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Toyota is on the Offensive. Will it work?

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  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Very cool, is it wool? Did you shear the sheep, card & spin the wool?

    PS
    You are not near the fires are you? We have a friend in Ketchum that had to evacuate.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I'm cheap - I usually make rugs out of old sheets from the thrifts (rag rugs in other words). My wife usually weaves wool. We buy the wool - spinning is a whole 'nother ball of yarn.

    Suzuki started out as the Suzuki Loom Manufacturing Company btw.

    Besides cars and looms, Toyoto is into financial services, business logistic services, holds interests in lots of auto suppliers, has a travel agency, does billboard production and makes liquid crystal displays with Sony, just to list a few. Lots of stuff besides cars.

    The fires are all over but none near Boise right now. It's been pretty smoke free all summer, unlike last year. There's 2400 acres of grass right behind us and parts of it catch fire every few years (and is always contained by the fire road behind us ... so far :surprise: ).
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    are all those businesses inside japan?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Well, I just hit some high points so please excuse me for just glossing over stuff. Some is domestic and some outside Japan. Some is "Toyota Industries" stuff and I didn't dig around to see how the corporations relate to the car biz. I'm assuming all the "Toyota" corporations are connected to each other in various ways. And they own small percentages of other businesses (the deal with Sony is 50-50, but they have lots of other interests that are much smaller ownership percentages).

    I suspect GM and the other majors are spread around in similar ways.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    is speculating that this new ACE crossover to appear in two years will replace the Sienna? If that happens, it will be a mistake on Toyota's part, I think.

    And Toyota's continued fierce devotion to hybrids in lieu of diesels for its large vehicles is another misstep IMO. They do talk about an eventual diesel for the Tundra truck, which I guess would find its way into the Sequoia also at some point, and that's it. I think hybrids are better for small vehicles, diesels for large, especially trucks. And I guess they have mostly put fuel cell development on a back burner, another decision which may wind up hurting them.

    If there is a downfall in Toyota's future, I think it may come from being too conservative for its own good.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    It just doesn't seem like it's their philosophy to give up a market segment (Unless its sporty cars :blush: ) all together. If gas prices continue to climb I predict there will still be plenty of people who won't go the route of the SUV or crossover, especially those who don't see the 4 seasons.

    And regarding the diesels, I've read about the production being spread to more than just full size trucks. The FJ cruiser comes to mind especially as one of the first to see such motor. Plus, why would Toyota grab interest in Isuzu if they aren't going to utilize their expertise in that area?

    I think there is a lot more going on behind the curtains than we are aware of. Especially when Honda, one of Toyos main competitors is touting a full lineup of diesels coming in 08'.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    but they have developed small diesel engines for use in the rest of the world, from yaris to corolla to hilux. If it turns out diesel is a big hit here, how quickly can they re-engineer their diesels to comply with US standards?

    looking at the new epa numbers, still nothing can touch the prius @45 mpg, closest is the yaris which is a class smaller. Interesting enough, the vw diesels didn't have the fantastic mpg being touted under the new test, but of course your mileage may vary. I think yota will stick with hybrid with their pass. cars and diesels with their trucks. Maybe a hybrid sienna in the pipeline.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    ..is that absent some proprietary design like Honda's the cost of making them compliant with the CARB tier2 bin5 standard is probably going to be more expensive than the hybrid cost. Note that MB now is being limited to offering a 42 state vehicle. The very states that are the most difficult on emissions are some of the biggest in Toyota's sales program. Imagine them telling Longo 'We understand that you're bigger than any of our other customers on the planet but, NO you can't sell our diesel Corolla ( which btw can be sold by your competitors in NV and AZ ).' That's just not going to happen.

    Until the ULSD issue is fully in place all over the country and all the vehicles can meet the CARB state limits and the price comes into line, I don't see Toyota making a huge effort in diesels outside of trucks. I am a little surprised that they aren't saying much about a diesel Taco since the HiLux is such a big hit all over the world.

