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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • jimbresjimbres Member Posts: 2,025
    Germany's best days are behind them

    Not at all. Thanks to the largely no-speed-limit autobahn, German cars will continue to lead the world in driving dynamics. If you've ever driven in Germany, as I have, then this won't surprise you. Want to run with the big dogs on the A89 leg without humiliating yourself? Then you'll need something built in Munich or Stuttgart. Deutschland Uber Alles, my friend.

    I don't think that you can legally drive anywhere in Asia at speeds over 100 kph. That's why Asian cars, whether Korean or Japanese, simply aren't as satisfying to drive. That won't change anytime soon. North American car buyers who genuinely enjoy driving & appreciate superior road dynamics will pay the premium that German iron commands.

    I have nothing but respect for Hyundai - in fact, when the time comes to replace my wife's Lexus, we'll certainly check out Hyundai's offerings - but I think that most of their sales gains will continue to come at the expense of the Japanese brands for years to come.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I've never seen any real "trashing" in any American mag.

    There were ads with scenes of people confusing a Mercedes for a Granada - like getting into the wrong car. That's like someone confusing a CLS with a new Sonata. Actually, there's a parallel there.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    edited February 2011
    It was still money, nobody has an endless expense account, even if they are coddled and aided by their nation.

    Remember from a while ago...MSRP is 33K, but they can be had at a nice discount. Isn't Hyundai supposed to be offering a superior alternative in the Genesis to those FWD barges rather than playing with them?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    edited February 2011
    I'll take you up on that 5 year prediction.

    Germany's best days behind them? Insane, please detail that claim. All of the big German makes have been advancing at rapid pace in the past 5 years, leaving their turn of the century woes behind them. The Germans have learned they can win via economics and engineering, and won't back down from a battle now. You don't want to take on that opponent.

    I'll eat my shoes when the Equus and Genesis sell as well on a global basis compared to what they seek to emulate.

    TVs and cars are not the same, completely different mentality and marketing. I'll say that while saying I actually own a great Samsung TV (along with a sometimes iffy Samsung phone).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    edited February 2011
    Have you been near the gadgetry in a new MB? The German makes are full of energy now, they realize they slipped up about a decade ago, and are rapidly leaving those days as a distant memory. Remember, their sales have been growing by leaps and bounds too, and they are still the cars everyone seems to want. Which new technologies are being pioneered by the swoopy H that can compare with what I listed?
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    Just got back from my dealership here in South Florida and was told that they are building a separate showroom next door that will only house the Genesis/Equus vehicles. They said they are building for the future as Genesis will become its own brand.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    edited February 2011
    Isn't Hyundai supposed to be offering a superior alternative in the Genesis to those FWD barges rather than playing with them?

    A lot of people buy those FWD barges. What's wrong with Hyundai trying to grab some of those buyers? And if they want something different from a FWD barge, there's the Genesis.

    Any luxury car these days can be had at a nice discount. In fact, in 2010 the biggest incentives offered were on (in decreasing size of discount): Maybach, S Class (ex. 12 cylinders), M6 softtop, 6 Series, and (tie) CL63 AMG / CL550. The next five were all 2009 model Caddies, Saabs, or Range Rovers. (From C/D 1/11.)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I read that the price of entry for selling the Equus was to have a separate showroom of some sort. Kind of odd that Hyundai would make Genesis its own brand when it's doing nothing to associate Equus with the Genesis name.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Which new technologies are being pioneered by the swoopy H that can compare with what I listed?

    I would put lithium polymer batteries in the category of significant automotive technologies. Hyundai is a pioneer in deploying those. They are also a pioneer in GDI technology. No, they didn't invent GDI, but they are applying it much more extensively than anyone else I can think of. And Blue Light has some unique features in it, such as Eco-Coach. Just a few examples. I won't list all 1500+ patents. (wink)

    Not sure how much work Hyundai did on carburetors. Those were getting extinct by the time Hyundai launched its first car. Maybe the Pony had carbs.
  • toyetoye Member Posts: 351
    It implied that to me that only the Genesis and Equus would be sold in the new showroom and expand the current showroom yet using the service center in the back for both. The dealership would be ready for the future announcements concerning Hyundai luxury brand when that occurs they couldn't tell me. Everything(the showrooms) should be done by early 2012.
    My information is only as good as what the salesman said but it does show that the dealer is spending some big bucks and they have some sort of a blueprint that they are following.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Why not seek to get them to make a marginal price upgrade and buy the Genesis? Of course, that would be helped if AWD was finally offered, like it is in the cars the Gen wants to emulate.

    But the Genesis is supposed to be a revolution and not some six figure plutocrat barge with insane profit margins, right?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I'll turn my head when I see those Li-poly units in cars on the street. Probably won't be prevalent in the luxury end anyway. In regards to gdi, if you aren't there in the beginning, you aren't a pioneer. I like how H is running with the idea, as I believe in the tech, and it (along with some others who are doing it concurrently) will encourage others to do so. I will give an A for effort, anyway. Eco-coach, isn't that just a nagging nanny? I think that's been done before. I have seen "blue link"...maybe some fun stuff, but no real pioneering that I can see.

