Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

jimbres · February 2011

BTW, the picture is of a 1980 model.

I agree with Fin here. If you wanted to post a more representative picture of the W116 generation S-class, you could have picked one of the '72 model year - before the 5-mph bumper mandate took effect. I'm old enough to have been of driving age back then, & I recall that it took the better part of a decade for most car manufacturers to figure out how to deal gracefully with that reg.

Easy to put features like ABS and ESC on a luxury car that costs $40k+; harder to provide those important features at economy-car prices, so more people can benefit from them.

Agreed, but if you look back at the history of automotive development, you'll see that important new features typically debut on luxury cars & then work their way down to mass-market vehicles. The best & earliest example of this is self-starting, which was introduced on the 1912 Cadillac but which was universally standard in North America by the early 20s. So Hyundai is following a century-old tradition in this respect.

When we were shopping for a new car for my wife in '99, one of our requirements was ESC. At that time, the least expensive car that offered it as an option was the $33K Lexus ES 300. But by 2005, when I was shopping for a compact SUV, ESC was standard on the cheapest Honda CR-V.

Again, the trickle-down effect is definitely at work in the auto industry.

jimbres · February 2011

If you're asking about the Imperial, the answer is that ABS was available to any prospective buyer as an option. My hunch is that comparatively few buyers actually chose it - safety was a hard sell back then - but it was there in the sales literature, along with tufted upholstery & 8-track stereo, for anyone willing to pay for it. (I actually turned up a copy of a sales brochure from that year on the Web, but I can't find the link right now.) This wasn't a limited-production experiment.

backy · February 2011

Fintail asked for a picture. Any picture. I gave him one. I can't help it if MB's great engineers can't figure out how to make a 5 mph bumper that looks good. Even my cheapo 1976 Corolla had 5 mph bumpers that looked better than that. (And they worked great, also!)

Some trickle-down is due to mandate, e.g. ESC will be required soon on every new car sold in the USA. Even though we are not part of the "real world." (wink)

backy · February 2011

There are virtually no differences between a W116 made in 1972 and one made in 1979...

That's one benefit of more competition in the luxury market--first by the Japanese, and now by Hyundai. MB had to start accelerating improvements in their lineup. 8 years with virtually no differences? Talk about "waiting"...

Which Chinese car did the first Equus copy?

Since you first brought up "mainstream" cars in this discussion, I thought it would be OK to follow your lead. BTW, MB talks about Smart sales in their reports on Mercedes Benz sales... so they at least consider Smart cars to be part of Mercedes Benz.

So MB invented 4 wheel brakes? Too bad they didn't learn how to make reliable braking systems, to avoid recalling 1.3 million cars a few years ago. Almost all the innovations you listed were invented many years ago. Hyundai didn't create its own first car until 1975. In the past 20 years, Hyundai Motor Company has over 1500 patents. Patents are one indicator of innovation. How many does MB have in that time?

jimbres · February 2011

Even my cheapo 1976 Corolla had 5 mph bumpers that looked better than that.

IIRC, that generation of Corolla was designed after the 5-mph mandate took effect, so that the stylists could design around it. (My wife had a Toyota Corona of that vintage.)

Re trickle-down: the ESC mandate in this country didn't kick in until '09 & won't apply across the board until next year, so it doesn't explain why ESC became much more widely available between, say, the mid-90s & the mid-2000s. I'll stick to my earlier explanation: the good stuff almost always debuts on high-line vehicles & then works its way down market. This also applies to non-safety features such as A/C (introduced on the '40 Packard) & power steering (introduced in '51 on the Chrysler Imperial & a year later on the Cadillac).

fintail · February 2011

I wonder if you checked that box, you'd actually receive what you ordered, or would just be given a story. I've read of those cars too, but never seen one - kind of like an automotive unicorn (or for a fuselage Chrysler, Loch Ness Monster :shades: )

There were airbag GM fullsize cars built mainly around 1973-74 as well, but production was almost invisible and any survivors are almost museum pieces now.

fintail · February 2011

Did any company have a good looking 5mph bumper? Many American cars had them that looked like chrome railroad ties, silly and ridiculous That Corolla had no styling at all, so nothing to mess up.

