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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Ah, but this isn't just a mention on BMW's web site... this is a mention in several recent BMW press releases on its new models. If people don't read BMW's press releases, that is an issue BMW will have to contend with.

    You can ignore the facts, but it doesn't make them go away.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Who other than fanboys reads press releases about cars, online or via any other means? Seriously? Really? Consumers don't look at that propaganda, they read the watered down junk seen on general sites.

    I'm not the one ignoring the facts about the Genesis design and who it wants to be.
  • LASHAWNLASHAWN Member Posts: 303
    Who really cares what who is trying to look like who anyway? I don't really care, if the car looks good, drives and handles good, has everything in it that I like in a luxury car than amen, sign me up.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Where do you think the "general sites" get their "junk" to publish? A lot of it comes from press releases, which the general sites repeat and sometimes add their own 2 cents to.

    Seriously, BMW has a major problem if their marketing efforts are being ignored by all but the BMW fanboys.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Non-enthusiasts don't care about the names of styling details. General junk sites know this.

    BMW has no marketing issues at all, judging by their sales on a national and global level.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Great. By that measure, Hyundai's marketing is issue-free also. :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    At least in TV ad form, Hyundai is doing a good job of touting their rise to competence, yes.

    Although the dopes in the parking lot test drive spots seem a little misleading sometimes. You aint gonna get what they are driving for $199/month.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sonata is $199 a month now--just saw one of those TV ads you love so much. Others driven in the ads e.g. Elantra can be had for less. Some are more. All of which is irrelevant to Hyundai's chances in the luxury market.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    A leather lined SuperSonata isn't $199 a month unless you put like $8K down...nor is a spot that touts the lower cars but shows people obviously driving a Genesis (that copied C-pillar can be handy).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe you can call your attorney in the morning re filing a lawsuit against Hyundai for deceptive advertising (or sue the poor [non-permissible content removed] who drove a Sonta Limited but is thinking a GLS for $199 a month will do for them), and we can move on.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Yes, because H can do no wrong and no actions should be questioned or mocked. The best cars in looks, performance, quality, resale, heritage, competition, marketing, you name it.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Took my Genesis over to the dealer the other day and had it car washed. The service manager came over and asked if I was happy with my Genesis and I said that I was very very pleased with the automobile after a 1 1/2 years of ownership. He said that the Genesis has been an overwhelming success with sales out pacing even their most positive forecast. He went on to say that most customers buying are trading in their late model MB, BMW, Lexus etc. They don't keep the trade-ins on the lot as they wholesale out to auction companies. My guess they don't want to promote other luxury brands just Hyundais.

    Equus is coming in late September and they are only allotted 2-3 for the year. According to the guy they already have a waiting list.
  • sooththetruthsooththetruth Member Posts: 40
    I've had my Hyundai 3.8 V6 Genesis for 11,500 miles, now. Had it for only 7 months, but I like driving vacations. Here's the shocker, though I have mentioned it on this forum before, I replaced a 2004 VW Phaeton with the Genesis. The Phaeton was an unbelievable car. Great interior. Great aura. But the Hyundai has almost as big an interior (which I needed) and is much more fun to drive. Of course fun to drive is a purely subjective opinion, but even with NEW suspension on the Phaeton the car was too heavy to drive aggressively without feeling the wallow due it's great weight.

    I still think the Hyundai (a 2010, by the way) has a bit of a nervous ride, but I am used to it, now, and really appreciate the fun that ride translates into. Acceleration of my V6 matches that of the Phaeton, even surpasses it in town.

    Listen, if the Phaeton didn't break every 15 minutes (usually nuisance stuff....never left me stranded) I would have kept it. But I had to drive 70 miles for service, and the car was there every two weeks, and there was no end in site for the repairs.

    Yeah, the Hyundai is as quiet, more fun to drive. I call it a luxury car, and it were badged German it would be selling twice as much.

    Right now I have NO BUYER'S REMORSE. Always felt the backseat in the 5 series BMW was so tight that there was no reason not to buy a 3 series, or move to the 7. My Genesis is JUST RIGHT, and I have fun driving it, every day. I can't imagine how much more fun I would have driving the BMW, but I suppose I would, but I could not buy the 5.35 because I don't trust the turbo engine yet. I don't want a high maintenance car. I think low maintenance is part of my definition of luxury.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    I still think the Hyundai (a 2010, by the way) has a bit of a nervous ride, but I am used to it, now

    I don't know how anyone gets used to the way it rides. Granted, mine is an early build 09, (probably one of the first off the boats) and there was a suspension change mid year 09, but mine is to the point that I hate to drive it. You have no idea what the car is going to do next. Mine is stiff in the front, oversprung and bouncy in the rear, the steering requires constant adjustment to stay straight ahead and transmits every bump in the road through the steering wheel.