    Examine how primitive fuel delivery systems are on those veteran cars that existed before the Germans modernized the ideal. It was a huge jump at that time, at least as equal to any new hybrid/battery ideals today.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Maybe you could read up a bit on Eco-Coach. It's not a "nagging nanny."

    Hyundai is on a mission to get their fleet mpg average up, way ahead of the EPA regs. So I don't think the Sonata is the last Hyundai application we'll see for the lithium polymer battery. Other automakers offer luxury hybrids--why not Hyundai? Although I'd bet we'll see an Elantra hybrid before a Genesis or Equus--much higher sales volume means more impact on fleet mpg.

    As for the Azera... does it bother you somehow that Hyundai wants to offer a FWD V6 car that slots in between the Sonata and Genesis? It seems to. You might as well go tell Toyota to ditch the Avalon--why do they need something between the Camry and the ES? That's even worse in a way than Hyundai, because the ES is FWD too, like the Avalon. Or tell Nissan to ditch the Maxima--it's even smaller inside than the Altima, and has the same V6. Not even an engine to differentiate the two, unlike Sonata/Azera/Genesis.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Per the website: "Eco-Coach is a scoring system that allows you to track mileage and CO2 emissions on the Blue Link® Owner’s website, then gives you advice on how to improve driving habits to improve your efforts."

    Sounds like a nag, like a new version of old fashioned economy gauges.

    Other luxury hybrids are marginal players anyway, so H would be advised to try to gain some kind of solid footing in the upper end before going that way. And don't give it that gaping maw either :shades:

    Nothing H does is meaningful enough to me to cause "bother", I just find it questionable. Not everything the swoopy H does is perfect just because their propaganda minister likes to talk. Perhaps if Genesis/Equus spun of into its own brand, it could then have a position as the top H. I just like to laugh about the Azera/Grandeur (a grand car in what market?????) ...40K+ Euro...hilarious.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How can Eco-Coach be a "nagging nanny" when you have to be sitting at a computer looking at a web site to use it? As the name says, it's a "coach", not some flashing light or dial or other "nagging nanny" in the car. And how can it "nag" you if you choose not to visit the web site?

    That "gaping maw" has class-leading Cd. You want Hyundai to be innovative, don't you?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Not much difference between a coach and a nag. It's an economy gauge on the computer, reminds me of the guilt meter on my old S-class...I'd run it in red just to laugh at it :shades: ...thrifty driving isn't any kind of mystery.

    The boring boxy angular E-class also has an astonishing Cd, and no big mouth. I don't know if the look is aero....but it is kind of trendy. No matter, Sonata hybrid is no luxury car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Since the E Class sedan has the same Cd as the Sonata Hybrid sedan, .25, I guess you'll agree that the Sonata's Cd is "astonishing" also.

    The Hyundai luxury cars aren't too shabby on drag either: .27 for both. Very competitive in their classes.

    Too bad that old S Class had a "nagging nanny". Maybe that's why Hyundai took a different approach with Blue Light Eco-Coach. You don't see it unless you WANT to.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    image

    Looks a bit like they tried to copy a 1997 Cadillac DeVille.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Looks more like the early LS to me, especially the greenhouse.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Looks like a Beijing-built 1995 Lexus LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Well, the E is boxy and upright and angular, the Sonata is swoopy and low and rakish (for a blandbox)...aero isn't always just in looks.

    I think the economy meter in 126 series cars was actually reverse psychology, at least for me. But I've also tried to get my modern car to display a single digit mpg...can't get there :shades:

    I am sure the Equus also has a trip computer with mpg readout, viewable along with other stats.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 15,905
    edited February 2011
    think the economy meter in 126 series cars was actually reverse psychology, at least for me. But I've also tried to get my modern car to display a single digit mpg...can't get there

    The Genesis has an instant FE meter as a bar graph. Its fun to see how often I can get no bar showing.... of course @ $3.00/gal that gets to be pricey but fun. Actually I can't complain with my heavy foot I still am around 20 with every tank on mostly city or clogged highway driving.

    2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I remember the old school instant readouts where you could get a near zero reading - a childhood friend's Taurus would do this with the AC on and going slow.

    My car keeps a trip average, so it is hard to get too low, even slow movement seems to keep it above 10mpg. But I probably only average 15mpg in town - maybe not too poor for a 90s tech tuned V8. 25mpg on the highway is easy anyway.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    My low-bucks Sentra displays single-digit mpg just fine. Although you have to be quick to see the single digits. (wink)

    The E isn't all that boxy/upright anymore... it's pretty streamlined for a sedan. You can't get that kind of Cd with boxy/upright (see: minivan).