And now that bumper standard is long gone, deemed useless.

fintail · February 2011

Or when a car is so ahead of the pack when introduced, and the pack is unable to catch up , that there's no need to jump again for some time. From model years 1973-91, there were only 2 kinds of S-class. That's something.

I never said that hoary first Equus was a copy of a Chinese car. It is a copy in the Chinese copycar school of thought. You could say it was a Geely and nobody would doubt it. Unsuitable for the first world.

I don't recall any MBs losing brakes and actually being a problem, only electrical glitches - which were remedied. Sounds like a red herring. Now MB is advancing in all metrics yet again. Competition does improve the breed, even if there are stumbling blocks.

Patents and useful tech are not one in the same. You drive a modern car today in some part because of MB innovation. I have a nearly 50 year old car with fuel injection, disc brakes, crumple zones, 4 speed automatic, and so on...it led. And the brand will continue to advance. Without someone starting at the top, this wouldn't work to other vehicle classes. It's worked that way for over 100 years.

backy · February 2011

In the 70s, the Corolla was designed for the Japanese market... not the US market. Hence the 5 mph bumpers were a retrofit to the basic design. Toyota just managed to do it a little better than others.

I agree with the trickle-down concept; I was simply pointing out that trickle-down is sometimes accelerated by government mandate.

backy · February 2011

You mean, deemed too expensive to implement by automakers. Probably too much weight involved also. I wish that 5 mph bumper standard were still in place. Ridiculous how much damage can be done when someone hits your bumper at a very low speed.

But that's another discussion...

jimbres · February 2011

I've been under the (possibly erroneous) impression that the 5 mph standard is still in effect. If I'm wrong, which has been known to happen, when was the regulation rescinded?

backy · February 2011

Ah, so do you believe that because companies like MB have a head-start in the luxury market, they are immune to being overtaken by someone else? Someone who might innovate at a faster pace, maybe?

Look up Engineering Research Associates if you have time. They created the first commercially-produced electronic computer in 1950. How many computers do they make now?

Since '91, would you say MB models are being rolled out slower, faster, or at about the same pace as before? (Note: Lexus came to the US in 1989.)

backy · February 2011

Quite a long time ago. (frown)

tjc78 · February 2011

In the mail, I received a promo kit for the Equus. It included a wine stopper with an Equus logo on it. I guess Hyundai is trying to get the message out to Genesis owners.

jimbres · February 2011

You're right. Thanks to Google, I just learned (or remembered) that the standard was watered down in 1982 to 2.5 mph.

backy · February 2011

Is this logo just the word "Equus", or is there some kind of emblem ala the Genesis emblem?

Now, the complete bottle of wine would have been much more appreciated, eh? (wink) Maybe some Grey Poupon with that.

fintail · February 2011

If people could drive/park properly, it wouldn't be a problem. I've never damaged a bumper in my driving life.

I bet I could total a modern car with the bumpers on my fintail - which predate any ridiculous American regulations (which eventually died off assumedly because the benefit wasn't worth it)

stever · February 2011

I think the bumper standards were lobbied away by the automakers but the Insurance Institute isn't real happy about it (I think it's a pretty pitiful "standard" too). There's still the bumper mismatch issue too.

fintail · February 2011

Moot point, nobody is innovating at a faster pace. Or let me guess, making the next best previous gen 5er imitation is innovation.

Cars and industrial computers...got any horse breeding farms to compare next? Maybe a mattress factory or a brick foundry?

