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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    Why single out BMW? Because the Genesis dearly wishes to be a 5er?

    In the 30s virtually no brands really had a rep outside of the home country. The automotive import/export market was almost not born yet. As I said, a different world. Although at this time and even before, among the Great Gatsby and Hollywood star types as the 20s roared to an end, there were MB cars sold in the US, albeit only the highest exotic models. The cars sold on exclusive tech and styling. So in some ways, maybe something is the same.

    BMW had cars that competed in the relative 5er segment as far back as the 30s along with lower line cars and sports cars and MB had a lineup of everything from taxi-grade to world beating supercars even then. Maybe something else is the same.

    Audi, as a much smaller player, was able to gain a positive image from the high tech Quattro cars, cars that performed amazingly well in competition and had positive German stigma no matter their quirks. They stagnated, and then adopted some cutting edge design to stay alive.

    Good look imitating or emulating that.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2010
    Darn, I thought we were past the "Genesis is a copy of the 5 Series, nyah nyah nyah NYAH nyah! (repeat ad infinitum)" stuff.

    Actually I talked about BMW and Audi both. You pointed out awhile back that Hyundai has failed to make inroads in the luxury market in Europe. But except for MB, other German makes have a relatively short history for luxury offerings outside of Europe. So going back 75-80 years, as you said, for the "Germans", it was really one company, MB, with any kind of luxury market presence outside of Germany.

    Conclusion: if you think it will take Hyundai 75 years to get where MB et. al. are today--think again.
  • sweendogysweendogy Member Posts: 1,310
    the once ugly cheap duck now is a Fox-- sorry all haters but this car company has done what honda did in the 70-80's but now they went further faster-- the quality and reviews of the cars are up with the majors- if your going to spend 40k for a new car its hard not to look at what this car company brings... I would say the same at 30k 20k and 15k -- you cant say that about many car companies.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    edited August 2010
    The Genesis apes the 5er. Nyah nyah nyah nyah :shades:

    Going back 75-80 years is a completely apples to oranges comparison with the world today. Worldwide import/export en masse of cars, especially highline cars, is almost entirely a postwar ideal (along with modern market segmentation), and it took MB a mere quarter century or so to go from bombed-to-bits factories to being arguably (and easy to argue) the most respected highline brand in the world. Once the mass produced V8 cars were born, the game was over.

    Studying the pre-EU Euro markets might also be handy...MB was a major force in the high end of most of the continent before the war - even having no problem selling cars in England.

    I see no evidence to make me believe that Hyundai will get to be where MB et al are at any time, not in image or product performance. You'll have to conquer the highline market in Europe and many other locations, and build up a history of competition in virtually every form. That star has a lot of value and means a lot to people. Good luck with that.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    Which car is the Fox? I guess one could argue for the Genesis coupe...can't think of anything else ;)

    Hyundai is a "major" in the mass market already.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Going back 75-80 years is a completely apples to oranges comparison with the world today.

    Agreed. But you were the one who brought it up.

    Suppose Hyundai never does equal MB in image or product performance (although I think they have a shot at the latter in time). That still leaves LOTS of room in the luxury market.
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    Doesn't a fully loaded Sonata GLS top off at 28k something when fully loaded? If that is the case, their is very little overlap with the Sonata and the entry-level luxury models from the Japanese, German, and American luxury makes.

    Now the Azera on the other hand would overlap some of those entry-level lux models.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2010
    Today, the Sonata tops out at just over $28k. In a few weeks, when the turbo SE and Limited are available, also the hybrid, the Sonata will easily cross $30k. That overlaps cars such as the TSX, G25, CT 200h, and Mini Cooper (and even today, overlaps all but the G25), and overlaps entry-level cars routinely sold by luxury marques in other countries e.g. the A Class.

    The fact is, many other luxury brands sell "mass market" cars alongside their luxury offerings. But to some here, it's only Hyundai that is committing a sin in doing it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    My initial "75-80 years ago" comment was to say the market today is different than when those Germans built their reputations and competencies. Which will make following suit all the more difficult. They can always fall back on the heritage ideal too - they do it very well already. A trump card that few have, and it seems to work.

    When Hyundai makes performance in everything from F1 cars to stock cars, and are desired for use by everyone from taxi drivers to super-celebs, then the time might be coming.