    IMO none of these behaviors are constant with "luxury" I do tend to like a floaty ride, but I have driven other stiffly suspended cars that just act differently than the Genesis.

    What I can't understand is how everything else about the car is superb. The interior is beautiful, comfortable, and holding up nicely. The car is tight and rattle free and aside from the power steering wheel limit switch it has been reliable. ">

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Yeah, $199 a month provided you have a substantial down payment or you intend to finance it until the next ice age.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    All of which is irrelevant to Hyundai's chances in the luxury market.
    wrong like usual -l the fact that Hyundai also sells perfectly fine and relatively cheap mass market vehicles likie the Sonata/Elantra etc has much to do with the fact that Hyundai will NEVER find room in the luxury market
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Big difference between doing no wrong and picking the nits with the world's biggest nit picker. But between the nit picks, it's clear you give Hyundai a lot of credit. Why else would you question why they aren't yet the equal to automakers like MB, which has been entrenched in the luxury market for decades, just a few years after Hyundai's first foray into the luxury market? That's putting a lot of store in Hyundai's capabilities. More store than I have, anyway. I'm not at all surprised Hyundai still has catching up to do to the established luxury automakers. Genesis was a good first step, and the Equus a daring next step, but it's only been two years since the Genesis hit the USA. What will Hyundai offer in five more years? Or ten? If I were MB, Lexus, BMW et. al., I would be a little worried.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OK then. Based on that logic, we must eliminate BMW, Infiniti, Acura, and Lexus from consideration as a luxury automakers, since they sell (or in the case of Lexus will soon sell) mass market cars from the same dealerships that sell the luxury vehicles. And in most countries besides the US, we must eliminate MB also. That leaves a pretty small luxury marketplace.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I'd have no problem recommending a Sonata to a new appliance buyer. I don't denigrate the brand, only some of the rhetoric and what I see as subpar design. No real offense meant...only a little unreal offense ;)

    I am more interested in upcoming Hyundai engines more than anything else. They are forcing everyone else to finally get technology moving along after a slow several year period of advancement.

    H could potentially have some kind of impact on the big players here - if anything it could help to keep prices from escalating...but I just don't see it happening on a global basis.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2010
    It's already happening on a "global" basis, with Hyundai a major player in nearly every market, save Japan and Europe. They are the world's 4th largest automaker by volume and the fastest-growing automaker. And they are making inroads in Europe. Based on what I've seen in the past 10 years from Hyundai, I wouldn't count them out of any market they choose to attack, given some time to refine and add to their offerings. I'm sure most people would have laughed had anyone suggested five years ago that Hyundai Group would sell close to 1 million vehicles in the US in 2010, and that they would offer not one but two luxury cars by then, ranging in price from the low $30s to over $60k.

    Next time you're at the library or neighborhood magazine rack, read the September Automobile Magazine article on Hyundai--it might give you more to think about.

    Rhetoric... that's funny, coming from you. :D
  • sooththetruthsooththetruth Member Posts: 40
    OK then. Based on that logic, we must eliminate BMW, Infiniti, Acura, and Lexus from consideration as a luxury automakers, since they sell (or in the case of Lexus will soon sell) mass market cars from the same dealerships that sell the luxury vehicles. And in most countries besides the US, we must eliminate MB also. That leaves a pretty small luxury marketplace.

    Took the words right out of my mouth.

    The most important components of success are talent and the inability to give up. Who wants to bet a Korean Co lacks either?

    I remember when Japanese cars were the disposable junk bought for the price value. No one's saying that now.

    I find the Hyundai bashing somewhat humorous. We're not dealing with Yugo's and Trabants built in a communist country, we're talking cars from a country that is hungry to be the best.

    They already dominate the LPGA, and it's no accident.

    I only wish the American Co's had the ability to move as fast. I would love to buy an American car I could love. Cadillac is about there, but I don't fit well in the cockpit's of the sportier versions, and I don't like the origami styling.