MB is pretty much at the same pace as before. Maybe marginally faster updates, but the entire market is behaving the same. The highline Germans still seem to get more lifespan out of platforms than others - because they are ahead of the pace when new. Lexus has almost only impacted the Germans in the US, it is a minor entity elsewhere.

fintail · February 2011

Of course the IIHS isn't happy, they aren't happy with anything that has a potential to impact profits for their rather criminal industry.

stever · February 2011

I'm not crazy about the idea of bumping into a pole and having to replace my entire bumper (or worse, front clip).

fintail · February 2011

Don't hit the pole then :shades:

Rest of the world didn't seem to have issues with the old bumpers. In the 70s bumper design on foreign and domestic cars both became pretty horrible.

stever · February 2011

I'm not the world's best driver and need all the help I can get. The backup sensor on the rental LaCrosse in Chicago a couple of years ago likely saved me a couple of grand.

fintail · February 2011

Parking sensors are a good idea. Cameras are going to be mandated for new cars pretty soon too aren't they?

stever · February 2011

The backup cameras are proposed for 2014. I don't know why the beep gizmos couldn't work as well though. Aftermarket sensors aren't that expensive these days, but they are like aftermarket car alarms or remote starts. Two years after you install them, your fobs stop working and your hazards come on at 2 am. :P

Some GPSs come with a backup camera package that will flip the rear camera on when you shift into reverse.

backy · February 2011

Lexus has almost only impacted the Germans in the US, it is a minor entity elsewhere.

Really? Then why would a top BMW exec from BMW Australia have told the press in 2007 that BMW has only two competitors in Australia, and that one comes from Stuttgart, and one from Japan. I don't think he meant Suzuki.

Fortunately for the European automakers, it appears they take the Asian automakers seriously. I would be willing to bet the Euro car companies are watching Hyundai closely, to ensure they don't sneak up on them. Being first to market is no guarantee of future primacy. It's the same in autos as it is in computers, or... mattresses.

That Azera must be on a great platform... it'll be out almost 7 years before the new one gets here. Pretty long lifespan. Maybe Hyundai is trying to emulate the highline Germans there.

fintail · February 2011

Australia, about the same population as Texas. Woohoo, a real maker or breaker. You must just be googling away right now.

So long as Hyundai designs look as they do (I won't even get into driving sensations), the Germans have nothing to worry about in the global market.

Was the Azera even seriously marketed? Does it have any performance or prestige? Does it even really exist? Was it ever a leader? Maybe H simply had other things on which to spend their money. It doesn't matter.

fintail · February 2011

Cameras are lazier, which means people will want them. You don't have to think.

Sensors have been popular in Europe for ages - seen on virtually large cars now...from my experience driving there, they are a godsend in anything but the smallest car.

crkyolfrt · February 2011

I would think a sensor ssystem would be safer in snowy climates that draft snow and dusty road dust over the camera lens.

backy · February 2011

Last time I heard, Australia was not a part of the USA. (wink)

Was the Azera even seriously marketed?

Not that I saw. I am sure that has something to do with its poor sales. At least now that the Sonata no longer offers a V6, there is more room for model differentiation. I would question why Hyundai even needs the Azera, when the Genesis 3.8 starts for only a little more. But maybe they see the Taurus, Maxima, and Avalon, and want a bigger piece of that pie.

Given your love for the styling of that 1970s MB, I can see why you don't like Hyundai's styling: there's more than straight lines and right angles. But based on professional reviews, there's lots of people who like Hyundai's styling.

crkyolfrt · February 2011

"Professional reviews"
buying into 'fluidic sculpture' or whatever they call it, haha

'Professional' reviewers are no better at judging what looks good, any more than the average Joe up the street. It is merely opinion.
And besides, they are paid yes-men until the next new and supposedly improved car-friday that comes along. That old Benz has a very tidy, timeless, classy look that STOOD the test of time. In order to stand the test of time, you have to have lots of it behind you..if you get my drift?