    There is always some room in the luxury market...people bought Phaetons too. Some people will buy Equus.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2010
    When Hyundai makes performance in everything from F1 cars to stock cars, and are desired for use by everyone from taxi drivers to super-celebs, then the time might be coming.

    Heck, even BMW isn't in F1 anymore. But that is in your mind a requirement for Hyundai to "arrive" in the luxury marketplace? Does that mean BMW's time is passed? :confuse:

    Hyundai is in racing, btw--if that is a requirement. Also in wide use as taxicabs--although I don't know what that has to do with being a player in the luxury market. I expect some super-celebs will be lining up for the Sonata Hybrid--they like to be seen driving around in "green" cars (see: Prius). ;)
  • smarty666smarty666 Member Posts: 1,503
    I didn't realize the turbo and hybrid versions would top off over 30k so if that is the case, then yes, it would intrude into luxury company offerings!

    To me, and I'm finding out with my Max, if they are going to charge prices that go into luxury segment brands, then your better off paying the same amount for the luxury division cause you'll get more value for the same money, ie better service/treatment, better resale, more technology (in some cases), prestige, etc. That is only a generalization of course, b/c the value factor and advantage could change depending on the finance and lease rates/factors between the lux and non-lux automaker.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There's tradeoffs, however. The Sonata is a mid-sized (full-sized inside) sedan, and at $30k would offer 274 hp (also 35 mpg highway), heated leather front & rear, nav, moonroof, high-zoot sound system, etc. For the same money from a luxury brand, you could get:

    * A small hatchback hybrid, basically a restyled Prius with a Lexus badge
    * A small 200 hp sedan (but with nice handling)
    * A mid-sized 218 hp sedan, with a nice interior (also nice handling)
    * A loaded Mini Cooper

    The G25 is probably the best value, IMO, compared to a $30k Sonata Limited 2.0T, although the G25 gives up a lot in power.

    If I were to spend $30k for a sedan, I'd probably go for a Genesis 3.8 (maybe I could get a loyalty rebate) if I bought new, or a lightly used certified car like a G37. But with 2 kids in college and one still at home, plus saving for early retirement, it will be awhile before I buy a $30k anything. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    But BMW was. And MB was in that genre for eons. This stuff doesn't vanish into thin air once the season is finished.

    I never said anything about F1 exclusively, now did I... and BMW competes and has competed in endless other forms of motorsport, and MB has done likewise. This helps build a competent image. Don't forget, MB and BMW being entirely about "luxury" is purely an American invention.

    Hyundai is in racing how, by privately operated rigs in American hillclimbs? Nice start, I guess...but nobody outside of this continent knows it exists.

    Taxicabs alone were never mentioned either. Feel free to post the Sonata celeb images when they come around. Celebs also like hybrids that scream "hybrid".
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Spin spin spin... only digs deeper and deeper into the ground. F1 and taxis were mentioned in the same sentence, with an "and" connecting them. Be sure to look behind you as you are backing up. ;)

    Yes, BMW has decided that F1 is not important to them and to their luxury image. Yet it seems important to you that Hyundai be in F1 racing--and in taxicabs.

    Yes, MB and BMW being entirely about "luxury" is indeed an American invention. And we know from your earlier posts that you want us to consider the global luxury marketplace in this discussion. So I would expect you to agree with Hyundai's approach in selling a full line of cars under the Hyundai brand, since that is what your fav manufacturer, MB, does in most countries.

    If you think Hyundai's racing experience applies only to American hillclimbs, you need to do a little more research.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    edited August 2010
    No spin, no exclusive terms were mentioned. I said "everything from" and mentioned two forms competition - where H competes in any level in almost none. Be sure to gain reading comprehension before dropping the straw man.

    It is nice that you single out BMW for F1...where MB, who H probably deludes itself into believing it equals with the Equus, has been a huge player in that field.

    Hyundai has no sporting image or heritage at all. Virtually nothing. Zilch, zero, nada...while BMW still competes in endless sporting endeavors. Not even as good as apples to oranges here.

    Hyundai doesn't sell a full line, even with the Equus. We'll see when H actually offers a real "full line", and actually sells all of them in varied markets other than the rabidly nationalist homeland and in buy-anything China.

    Which races does Hyundai itself give entry other than the hillclimb and some SCCA stuff many years ago? Please enlighten me.

