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Toyota is on the Offensive. Will it work?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Gagrice, what do you think of the offensive in 2007?

    I think I have made it clear. I find Toyota as a company OFFENSIVE!

    You & Steve are right, this thread is not about my problems with Toyota. I will try not to intrude on sacred ground.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota's best offensive move was to switch to timing chains for their popular V6s.

    Even gagrice himself must appreciate the fact that they switched to a no-maintenance chain rather than a belt with 60k replacement intervals that people like him overlook.

    So in an ironic turn-around, gagrice's posts have shed light on a major Toyota offensive - maintenance-free timing chains!
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    lol. I knew there was a light at the end of the tunnel.

    Time to close the topic, question answered! J/K
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    I don't think its sacred ground man, it is just a discussion. If you don't like Toyota because of past experiences, there is nothing wrong with it.

    But why not let the forum know what Toyota could do better. Jeeze, I've never owned one in my life and I have all kinds of opinions, good and bad about them. They (rightfully IMO) are ready to steal the top sales spot from GM so they have some kind of offensive going...

    You're in to diesels right? Well, what models do you think can benefit the most?

    Don't buy the whole hybrid hype? Tell the forum why you don't agree with it.

    Don't like Toyota clutches? I don't know what to say... ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm glad this topic was brought up. :shades:

    A little research shows Toyota's new V6s do indeed have timing chains. The 1GR (4.0l) versions went in the following trucks:

    2003 Toyota 4Runner
    2003 Toyota Land Cruiser (Europe)
    2003 Toyota Land Cruiser Prado (Asia Pacific)
    2005 Toyota Tacoma
    2005 Toyota Tundra
    2005 Toyota Fortuner (Middle East)
    2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser

    The 2GR version makes it into these models:

    2005 Toyota Avalon
    2006 Toyota Aurion
    2006 Toyota RAV4 V6
    2006 Toyota Estima V6
    2007 Toyota Previa V6
    2007 Toyota Tarago V6
    2007 Toyota Camry V6
    2007 Toyota Sienna
    2007 Lexus ES 350
    2007 Lexus RX 350
    2008 Toyota Kluger
    2008 Toyota Highlander
    2006 Toyota Crown Athlete (Japan)
    2006 Lexus GS 350 (Japan)
    2006 Lexus GS 450h
    2006 Lexus IS 350 (Japan and United States)
    2007 Lexus GS 350 (United States)

    The reason I bring this up is that a timing belt failure due to neglect, as reported here, is no longer a possibility in any of these Toyotas.

    Timing belts can't break if they don't even exist!

    So this a non-issue. The new Tacoma uses a chain. So does the new big V8 in the Tunrda, by the way. So you'll never see a timing belt failure there.

    Sorry to disappoint you gagrice, but what happened to you will not ever happen to these, no use huffing and puffing about it any more. :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    All my GM engines were V8s. You only change the spark plugs at 100k miles. Change oil and filters on a regular basis. No problems. I don't think you understand what it is like to be working remote while your son drives yours/his vehicle. I won't make excuses for his inattention to maintenance. There is a big difference between a broken serpentine belt on a GM V8 and a Toyota 4 banger. The belt breaks on the V8 and you put a new one on and away you go. You break one on a 4 cylinder like the Toyota PU engine and it is a $1300 bill.

    You have to understand where I am coming from. It was the timing gear that went out twice in 25k miles on the Land Cruiser. I would expect a little more than 35k more miles after 30 years of R&D.

    Expecting me to read the manual from 3000 plus miles away and foreseeing those kind of poor design problems is not justified in my book. I guess that is where GM shines over Toyota. You just drive them and don't worry about reading a manual. The only thing I ever look at the manual for is setting the clock and recommended oil changes. I have never done a 30k or 60k mile check up at a GM dealer.

    I have said this before. If Toyota is first to the field with a mid sized diesel PU. I would give it a shot.

    Personally I think the other automakers are going to catch Toyota with their hybrid pants down.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    No 4-cylinder Toyota pick-up (or Tacoma) has ever used a timing belt. They have all used timing chains. In fact, the '94 still used what has become perhaps Toyota's most renowned engine ever: the 22R-E. I have never had a timing chain break on me in any of the many I have owned, so it is most unfortunate if that happened to gagrice.