    Maybe a Buick? Oh wait, the newest are really German designs.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I was aiming at the lux category rather than the overall market. For general cars, H is gaining everywhere indeed - even the Euros have said nice things about the latest models - and they aren't tied to advertising demands as strongly as biased and bought-off American publications (which mean they will call something out as deficient if it is). But given the inability of Lexus to tear things up outside of this continent, I don't know if the higher line cars are going to go over as well.

    If I want rhetoric, I will look for Krafcik :shades:

    On a note somewhat related to the highline H cars, I see the Phaeton is coming back to the states. I wonder what brought that on.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    we must eliminate BMW, Infiniti, Acura, and Lexus from consideration as a luxury automakers, since they sell (or in the case of Lexus will soon sell) mass market cars from the same dealerships that sell the luxury vehicles.
    ahh but they aren't branded the same are they?.
    In the often obtuse and illogical world of brand perceptions, folks will buy a true lux car simply because of that badge. Hyundai's only mistake here is NOT the cars they are choosing to now produce, it is the fact they are not estabishing that separate luxury brand (and dealership) to sell it - something the brand and status conscious AMERICAN consumer has repeatedly demanded.
    You can crow all you want about how wonderful a Hyundai this or that may be - but it won't change the fact that a Hyundai branded anything will never be considered on the same level as those German brands, and even those J3 ones.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    For most people never say "never"

    In your case you will never accept that Hyundai could achieve it.

    You are still stuck in the dayswhen you lived in Korea in the late 80's when they were still making Excels.

    It will be the next generation that will determine Hyundai's future as they will have little or no knowledge of Hyundai's past just what they see now the future product.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    you're confusing Hyundai's ability to do something with the American consumer's ability to accept it. Hyundai has certainly demonstrated the ability to build some pretty damn fine automobiles, but getting the consumer to accept it is something entirely different. Yes, it's been done before but not without that brand differentiation that the autobuyer demands.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    You are still stuck in the dayswhen you lived in Korea in the late 80's when they were still making Excels.

    actually more like the mid 80s, and I actually worked in Ulsan, a very very large (and impressive) facilility that made cars as well as many other things. The Korean predecessor to the Excel was called the Pony over there BTW and were also almost all LPG fueled. Yes they were junky deathtraps, not far removed from those first 'disposable' cars sent over here. Not so much different than those first Toyotas sent over here in the mid 60s.
    My how times have changed! A Japanese brand that became a standard by which others were judged and now a Korean brand that someday would like to do the same?
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    In many cases already there now!!

    Example: one article noted that Hyundai should be no longer considered an underdog but has demonstated thru its products that it is now a leader.

    Also again its not you or me that will decide if Hyundai will become recognized as a maker of luxury automobiles but our next generation, assuming Hyundai continues to tranform itself. Will there be bumps on way ... of course.

    Who would have thought just 10 years ago the amount of progress that Hyundai has made especially in the last 5.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    On a note somewhat related to the highline H cars, I see the Phaeton is coming back to the states. I wonder what brought that on.

    Option 1: If at first you don't succeed...

    Option 2: "Ach, Franz! Hyundai is selling luxury cars under their own brand in the US; why don't we give it a try again?"

    Option 3: Hope springs eternal.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    ahh but they aren't branded the same are they?.

    Actually in all but one case, they are, and in EVERY case they are sold alongside the luxury models from these brands:

    * Infiniti G25, starting about $30k, overlaps the Sonata (one of the cars you mentioned re Hyundai selling mass market cars) in price.
    * The new Lexus CT 200h will start at $27k (source: C/D) and also overlaps the Sonata in price.
    * The Acura TSX starts at about $29k, and overlaps the Sonata in price.
    * BMW dealerships sell BMW's Mini Cooper cars alongside BMWs in the same dealerships; they start at under $19k and overlap both the Sonata and Elantra in price.

    And MB sells the A Class in many countries outside the US, and that is definitely a "mass market" car in the same general price range as the Sonata (and maybe the Elantra also).

    So if it is a mistake for Hyundai to sell their luxury cars alongside mass market cars with the same brand, in the same dealership, it must be a mistake for all those other automakers. Unless you are applying a double standard?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    I think option 2 sums it up..someone else is trying the value-brand luxobarge route, might as well try to join in. All of the development costs on that thing are likely long paid for, so any that do sell are all black ink.

