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2009-2011 cars came from the factory with this upgrade already installed. Whatever they applied was an upgrade,but not THIS upgrade. THIS upgrade just brings the 2006-2008 Civics up to the same (or functionally the same) software as the 2009-2011 models.
Honda (like all car manufacturers) upgrades their software constantly. This is easy to see in the 2000-2006 Insights because one of their computers was not reprogrammable - it had to be replaced. There are no less than nine different BCM computers out there for these cars.
So what you got was a smaller update.
Free advice, free of value.
Right now I'm only getting about half of the miles on a tank of gas compared to 6 months ago. My driving habits haven't changed a bit. I blame the car.
Maybe not in a fantasy world with no wind or hills, but in the real world where bursts of Torque are necessary to maintain highway speeds, the IMA does make a difference in overall economy.
I reported my problems and attempts to fix it on a Facebook page for HCH owners.
I speak to hundreds of Civic, Insight and Accord owners each month. How many do you speak to? I race in mpg races (and sometimes win). I teach people how to drive their cars economically - in person - on test drives at least once per week. Most are surprised when they pull 60mpg out of their Civic or 75 out of their Insight. If you never got over 40mpg in that car then either there is a mechanical problem, or you drive in a manner that is not economical.
You don't have to drive economically, just most hybrid owners do because they want to get big mpg numbers.
I agree, but the driver was stating that they had never gotten above 40 mpg in the first place. The loss of economy is definitely due to battery failure or due to the new programming, but it wasn't very good to begin with.
Bursts of torque are not necessary to maintain a steady highway speed with hills and wind. They are necessary if you are simply keeping up with traffic. What's the difference in time between traveling a steady pace and traveling lock-step with traffic? A few minutes per trip? Do the math.
Adjustments for wind and hills can be slow and gradual and not involve any assist at all. Think of laying on the assist being similar to kicking an automatic car (not a CVT) down a gear. You can accelerate just fine without the transmission kicking down. Likewise, you can accelerate your Civic gently without using any assist.
Lithium Ion or Lithium Polymer batteries are not better than NiMH, they are just smaller and lighter. NiMH can withstand much more abuse than Lithium. The BMS of a lithium battery will keep that battery properly balanced, but it is needed to run at all. If the NiMH batteries had a BMS, nobody would be posting in this thread.
The dealer is actually telling the truth (imagine that, an honest dealer). I'll explain below.
"I find this hard to believe because it is not using the batttery when it is not "assisting" is it?"
Here's what is going on. NiMH cells "self-discharge" automatically. That means that they lose a certain percentage of charge each week. The problem is that once the cells are no longer new, the rate of self discharge will be different from cell to cell. This means that over a few week or month period, one cell might lose 20% of its' charge while another loses 50% and another loses 80%. So what happens when you start to use it? The car drains the battery until one set of 12 cells (it looks at them in 12 cell groups) either passes below a minimum voltage as an average of the 12 cells, or one of the individual cells totally bottoms out at 0V and then reverses. At this point, the car detects it and issues a "recal" which a number of people here are experiencing.
The problem is that the car never charges above 80% (average) in order to increase the lifespan of the cells. So the full cells (slow self discharge) stay full, and the empty cells (fast self discharge) never get full.
As you use the battery, the car puts a proportionately heavier load on the empty cells than on the full ones. This accelerates the problem. After a while the pack tears itself apart as the empty cells are over stressed and the full ones sit doing nothing.
From 30 people (myself included) who have cars that have sat due to accident or other problems, we've been able to establish a rule that seems to hold true. "If a healthy battery is left to sit for 90 days or more, it will fail 8 month +/- 2 months after being put back into service." The battery didn't fail because it sat, it failed because it was used after it sat. If you had some way to charge it prior to using it, the problem would not have occurred.
Your car sat for months and then it died a while later. It wasn't a very healthy battery, so it failed even sooner than the 8 month adage.
"I purchased a used battery at that point, and alas 2 months later (and $750 later) it has failed again!"
Unfortunately, you took another battery that had been sitting for many months and repeated the same process with it. It most likely came from a wrecked car and had been sitting for six or more months.
I presume you are getting a P1447 error (2003-2004 Civic) or a P0A7F (2005-2011 Civic). The batteries CAN be repaired. They would temporarily respond to a full charging, but the damage has been done and they will continue to fail on you only a few days/weeks after charging. You'll have to fix them to get things working again.