    And as for timing belts, the Tundra 4.7 V-8 still uses one - I think that and the last of the V-6 Solaras still using the old 3.3L engine are the last Toyota models to use a belt instead of a chain. The Solara is due to be phased out in the next year, of course, and I suppose the Tundra/LC's 4.7 will be too when the new LC arrives next year.

    mackabee: the problem with those xA Release Series is they were way too much money extra (over the base model) with way too little extra content - most of it was cosmetic.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Thank you for setting the record straight. All I know I was at work in Alaska and the truck broke and it was towed to Toyota. They said it was something to do with timing, and nailed me for $1300.

    Hopefully they have better designed engines now. They still don't build a diesel for the US market so are not on my radar.

    PS
    Does my wife's LS400 have a belt or a chain? We have had all the maintenance done and I did not see a bill for that.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    All the Lexus LS 400/430s have had a timing belt, and in 1990 the recommended change interval was still 60K miles. I think you could probably get away with 90K for the interval, but I wouldn't push it much beyond there. And it is not listed as an interference engine, so if it breaks all you do is stop, it doesn't add $4000 to the cost of repair!

    I never underswtood the fascination carmakers had with timing belts in the 90s. The weight savings had to be so minimal as not to matter, and the noise from a chain vs that of a belt seems negligible to me too.

    While timing chains have no official change interval and will usually give you lots of advance warning when they are getting old and stretched, some people still recommend changing them anyway at a certain mileage (usually 100K or 150K among those I've heard) just to avoid the engine jumping timing.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Ok, what's the difference between posting and blogging? I'm serious.
    Mackabee
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    PS
    "Does my wife's LS400 have a belt or a chain? We have had all the maintenance done and I did not see a bill for that."

    gag, you do know that's a Toyota right?
    ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Not much according to my wife. She comes in and says are you going to do anything today but Blog? So I go out and get some yard work done. I think it is more semantics than anything. I enjoy the debate as long as it does not get personal or hateful.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    yes the 4.7L and the 3.3L are the last hold overs from the 90's. Everything else has a chain.

    As noted previously one of the most amazing things of all is the inherent efficiency of the V6's. They are all the same GR's with slightly different applications. This is over a million engines alone in the US. This GR V6 has now been extended to China and to Japan. One single V6 across millions of vehicles. And to top that off in building it they saved $1000 per engine during production.

    Whoaaa.. That's a thousand million(s) of dollars saved ( $1 Billion )....every year, forever.

    Now that's an offensive.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Interesting note here: even as timing belts have almost been eliminated over at Toyota, the Lexus store is selling mostly models with older engine designs with belt-driven cam shafts: the 4.3 V-8 which was in the LS through the '07 MY, and is still in the SC and GS uses a belt. So does the 4.7 in the LX470 and GX470.

    Only the models using the new modular 2.5/3.5 have timing chains. Lexus is selling a lot of old product right now. They should extend the wheelbase of the RX, call it the RX-L or something, and cancel the GX altogether. And the SC and GS should go to using the new engine in the '08 LS. Will there possibly be a model update for the SC any time soon here? It seems like it must be overdue.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Around here, forum posts generally are multi-party conversations that may or may not continue on one subject (thread) or may diverge into all sorts of off-shots mostly related to the overall topic of discussion. Some threads may go on for months or years.

    A blog (or a blog post if you will) is made by one person and is more of a dairy where you post your thoughts on a daily or less frequent basis.

    If you set up a blog, you'll be the only person who can make a blog entry and that's the main hook for that blog entry. Anyone will be able to comment on your CarSpace blog, and you can engage with others in the comments, but because blogging is done on an ongoing basis, the comments tend to be active for a day or three, and then everyone moves on to chew on your next missive. It's more of a soapbox and less collaborative in some ways that a forum discussion.
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Ok. I got it. I may start one soon! :blush:
    Mackabee
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That'd be perfect for you - you could start a story and drag the blog posts out over 6 or 8 weeks before getting to the finish. :shades:

    Some bloggers have taken their posts over the course of a year or so and made a book out of them. How about "Tales from the Tower?"
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,147
    >could start a story and drag the blog posts out over 6 or 8 weeks before getting to the finish.

    Don't encourage our friend to drag the stories out more. Some of us hang on these episodes more than American Idol each week. We are waiting for the next post from Mack...

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Heh, a 6 or 8 week time frame would shorten some of Mack's stories.