    Rumors keep surfacing that the diesel Tundra is just around the corner, maybe along with a diesel Taco?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    During the Taste of Lexus Evening Event in Santa Anita Park, CA. On top of that I also drove the GS350 in a small course. Was disappointed that Lexus didn't offer the SC430, LS460 and GS450h for us to drive. The only models that we can drive are the GS350, IS350 and IS250. I only choose the GS350 since there is no point to drive my own car...

    Here are my impressions:

    IS-F: This is really not a dyno test instead it's a simulated 1/4-mile run on a dyno. I got to sit in the IS-F, drive it to 4th gear (I got to shift it myself), let go of the gas and let it coast. Overall, the V8 is pretty impressive, I'll say it definitely over 420HP. It doesn't have a traditional V8 low grunt, instead it has a high pitch scream, very nice. The 8-speed transmission shifts fast under manual mode. May not be as fast as the DSG but is definitely faster than the regular IS and other shift-tronics out there. I really wasn't a fan on how does the IS-F look when it debut back in January but this is one of those cars that pictures just don't do it justice. The side profile is very nice, the bulk hood doesn't look out of shape and the big vent on the side looks reserve and not boy-racer like. Bottom line is this is a pretty impressive effort from Lexus but would be better if they drop a manual tranny in there.

    LS600hL: The interior is much better than the regular LS. The dash, door panel and center console are all covered by leather. Very nice. Is it worth over 100 grand? I don't know since I am not into the ubber-luxury sedans. This is definitely not a driver's car, may have more appeal to backseat buyers with the massage captain's chair and all the goodies in the back. Overall it is a worthy competitor to the S600 and 760iL.

    GS350: Drove the GS350 in a small track, it has good pickup, decent brake and went through the corner with ease. Overall speaking, with the 2GR-FSE under the hood it felt like a bigger IS350 with a softer suspension. For anyone who likes the IS350 but needs a bigger backseat this is definitely a good alternative.

    Side note: The Lexus rep told us while waiting to drive the IS-F that there are definitely other F models in the pipeline. I asked him so does that mean the GS-F is definitely coming. He said: Shh...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm with you on this, the Sienna is too heavy for hybrid application. If you have all the weight of kids and gear inside plus dual A/C cranking all the time, how much will it really be able to run on batteries?

    My Sienna gets phenomenal highway mileage (30.6mpg last trip) but city driving makes that average take a nose dive, down to 23mpg last tank.

    I don't see how it could run on battery for long, with all that weight and demand for power to run all that stuff inside.
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    I agree, unless they downgraded the engine size - maybe use the 3.3L hybrid system from the gen 1 Highlander/RX400H hybrids... even then, it's not losing a lot of weight, but should weigh somewhere close to the RX/Highlander. Still, it could reach the point of diminishing returns rather quickly. The current Sienna does get phenomenal gas mileage! I averaged over 31 on a 110 mile round trip. Around town I can very easily get over 25 mpg - about 23 if my wife is driving. Still not bad for a vehicle its size. :shades:
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I agree. I have a good friend with a Sienna, we load it up with seven people and hit the highway from time to time, it always pulls close to 30 mpg on the highway even with all the weight and the A/C cranking, I am always impressed since it feels ENORMOUS when I am driving it.

    Around town with just her and the kids in it is a completely different story - they struggle to break the 20 mark for mileage. In short trips it drinks the gas, but I can't imagine that it would really ever run on electrics alone due to its size (wind resistance) and weight. Now a diesel would probably save 1/3 in around-town gas costs. In contrast, I bet a hybrid would improve it a couple of points at best. The smaller, lower, lighter (by a lot) Highlander hybrid only manages high 20s in town.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The 3.5l (2GR in Toyota-speak) costs a grand less to produce, supposedly. Applying that engine to HSD might help them get their costs down a bit.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah the Sienna is a good candidate for a diesel. Either a large 4 cylinder diesel or a small 6 cylinder diesel both with on turbo and direct injection of course.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The 2GR is already quite good. 266hp, 19/26mpg. Leads the class in both efficiency and HP.