Or pay the dealer...
OGRE: How come the Prius is not having these problems?
AFAIK, Hondas use about 60% of their battery's capacity. Prius's use about 40% (hence the better MPG for Honda). In addition, the Gen I Prius segments its' 228 cells into four smaller sub-modules which is far less than the 120 cells that Hondas do. The Gen - II+ Prius's have only 138 cells to break up into four groups. Toyotas also perform regular maintenance cycles.
So, they use the battery less and control it more tightly. They still die, but they stay balanced far longer.
That being said, the original US spec Prius batteries had a nasty tendency to leak and corrode the terminals. The original Japan spec Prius (1997-1999) had the same cells as Honda in a double pack of 240 cells.
Has this issue been brought to the attention of the California Air Resources Board (CARB?)
The TSB does contain this note:
this software update is needed even if the vehicle was repaired using Service Bulletin 09-058, Low-Charged Battery Causes Low Power When Accelerating. As with the previous software update, the new software increases the IMA battery rate of charge, which helps to prevent early battery deterioration." This does not have a black bar and is likely not a change from 10-034's original information.
New Transmission
Struts
Bearings
Transmission mount
Motor Mounts
Wiper Motor
Wiper linkage
Gas door cable and other stuff.
When the vehicle was purchased, used with 30000 miles I bought warranty from Universal Warranty and they covered everything without an argument. At 99734 miles the ima light came on with the battery failure key. The warranty had an option to exclude this part so I was stuck. The repair option with the dealer was 3000.00. I contacted Hybrid Revolt and they were going to meet me and exchange a battery pack for 1195. They were very cool. When that was being set up the dealer called me and stated that since I have a long repair history with them they contacted Honda and Honda agreed to fix it as a Goodwill Repair. They didn't charge me a dime! Kudos to Moon Township Honda for going to bat for me, Kudos to Universal Warranty for honoring everything they paid for without a hassle, Kudos to Hybrid Revolts willingness to meet me on the PA turnpike, and Kudos to Honda for fixing it for free. I won’t buy another Hybrid but I will buy another Honda at the same dealer! Who says customer service is dead? Not me!
Trying to blame this mileage issue on the driver is ridiculous!
I teach people how to drive their cars economically - in person - on test drives at least once per week.
So we now have full disclosure about your work in this field. 60mpg in an HCH? Really?
What you are doing on this thread is muddying the fact that Honda's second-generation hybrid Civic is a flop, a defective product that never performed to Honda's claimed fuel economy for the majority of its customers and has an IMA battery system that wears out prematurely.
To worsen matters, Honda has decided not to replace the batteries until they have failed completely and has instead imposed on us owners an "update" to the IMA firmware intended to prolong the battery system's life at the additional expense of fuel economy and the vehicle's ability to accelerate and maintain sufficient speed on the highway.
Email me privately and I'll send you some photos of odometers. 60 highway is doable for most people in a CVT gen1 civic. 63 in a MT. Driving conventionally (with traffic instead of the slow lane), 55mpg.
Does the battery wear out in the Gen 2s faster than it should, yes! Would replacing them all help? No. There are plenty of owners going through 2nd or even 3rd batteries. For those that drive infrequently, 5 batteries are not unheard of. If they changed them all now, the problem would just start all over again and there would be a huge number of Civics with failed batteries in 2015 with no warranties and zero resale value because they're all dropping dead at the same time.
Honda is TRYING to fix the problem, not just put an identical battery back in. The software changes SHOULD significantly increase the lifespan of the Gen2 batteries. The ones that are already gone will still fail and some of the marginal ones will return to health.
The problem is that the only solution to making the battery last longer is to protect it, which makes it unavailable under certain usage patterns (acceleration when almost empty) or significantly reduces fuel economy (keeping the battery from getting empty in the first place). Those who naturally drive without assist most of the time tend to keep their batteries full at no penalty to their mpg, and they therefore have full use of their (full) battery when they need it. That is why some people here are NOT experiencing any loss of economy or acceleration from the updates.
If you are experiencing a loss of mpg, you can try experimenting for a few days to see if changing you driving style will improve your mileage. Simply accelerate gently. I often tell people to imagine there is a raw egg taped to the accelerator and they should try not to break it. most people find that their morning commutes take only a couple minutes longer (I deal with lots of Beltway commuters) and that they pick up 5-10 mpg. The goal is to minimize the use of assist and to keep the tachometer revs down below 2500 when possible (2000 is better).