    The model never died off in Europe, although from what I can tell was mainly bought by corporate and rental fleets.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    MB and BMW in those many countries have always been mass market brands, just with highline offerings. It was that way from the start. The thought of MB and BMW as lux only is a very American construct. In other places, and in the past, the highline offerings were so good, and the cars were so good in competition/sport, that the brands acquired a halo that worked its way into everything. Not easily repeatable.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    OK., but $30k entry level models are a whole lot different than a Hyundai dealer that has half his inventory (or more) in things that are sub $20k. A much different buyer demographic at a Hyundai (or Ford Chevy etc) dealer than at those Lexus/Infiniti dealers usually. Not to mention the low level market sales tactics, the comparatively grundgy dealerships, the low life newbie sales staff etc etc.

    PS you'll have a helluva time finding any Mini for $16k - they easily will also get past $30k - even if you bite on the rather strange assertion that a Mini must be a BMW because they often are sold at the same place.

    BTW 'entry level models' are one of those things that plainly test a brand's place in the luxury market. It may make it easier to own a BMW or MB, for example, but those 1s and Cs are really nothing more 'upscale' with the badge and they dilute the brand exclusivity that is a very important part of what is and is not luxury.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Who would have thought just 10 years ago the amount of progress that Hyundai has made especially in the last 5
    no problem with this either although my contention is that 5 or 10 years is not likely enough time to change those second tier perceptions that Hyunndai did earn for their past indiscretions.
    Thinking again back to 1990 - it was in part Toyota's sterling reputation as well as the way that they chose to market (swanky Lexus dealerships) that was the reasons for the LSs success. IMO when the Hyundai association becomes an asset and when they choose to sell the Genesis products in a similar manner THAT is when Hyundai may find the 'room'.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2010
    OK., but $30k entry level models are a whole lot different than a Hyundai dealer that has half his inventory (or more) in things that are sub $20k.

    How did you figure that? Let's look at Hyundai's US sales YTD and see:

    CARLINE July/2010 July/2009 CY/2010 CY/2009
    ------- --------- --------- ------- -------
    ACCENT 3,960 7,634 31,038 40,562
    SONATA 17,836 13,381 107,085 73,862
    ELANTRA 18,215 13,616 75,779 53,520
    TIBURON 0 151 0 8,497
    SANTA FE 7,047 6,793 51,423 40,266
    AZERA 218 306 1,799 2,257
    TUCSON 3,698 1,106 23,387 8,658
    ENTOURAGE 0 32 0 3,375
    VERACRUZ 823 519 4,177 7,289
    GENESIS 2,309 2,015 15,200 11,953
    TOTAL 54,106 45,553 309,888 250,239

    The Accent and Elantra go for under $20k (might be possible to get a loaded Elantra Touring over $20k, but let's be conservative). The only Tucson that is under $20k is the strippo base stick model, and that's $19.8k, no options. If you've looked, you know there's almost none of those around--but again let's be conservative and say 4000 of the 23,387 Tucsons were base stick no-options models. That's a total of 110,817 sub-$20k vehicles on Hyundai dealer lots in 2010--a little over 1/3. Hardly 50% or more as you asserted. Hyundais are no longer priced as low as they were a few years ago. For example, the new Mazda2 is priced lower, comparably equipped, than the Accent sedan! And the Elantra is pretty close to cars like the Corolla and Sentra in price. Ditto the Sonata to the Camry.

    BTW, I didn't say the Mini was $16k--I said they started just under $19k.

    Also I assure you that not all Hyundai dealerships are "grundgy", employ low-level market sales tactics, and have "low life" sales staffs.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2010
    Not easily repeatable.

    No, not easily repeatable. But repeatable. Or doable, even if not done in quite the same way automakers like MB and BMW did it.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,704
    edited August 2010
    would it be over-simplification to say that captain2's argument against Hyundai hitting the bigtime as a luxury car maker is simply because they didn't start a new luxury brand up with a separate luxury car name? And build new separate luxury dealerships for their new luxury Hyundai brands?

    Is that with this month's-long battle is based on? Fully completely? If that's enough to stop Hyundai luxury car market opportunites then luxury car buyers are simply their own cup of tea completely. The first image of this type of buyer that just popped in to my head was none other than The Donald. Donald Trump.

    I rest my case. I have people telling me online that this carmaker from Germany, VW, has grandiose plans of being the world's top automaker by the year 2018. Can VW get away with grabbing luxury car market share, Edmunds' panel of luxo-car experts? I'd love to know this.