    To be honest it's every other competitor that needs more help in this area, Toyota is the current class leader.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I meant in comparison to a hybrid power train as I agree with you that a hybrid in the sienna won't do you much good. All the accessories will consume too much electricity when stopped but a diesel hardly uses any fuel at idle anyway so it doesn't matter.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Emissions, emissions, emissions.

    This will be the Achilles Heel for diesels in the foreseeable future. While diesel is inhereently more efficient than a gasser by adding whatever hoop-de-do post combustion devices are needed to pass CARB standards may make the cost even higher than the HSD and may also kill the inherent efficiency.

    I had hoped for a 2.4L+HSD 'Base' model Sienna but as big as it is and with all the stuff normally carried it makes sense that it needs more power. The 3.3L+HSD makes the most sense I guess until they come out with a smaller hybrid minivan/CUV.

    Now price: If it's like the new HH then a price in the $32-$34K range seems likely. What will be Honda's price for their diesel Ody next year? Prolly $32-$34K also I'm guessing.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Any "ACE" concept wouldn't replace the minivan, at least not for a few years.

    I think Toyota is planning for the shrinking market, and building a market for the future, without minivans, if that applies.

    The Sienna is a success story, any way you slice it, so I don't see it going anywhere.

    I don't really need a Toyota Pacifica. :sick:

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    On another Edmunds' comparison win (Yawn!)
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=122496?tid=edmund- s.il.home.photopanel..1.*

    When I sold, selling a Rav4 against a CR-V was pretty simple, and they seems to see what eyesore. :blush:

    DrFill
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm not sure I agree those remain "compacts" after growing so much recently. The RAV4 and Outlander even offer a 3rd row.

    Any how, I'm surprised noone brought up the loss of Jim Press, which is a big deal. He was the only American on the board of directors. Chrysler snapped him up just like that.

    It's a huge loss for Toyota.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I think more of the recent Toyota news activity has been in Toyota in 2007.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I do not know if they are playing offense anymore ? It appears to me they are on the defensive because all their top executives that knew how torun the company right have jumped ship.

    So the question is who's going to replace these "key guys" ??? I guess if product quality gets to bad they can always dust off the once secret playbook from the 90's. :P

    -Rocky
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    But this "Corporate Raiding" could be one of the best things to happen to Toyota! ;)

    DrFill
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    But this "Corporate Raiding" could be one of the best things to happen to Toyota!

    How ?

    -Rocky
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    It certainly thwarts any complacency. New execs, new thoughts, new initiatives. Scion, as successful as it is, could use a shot of new ideas, for example.

    It reinforces Toyota's standing, so it may attract top execs from elsewhere. If the competition buys their execs from there, maybe that's where I should be?

    Maybe the company will work harder on compensation and reduced work schedules (Toyota execs are worked like Carlos Ghosn.).

    And the company can build a plan for such contingencies. The company can be forced to adapt, and react better to such unforseen circumstances.

    But, in the short term, it won't help the company.

    A little introspection can't hurt. It hurts, but the company will grow stronger from this. ;)

    DrFill
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I doubt any of em' out work Wagoner. I read he puts in 18+ hours a day some days and has been doing it for years. :surprise:

    -Rocky
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Wagoner has a trifle more work to do, no? ;)

    DrFill
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Perhaps, but it seems Wagoner's company is on the upswing.

    Toyota, while not doing bad by any means seems to be expierencing some issues across it's company. I'm sure in time they will be able address them.

    Ghosn, well he went from being king of the mountain to well king of a mole hill, eh ? Based on what I've seen he was a bit over hyped as hindsight is 20/20 for most people. ;)

    -Rocky
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Over the past 5 years! They've both produced some of their best product ever. :shades:

    They're comers.