I'm not telling you to do anything. I'm not telling you that you drive "wrong". This may not even apply to you. I'm just suggesting that you try it. If you do and you are successful, you'll have your old car back WITH the battery-life extending software.
And remember that 75mph will reduce mpg by 10%-25% in ANY car when compared to 65mph due to wind resistance, and that for a 30 mile commute, 75 mph will only save 4 minutes over 65mph. Wind resistance starts to become a factor over 50mph and gets progressively worse as speed increases.
When I owned my Civic hybrid, I was driving consciously to maximize fuel economy. The performance and the fuel efficiency of my car deteriorated when the batteries began discharging frequently and it got worse when I did the software update. My driving style did not materially change except when I felt unsafe, such as having no battery when I was trying to turn left against traffic. I did this for four months and complained to Honda and then sold it at a loss. Maybe the batteries would have revived after a few more months of frustrating and stressful driving but I had had it.
The reality is driving especially in the city requires adequate and predictable acceleration and the Civic's crappy batteries and Honda's software update has made them unsafe and unreliable for a significant share of drivers.
Just accelerate more gently does not come close to explaining 33 mpg on my 2008 HCH, which is where I am now, after receiving the firmware "update."
Honda needs to fix their problems, or face continued damage to their brand reputation. I have seen no indication from Honda that they will even admit to having a problem.
I refused the IMA update last July, are they going to snick it in this time when I bring my car for the recall repair?
Are they still installing the update?
Your other option would be to be prepared to replace or recondition them and this could happen after the warranty expires. Even if you are within the warranty period, there is no guarantee Honda will pony up as we all know.
what was your mileage when you had the IMA light turn on and subsequent replacement of IMA?
i drive mostly freeway and can utilize the CA carpool lanes for another 3 months. that's how i hypermile it. i get mid to high 40's in summer. but i get low 40's in the winter. yes, formulation is one thing, but the drain is the big culprit.
then there's the lack of power issue. i showed that acceleration with ima vs without ima (during battery drain) was significant - about 3 seconds difference from 0-40 (ok, not official, but works to show the point). just imagine that you had to pass a semi, or get on an inclined on-ramp (like i did in Vacaville). well, you all can imagine what goes through your mind when you see cars coming at you at 70mph, let alone 75-80mph when you can only muster 40-50. so for anyone to say that there isn't a difference, i welcome you to drive my car and put your kids in the back and tell me that there isn't a problem. it's easy for anyone to say that someone else's car has no issues, but when it comes to your own life, you would tell a different story. you can't comment unless you've been in our shoes (car).
This weekend, while I was cruising at about 40 mph, the stupid IMA would assist when I would go downhill and charge when I'd go uphill.
Since the car was on cruise control, nobody can blame my "driving habits" for this nonsense.
i'm hoping that my light pops up before then. only 45k left before i lose my warranty. :mad:
by the way, did your car exhibit the daily drain or even multiple drains in a day?
Yes. It started well before the IMA light came on. It would be charged up at night and in the morning it would re-calibrate and recharge. The car also began starting off the 12 volt system instead of the IMA. This all happened before the IMA light ever came on. After the IMA software update the light never came on again, even though I continued to have the same problems, even though not quite as bad. The car continued to get less gas milage and had less pick-up. After the battery was replaced, the car was back to normal with gas milage averaging between 45-50 mpg and the pick-up was good again.
actually got my BBB decision just yesterday and they denied my claims. they quoted Honda's manual as already stating that the battery "may" drain. so that in itself is Honda's over encompassing BS excuse. also had filed with NHSTB about 4 months ago. they sent a questionnaire, but haven't heard anything more from them.
been posting on FB as well regarding my problems and BBB updates.
however, there will no recourse for Honda since they haven't anything to gain from giving everyone new batteries. their software has degraded our mileage. the battery drain is normal as they call it. their comments about driving habits are insulting. i mean, what do we think they're going to do?
it was actually kind of a slap in the face when the Honda rep said to the arbitrator in my hearing with regard to the software change. "these things that are being described were things that we informed about regarding the software change." wait a second, yes, you informed us, but you also said that if i didn't do my upgrade, you will not honor the warranty. so you forced us to upgrade it in the first place.
just circular logic from a bunch of denying goons