    Just get over it. I will never see H as equal with the big Germans.

    Oh yeah, and the only way you'll get that Genesis 3.8 for 30K is by buying a year old model. But it's not fair to compare used cars, right?

    A 3 year old S550 and 10K in cash sure has more appeal to me than an Equus...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2010
    Hyundai has no sporting image or heritage at all.

    First, that is untrue. Although it's clearly true wrt your mind.

    Second... what does it have to do with success in the luxury marketplace? Do you suppose potential luxury car buyers have a criterion on their lists, "Must participate in F1 racing"? Or how about, "Cars from this manufacturer must be widely used as taxicabs"? Somehow I don't think either one will show up on anyone's list but yours.

    We can argue all day about what constitutes a "full line". There's no official, single definition of that term. It's clear your definition includes offerings like convertibles (which aren't offered by several players in the luxury market), and maybe humongous SUVs like the gas-guzzling behemoths MB offers. Fine. Hyundai's lineup is sufficiently full for my definition of the word. Let's move on.

    You can do your own research on Hyundai's racing experience--you know how to use google.

    You have a high opinion of the Genesis, however, to think that even a 5% discount is not available from dealers on new ones, while most other luxury cars have huge discounts available. If the Genesis' new car sales prices hold up as strongly as you think they do, that bodes well for their resale value.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    edited August 2010
    What is the Hyundai sporting image and heritage other than the Millen cars and some old SCCA machines? Put up or....well, you know.

    MB and BMW built their rep via competency in a wide range, from industrial use to racing. A tough act to follow.

    No small sporty cars, no open cars, no real highline cars, no super sedans...I didn't know your definition is what this was all about. Thanks. Which maker that competes in the lux market outside of this dumbed down continent doesn't offer an open car?

    Genesis base, for a bottom of the line 3.8 with nothing on it, which may or may not actually exist (it could be like a cloth early LS or a new 5 speed Camry) is 33K. 5% off of this is still a bit over 30K, much more so when you add taxes and/or other fees. It's too early in the model life to predict resale value, this will be seen in reality when the first batch of 3 year lease returns start hitting the lots.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2010
    Why do you expect me to answer a question you can easily answer for yourself with a few clicks?

    Hyundai also has "industrial use" and racing. So not so tough an act to follow. Although some luxury automakers, like MB, are still in F1 racing. But if those luxury buyers don't, as you claim, give a hoot about "Hofmeister kinks", they sure as heck don't care about details of F1 racing. Or taxicabs.

    What do you call the Genesis coupe? Seems like a small sporty car to me. And the Tiburon before that. No open cars? How many convertibles did MB sell last year? How many did Acura sell? Lexus? Infiniti? Lincoln? Cadillac? They seem to get along just fine with few to none convertibles sold. Unless someone is in the market for a luxury convertible, how many have the criterion, "Must make convertibles" on their lists?

    Highline cars? What do you call the Equus? No super sedans? Yeah, Hyundai hasn't crossed the $100k barrier yet, has it? But other automakers do just fine selling in the luxury market w/o a super sedan. Not part of the price of entry, and acceptance--except for you. Although if Hyundai does come out with a super sedan, we know you'll throw up all over it. :P

    Which MB sold in the US lists for under $20k? $30k? Where is their two-door hatch? Four-door hatch? Hmm... not a very full line of vehicles, is it? And... why is YOUR definition any more "correct" than mine? Can you post a link from the official, universal definition of "full line"? If not, it's your opinion vs. mine.

    If you are going to talk pricing of cars, you really should do two minutes of research and find out what the cost of the car is, including rebates. Then take off that 5% dealer discount. BTW, you don't have to guess on things like whether there's any new base Genesis sedans for sale--easily found out via any number of Internet car search sites. You can even put in a ceiling price, e.g. $30,000, and find all the cars with an asking price less than $30,000--before negotiation. And yes, many of those do exist.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Herrrritage! Brrrrreding! I can just smell the musty odor of old leather and grey poupon, and a little port on the chauffeur's breath.

    Frankly, I don't care about 10 or even 5 years ago. Computerized design and manufacturing have changed the game. Any manufacturer can play in today's luxury market if they pay attention to styling and reliability.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    That's cool, but IMO this end of the market does care.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    edited August 2010
    Why can't you name them if it is so easy? Like I said, put up or...