    I don't know what Ford is doin'. That dog don't bite! :sick:

    DrFill
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "I do not know if they are playing offense anymore ? It appears to me they are on the defensive because all their top executives that knew how torun the company right have jumped ship."

    Well maybe it was just time for a shake-up at Toyota I mean there is a reason for everything that some things happen for a reason.

    I think Toyota's branded product(minus Lexus and Scion) has gotten too predictable since 2003 and in some spots since 2000 maybe as well except for the 2007 Camry.
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    Well maybe it was just time for a shake-up at Toyota I mean there is a reason for everything that some things happen for a reason.

    I think Toyota's branded product(minus Lexus and Scion) has gotten too predictable since 2003 and in some spots since 2000 maybe as well except for the 2007 Camry.

    I agree... but I also think it could have something to do with the fact that Toyota pays its executives much less than other car companies pay their execs. Jim Press, as much as he appeared to love his job at Toyota, was there for a very long time...29, 30 years?? And when Chrysler came knockin', he wasn't about to "jump ship" when Toyota was on a roll, to take the helm at nearly orphaned Chrysler unless there was a very large pay increase involved. I don't remember the figures, but I read an article about him in Motor Trend several months ago, and it mentioned that his salary was a fraction of what Nissans Charles Ghosn was paid, for example. But his departure will not have a major impact on Toyota in the near future. The way Toyota is run extends all the way from the C-level guys to the laborors - it's a culture, not a business plan. It has been that way for years and is credited as the reason for their success. Toyota/Lexus/Scion will be fine without Press, but they might have to pony up a few extra dollars to retain top talent going forward. Who really knows. Maybe Press was just bored with being on top and wanted a new challenge - Chrysler would certainly fill the need.
    It could be a very good thing to get some fresh blood at Toyota's senior level. As much as I like them, I still find myself wondering at times why Toyota doesn't produce anything that feels as "fun" as a Honda or as serious about driving as a BMW. They have the talent, but all their cars have a certain disconnectedness about them. I have learned to trust and respect them over the years I have been driving, and I've never driven anything that impresses with quality like a Toyota, but I still find myself yearning for something with more soul from time to time. The "fun factor" in a Toyota seems more coincidental than deliberate. I hope the new leadership has a little more passion.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    First Meyer, then Press, and now Farley, all in just a few months...something brewing in the Toyota land?

    FWIW, I wish all three the best of luck in their future endeavors. Those are good people, as learned firsthand from talking with them at various events over the past few years. I trust their departures were for good reasons.

    Further, more indicator an unstable auto market, with executive shuffling going on all over...
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    Yeah, I'm curious to see what happens next. Who's Farley and what was his/her position? I hadn't heard that one. I just hope their successors can bring some passion to the company. As good as Press is, and as much as I respect his leadership, he wasn't passionate about cars.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Who's Farley and what was his/her position?

    1) oversaw the launch of Scion

    2) general manager of Lexus

    3) group vice president of marketing of Toyota

    He is now going to Ford as its group vice president of marketing
  • gotoyotagotoyota Member Posts: 280
    Thanks for the info. The one thing that is obvious in all of this... Toyota execs are clearly not "jumping ship" as some of the naysayers are so quick to "point out." Sure, Toyota has its struggles - and that is to be expected with the growth they have experienced over the last two decades - but they are on top. Ford, GM, and especially Chrysler are the ones bailing water. I don't mean that as an offense toward anyone, because I actually feel glad about GM's recent turnaround and I'm genuinely hopeful that all three of the Big Three are successful, but it's true that they have been the ones scrambling to redefine, reshape, reinvent, etc., to prevent further market share loss. It's apparent that they're putting on the full court press (no pun intended) to bring in new blood. Who better than the top US brass from Toyota/Lexus/Scion?
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    Well I don't recall GM, taking anyone from Toyota, Lexus, Scion, help their turn around plan. I'm not saying that Ford, Chrysler, didn't need the help. ;) I'm actually glad both (Ford, Chrysler) of them hired these ex Toyota, executives. ;) I personally would of liked Jim Press, to work for GM, but his skills are in need at Chrysler. :)

    -Rocky
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "I personally would of liked Jim Press, to work for GM, but his skills are in need at Chrysler."