I wish I had one of those old sleds rust free right now. I'd slip some inline 6 diesel into it with stick. And enjoy, ride, handling, space, visibility, safety and character. Character is something that Sonata will never have....not even if you dipped the entire car in gold.. (IMO)

fintail · February 2011

Australia is Arkansas with a beach :shades:

Why would a company choose not to market a product? I've never read that the Azera was really bad, it was just very invisible. I was thinking the same about the V6 Genesis...why spend nearly the same on an Azera when you can get a better car for barely more. I bet that's reason behind it. But no matter, an Azera was not a luxury car, even if clueless suits priced it high in some places or if some bought and paid for writers fawn over it.

Actually, I prefer 1980s MB. No imitation designs or pointless swoops, just timeless design.

toye · February 2011

Not only did I get an "Equus wine opener" but I recieved a bottle of Equus wine as well it is a red wine from Sonoma County Calif from my local Hyundai dealer

backy · February 2011

Let me put it this way: I'll accept several consistent professional auto reviewer opinions about a car before I'll accept the opinion of one person who has an obvious bias for or against the company that produced the car.

The Fairmont has similar lines to that old Benz. I would not say it has a timeless and classy look that has stood the test of time. They are both boxes, devoid of any originality save their grilles, which reflect their brands. The grille of the Benz does look nicer than that of the Fairmont, however.

backy · February 2011

Why would a company choose not to market a product?

Have you heard of Hyundai's "24 x 7? How about "24 x 7 V2.0"? When a company almost completely refreshes its models within 2 years--and Hyundai has done this twice since 2005--not all of the vehicles will get the star treatment from marketing. The big winners are the big volume vehicles like Sonata, Elantra, and Santa Fe, and the ones that are putting the "halo" around the Hyundai brand: Genesis and Equus. Azera gets the leftover marketing money. Maybe Hyundai will push the new one more. We'll see.

crkyolfrt · February 2011

Since you brought it up, I guess I will go ahead and point out that it is obvious to most of us that your bias "for" Hyundai is evident in every thread on this site.

I am still trying to get my head around your using Fairmont and Benz in the same context of anything. I suppose if aesthetics is what (and is the only thing) floats your boat then you could have also included so many other cars; like rear wheel drive Volvos, hell FTM even the 850's, circa 80's Chev Caprice's, Lada's, BMW 2002's etc etc. There is so much more than aesthetics though. Do I even have to be pointing this out? The seat in that Benz has support and comfort with longevity. The seat in a Fairmont has neither. I can't begin to point out how ridiculous and insulting your comparo is. But it was meant to be ridiculously degrading wasn't it?

When you say they are devoid of any originality, I can't agree with this either. A silhouette is a good test of originality. The Ford was a box, the Benz was not. A box by its very definition has squared corners. In looking at a silhouette of each, which of those two cars would be identifiable by squared corners vs rounded over corners? Pick an angle...any angle.

If this comparison were people, your insolence towards MB and using Hyundai as some sort of judgement scale, you would be claiming that an 80 year old great grandfather deserved no more credit for hand forging a splitting axe, than his 10 year old great grandson for pushing the lever of a log splitter. Of course things evolve, but you are comparing a copy cat versus and original inventor. Without the original, there would be nothing to copy.

But to show you I am not unfairly biased towards any brand, (other than my boycott towards Ford since 1990) and you would know this if you had read even a tenth of my posts, I will go on record for giving Hyundai credit for a small but thoughtful idea that, while not original, the location was original to my mind. And that is when I sat in the first Excel hatchback and realized they had created an intermittent position for the rear hatch wiper. I had thought to myself many times that someone (Honda surely??) would have done it first, but no. Hyundai copied the idea, and had the foresight to realize that offering it on the rear wiper, gives them that low cost bling that so many with shallow characters are attracted to. Charge dollars for bells and whistles that cost them nickels. Now FF to 2011 and they are doing it with 'must have' trinkets like USB's and iPod connectors..
FWIW, I would have a lot more respect for companies like Hyundai and Kia, if the very warranties they use to help draw in sales, lacked so much fine print. I can't tell you the number of times I have read and also chatted with new Hyundai owners, that foundf out long after their purchase, that that 'great' wty that they perceived as added value when it came time to resell, didn't apply. Or that in order for it to not default, you have to have every little (frequent) service performed by them, or else risk denial of a claim later.