    Being involved with everything from industrial use to supercars is the context here. H does have one end of that. Doing it all, and excelling at it. It's a lot easier to see racing cars and heavy duty use vehicles in every day life than to reference obscure styling themes. I can link any number of youtube ads that show racing and durability, if you'd like. Can't think of any that name the kink.

    The Genesis coupe can be sporty - although many are not, and it is not a small car. Tiburon in large part sold to the middle aged secretary set who also buys Eclipses these days - not too sporty either. Acura, Lexus, Infiniti et al...almost or completely irrelevant outside of NA. And for the few that do sell from those brands, there mere existence helps brand equity, just as the SL has helped MB for more than half a century, and likewise for others.

    Equus? A hard on the eyes unknown entity that as far as I know hasn't sold a single unit outside of the rabidly nationalistic homeland and PRC, which will buy anything with wheels. (well, I guess the terribly bland and unexceptional previous version sold a few in the middle east) The only big player who doesn't have some kind of extreme large sedan is Lexus - who also doesn't sell many cars outside of this beige market....and they do have a nicely enough tuned small car.

    Selling cars in the US is a distraction tangent. Who said the US market is the limit? Others who really play in the high end do have just as good of a lineup elsewhere. My definition is correct because I am not a H fanboy who loudly defends the brand to the death. Why is a link worth anything? I can upload anything I want to the web and make a link, would that be pleasing? The wikipedia mindset is dangerous.

    Show me one example of a new Genesis sedan changing hands for 30K. Do it, or drop it.

    I'll still take that 3 year old S550 plus a pile of cash over an Equus, thanks.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    If you want to go back far enough, there was an American Rolls-Royce:

    At one point in time the venerable prestige Rolls-Royce fine motor cars were made and manufactured in the U.S.A. - the United States of America. However this early example of marketing and production offshore and off home base was doomed to failure.

    A bare six months after the signing of the historic contract between Charles Rolls and Henry Royce the export drive of Rolls-Royce was on its way. Early on in September 1906 Charles Royce was on his way to the United States, taking with him four cars as samples of the company's wares. One of these cars was sold almost as soon as it was unloaded; one went straight away to Texas. The remaining two vehicles served as sales and marketing vehicles - an example of the fine craft and attention to detail that the company become world famous and known for. One of the cars was kept on the road as a demonstration model, while the other was put on display at the New York Auto Show. That first appearance at the auto show was a great success for Rolls Royce as well: an additional four orders were taken for new cars. As well an American distributor jumped to the plate.

    Business grew for Rolls- Royce in America to the point that in the 12 month period before the beginning of the First World War, fully 100 vehicles were sold. By this time the owners and management of the firm had come to the conclusion of the great sales potential for Rolls-Royce motorcars in the United States. Judged on current trends and market sales information and experience, they came to the conclusion that the American market for their fine products was larger and richer than anything that they could expect to attain in their home market and current manufacturing domain - England. Import restrictions and tariffs would be the limiting factor for Rolls-Royce in terms of both added costs to the final price of the car to American consumers, who would have to absorb the import tariffs on their vehicles and the profitability of Rolls-Royce in America.

    The die was cast. As promptly as possible American manufacturing facilities were set up. This was to be a full Rolls-Royce manufacturing facility in America. A factory itself was purchased in Springfield Massachusetts. Manufacturing was promptly commenced under the direct supervision of none other than Henry Royce himself. Production was done mainly by local workers, aided and supervised by a fleet of 50 tradesmen from the British Derby factory itself. These British workers actually physically immigrated to America permanently with their families as well.

    Production at this Springfield plant commenced in 1921 with Rolls-Royce firmly stating that the product from this auto plant would be the equal of anything built at the home plant located at Derby England. The plan was that parts would be shipped and assembled in the US with custom made coachwork made by existing prestigious American firms. Interestingly enough over time the number of items made locally in the US, as opposed to Britain, began to actually increase, not decrease. However the consistency of the product, in terms of product line and actual product began to deviate from the strict British made product. Only the first 25 rolling chassis were actually identical to the Derby England factory items. As time went on there were more and more deviations from the strict British product. Some of this may be due to the personal preferences and procedures of the different local American coachbuilders. After each was a premium established firms with distinct products, styles and methods previously. Some was due to the requests from the American customers, their ability to individualize and personalize their American made car to their individual preferences and styles.