    Because I don't trust their carmaking skill quality. Got a lot of internet reading in over the years that tells me that VW is known for crappy reliability, especially related to their ability to electrically wire their rigs. That stay together electrically and continue to work fine, for years, under all types of weather.

    Hyundai and Kia and Mitsubishi don't have these problems. Who gave VW their excessively good feelings about theirselves, I wonder?

    Panel, I'd love to read your comments regarding these issues.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    If Donald Trump was going to promote or buy a Hyundai I would not be impressed..and would be skeptical on why...he's way to superifical....Now if say Warren Buffet bought a Hyundai now that would be a right fit!!!
  • LASHAWNLASHAWN Member Posts: 303
    You guys are blowing this luxury status thing way outta proportion. Anyone can make a large automobile and fill it up with all the bells and whistles sell for $60k+ and call it luxury. In my opinion only Rolls Royce, Bentley and Maybach(maybe Maserati) are true luxury cars because only the rich can afford them. Hyundai does not have to establish a luxury brand to sell the Genesis and Equus. The Genesis is doing very well now and so will the Equus when it comes. Do we all really think having that luxury branded dealer will make them sell even more than they are now?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Anyone can make a large automobile and fill it up with all the bells and whistles sell for $60k+ and call it luxury
    or $30k or $40k ..... 'luxury' is certainly subjective and may indeed be nothing more than a collection of bells, whistles and other specs as somebody like backy would have us believe. OR what is luxury could certainly be that and more - also getting into those murky areas that go beyond some wood shards in a leather interior, maybe something to do with how a brand is perceived, how prestiguous that brand is, how difficult it is to attain (also a variable definition as you suggest) etc. etc. Which has been my point all along.
    Can Hyundai ever elevate its brandname to a level approaching those German brands or even the premium J3 ones? Not if they continue to live in the lowest extremes of the auto business IMO- simply because mass market brands by definition can not have the necessary exclusivity to also have a place in what can be considered the 'luxury' market.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    edited August 2010
    Not if they continue to live in the lowest extremes of the auto business IMO- simply because mass market brands by definition can not have the necessary exclusivity to also have a place in what can be considered the 'luxury' market.

    I personally think the automobile marketplace is overloaded as it is. GM still has two, too many brands, Ford just dumped Mercury and sales overall still aren't lighting the world on fire. To me, from a business standpoint (regardless of product) there is simply not "room" for another luxury division. How in the heck would Hyundai justify all the operating costs for the (relatively) small amount of Genesis sales. To think they would have sold more at a separate dealership with a higher price is laughable.

    If anything they gave their dealers another product to sell and boost overall volume and perception. I believe the suits over at Hyundai knew there was no way to break into the luxury market at this time. It's not the Gen that is making Hyundai successful right now. The Sonata, Elantra, Santa Fe and Tucson are paying the bills, none of which are luxury.

    The upcoming Equus is simply a "halo" product that will sell a few units initially and fade into the marketplace. 35/40K for a Genesis is one thing, but once you go above that things change alot. That upper 30s, pricepoint is not uncommon at mainstream dealers (think of a Tahoe or 2500 pickup) but above that is a totally different customer that IMO Hyundai doens't have the dealer network to service properly.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    To think they would have sold more at a separate dealership with a higher price is laughable.

    perhaps , but is the Gen sedan customer really somebody that just left a Lexus/BMW/MB showroom, or one more like you - that's is weighing that product against similarily priced cars in the same upscale category? As an 'upscale sedan' Genesis sales are nothing really remarkable.
    While we will never know what kind of sales the LS would've experienced had it been branded as a Toyota, we do know what happened with Mazda and VW mainstream branded and marketed as those entrants were. In my mind, Hyundai still needs to separate the products much in the same way the J3 did 20 years ago - they may just find out that there are a slew of existing Hyundai dealers willing to build the buildings and pay for the privilege of selling that new 'luxury' car called a Genesis. That's happened before too.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    The Accent and Elantra go for under $20k
    and the Sonata doesn't? Even after Hyundai got done dumping all those 2009s (great for that legendary Hyundai resale value) to make way for the 2010s? Do some more googling - sooner or later you'll find something to support your contentions, it is hard to find even other mainstream mfgrs that sell things for less money than what your beloved Hyundai does. Well, perhaps Kia!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    Doable...well, we will see...different world than when the Germans built their rep and strategy 75-80 or more years ago.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,097
    edited August 2010
    VW being the dominant maker will have nothing to do with the luxury market. I don't see Phaeton part II going over any better in the NA market (and I sense the Equus will mimic it), and even in Europe the car is a way out in left field player (where a large H will likely never be a factor).