    But they are sure worth waiting for!
  • goldsuvgoldsuv Member Posts: 51
    When I looked in to a Toyota product, I thought the value was terrible. It costs Toyota $1000 to build the 3.5 L v6 (see http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8f8d9). They had a NET profit of 10 billion dollars last year.None of their Simple Slim cost cutting is going back to the consumer. Its laughable that they can charge $40,0000 for a car with a $1000
    engine.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Actually what it does is lock in the current profit by being able to add more to the vehicle than what was there before. You're right about the GR V6 but that $1000 savings allows them, in the case of the Camry, to add 7 airbags standard ( $500 ) and eventually VSC/Trac ( $500 ) yet keep the price of the Camry relatively unchanged from 2001.

    That's where the value comes in, not to mention that the new V6 added 70 hp and better fuel economy.

    They keep their profit margin intact yet the vehicles have more in them at about the same pricing - 6 yrs down the road with ~10% inflation factored in to the cost/price. Consider that with a 10% inflation over 6 yrs a $21000 4c Camry with no airbags/VSC/Trac should now cost a little over $23000. However today it's still under $22000 but with all those features and a larger more fuel efficient 2.4L engine. This is where all the other vehicle makers envy Toyota, it's production process improvement is unrelenting.

    The current chairman gave the engineers a brilliant goal to hit earlier this year. Currently there is about 14000 parts to a typical auto. He charged them with cutting that number in half. HUH? What 2 doors in stead of 4? 1 headlight instead of 2?

    Actually it means looing at the whole puzzle and saying 'Where are 20 pieces that can be combined into one unit of 5 pieces?' 'Where are there three panels that can be formed in one process from one piece of metal?' This efficiency saves fabrication and makes the whole vehicle simpler ( lower cost ).

    Example: Back in the 90's every vehicle had a distributor, rotors and spark plug wires. That all has been replaced since 1998 by an electronic induction coil sitting atop each plug ( TDI ).
  • lemonhaterlemonhater Member Posts: 110
    That is capitalism for you. No company is under any obligation to lower its prices and companies that lower their prices only do so because they think they can generate more money by lowering the price.

    Anyway most consumers don’t care if the is a V4 or V6 or V8. They don’t care about horse power. The only consumers who do care are people into sports cars or people more into cars in general.

    What they do care about are things like reliability, safety, and fuel efficiency. They also want a car with enough pick up which is a bit different than just horsepower. (i.e. depends on torque, weight, and horsepower)They want a car with enough interior space and a nice interior. They want a car with some styling, but not something too bold. Basically they want what Toyota delivers in spades.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    You were doing good till you got to the styling part.
  • lemonhaterlemonhater Member Posts: 110
    Nah I like toyoya's styling for the most part. Although the corrola is a bit too dull for me.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Ehh they have fallen into the same trap as many other auto companies now.

    Almost every model just looks like a Small, Medium and Large version of the same car.

    image

    image

    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You got to admit that is Offensive. I have felt for several years that the automakers were into seeing who could build the ugliest vehicles and still sell them. I think Dodge started it with their butt ugly PU truck.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    None of those look particularly terrible in fact, I think the RAV4 is one of the better looking small utes (along with the Outlander) and I'm sure alot of that swoopy front end styling is for pedestrian safety rather than for style. I'd be willing to bet the engineering and design models on the RAV4 was the driver for the larger models. That and it brings a corporate identity that is recognizable as a Toyota.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    The problem with your comparisons as every manufacturer having a "worst" car ever is not that good. For one, Toyota's Echo is loved by many. It is a very reliable A to B type car, it'll get you from A to B. Sure, it won't win any 0-60 races, nor does it have the most features or bells and whistles, but it is reliable and it does get good gas mileage.

    The thing is, Chrysler/Dodge don't tell you, warn you, or advertise that this is "the worst car we ever built and are trying to sell you." They should, at least that would be more honest and ethical.

    Since they touted it and advertised it as the "new" Dodge, and the "new" Chrysler way of design, there is no reason to believe anything they make is any better.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Wait no more! There's two yes two! installments of the Shue's at "Stories from the frontlines" :)
    Mackabee
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,729
    I like the RAV4's looks.
    '15 Audi Misano Red Pearl S4, '16 Audi TTS Daytona Gray Pearl, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Kind of like Land Rover? ;)
    Mack
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Our cars look different from each other. They might share some styling cues but they all look different. You can tell them apart without a frame of reference.

    Come on even you have to admit that at first glance and if with minimum size reference it is hard to tell a RAV4 and a new Highlander apart.

    image

    image

    See
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I still think this is one of the best ever...

    image
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    "Come on even you have to admit that at first glance and if with minimum size reference it is hard to tell a RAV4 and a new Highlander apart."