    What did in the American Roll-Royce? For one thing cost. Substantial costs were incurred in converting the cars from right hand British drive to left hand American. As a result of the increased costs incurred, the selling price of these American made Rolls-Royces was not nearly as competitive to other automotive products available on the U.S. market for prestige automotive products. Next the primary U.S. coachmaker for Rolls-Royce, the Brewster Coachbuilding firm, fell into financial difficulties. Then along came the 1929 stock market crash. The American Rolls-Royce might of continued save for one major marketing blunder. The British parent firm introduced a dynamite model - the Phantom, The car was not made in the US nor even made available, by import of 100 cars, till a year later. The car had great reception with the prestige auto market in the USA. However by the time it was decided to manufacture this hit product to meet the American demand the actual Phantom model was replaced by an ultra high tech and sophisticated model - The Phantom II. With the retooling costs incurred the calculation was that each American Rolls-Royce Phantom II car unit produced and sold would cost the company an astounding 1 million to produce in comparison to the 1929 customer price threshold for luxury prestige automobiles of only $ 20,000.

    The fate of Rolls-Royce American manufactured products was sealed. The firm honored the last 200 orders for their cars. By 1935 these orders were completed and delivered to their customers.

    That was the ending of the Rolls-Royce experiment of producing an American made prestige car product.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Also in wide use as taxicabs--although I don't know what that has to do with being a player in the luxury market.

    image

    The Ultimate Driving Machine!
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Re easy... using google is easy. But since you question the worth of web links in general, I don't know why you keep asking me to post links. :surprise:

    Equus exists. Your opinion of its looks is immaterial to its overall prospects in the worldwide luxury market. The market will sort that out over time.

    No one said the US market is the limit. But it is a major market for luxury cars. One that automakers who attack that market must have success in to be successful overall. China and Japan are also major markets for luxury cars. And of course, Europe. But Europe isn't the only market.

    Why is the opinion of an MB fanboy more "correct" than anyone elses? :confuse:

    As I pointed out, it's easy to check online car search services to find cars with asking prices under a specific threshold. If a dealer publicly offers a car such as a Genesis for under $30k, before negotiation (and there's many examples of this out there, easy to find), it's a sure bet there's some changing hands for under $30k, before T&L at least.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    After reading their final report of the long term Genesis I get the feeling the reason it wasn't choosen as the MT car of year 2009 was their editors may have been bias against Hyundai. They said that at the begining their staff was skeptical of the Genesis but won many of them over and was always in demand to be driven. The only really negative thing was the suspension issue Perhaps that bias cost the Genesis the award. In the long run which automobile will people remember in the future, the Genesis or the Nissan GT R(still a hot car)?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think the real reason the Genesis wasn't the 2009 MT COTY is that the winner was the $75,000 GT-R. Coming in 2nd to a car like that isn't too shabby, IMO. MT also picked the 2010 Sonata I4 2nd in a field of 10 mid-sized cars, and said if price was any consideration (duh!), it would be first. (The top car was the much more expensive Passat.) So I don't think MT has any particular bias against Hyundai.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    I do think that if the Genesis was made by an American car company it would have been hands down winner!
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Exactly what end is "this end"?
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    No Sonata today is priced under $20k

    Oh really - and you're supposed to be the H fanboy....
    so I guess the MT GLS at an MSRP Of $19195.00 (+720.00 transportation) is all a misprint? Or that the 2010 models (the 74000 sold) started at $18.7 WITH a $2500.00 rebate AND free financing. The AT model is only a coupla hundred more.
    So what part of those 74000 Sonatas that you want to ignore, or maybe you'll just concede the point that Hyundai is simply a mass market brand that obviously deals in the lower extremes of the market. A place where Hyundai is and the true luxury brands certainly aren't! Hyundai will never be a player in the so called luxury market as long as it is true that a majority of its sales are below $20k (or so).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    edited August 2010
    The high end - S/LS/A8/7er etc. and higher.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    It's a conspiracy!
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    LOL@Lemko! Man, those old boats were made of STEEL! I would love to have one, with modern Japanese or Korean V8, plenty of sound deadening, and re-worked interior to make it Lexus-like. My friends would laugh at me until they took a ride. ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    About 105 years ago, there was also an "American Mercedes", using the exact same parts as a German car, just assembled in the US to avoid duties.

    image

    I wonder if RR will ever do it again, as MB has done it again and will continue it to dodge inflating costs and potential other issues in Europe.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    edited August 2010
    I just don't go for wikipedia, but other sources can be fine. I'd love to see some kind of road racer or even rally version of a Genesis sedan, now that actually would be cool. But as it is, the only Hyundai competition motoring I can find is the Millen Genesis, some old SCCA Tiburons, and a few rally cars almost a decade ago. No storied competition like some of the big worldwide players use to build a halo.