Be careful though, one day you will wake up and they will OWN you.

fintail · February 2011

I think you're thinking of the Granada, which even had a famous marketing campaign comparing it to period MB. But, the MB predates the Ford by several years, and it was Ford playing off the pretentious ideals of the 70s in that campaign. No reasonable person would confuse the cars. One was a leader in many facets during its day, one was just a volume model middle class sedan. Most old MB eventually get some kind of cult following. That isn't for no reason.

Professional auto reviewers on this continent don't want to offend advertisers, first and foremost.

fintail · February 2011

Azera was the highest model once, but received almost no attention. It must have cost something to develop (although maybe not a fortune)...why not at least try?

For all we know, the new one won't even be sold here, and I could understand why. It'll have to either be bargained price, or it's a sign Genesis prices will rise.

tjc78 · February 2011

Is this logo just the word "Equus", or is there some kind of emblem ala the Genesis emblem?

Here is what they sent, please excuse the crappy cell phone picture.

backy · February 2011

You are mistaking experience and knowledge in a topic and a desire to see a fact-based, fair discussion as bias. Read through my posts here and you'll see I never initiate anything negative against MB. I have great respect for MB and its vehicles. But I do respond to some posts related to MB and other luxury automakers that describes them in what I think is an inaccurate light. For example, when someone paints MB as being perfect in every way, and attacks other car companies (like Hyundai) for traits that can be attributed to MB, I think that deserves a response to set the record straight.

An example: you made some inaccurate statements in your post. For example, you said "... you have to have every little (frequent) service performed by them (Hyundai), or else risk denial of a claim later." That is absolutely false. It is also illegal, for Hyundai or any car company to deny a warranty claim because its dealers did not perform the required services on a car. Those services can be performed by anyone with the skill to do it, as long as there is some record e.g. parts receipt of the work being done.

If you don't like that, please skip past my posts.

As for MB's long history in the development of the automobile, yes, they have a long and storied history there. But you know what? At the end of the day, when I go out and buy a car, do you know how much that history helps me, by itself? That plus a buck or two gets me a cup of coffee. How much did it help IBM that they invented the "PC"? They are selling tons of them today, yes? No. They don't even make PCs any more. And when they were selling them, they were no better than those from companies like Lenovo that started in the PC business much later. (In fact, Lenovo now owns IBM's former PC business.)

So I'd rather look at the end product, at what the public can buy, vs. history. And today, MB has superior product to Hyuundai in the luxury market. I don't think anyone is disputing that fact. I think there is a big difference of opinion here as to whether Hyundai will ever challenge the European automakers in the luxury market. I happen to think they will do that in time. Might take 5, 10 years or more. But I think it will happen.

BTW... no car company does or can "own" me. If you check my profile you'll see I have owned cars from many, many brands over the years. I own cars from 3 auto companies right now. Brand means nothing to me. What is important to me is, does the vehicle meet my requirements?

But to show you I am not unfairly biased towards any brand, (other than my boycott towards Ford since 1990)...

LOL! Thanks for the early morning chuckle!

backy · February 2011

Actually I expect the first Azera didn't take much to develop. It was based on the Gen 4 Sonata platform and its engines (with the 3.3L bored out to 3.8L and used in other applications). I do recall some marketing around the time of its launch, but at the same time or right after that came the launch of a new Accent sedan and hatch, a new Santa Fe, the all-new Veracruz, and then a new Elantra.