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I think it depends on the angle. This doesn't seem especially swoopy or low slung to me (rental car I had in Germany - over 40mpg overall too, now that's cool)

    image

    The design was obviously researched intensely either way. Some may think otherwise, but the Germans aren't fading away just yet.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No, not fading away at all. As you noted, they stumbled a bit several years ago but have learned from it and came back. Taking on the Europeans on their home turf won't be easy at all. Who has done it successfully? Not even Cadillac, with all their history and some decent high-end cars now, have made much of a dent there. All the more reason to start in the home country first, then other-markets-except-Europe, build some cred there with mass-market models, then when the product is right start moving in. It will take some time. But I have no doubt it's coming.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Then again, I could get my 1994 Cadillac DeVille's economy meter go up to 70 MPG by coasting down a steep hill and shifting into neutral.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    edited February 2011
    I'll have to see it to believe it. It's the toughest high end market to crack in the world. If the products aren't made to cater to it specifically, they will be nothing more than background noise - like Lexus is there now. It helps when the home country has a long history of cars that are good to drive and sit in, and when the home country is also a good place to drive. They are related.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    I never got the idea of instantaneous mpg readouts...too easily manipulated, as you mention. It's the trip, not the instant.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Maybe it's to get you to ease off on the gas when you see the numbers drop? I had a 1979 Buick Park Avenue with an "Economy Minder" that consisted of two lights on the fuel gauge: one green, one red.

    A steady green light meant you were getting the best fuel economy.
    A steady green and red light meant average.
    A steady red light meant you were consuming the most fuel.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    All that was was a vacuum guage that operated those lights.

    But they did tell the truth!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    A reporter is interested in speaking with anyone who is willing to share their recent (last 6-9 months) experience with ANY of the following systems: adaptive cruise control, collision warning/crash avoidance, blind-spot warning, pedestrian detection, self-parking, Ford MyKey or MyTouch, Ford Sync's cloud-based voice-activated features (directions, weather, sports, stock quotes, movies, restaurant/hotel info, etc), in-car on-demand ipod downloads.

    If you are interested in commenting on your experience, please reply to pr@edmunds.com no later than 5pm EST on March 16, 2011 and include your name, state of residence, the model year of your vehicle and your phone number.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The American Express Centurion Card – the quasi-mystical “black card” of near mythic urban-legend proportion – reputedly is the symbol of ultimate spending power. Those invited to own a black card have an average annual household income of $1.3 million. They have assets of $16 million. They have a Hyundai in the garage. Well, 6 percent of black card holders do, at any rate. Hyundai enjoys the same ownership penetration among Centurion Card members as Bentley and Audi. Just 2 percent more Centurions own a Ferrari. The comparative – and surprising – success of Hyundai’s luxury-oriented nameplates, the Genesis and Equus, has established the brand with the low-key wealthy of a reoriented post-recession landscape."

    Hyundais Rolling Into Wealthy Garages -- Really (AutoObserver)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Now that's tasty propaganda.

    Owning vs driving...

    I've still seen but one Equus on the road. Might be more than the amount of brand new GS I see though - who actually buys those in 2011?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Not real surprising. People don't get to be millionaires by chasing designer labels and being brand loyal. I would take an educated guess that many millionaires are smart, logical, and pragmatic about such things.

    Reminds me, I gotta drive an Equus. I have wanted to for some time, but forget. You drive 1 yet Fintail?
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    People don't get to be millionaires by chasing designer labels and being brand loyal.

    At least self made ones don't. 2nd and 3rd generation get too much into those things.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    2nd and 3rd generation never had to work for it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Nope, if I am going to blow 60K+ on a barge, that's not how I am going to do it - just for the reason that I don't want to have to look at that thing in my garage.

    I'd wager many of these cars aren't driven by the "millionaire" but are rather for the maid/butler/personal assistant/nanny/other hired help etc to use.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Oh, this is America. The vast majority of wealth is from hard work by the beholder. The WSJ told me so.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sign me up for one of those butler/personal assistant jobs!!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    But you might get stuck driving a 5 year old Accent down to the botox clinic to pick up supplies for the princess ;)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited July 2011
    Just don't park downhill at the clinic.

    2011 Hyundai Equus: Engine Stalled Out (Inside Line)

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    Maybe at that angle, fuel had problem getting through the carbs? :shades:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No, no... you almost guaranteed I'd get an Equus for my personal use. That's the job I want. From what you're saying, there's a lot of them out there. Beats driving a Sentra!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    The article was about high end cardholders owning random Hyundais...but yes, I would take an Equus over a Sentra in a heartbeat, too :shades:

    Regarding the Equus, I wonder if the suspension can be manually raised and lowered, I remember the one I saw seemed to be riding pretty high.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It has an adjustable air suspension, so that might control height.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Maybe Hyundai can buy and repackage the Maybach. (WSJ)

    And knock around $200,000 off the price while doing so. :)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,139
    The Equus has about the same amount of elegance and classic design as the overdone tacky Maybach.
  • mooheadmoohead Member Posts: 3
    Been driving it for a week now, such a great car and great value!!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    congrats on a well considered purchase. As it relates to this topic, however, I wonder what types of reaction are you getting when you tell folks that 'this is the world's first $60k Hyundai'. Live in a city of several million, have only seen 1 on the road and thought its road presence was somewhat unremarkable.
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