    My opinion of Equus styling isn't alone in its sentiments. The styling will be a hindrance, especially if H dares to use the defective market positioning it has employed elsewhere with the 40K Euro + Grandeur (to which the Equus bears a strong resemblance).

    I can admit to MB faults, there are many MB I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole, I believe it is a firm (like most other German firms) very able to make mistakes. Some here don't seem to believe the same about the swoopy H. A fanboy can be a realist too. Some are...some are not.

    Any dealer website links of sub-30K Genesis?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Last time I checked, Nissan isn't an American car company, and it took the 2009 MT COTY. Hyundai not being an American car company had nothing to do with the Genesis taking 2nd, IMO. And I think there is an excellent chance MT will name the Sonata the 2011 COTY. Check back in January and we'll see.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    See if you can find a GLS stick Sonata, anywhere, without floor mats or any other options. If not, the lowest-priced Sonata available today is $20,015. Even if you can find a car w/o floor mats, it's $19,915. See how many of those sub-$20k Sonatas you can find. I have yet to see a stick Sonata of any kind. If you want to deduct a few Sonatas from the figures to allow for those rare base Sonata sticks w/o floor mats, go ahead. The numbers are still way under the "half or more" you asserted. I provided the numbers to prove it.

    As long as competitors sell cars like the A Class, GT 200h, and TSX which fall into the same price range as these "mass market" cars from Hyundai, I don't see how you can say the "true" luxury brands aren't in this same place as Hyundai.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Halos... that is exactly Hyundai's strategy with the Genesis and now the Equus--use them as halos for the entire brand. Not many people seem to understand that, however.

    Mistakes... I've been pretty hard on Hyundai on some things over the past 10 years, and wasn't shy about ranting about those things in Town Hall. When you find a perfect car company, let us know so we can all go buy one of their products.

    www.cars.com, new cars, Hyundai Genesis, max price $30,000, max search radius, sort by price ascending.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    16 out of last 20 years were american made autos however 4 of last 6 were imports I'd they were a bit bias towards american autos over the years even when the quality wasn't there
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    I don't know if the revised E60 and a big odd luxobarge alone will build the halo. I can understand someone thinking so, but I don't believe it's enough.

    It seems implying that H might not be perfect in these conquer the world upmarket aspirations isn't a tolerated viewpoint. Perfect company...from a profit and image maintenance standpoint, probably Porsche.

    I took your search suggestion...one I clicked on from a local dealer (in the color combo I would choose, blue with a creme-beige interior) noted that price was after military, college grad, and lease return rebates. Does anyone on the planet actually qualify for those consecutively? Seeing as a banner ad on the side was claiming "starting at $33,000" as I was viewing cars scraping under 30K, seemed kind of funny.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2010
    Do you really think Hyundai will call it a day with the Genesis and Equus? I don't. But they're a start. As for toleration, rational thought and logic are always tolerable.

    You are making the Genesis pricing thing WAY too difficult. Let me make it easier for you:

    Genesis 3.8: $33,000 before options - search on those.
    Current rebate (may vary by state/region): $1500 loyalty OR $1500 conquest
    That's $31,500 before any kind of discount by the dealer. It would take less than a 5% discount to get below $30,000 + T&L.

    I'll make it even easier for you, just so we can move past this: go to the web site for Fitzmall (url is obvious, against policy to post it here), and search for Genesis "4dr sedan V6". I count 13 as of right now listed for under $30k. And with Fitzmall, they don't play the military/student/total eclipse of the moon rebate game--their prices include destination and any generally available rebates. That's 13 from one dealer group (3 locations out East). Several of these cars are even your fav color: blue/beige. Does that do it for you? Can we move on now?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    edited August 2010
    What are they going to do to top those cars, other than redesigns and new generations? As IMO they will have to...

