selling more of a handful. Then when the Equus comes at $50k+ USD, it won't seem very expensive. Yeah, that must be it!
I'm not a car fanatic, including Hyundai. I am a business fanatic, and I love Hyundai's bold strokes. They're already a worthy competitor, and worrying the J3. I want a front row seat to watch them go for the jugular, taking advantage of poor economy, and J3 mistakes and timidity.
MT First Drive
Wow...it's almost like I made that comment :shades:
Doesn't Samsung have some kind of tablet device that could have been used insted of the ipad? Keep it all Korean, etc.
I am sure it will be nice for the Lexus enthusiast...but I can't see why I'd choose it over a 3 year old S-class + enough to buy a good 4 year warranty and enough for routine maintenance.
Are they there yet? No of course not but they are on the right track...do I dare say more than any other car company.
So for making owners of European and Japanese luxury sedans feel foolish, the 5.0-liter Equus is the ultimate embarrassment tool.
In other words, the Equus is not in the same league as European and Japanese luxury cars. Instead, it is so good it will make owners of those other brands feel foolish. (At least, when the 5.0 V8 is available next year.)