    Maybe to the casual observer that would be the case. I've been around these cars for so long that I can tell them apart just by looking at the wheels. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Last of the RUGGED Toyotas...

    image
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Alright. I'm getting jealous of all these pictures. How do you guys get them into the posts.?
    image
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    When you go to your album, click on the photo you want to put into a post (not just the thumbnail, in other words). Then there will be an embed image link in a box there you can copy and paste into a post.

    Or you can copy the URL in the other box there and use the Img button just above the Emotorcons to paste it here - so you'd hit the Img button, paste the photo URL, and then hit the Img button again to close the html code. That's especially handy for photos that aren't hosted on your CarSpace page.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I use montypics.com or photobucket.com. I mainly use it to sell stuff on Craigslist. But it works here also.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "Toyota's Echo is loved by many. It is a very reliable A to B type car, it'll get you from A to B. Sure, it won't win any 0-60 races, nor does it have the most features or bells and whistles, but it is reliable and it does get good gas mileage."

    Mine has 86K miles, no repairs yet, pulls 41 mpg average in suburban driving, and WILL win 0-60 races with the Prius, the 4-cylinder Camry, the Honda Fit, and the Ford Explorer! :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Toyota isn't a non-profit or credit union, you know.... They have no obligation, moral or otherwise to refund savings back to the customer - and the customer has no obligation to buy their cars - but if they do - then Toyota deserves every dollar it can make. At least, that is how I feel.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,681
    Example: Back in the 90's every vehicle had a distributor, rotors and spark plug wires. That all has been replaced since 1998 by an electronic induction coil sitting atop each plug ( TDI ).

    Is that really a good example of making it simpler, though? Seems to me that this is kind of like taking one distributor and breaking it down into 4, 6, 8, or occasionally 12 different components.
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    Example: Back in the 90's every vehicle had a distributor, rotors and spark plug wires. That all has been replaced since 1998 by an electronic induction coil sitting atop each plug.

    Andre's observation on this statement is a valid one, just more individual components to fail.

    But, kdhspyder's original statement is incorrect anyway. SAAB introduced direct ignition with coil-on-plug design on it's SAAB 9000 Turbo in 1989.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I should have been more precise..every Toyota vehicle.. my bad.

    The new TDI put in the Toyota's across the board in 1998 simplified the mechanical operation of the vehicle by replacing numerous moving mechanical parts with no moving parts and an electronic controller. More complex electronically? Yes, but simpler and lighter mechanically.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I have never done a 30k or 60k mile check up at a GM dealer.

    Wow, I'm not even sure how to respond to that. I'm sure GM would try to get you to change your ways and take them in for preventative maintenance.

    Plus, most people are not like that, they will get their cars serviced. For comparison purposes, we should look at the reliability for vehicles that are maintained every so often, because most owners will do this.

    You are looking for a car that can be neglected, while most are looking for a car that will be reliable and last a long time when they are maintained properly.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Aren't we applying a double standard here?

    When Land Rovers share a common theme, even with their 1960s predecessors, it's a corporate identity theme.

    When Toyota does it, it's small, medium, large versions of the same car? I thought that was a good thing.

    Plus, I don't even think the RAV4 looks like the others. It's far more youthful, check out the D-pillar and especially the interior.
  • chetjchetj Member Posts: 324
    when i was a kid in the 70s my father built a house for a guy who had a rig similar to this...my in laws in philippines have a 1968 army truck made by toyota that still runs..not a lot of amenities, but i got a kick out of the 15 people they put in back of the truck...didnt some toyota salesman start this thread? probably just to rub our face in it ( domestic buyers)...cool picture
  • mackabeemackabee Member Posts: 4,709
    Former salesman. According to him he doesn't sell cars anymore.
    :)
    Mackabee
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    When I was a kid I always wondered about that sort of thing. I have no depth perception. When I started driving (there's lots of us out there) I wondered what would happen if someone, say, made a Cadillac the size of a Volkswagen. Would that set my perception all off sine my idea of how far away something was was in part determined by how big it was.

    Then, lo and behold, they started making Cadillacs the size of Volkswagens (they were really Cavaliers but they said Cadillac on them) and then everyone got into the act of making same look different sizes. As it turns out I'm fine....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nowadays they also have extra-large, like the Expedition EL. ;)
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Well I can CERTAINLY see one of those coming! ;)
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
This discussion has been closed.

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