    Rational thought and logic can be subjective...some don't seem to think questioning design themes and brand strategy is rational or logical, some do.

    I actually saw one at Fitzmall for under 29K....what's up with that? How are these cars actually being sold at a profit, or is H doing what Lexus did 20 years ago? Excuse my ignorance, there's no group like Fitzmall in my neck of the woods.

    But really, lighten up on the rhetoric, you are here representing the beloved swoopy H and putting forth a sour tone would make a German exec green with envy :shades: ...it doesn't look nice. If you want to move on, just don't reply to me. We'll never see eye to eye on everything.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited August 2010
    It's ok to link to Fitzmall (unless you are Fitz and are touting it, lol). They do have good prices it seems - I check their Subaru prices now and then and tried to get my sister in VA to go over, but she's too far away from one of their stores. Only thing I can figure is that they live off holdback.

    (Dave Smith up in Kellogg ID may be the nearest thing we have out West, if you want a GM or Chrysler. But it looks like they quit posting prices online).
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How about ADDING MODELS? e.g. luxury coupe (or a convertible, if they want to go out of their way to win you as a customer), a small sporty sedan to slot under the Genesis, a couple of SUVs... there's a LOT of room for growth in the future. Then maybe Hyundai will meet your definition of a "full line" carmaker. Uhh... probably not.

    I think questioning exterior design is highly subjective. I think it's way too subjective to beat on constantly as a reason an automaker won't have room in the luxury market, especially since it's clear other people find the designs attractive.

    You didn't look very hard if you saw ONE Genesis for under $29k--there were several. But your comment about selling at a profit is really funny, IMO. First, you claim none will sell for a relatively modest discount. Then you worry about whether they are being sold at a profit. Don't you see the huge discounts and lease specials being offered by other automakers? There's room to discount with luxury cars, and still turn a profit.

    Where do you live? I thought you lived on the East coast. Very short flight or even a nice drive to Fitzmall. Drive a little, save a lot. And there's other dealers who offer discounts like that. Recall you asked me to provide ONE. Just one. I'm done. Please don't ask again for someone to provide you with info that you have no interest in seeing--it's really a big waste of time for everyone concerned.

    Lighten up the rhetoric... LOL. That's a good one, thanks for the day-brightener. :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    Does H have any legit plans for a sporty coupe, an open car, or a sports sedan? Really?

    The fact that H has apparently toned down the tasteless KDM style bling on the Equus shows that many elements of the design were not attractive, and the rest is just beige. At least H actually made the E60 look better in its mimic design.

    I don't see anyone else selling cars of that size and feature content (although a base Genesis isn't as special) for that money. It makes one wonder what is subsidizing what. And even on the H website, the Genesis is a "premium" car.

    I live on the west coast. I've never seen a Fitzmall in person. Thanks for the links, that group should expand out here.

    I will ask for what I please, you can't prevent it, just as you don't have to answer. As I have told you many times in the past, if you do not like my posts, you can ignore them. No hard feelings, no harm done.

    Man, that 3 year old S550 and 10K in cash sure looks nicer than an Equus.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Even if you can find a car w/o floor mats, it's $19,915.

    oh so I guess there is such a thing as a sub $20k Hyundai after all :surprise: - amazing that a "Hyundai basher' like myself (?) would have to educate you - and even then we are not talking about actual drive out prices and those often legendary discounts that Hyundai has had to historically float to sell its cars at all. The fact is of those 74000 Sonatas (that you chose to ignore) sold in 2010 (yeah the ones with the $18k sticker and the rebate etc I mentioned, the drive out is more likely in the 15s not the 20s. Or let's add back your silly floor mats, AT, some power and a stereo upgrade and buy that 2010 for a whole $16-17k! Think we have put a BIG dent in that 74000 yet? All I said what that half of what's at a Hyundai dealer sells for sub $20k and your sales figures confirm that.
    I have no idea what the product mix looks like on a Sonata, google your butt off if you'd like, but this is also NOT THE POINT.
    The point is that Hyundai (just like many many other mass market mfgrs) sells many of its products at much lower price points than any mfgr even remotely considered 'luxury'. Which is one of the problems with somebody like Hyundai finding 'room'.
    If you can't understand or admit that - then I guess you really do have a bad case of fanboy-itis.
    Hyundai has become an able competitor to those other J3 mfgrs and has even left the D3 folks in the dust IMO, the Sonata has recently become a real alternative to the Camcordimas, and lastly the Genesis is seemingly a legit choice to those other upscale sedans it competes with. No more or less, also quite an accomplishment, but let's not pretend anybody or anything is something they plainly are not.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Hard to fathom why you care how far the Fitzmall Hyundai dealerships are from you, when you've been clear you aren't in the market for a new car, and certainly not a Hyundai.