    Yeah but GM already has Bob Lutz why would you want Jim Press for if you already have Lutz? Ironically, I think Jim Press is the best "Car guy" Chrysler has had since Lutz departed there back 7-8 years ago.

    Yeah your right though Jim Press's talents are needed at Chrysler I mean Chrysler's vehicle line-up is very weak right now with the exception of a couple models.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Toyota posted its first loss in 71 years. The quality if it's cars, while still outstanding, is slipping. The company's timing on new products, such as the Tundra, is no longer stellar. These setbacks raise the question of whether mighty Toyota is beatable. I say it is. Not any time soon, but eventually. As we learned from GM, no company is invulnerable.

    I can't predict, at this time, who may unseat Toyota. Maybe nobody will, but Volkswagen and Hyundai are candidates. Or maybe it will be an alliance of companies that hasn't been formed yet.
  • chetjchetj Member Posts: 324
    the lady who cuts my hair bought a rav-4 and i work at a D3 supplier..i have known her a long time and i told her i am replacing her w/ a asian hairdresser...she has a nice --- so i guess i can almost forgive her, she wouldnt buy GM cuz of govt warranty...ravs are assembled in japan i think...toyota will be king for awhile but car bizness is pretty competitive...i only buy from detroit cars assembled here, i dont like sending $$$ to asia
  • chetjchetj Member Posts: 324
    now that Gm dodge will rid themselves of legacy costs they should have some really good cars coming out...it will be real hard to find a bad rig by any company...GM and toyota have always hired each others engineers
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Rav4s are now built in Canada.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    that this thread got resurrected, as Toyota's efforts have plainly been fruitless since the last post two years ago. They were left with massive overstocks of Tundra, so that the '08s have rebates equal to 1/3 of their MSRP or more, and the only volume automakers down more in sales than Toyota were the domestics. Meanwhile, Honda continues its steady and seemingly unstoppable gain in market share, and VW and Hyundai are picking up market share left and right!

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I will still buy Cadillacs and Buicks as long as they still make them and make them in the United States.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    raise the question of whether mighty Toyota is beatable

    At the volume they sell of course they are.

    When you get big you're just not as nimble as when you were small.

    Say you're producing Camrys at a rate of, just tossing out a number, 100 per day. You find a defect, and it takes 5 days to find a fix. You have 500 cars you have to recall.

    I'm just using round number, bear with me.

    If Porsche produces just 5 cars a day, they'll fix the problem with only 25 cars to recall.

    There's just no way Toyota could maintain the quality level as they grew.

    The question is, now that the market has forced them back down, can they get that higher quality level back?
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Member Posts: 1,722
    Toyota said about a year ago that they were not happy with their quality. You can bet that the company that wrote the book on quality is working to improve it. That being said, it is still one of the best, depending on the data you look at.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    If they bring more design to the future like they have with the hot selling Venza and Lexus IS models, then their offensive looks promising. Whether or not they gain respect with the "drivers" crowd out there is up in the air though. An IS350 Coupe with a stick would make for a great start :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wonder, though, if the Venza is really bringing in any new buyers, or is it just cannibalizing the Highander, RAV4, and maybe even the Lexus RX.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Exactly. And IS the Venza, in fact, a hot-selling model? Or the IS? Now they will start to sell a $40-50K IS250/350 convertible. Not sure how many buyers that will find.

    But it seems that Highlander sales are down with the advent of the Venza, something I thought likely before the Venza was introduced.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It would be interesting to know what Venza owners traded in, and what they cross-shopped as well.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Venza on pace to sell 8,800 this year.

    Not a hot seller.
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