Anyway, the arrival of the new Azera in the USA in 2012 has been confirmed by Hyundai. I expect a starting price in the upper $20s, to slot it just above the Sonata Limited (which starts around $25k) and below the Genesis 3.8 (which starts at $33k today). If companies like Toyota, Nissan, and Ford can offer a FWD vehicle in this price range, why not Hyundai?

stever · February 2011

Actually what I think was said is that some Hyundai owners have been told they have to use dealer service or risk lack of warranty coverage.

I've read similar owner comments on the forums here from time to time. Lots of dealers do it, not just Hyundai. Seems like Hyundai has more complaints though.

Even though tie-in sales are illegal under Magnuson-Moss, lots of people don't know that.

backy · February 2011

I recall the Granada ads. Pretty ridiculous. Although not too terrible a car for its time and price.

Professional auto reviewers on this continent don't want to offend advertisers, first and foremost.

So you are saying companies like Toyota don't advertise in auto mags? So when a mag trashes a big-selling car like the Camry, it's because Toyota does not now or never will advertise in that mag? Riiiiiight.

backy · February 2011

What was said was:

...you have to have every little (frequent) service performed by them (Hyundai), or else risk denial of a claim later.

I've heard the complaint from owners of other brands about some dealers being deceptive on warranty practices. There's rotten dealers all over, unfortunately. But this was singling out one company as a general rule, which is 1) not fair and 2) not true.

stever · February 2011

What was said was " I can't tell you the number of times I have read and also chatted with new Hyundai owners, ".

And like I said, I read a lot of posts around here and it seems like Hyundai and their dealers have a bit of a reputation for trying to deny warranty claims. More so than other makes, although I haven't run the numbers.

The worse though was the Mazda attempt to deny a warranty claim because the VIN wasn't printed on the quick lube receipt.

bobad · February 2011

I think sometimes "Character" is used as a code word for "Qirkiness" or "Leaks oil and has electrical gremlins".

Handling was over rated for those old boats. Almost any tight new car can turn in better handling, acceleration, and braking numbers.

bobad · February 2011

Yes, Hyundai, the champion of automotive innovation. So much of what we enjoy in modern cars was born in Korea. Right.

I think what happened in the past is irrelevant. US companies developed the TV, but I don't guess you have a US made TV in your family room. Right now, everyone is drooling over the new Samsung TV's. I think Korea in general and Hyundai in particular is full of energy right now, and turning out very competent cars. Don't underestimate Korea and Koreans. I think this is just the beginning for them. Germany's best days are behind them, Korea's are still 10 years out. 5 years from now, the Genesis and Equus will be seen as baby steps on their way to domination of several segments.

bobad · February 2011

MB innovations - honeycomb radiator, float carburetor, fuel injection, direct injection, 4 wheel brakes, crumple zones, traction control, ESP, brake assist, diesel passenger cars, turbodiesels, double glazing, mass production of ABS and airbags, and that's just off the top of my head.

Oh how I wish my Hyundai had a float carburetor. Makes me feel so inadequate.

Just kidding, MB certainly was filled with energy and innovation back in the day, but that day is in its twilight. The energy now is in Japan and Korea. Even Japan is fading a bit, continuing to cash in on their former excellence but not continuing to innovate at their former rate. There's a pattern to this. Success leads to conservatism (small c) and complacency. The bubble of innovation and excellence inflate here and there around the globe, then eventually pops.

iluvmysephia1 · February 2011

although I'm partial to Mitsubishi I really am impressed with Hyundai/Kia and also Ford. Chrysler and GM products are now becoming buyable again, too, which is good because the world's #1 volume Chrysler dealer is about a half-mile down the mountainside from me here in little 'ole Kellogg, ID. :P

bobad · February 2011

Don't hit the pole then

My wife is a rear end crash magnet.

A big Buick knocked her 5mph 77 Rabbit 20 feet, no damage.

A month ago, her 06 Sonata took a bone-jarring hit from a Honda minivan. We thought the bumper cover was ruined, but once we scraped all the Honda's paint off, the bumper and paint were fine. We were amazed, because that hit was at least 5mph.

Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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