    Probably the closest thing to the Genesis 3.8 in price and feature content is the G37 (lease price $349/month vs. $399 for base Genesis), and in the FWD sedan space the Avalon and Maxima. G25 is cheaper still, but significantly less oomph than the Genesis. However, it's not the price I was referring to, but the discount. I thought that is what you were harping about with your comment on profits. You seem shocked that Fitzmall can offer about $4000 off a base Genesis, $1500 of which is a factory rebate. But what discounts are available on other luxury sedans? Hint: big ones. Why? Because there's big markups on them, and luxury vehicles in general aren't selling all that well right now.

    Hope you enjoy that used S550, when you buy it.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited August 2010
    oh so I guess there is such a thing as a sub $20k Hyundai after all :surprise:

    Why the surprise? That point was never in question. What I questioned was your assertion that half or more of Hyundais sitting on dealer lots are priced at under $20k. You didn't say "sells for"--until now.

    We are talking present tense here, i.e. CY 2010. The 2010 Sonatas were all but gone by January. Almost all Sonatas sold in CY 2010 were the 2011 models. If you have facts to the contrary, please share.

    The point is that Hyundai (just like many many other mass market mfgrs) sells many of its products at much lower price points than any mfgr even remotely considered 'luxury'.

    That is true in the US, if you don't consider manufacturers such as Toyota and Nissan who have a separate luxury brand. But not necessarily true in other parts of the world. For example, what is the mix in Europe for automakers such as BMW and MB for "mass market" cars vs. luxury cars? What is the mix in Japan, where Toyota sells both luxury cars and mass market cars under one brand? I don't have those figures at hand, but maybe you do since you have made the statement I quoted above, so I assume have some factual basis for it. As Mr. Fintail likes to remind us, the luxury market is not just the US.

    So, what if Hyundai sells, today, 1/3 of its vehicles below the $20k price point? How does that impact their ability to make room in the luxury market? Does it not provide Hyundai with the ability to: 1) grab buyers at almost any price point, and offer them alternatives as they age and their incomes increase; 2) use their higher-end offerings as a "halo" to uplift the entire brand, allowing the uplift in pricing that has occurred over the past few years; 3) maintain a strong financial position, by offering a variety of vehicles under a single dealer/distribution/marketing network (and Hyundai is today the most profitable car company)?

    I don't think making points like those is being a "fanboy." I think it's looking at what Hyundai is doing, and trying to do, and realizing that they are approaching the luxury market in some ways unlike what others have done before them. And they have had some early success. Are they the equal of the likes of MB, BMW, Lexus? Ha ha ha, certainly not! They have a long ways to go to get close to that point. But have they carved out some room in the luxury market, and will they continue to carve out more room in the coming years? I think the answer is "yes."
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,096
    Hard to fathom why someone cares what I think about a distant dealership group. I could easily ask why someone who owns an old Sonata and a few cheapo cars cares so much about the luxury market when they don't appear to have any interest in driving such a car either new or used. Unless of course the old Sonata is some kind of Audi knockoff...right.

    Lease price and MSRP aren't always parallel, lots of subsidization out there. And I am shocked the new and amazing Genesis is being discounted...has the hype calmed down? Luxury vehicles aren't selling? BMW and MB are having very good sales right now.

    I'd probably buy an E63 before an S, the latter is a little big for my tastes. And these days I can get a 3 year old E63 for about the price of a new loaded Genesis :shades:
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,852
    Lease price and MSRP aren't always parallel, lots of subsidization out there. And I am shocked the new and amazing Genesis is being discounted...has the hype calmed down?

    There was the case even over a year ago when I got mine! I was around 1300 or so under invoice (1000 lease cash) and the MF on the lease was .0006 (1.44%) that is pretty heavily subsidized if you ask me.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

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