    People buy them because they tend to have nice interior materials and they drive nicely. That's what gives them the good feelings. Save for a very few models, H K and M don't have those traits.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    they may just find out that there are a slew of existing Hyundai dealers willing to build the buildings and pay for the privilege of selling that new 'luxury' car called a Genesis. That's happened before too.

    Yes, it has. The only difference is at that time there wasn't as many luxury companies in the game as there are now. Infiniti was just starting, and Acura was still fairly new as well. They were fighting the Germans, Hyundai would have to fight all of them.

    Lets just say hypothetically Hyundai decides to put together a luxury lineup consisting of the following:

    Rebadge Sonata w/ new Turbo 4 and lots of tech (think cross between TL / ES350)
    Genesis (GS, E and 5 series fighter)
    Equus (LS, 7 and S fighter)
    Veracruz rebadge (RX)
    Gen Coupe (IS, TSX?)

    Now pour millions of dollars into developing these models and a marketing plan. Let's assume that the dealer foot the bill to be able to sell these new models at "Genesis" dealers. At what point does all this turn a profit in this market?

    The market is already covered in various forms of lux cars.... You have Lexus for the soft cushy crowd, Acura, Infiniti, and BMW for the sporty crowd, and Mercedes for a little bit of both. If anything a Hyundai luxury division would end up being a Lexus clone.

    Hyundai first needs to continue to plow ahead in improving brand perception and market share, then worry about luxury later. The last thing they need is another divsion to soak up profits. Hasn't anyone learned from GM's mistakes?

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • michaellnomichaellno Member Posts: 4,120
    Hyundai first needs to continue to plow ahead in improving brand perception and market share, then worry about luxury later. The last thing they need is another division to soak up profits. Hasn't anyone learned from GM's mistakes?

    Back when Lexus and Infiniti were getting started, there was a lot of press about Mazda doing the same thing ... setting up an 'upscale' brand. IIRC, the Millenia was meant to be the first model of the new brand. Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed and the proposed brand never came into being.

    Hyundai should follow Mazda's example and not create a second brand. The Genesis and Equus are, as noted above, "halo" vehicles that will draw some interested parties into the Hyundai showrooms. They will draw buyers who are shopping at a particular price point and view the Hyundai offerings as an alternative where they can get more for their money.

    The $30-45K price range offers an incredible amount of choices .. everything from SUV's and CUV's to smaller BMW's and MB's. It's quite likely that a shopper looking for something in that price range may look at the Genesis and decide they can get a larger car with a V8 and RWD for the same price as a moderately equipped 3-series, LaCrosse or TL.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,856
    It's quite likely that a shopper looking for something in that price range may look at the Genesis and decide they can get a larger car with a V8 and RWD for the same price as a moderately equipped 3-series, LaCrosse or TL.

    Based on the sales figures I believe that is exactly what happened. The hardcore luxury buyers (with the income to back it up) are not thinking of the Genesis when shopping. I personally believe (although many here disagree with me) that the primary competition for the Gen is the Avalon, Max, Taurus and LaCrosse while being loosely cross-shopped with the TL, ES, and G.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Accent and Elantra go for under $20k - and the Sonata doesn't?

    No, it doesn't. Recall what you said, which is what I replied to: you talked about cars sitting on dealer lots priced at under $20k. No Sonata today is priced under $20k. Do some new ones sell for under $20k? Sure. But that isn't the point. Also, if you do some research you'll find out-the-door pricing on the new Sonatas holding up quite well. Notice there's no general rebates on those cars, and many dealers are holding firm on prices due to high demand.

    Anyway, your argument of "Hyundai can't sell luxury cars alongside mass market cars and be successful" is already disproven, based on experience from several other automakers. I think you need to come up with another excuse as to why Hyundai can't be successful in the luxury market.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    "Germans"? Which luxury vehicles did BMW offer to the market 75-80 years ago? What was their rep and strategy outside of Germany 75-80 years ago? Where was Audi's rep and strategy a far shorter time ago? In truth, companies like BMW and Audi have a fairly short history of luxury-car rep and strategy. Until fairly recently in the US, BMW had a small sport sedan rep and strategy (cf. 2002), not a luxury car one.
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